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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 8, 2016 8:40:00 GMT 1
This was all before my time, and reading the comments has educated me somewhat in the details, but I struggle to get past that it all began from fans trying to get in the stadium with no tickets. If that didn't happen none of the following incidents would have. Can't believe after all these years the Suns proven to be lying allegations still get credence. As i recall the Taylor report back in 1989 debunked the theory a minority of fans without tickets were to blame. Wasn't just the sun mate .. it was the clowns who's neglect and stupidity had led to the deaths of nearly 100 people .. that's why we are still here .. because of the lies and the cover ups .. if the original inquiry had done it's job we wouldn't be here .. not that you can educate the pork on here who have made their minds up based on the original crap as opposed to anything to do with the truth
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 8:45:54 GMT 1
This was all before my time, and reading the comments has educated me somewhat in the details, but I struggle to get past that it all began from fans trying to get in the stadium with no tickets. If that didn't happen none of the following incidents would have. Exactly, but there's some unwritten law amongst scousers and football fans, where we're supposed to ignore the fact that it was fans pouring in without tickets which caused the crush, made possible by terrible crowd control from the police.
In myth and legend, it all has to be 100% the police's fault. Anyone who dares suggest otherwise gets shouted down.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 8, 2016 8:54:38 GMT 1
Read the documents Marcus ... Not the Sun ... For what it's worth ive said that I think all of us from the eighties have a bit of blood on our hands. including the Liverpool fans that day... But people have made judgements on here based on historical lies.. And that's why 27 years later we are here... Because of the lies . The Hillsborough disaster was a tragedy that needn't have happened. It wasn't caused by football fans.. It was caused by terrible terrible mismanagement, compounded by lies slurs and cover ups... Which you will see in the report... If you choose to read it.. Which you won't... Cos you are still masturbating over your copy of the sun which described drunken scousers pissing over dead bodies
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Post by Henry Mcgee on Apr 8, 2016 9:21:39 GMT 1
The police acted with negligence that day, there is no other verdict available here if you ask me. Seems to me SYP are incompetent, its not the first time they have faced controversy. the police acted to an ongoing and changing large public order situation in the way that they did at that particular time and period in policing football matches. since that time and across most things in this country , 'hindsight' has become a a legitimate weapon to use after the fact and the way we do things now has been allowed to be presented 'against' people and organisations who were using 'up to date methods' at that time.. one 'expert witness' at this enquiry actually admitted that he and 4 others took in 'real time' , over 4 hours to work out their 'best scenario' of dealing with the unfolding public order problems on that fateful day.. remember he and them 'knew' roughly what was going to happen beforehand and they had access to all the cctv, radio messages etc etc etc..they also changed vital decisions after they also proved to be fateful in the mock up scenario and finally got a better 'outcome'.. They were also able to 'discount' many of the 'messages' they recieved which had orginally added to the confusion in a very confusing ongoing situation, which made their 'job' much easier. the inquest should solely have looked at the cover up afterwards, the public order situation was waiting to happen given previous problems at these games and the outcome on this day changed policing at football and the police attitude to 'running' football matches for ever.. mistakes were made at every public order situation and probably still are, its the nature of the 'beast'. Its very much an ongoing learning thing but like it or not they are very 'efficient' at it now. looking at the cover up only would have been difficult as its clear the cover up was from on high, not a few senior police officers and definitely not those in charge on the day who have since been 'left out to dry anyway', but they should have really tried to get as far up as they could. They have not done so and a few middle ranked officers will probably carry the whole can even though it was clear then and even clearer now that they did not have the authority or the power to 'alter' as much as appears to have been done.. The inquest and various hearings have imo been commisioned to get some blame apportioned to the 'right' people and to try and 'make it go away' before the spineless and wholly deceitful cover up and the major instigators and players in that black mark on our history really gets investigated properly.. Absolutely bang on.
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Post by Stavros on Apr 8, 2016 10:46:35 GMT 1
Can't believe after all these years the Suns proven to be lying allegations still get credence. As i recall the Taylor report back in 1989 debunked the theory a minority of fans without tickets were to blame. Wasn't just the sun mate .. it was the clowns who's neglect and stupidity had led to the deaths of nearly 100 people .. that's why we are still here .. because of the lies and the cover ups .. if the original inquiry had done it's job we wouldn't be here .. not that you can educate the pork on here who have made their minds up based on the original crap as opposed to anything to do with the truth Have you made your mind up then? It's one thing to debunk stories about thieving and peeing on the injured. That doesn't necessarily mean there weren't too many fans there in the first place. That may get announced in the verdict, but it might very well not. Let's see. If they come to the conclusion that the number of fans there was equal to the number of tickets sold I'll bow down. It certainly wasn't the case at the 2005 European Cup final where a load of them still stormed the turnstiles with blue bits of paper. I hate the Sun as much as you mate, as I hope you've noticed in the past. And I am dying for the establishment to be named and shamed just as much as you too. All the way to the top, not just police. But I'm a long way from being convinced that LFC fans can just be absolved. Like any club they've got loads of decent fans and loads of wankers who were there. Is it so vile to ask the question whether the wankers caused a problem for the decent ones?
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Post by Boaty McBoatface on Apr 8, 2016 11:46:10 GMT 1
Wasn't just the sun mate .. it was the clowns who's neglect and stupidity had led to the deaths of nearly 100 people .. that's why we are still here .. because of the lies and the cover ups .. if the original inquiry had done it's job we wouldn't be here .. not that you can educate the pork on here who have made their minds up based on the original crap as opposed to anything to do with the truth Have you made your mind up then? It's one thing to debunk stories about thieving and peeing on the injured. That doesn't necessarily mean there weren't too many fans there in the first place. That may get announced in the verdict, but it might very well not. Let's see. If they come to the conclusion that the number of fans there was equal to the number of tickets sold I'll bow down. It certainly wasn't the case at the 2005 European Cup final where a load of them still stormed the turnstiles with blue bits of paper. I hate the Sun as much as you mate, as I hope you've noticed in the past. And I am dying for the establishment to be named and shamed just as much as you too. All the way to the top, not just police. But I'm a long way from being convinced that LFC fans can just be absolved. Like any club they've got loads of decent fans and loads of wankers who were there. Is it so vile to ask the question whether the wankers caused a problem for the decent ones? Don't see how the number of fans turning up has anything to do with apportionment of blame. Big games attract big numbers of supporters, with or without tickets. Like I said in my earlier post, the police failed (through total incompetence) to set up checkpoints before the gates, which they had done in previous years, which would have prevented the whole problem. And then when they could see fans being crushed to death, the ones in the ground did absolutely buggar all about it until it was too late. I've read the testimonies, I've heard one guy who lost his son at the game calling out to a policeman on the other side of the fence that his son was dying, the copper just wasn't interested, and there were clearly hundreds of others struggling desparately.
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Post by Stavros on Apr 8, 2016 12:11:34 GMT 1
Have you made your mind up then? It's one thing to debunk stories about thieving and peeing on the injured. That doesn't necessarily mean there weren't too many fans there in the first place. That may get announced in the verdict, but it might very well not. Let's see. If they come to the conclusion that the number of fans there was equal to the number of tickets sold I'll bow down. It certainly wasn't the case at the 2005 European Cup final where a load of them still stormed the turnstiles with blue bits of paper. I hate the Sun as much as you mate, as I hope you've noticed in the past. And I am dying for the establishment to be named and shamed just as much as you too. All the way to the top, not just police. But I'm a long way from being convinced that LFC fans can just be absolved. Like any club they've got loads of decent fans and loads of wankers who were there. Is it so vile to ask the question whether the wankers caused a problem for the decent ones? Don't see how the number of fans turning up has anything to do with apportionment of blame. Big games attract big numbers of supporters, with or without tickets. Like I said in my earlier post, the police failed (through total incompetence) to set up checkpoints before the gates, which they had done in previous years, which would have prevented the whole problem. And then when they could see fans being crushed to death, the ones in the ground did absolutely buggar all about it until it was too late. I've read the testimonies, I've heard one guy who lost his son at the game calling out to a policeman on the other side of the fence that his son was dying, the copper just wasn't interested, and there were clearly hundreds of others struggling desparately. So in other words 'of course thousands of us are going to storm the turnstiles. It's the police's job to deal with that, and if something goes wrong it's 100% their fault, not ours one iota.' That's like starting a fire and blaming the fire brigade for not putting it out quickly enough. I'm with you on the police. They got it wrong either through ineptitude or downright malice. The jury will tell us which. But who set the ball rolling in the first place?
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Post by Boaty McBoatface on Apr 8, 2016 12:24:36 GMT 1
Don't see how the number of fans turning up has anything to do with apportionment of blame. Big games attract big numbers of supporters, with or without tickets. Like I said in my earlier post, the police failed (through total incompetence) to set up checkpoints before the gates, which they had done in previous years, which would have prevented the whole problem. And then when they could see fans being crushed to death, the ones in the ground did absolutely buggar all about it until it was too late. I've read the testimonies, I've heard one guy who lost his son at the game calling out to a policeman on the other side of the fence that his son was dying, the copper just wasn't interested, and there were clearly hundreds of others struggling desparately. So in other words 'of course thousands of us are going to storm the turnstiles. It's the police's job to deal with that, and if something goes wrong it's 100% their fault, not ours one iota.' That's like starting a fire and blaming the fire brigade for not putting it out quickly enough. I'm with you on the police. They got it wrong either through ineptitude or downright malice. The jury will tell us which. But who set the ball rolling in the first place? That would be the police again, as it was they who decided that Liverpool would have the much smaller Leppings Lane end, despite having far more support than Forest, to make their life easier in terms of direction fans would be coming from. I just don't accept that the police can escape anything but full responsibility for what happened. This was not the first time a big crowd had turned up at the ground; in fact the year earlier Liverpool played in the semi-final, coincidentally also against Forest, and were again given the Leppings Lane end. The police knew exactly what to expect but totally failed to manage the situation, displaying not even the slightest degree of competence. I repeat my analogy from my earlier post: It's like taking a toddler for a walk, letting him walk into a busy road, then blaming the toddler for getting run over.
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Post by Stavros on Apr 8, 2016 12:38:27 GMT 1
So in other words 'of course thousands of us are going to storm the turnstiles. It's the police's job to deal with that, and if something goes wrong it's 100% their fault, not ours one iota.' That's like starting a fire and blaming the fire brigade for not putting it out quickly enough. I'm with you on the police. They got it wrong either through ineptitude or downright malice. The jury will tell us which. But who set the ball rolling in the first place? That would be the police again, as it was they who decided that Liverpool would have the much smaller Leppings Lane end, despite having far more support than Forest, to make their life easier in terms of direction fans would be coming from. I just don't accept that the police can escape anything but full responsibility for what happened. This was not the first time a big crowd had turned up at the ground; in fact the year earlier Liverpool played in the semi-final, coincidentally also against Forest, and were again given the Leppings Lane end. The police knew exactly what to expect but totally failed to manage the situation, displaying not even the slightest degree of competence. I repeat my analogy from my earlier post: It's like taking a toddler for a walk, letting him walk into a busy road, then blaming the toddler for getting run over. There were good and bad fans there that day. For 27 years there seems to have been a desire to avoid that. You either blame LFC fans or you don't, and if you do then you're disrespecting the victims. You're not. It's perfectly reasonable to question some fans while maintaining respect for the victims. I think your analogy is wrong because we're not talking about toddlers that can't foresee the effects of their actions. Hundreds or more grown men refusing to accept their non-attendance at a game when they haven't got a ticket. Sat round a table 'tell you what we'll do lads. We'll go anyway and force our way in somehow. It'll be alright'. Well it wasn't alright.That's not the action of a toddler. The police ballsed it up and the victims, God rest their soul, did nothing wrong. But why shouldn't it be ok to say that those fans who wouldn't take 'no' for an answer at the gate bear some responsibility? Even 1%? I can't have it, sorry.
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Post by Boaty McBoatface on Apr 8, 2016 12:48:53 GMT 1
That would be the police again, as it was they who decided that Liverpool would have the much smaller Leppings Lane end, despite having far more support than Forest, to make their life easier in terms of direction fans would be coming from. I just don't accept that the police can escape anything but full responsibility for what happened. This was not the first time a big crowd had turned up at the ground; in fact the year earlier Liverpool played in the semi-final, coincidentally also against Forest, and were again given the Leppings Lane end. The police knew exactly what to expect but totally failed to manage the situation, displaying not even the slightest degree of competence. I repeat my analogy from my earlier post: It's like taking a toddler for a walk, letting him walk into a busy road, then blaming the toddler for getting run over. There were good and bad fans there that day. For 27 years there seems to have been a desire to avoid that. You either blame LFC fans or you don't, and if you do then you're disrespecting the victims. You're not. It's perfectly reasonable to question some fans while maintaining respect for the victims. I think your analogy is wrong because we're not talking about toddlers that can't foresee the effects of their actions. Hundreds or more grown men refusing to accept their non-attendance at a game when they haven't got a ticket. Sat round a table 'tell you what we'll do lads. We'll go anyway and force our way in somehow. It'll be alright'. Well it wasn't alright.That's not the action of a toddler. The police ballsed it up and the victims, God rest their soul, did nothing wrong. But why shouldn't it be ok to say that those fans who wouldn't take 'no' for an answer at the gate bear some responsibility? Even 1%? I can't have it, sorry. Are you seriously saying that the people that came through the gate (the gate that the police opened) foresaw that their actions would result in the deaths of 96 people? My analogy is sound, neither could forsee what would happen, whereas the police (or the adult responsible for the toddler) should have.
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Post by Stavros on Apr 8, 2016 13:43:23 GMT 1
There were good and bad fans there that day. For 27 years there seems to have been a desire to avoid that. You either blame LFC fans or you don't, and if you do then you're disrespecting the victims. You're not. It's perfectly reasonable to question some fans while maintaining respect for the victims. I think your analogy is wrong because we're not talking about toddlers that can't foresee the effects of their actions. Hundreds or more grown men refusing to accept their non-attendance at a game when they haven't got a ticket. Sat round a table 'tell you what we'll do lads. We'll go anyway and force our way in somehow. It'll be alright'. Well it wasn't alright.That's not the action of a toddler. The police ballsed it up and the victims, God rest their soul, did nothing wrong. But why shouldn't it be ok to say that those fans who wouldn't take 'no' for an answer at the gate bear some responsibility? Even 1%? I can't have it, sorry. Are you seriously saying that the people that came through the gate (the gate that the police opened) foresaw that their actions would result in the deaths of 96 people? My analogy is sound, neither could forsee what would happen, whereas the police (or the adult responsible for the toddler) should have. Come on mate. Be fair. You know fine well I'm not saying that they KNEW something was going to happen. I'm saying people have some responsibility for their own actions. The police (who I'm not sticking up for in this case) are an emergency service. That doesn't absolve people from blame if they do things which MAY cause an emergency. Here's a question for you: 'Do you think an adult should understand why, in the days of standing or otherwise, the number of tickets printed for an FA Cup semi-final is not limitless?'
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Post by Boaty McBoatface on Apr 8, 2016 15:48:41 GMT 1
Are you seriously saying that the people that came through the gate (the gate that the police opened) foresaw that their actions would result in the deaths of 96 people? My analogy is sound, neither could forsee what would happen, whereas the police (or the adult responsible for the toddler) should have. Come on mate. Be fair. You know fine well I'm not saying that they KNEW something was going to happen. I'm saying people have some responsibility for their own actions. The police (who I'm not sticking up for in this case) are an emergency service. That doesn't absolve people from blame if they do things which MAY cause an emergency. Here's a question for you: 'Do you think an adult should understand why, in the days of standing or otherwise, the number of tickets printed for an FA Cup semi-final is not limitless?' OK so now you're saying that they didn't KNOW something was going to happen, but they are still somehow not absolved from blame. And this is because an adult should know that the number of tickets available is not limitless. Like I said before, large numbers of fans turned up to big games whether or not they had tickets. Why did they do this? Various reasons, but the only thing of revelance is that the police were fully aware there would be large numbers of fans on the day, some of whom would be ticketless. So when these fans (who the police have not stopped previously at checkpoints to check they actually have tickets) see the police open the gates to the terraces, it doesn't take a genius to realise what is going to happen. Do you blame the people that went through the gates, (some of whom probably did have tickets anyway) or the people responsible for controlling the gates and charged with keeping order for a huge football match? I have read testimonies from Liverpool fans who had gone to the semi-final the year before (at the same ground) and were amazed that checkpoints had not been set up for this game, and were rightly concerned there would be problems controlling the fans. I've read a few books about Hillsborough (believe it or not, I was there just a week before, in the Leppings Lane end watching Wednesday v QPR) and my mind is pretty much set in stone on this matter, there is no way anyone will persuade me that the fans that went through that gate were to blame for what happened.
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mallyb
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by mallyb on Apr 8, 2016 16:19:41 GMT 1
Come on mate. Be fair. You know fine well I'm not saying that they KNEW something was going to happen. I'm saying people have some responsibility for their own actions. The police (who I'm not sticking up for in this case) are an emergency service. That doesn't absolve people from blame if they do things which MAY cause an emergency. Here's a question for you: 'Do you think an adult should understand why, in the days of standing or otherwise, the number of tickets printed for an FA Cup semi-final is not limitless?' OK so now you're saying that they didn't KNOW something was going to happen, but they are still somehow not absolved from blame. And this is because an adult should know that the number of tickets available is not limitless. Like I said before, large numbers of fans turned up to big games whether or not they had tickets. Why did they do this? Various reasons, but the only thing of revelance is that the police were fully aware there would be large numbers of fans on the day, some of whom would be ticketless. So when these fans (who the police have not stopped previously at checkpoints to check they actually have tickets) see the police open the gates to the terraces, it doesn't take a genius to realise what is going to happen. Do you blame the people that went through the gates, (some of whom probably did have tickets anyway) or the people responsible for controlling the gates and charged with keeping order for a huge football match? I have read testimonies from Liverpool fans who had gone to the semi-final the year before (at the same ground) and were amazed that checkpoints had not been set up for this game, and were rightly concerned there would be problems controlling the fans. I've read a few books about Hillsborough (believe it or not, I was there just a week before, in the Leppings Lane end watching Wednesday v QPR) and my mind is pretty much set in stone on this matter, there is no way anyone will persuade me that the fans that went through that gate were to blame for what happened. Good job you're not on the jury then.
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Post by Stavros on Apr 8, 2016 16:28:34 GMT 1
Come on mate. Be fair. You know fine well I'm not saying that they KNEW something was going to happen. I'm saying people have some responsibility for their own actions. The police (who I'm not sticking up for in this case) are an emergency service. That doesn't absolve people from blame if they do things which MAY cause an emergency. Here's a question for you: 'Do you think an adult should understand why, in the days of standing or otherwise, the number of tickets printed for an FA Cup semi-final is not limitless?' OK so now you're saying that they didn't KNOW something was going to happen, but they are still somehow not absolved from blame. And this is because an adult should know that the number of tickets available is not limitless. Like I said before, large numbers of fans turned up to big games whether or not they had tickets. Why did they do this? Various reasons, but the only thing of revelance is that the police were fully aware there would be large numbers of fans on the day, some of whom would be ticketless. So when these fans (who the police have not stopped previously at checkpoints to check they actually have tickets) see the police open the gates to the terraces, it doesn't take a genius to realise what is going to happen. Do you blame the people that went through the gates, (some of whom probably did have tickets anyway) or the people responsible for controlling the gates and charged with keeping order for a huge football match? I have read testimonies from Liverpool fans who had gone to the semi-final the year before (at the same ground) and were amazed that checkpoints had not been set up for this game, and were rightly concerned there would be problems controlling the fans. I've read a few books about Hillsborough (believe it or not, I was there just a week before, in the Leppings Lane end watching Wednesday v QPR) and my mind is pretty much set in stone on this matter, there is no way anyone will persuade me that the fans that went through that gate were to blame for what happened. I think it's pretty clear what I'm saying, and for the second time it's not what you say I'm saying. Obviously they didn't know something bad would happen that day. However there is such a thing as personal responsibility. I'll answer my question for you...'yes they know that they print 'x' number because there is only room for so many people.' Once you make the decision to disregard that you are accepting that your presence, and that of many more will result in overcrowding. That's the call of the individual in the first instance. I say again, the presence of emergency services doesn't preclude members of the public from doing what is necessary to prevent emergencies. There is individual responsibility there. As for the police I agree with you 100% that the were shite and made loads of mistakes. I've never once said otherwise. You seem to be mistaking me for someone who wants to just blame the fans and protect the police. You've been clear, along with others, that you believe the blame lies entirely with the police. Others might even take the entirely contrary view, as the Sun did, but that's a bloody stupid position to hold. My position is that the answer lies between, albeit the vast majority of blame is on the police side. But a public enquiry that changes the percentage of blame on LFC fans from 100% to 0% stinks to me of exchanging one whitewash for another. If my daughter had died there I'd want the truth, even if meant that fellow fans of my own team were implicated. What responsibility does such a father have to fellow LFC fans? I already feel like I'm repeating myself a bit here. I understand your position and I hope now you understand mine. Let's leave it at that?
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Post by Boaty McBoatface on Apr 8, 2016 16:48:06 GMT 1
OK so now you're saying that they didn't KNOW something was going to happen, but they are still somehow not absolved from blame. And this is because an adult should know that the number of tickets available is not limitless. Like I said before, large numbers of fans turned up to big games whether or not they had tickets. Why did they do this? Various reasons, but the only thing of revelance is that the police were fully aware there would be large numbers of fans on the day, some of whom would be ticketless. So when these fans (who the police have not stopped previously at checkpoints to check they actually have tickets) see the police open the gates to the terraces, it doesn't take a genius to realise what is going to happen. Do you blame the people that went through the gates, (some of whom probably did have tickets anyway) or the people responsible for controlling the gates and charged with keeping order for a huge football match? I have read testimonies from Liverpool fans who had gone to the semi-final the year before (at the same ground) and were amazed that checkpoints had not been set up for this game, and were rightly concerned there would be problems controlling the fans. I've read a few books about Hillsborough (believe it or not, I was there just a week before, in the Leppings Lane end watching Wednesday v QPR) and my mind is pretty much set in stone on this matter, there is no way anyone will persuade me that the fans that went through that gate were to blame for what happened. I think it's pretty clear what I'm saying, and for the second time it's not what you say I'm saying. Obviously they didn't know something bad would happen that day. However there is such a thing as personal responsibility. I'll answer my question for you...'yes they know that they print 'x' number because there is only room for so many people.' Once you make the decision to disregard that you are accepting that your presence, and that of many more will result in overcrowding. That's the call of the individual in the first instance. I say again, the presence of emergency services doesn't preclude members of the public from doing what is necessary to prevent emergencies. There is individual responsibility there. As for the police I agree with you 100% that the were shite and made loads of mistakes. I've never once said otherwise. You seem to be mistaking me for someone who wants to just blame the fans and protect the police. You've been clear, along with others, that you believe the blame lies entirely with the police. Others might even take the entirely contrary view, as the Sun did, but that's a bloody stupid position to hold. My position is that the answer lies between, albeit the vast majority of blame is on the police side. But a public enquiry that changes the percentage of blame on LFC fans from 100% to 0% stinks to me of exchanging one whitewash for another. If my daughter had died there I'd want the truth, even if meant that fellow fans of my own team were implicated. What responsibility does such a father have to fellow LFC fans? I already feel like I'm repeating myself a bit here. I understand your position and I hope now you understand mine. Let's leave it at that? Well we could get into a legal debate about causation and liability, but suffice to say I think a court would agree that the police owed a duty of care to the people in the stand, and they totally failed in that duty. Did fans who walked through the gate owe a similar duty of care? I can't see how they did, given the police opened the gate and let them through. I forgot to respond about your point that the police are an emergency service. They are sometimes, but here they were there primarily to police the match and the surrounding area. Just to clarify, I am definitely not suggesting you are blaming the fans totally, if you were I wouldn't bother wasting my time debating with you, and I do recognise you are apportioning most of the blame to the police. I note your point about how you might feel if you were personally caught up in this through a close relative being involved, but even putting myself in that position, I still don't think my views would change. OK, we both understand our positions, which are almost agreed! So happy to leave it there.
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Post by thrice on Apr 8, 2016 22:35:09 GMT 1
Any lies were comprehensively & officially debunked within a year of the tragedy by the Taylor Report that clearly established that the police were at fault for their failure to control the crowd.
The justice sought cannot be about the truth because it has been known officially for 26 years for anybody bothered to read it.
It seems to me that the justice sought is about nailing somebody for the events (police & emergency services) & I for one am uneasy with that, but the jury will decide.
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Post by morleyterrier on Apr 8, 2016 23:06:25 GMT 1
Look the police and the establishment were entirely and completely at fault that day. 100%. 200% if there was such a thing.
There are no mitigating circumstances and nobody can make any remotely valid point around how prior events led to what unfolded or indeed could have avoided what unfolded that fateful day.
So there we go, that's that sorted. Let's all move the fuck on (till the next enquiry that is).
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mozz72
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Post by mozz72 on Apr 9, 2016 1:01:40 GMT 1
A lot of great judicial minds seem to be on here.. Can anyone enlighten me to who's fault the ibrox stampede tragedy was to blame .. sorry if I've offended anyone connected
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mozz72
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Post by mozz72 on Apr 9, 2016 1:16:42 GMT 1
And btw I think the south Yorkshire Police have a great deal to answer for for shameless cover ups
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 10:05:12 GMT 1
Any lies were comprehensively & officially debunked within a year of the tragedy by the Taylor Report that clearly established that the police were at fault for their failure to control the crowd. The justice sought cannot be about the truth because it has been known officially for 26 years for anybody bothered to read it. It seems to me that the justice sought is about nailing somebody for the events (police & emergency services) & I for one am uneasy with that, but the jury will decide. The coroner's enquiry as a major source of information for the Taylor report only covered a limited timeframe. It has been established that highly significant events occurred outside that timeframe and the extent of the police cover-up is inextricably linked with both that timeframe & it would appear perpetuated fraud.
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Post by thrice on Apr 9, 2016 10:28:48 GMT 1
Any lies were comprehensively & officially debunked within a year of the tragedy by the Taylor Report that clearly established that the police were at fault for their failure to control the crowd. The justice sought cannot be about the truth because it has been known officially for 26 years for anybody bothered to read it. It seems to me that the justice sought is about nailing somebody for the events (police & emergency services) & I for one am uneasy with that, but the jury will decide. The coroner's enquiry as a major source of information for the Taylor report only covered a limited timeframe. It has been established that highly significant events occurred outside that timeframe and the extent of the police cover-up is inextricably linked with both that timeframe & it would appear perpetuated fraud. The jury will decide on that. The reason given for the limited timeframe for the coroner's enquiry (who had to work on an unprecedented loss of life) seems reasonable to me when you place that decision in context. I doubt that was even the decision of the police let alone that it was in any way made to assist a cover up. What are the police accused of covering up that has not already been established?
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 9, 2016 11:05:23 GMT 1
Look the police and the establishment were entirely and completely at fault that day. 100%. 200% if there was such a thing. There are no mitigating circumstances and nobody can make any remotely valid point around how prior events led to what unfolded or indeed could have avoided what unfolded that fateful day. So there we go, that's that sorted. Let's all move the fuck on (till the next enquiry that is). today the police are at fault, followed closely by social services. personal responsibility got lost before hillsborough and has never been recovered.. a relatively small amount of people are now 'responsible' for huge numbers of others who 'just cant cope or just cant be expected to cope or make sensible, rational decisions for themselves'.. Its no longer your fault, its somebody else to blame for 'letting you down'... A few police officers will be made fully responsible for this and for the aftermath. It will appease the blame culture even though most sensible people would know, deep down, that there were most certainly many other factors on that day and since that are just ignored. We move on? or do we? probably not much..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 11:30:53 GMT 1
The coroner's enquiry as a major source of information for the Taylor report only covered a limited timeframe. It has been established that highly significant events occurred outside that timeframe and the extent of the police cover-up is inextricably linked with both that timeframe & it would appear perpetuated fraud. The jury will decide on that. The reason given for the limited timeframe for the coroner's enquiry (who had to work on an unprecedented loss of life) seems reasonable to me when you place that decision in context. I doubt that was even the decision of the police let alone that it was in any way made to assist a cover up. What are the police accused of covering up that has not already been established? Adhering to an arbitrary timeframe in the light of evidence of significant events outside the timeframe is illogical. I would not suggest the timeframe was to assist the cover-up, but it appears it facilitated it. As you say, the jury will decide; including the culpability of the police. I work in a professional capacity and professionals are responsible for everything within their remit; it is a privilege that comes with unavoidable responsibility.
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Post by workshyfop on Apr 26, 2016 11:05:58 GMT 1
Anyone following this? I just hope that the families can find some peace after all these years. RIP the 96.
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Wingman
Mental Health Support Group
Posts: 3,200
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Post by Wingman on Apr 26, 2016 11:17:34 GMT 1
Anyone following this? I just hope that the families can find some peace after all these years. RIP the 96. Spot on. A heartbreaking time in the history of the country, not just for football or even sport for that matter. I truly hope the right verdict is given today and those who have passed, either as a result of the day or families since, can have peace at last. It's been too long. RIP the 96. God bless you all.
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buckers
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by buckers on Apr 26, 2016 11:17:44 GMT 1
Verdict - unlawfully killed
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Post by morrisraspass on Apr 26, 2016 11:25:13 GMT 1
Justice at last. Tragic that's it's taken this long; hopefully some sort of closure for the families who can now get some peace.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 11:45:35 GMT 1
honestly, I dont believe anyone in their right mind(or who was there or who has been in a crowd situation) blamed the people at the front who died, of anything other than being unfortunate enough to be there.
the other factors involved are very similar to a number of large events held then and before then where similar circumstances occurred but they didnt end in tragedy.
bad decisions were made(in hindsight) in a number of incidents but by the grace of god or something else, probably just luck, nothing bad happened.
The ground wasnt right, the ticketing wasnt right, the numbers allowed in were nowhere near right or safe and the large numbers turning up at once made everything worse. That was a usual scenario for big football games at the time.
somebody made a decision and the events took over.
what wont be addressed is the FAs involvement in the organisation and running of these games and more importantly the cover up from 'on high' after it. A few police officers will take the blame and the real power and influence behind staging a big game very poorly and then ordering the cover up will walk away unblemished.
It is somewhat dangerous to state that large crowds of people have no responsibility for their own actions. But that was always going to be the case here, eventually.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 12:03:21 GMT 1
Anyone who follows David Conn can't help but have been moved by his coverage over the past 2 years.
Mistakes can happen, bad calls in the heat of the moment can happen and, in the context of a public order operation at a match in the 80s (with the state the game was in) a horrendous series of mistakes were clearly made.
The cover up that followed orchestrated by Thatcher and her boot boys (the government, the SYP, the right wing press) sought to smear the dead, ideologically destroy the 'working man's game', castigate the socialist North West and a city ruled by Hatton and Militant. That was unforgivable.
May everybody involved - from those who created such a strategy to those who leaned on young PC's to collaborate statements - all go to hell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 12:13:04 GMT 1
honestly, I dont believe anyone in their right mind(or who was there or who has been in a crowd situation) blamed the people at the front who died, of anything other than being unfortunate enough to be there. the other factors involved are very similar to a number of large events held then and before then where similar circumstances occurred but they didnt end in tragedy. bad decisions were made(in hindsight) in a number of incidents but by the grace of god or something else, probably just luck, nothing bad happened. The ground wasnt right, the ticketing wasnt right, the numbers allowed in were nowhere near right or safe and the large numbers turning up at once made everything worse. That was a usual scenario for big football games at the time. somebody made a decision and the events took over. what wont be addressed is the FAs involvement in the organisation and running of these games and more importantly the cover up from 'on high' after it. A few police officers will take the blame and the real power and influence behind staging a big game very poorly and then ordering the cover up will walk away unblemished. It is somewhat dangerous to state that large crowds of people have no responsibility for their own actions. But that was always going to be the case here, eventually.100% agree - I've followed this via David Conn for the past two years and to totally say Liverpool fans had no part to play in what happened would be untrue. There were witnesses who testified that some fans didn't have tickets - that played a part. The utmost responsibility though falls on those in charge, better handled this wouldn't have happened.
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