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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:50:04 GMT 1
Does the Guardian article blame UKIP? What an incredible comment to make - you're either young or don't grasp the gravity of what's happened today?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:51:53 GMT 1
btw, the man in charge on the day had little powers to start or coerce a cover up involving the media and the government, which planet do you actually live on? middle ranking police officer overseeing a total balls up??? yes he could organise it all in a matter of hours, nay minutes.. bollox,, According to the longest inquest in British legal history; The man in charge that day was promoted about 2 weeks before, replacing a popular, experienced man who was moved for internal political reasons, had prepared totally inadequately, made fatal decisions because he was inexperienced, hadn't bothered to read the safety plans for the day and was then personally complicit in a wide ranging, deep conspiracy to cover up the events at the behest of his thoroughly unpleasant superiors, which began on the very day of the tragedy. Thankfully, after the actual evidence has been laid out in full for an inquest to make a decision we don't have to listen to opinions, informed by deliberate misdirection by the police and their political masters any more. Kelvin McKenzie, Simon Heffer, Boris Johnson, Bernard Ingham and the other crypto fascists can fuck off and never utter their emphatically discredited garbage again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:53:25 GMT 1
Actually, Marcus hasn't put that eloquently. If he is questioning whether this verdict completely exonerates the fans from some liability of what happened - then he has a point. Evidence was heard in this trial of fans entering without tickets which put pressure on an already volatile situation. However, I think many can agree that the Police, especially the man in charge that day, fucked up and if the fan management was run properly the disaster would've been potentially avoided. surely the singular reason the entire tragedy happened is because some fuckwit of a police officer instructed that the side gates be opened, ergo causing a massive influx of fans, who had no idea what was in store for them? Caged in like animals. Nowhere to go. Everywhere people suffocating and being crushed while the copper who gave the order quickly covered his own back by getting the police force to close ranks and protect him from any possible accusations. How can anyone blame the fans? Tanked up or not they are completely innocent. Without the side gate being opened the tragic events would never have happened would they?
The fans caused the stampede, the police let it happen. My understanding was that the crush happened because fans were desperate to get in and were pushing forward outside the ground.
The big question is this. Did the police open the outside gate because they feared people were getting crushed outside the ground? If they hadn't opened this gate those inside would have survived, but what if 90 plus got crushed outside the ground?
Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
No excuse for the cover up and the way the initial investigation was handled
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Post by artysid on Apr 26, 2016 15:54:18 GMT 1
btw, the man in charge on the day had little powers to start or coerce a cover up involving the media and the government, which planet do you actually live on? middle ranking police officer overseeing a total balls up??? yes he could organise it all in a matter of hours, nay minutes.. bollox,, TBF although I don’t know what shape or form any coordinated cover up took place, but the smears did begin quite early. In the gymnasium as they were identifying their children’s bodies according to Trevor Hicks, and it was very early on that Chief Superintendent (middle ranking?) David Duckenfield, lied about Liverpool supporters having smashed through a closed gate before kick-off, causing the crush, when in fact he had ordered it to be left open to ease congestion.
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htfc63
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Post by htfc63 on Apr 26, 2016 15:57:38 GMT 1
I really do feel for those families who lost loved ones. I also think some decisions and actions taken were clearly wrong and in many ways illegal. In saying this I wonder how many of the Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and tried to push down the gates feel any remorse for their actions which kicked off a tragic trail of events.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 15:59:03 GMT 1
btw, the man in charge on the day had little powers to start or coerce a cover up involving the media and the government, which planet do you actually live on? middle ranking police officer overseeing a total balls up??? yes he could organise it all in a matter of hours, nay minutes.. bollox,, According to the longest inquest in British legal history; The man in charge that day was promoted about 2 weeks before, replacing a popular, experienced man who was moved for internal political reasons, had prepared totally inadequately, made fatal decisions because he was inexperienced, hadn't bothered to read the safety plans for the day and was then personally complicit in a wide ranging, deep conspiracy to cover up the events at the behest of his thoroughly unpleasant superiors, which began on the very day of the tragedy. Thankfully, after the actual evidence has been laid out in full for an inquest to make a decision we don't have to listen to opinions, informed by deliberate misdirection by the police and their political masters any more. Kelvin McKenzie, Simon Heffer, Boris Johnson, Bernard Ingham and the other crypto fascists can fuck off and never utter their emphatically discredited garbage again. like I said, its bollox.. being personally complicit takes all forms, personal responsibility goes out of the window, it had done before that and is just as rampant today.. he did however make some of the same decisions made previously at games at this ground,which didnt end in tragedy. The south yorks police and ambulance service will be liable, the instigators and overseers of badly organised and safety free football matches at the time along with those who organised and oversaw the cover up wont be.. justice badly served and all that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:00:07 GMT 1
don't think many people are suggesting the fans are entirely blameless Marcus. That's exactly how the media are portraying the jury verdict.. or another... I could go on, they are all saying the same.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:01:03 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:02:57 GMT 1
[, especially after the lies spread by Thatcher's government, Oh come on! Are you really still that bitter about losing your milk break at school? ...Always bloody Thatcher's fault. I can see the headlines in the Liverpool Echo now.
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Post by pieeater on Apr 26, 2016 16:03:55 GMT 1
Does the Guardian article blame UKIP? moron
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:09:17 GMT 1
I was talking about people on here Marcus, the jurors had a very specific question to answer & they had to answer it yes or no...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:14:20 GMT 1
Like anyone gives a fuck what your understanding is of the situation, versus a two year inquest. It's the majority of the forum's understanding that you are a parasite who leeches off stuff like this to post your detestable bile because you're desperate for attention. Also, do you write your posts in html? You utter moron.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Apr 26, 2016 16:23:31 GMT 1
Listened to the verdict as driving today. Justice after 27 years. Absolutely correct verdicts. Let them rest in peace now. Some moronic comments on here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:25:41 GMT 1
I was talking about people on here Marcus, the jurors had a very specific question to answer & they had to answer it yes or no... No, what they have done is apportioned blame 100% on the police and completely exonerated the fans. Whilst this may well have been the result many wanted to remove the guilt complex from some fans, I'm not convinced this is total justice.
Now many lawsuits do you think will be put forward now against the police, who have been given total liability?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:28:38 GMT 1
Like anyone gives a fuck what your understanding is of the situation, versus a two year inquest. It's the majority of the forum's understanding that you are a parasite who leeches off stuff like this to post your detestable bile because you're desperate for attention. Also, do you write your posts in html? You utter moron. Oh yeah, like your valuable input wasn't moronic and completely irrelevant.
This enquiry would have ran and ran until the campaigners got the verdict they wanted. At least we can finally draw the line under it. Never their fault, no matter what.
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Post by workshyfop on Apr 26, 2016 16:40:49 GMT 1
Like anyone gives a fuck what your understanding is of the situation, versus a two year inquest. It's the majority of the forum's understanding that you are a parasite who leeches off stuff like this to post your detestable bile because you're desperate for attention. Also, do you write your posts in html? You utter moron. Oh yeah, like your valuable input wasn't moronic and completely irrelevant.
This enquiry would have ran and ran until the campaigners got the verdict they wanted. At least we can finally draw the line under it. Never their fault, no matter what.
Have a day off. Just for once. No need to comment as justice has run its course and the truth is out there. Let the families have a little bit of peace. They lost people who went to watch a game of football and never came home.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:54:12 GMT 1
I was talking about people on here Marcus, the jurors had a very specific question to answer & they had to answer it yes or no... No, what they have done is apportioned blame 100% on the police and completely exonerated the fans. Whilst this may well have been the result many wanted to remove the guilt complex from some fans, I'm not convinced this is total justice.
Now many lawsuits do you think will be put forward now against the police, who have been given total liability?
I share your concerns. I think the cover-up was deplorable, but I am not sure it is fair to blame the Police entirely in view of the actions of many of the fans. The rushing and pushing was a big factor (some fans without tickets, too), although obviously the fans at the back didn't realise what was happening inside the ground, and mismanagement contributed to the crush. I hope this gives the families some peace all the same.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 16:57:34 GMT 1
I was talking about people on here Marcus, the jurors had a very specific question to answer & they had to answer it yes or no... No, what they have done is apportioned blame 100% on the police and completely exonerated the fans. Whilst this may well have been the result many wanted to remove the guilt complex from some fans, I'm not convinced this is total justice.
Now many lawsuits do you think will be put forward now against the police, who have been given total liability?
In doing so, reversed the injustice of the decision that's stood for 20+ yrs that the police were entirely blameless & the accidental death verdicts were incorrect. Listen to the Dukinfield etc. They've come clean Marcus, nothing to do with Liverpool fans banging down their doors, or for him to have a quiet life, just a bloke realising that on the day he fucked up (& lied), the weight of evidence is against the lies & the spin and there's only one sensible course of action to take. Not driven by anything other than the evidence being too difficult to refute... Why shouldn't there be lawsuits either, how would you feel if it were one of your loved ones? If that's the way some of them want to go to gain closure then what's the problem. I very much doubt any of these people will give a flying fuck about the money though...
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 26, 2016 16:59:31 GMT 1
Whilst no-one is ever going to discount some fans turned up without tickets.
Do you think this was the first ever case in history that it ever occurred?
It was the failure of the Police authorities to effectively deal with the situation in their midst which includes ticket checkpoints way before the turnstiles, dealing with drunken supporters, (Hell, reading this entire thread today, you'd think that only Liverpool's fans are the ones to have several drinks before a game and others club's fans are teetotal), late arriving spectators and overcrowded issues.
These occurred regularly at big matches and particularly previous semi finals. But these ganmes and incidents were effectively policed.
Sadly the Police authorities on that day were prioritising controlling misbehaviour over crowd safety, this emphasis remained during the lies and cover-ups that led right to the top and continued for months and years afterwards. It was an absolute and utter disgrace!
Finally the families of the lost that day can rest easy, as their battle for justice is finally won, just decades too late!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:15:40 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:20:02 GMT 1
Oh yeah, like your valuable input wasn't moronic and completely irrelevant.
This enquiry would have ran and ran until the campaigners got the verdict they wanted. At least we can finally draw the line under it. Never their fault, no matter what.
Have a day off. Just for once. No need to comment as justice has run its course and the truth is out there. Let the families have a little bit of peace. They lost people who went to watch a game of football and never came home.And as tragic as it was, can't face the fact that their own fans may have been at least in part to blame. This verdict will not bring anyone back and if you think this is actually justice, it's not it's just a blame game to exonerate the behaviour of the Liverpool fans.
What was the verdict of the death of the 39 Juventus fans killed at Heysel stadium 4 years earlier? Were the fans even partly to blame for that one or once again 100% blameless? It apparently took the Liverpool fans 20 years to even offer an apology for that one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:23:44 GMT 1
No, what they have done is apportioned blame 100% on the police and completely exonerated the fans. Whilst this may well have been the result many wanted to remove the guilt complex from some fans, I'm not convinced this is total justice.
Now many lawsuits do you think will be put forward now against the police, who have been given total liability?
In doing so, reversed the injustice of the decision that's stood for 20+ yrs that the police were entirely blameless & the accidental death verdicts were incorrect. Listen to the Dukinfield etc. They've come clean Marcus, nothing to do with Liverpool fans banging down their doors, or for him to have a quiet life, just a bloke realising that on the day he fucked up (& lied), the weight of evidence is against the lies & the spin and there's only one sensible course of action to take. Not driven by anything other than the evidence being too difficult to refute... Why shouldn't there be lawsuits either, how would you feel if it were one of your loved ones? If that's the way some of them want to go to gain closure then what's the problem. I very much doubt any of these people will give a flying fuck about the money though... Because, emotions aside no one side was to blame. If the police had left the outer gate shut, there was a very real chance that the fans rushing forward and crushing those at the gate, would have just transferred the tragedy outside the ground and created victims there.
This verdict has legally laid ALL blame at the door of the police, which I don't think is just or fair, but has surely opened the floodgates for legal cases.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 17:26:13 GMT 1
Whilst no-one is ever going to discount some fans turned up without tickets. Do you think this was the first ever case in history that it ever occurred? It was the failure of the Police authorities to effectively deal with the situation in their midst which includes ticket checkpoints way before the turnstiles, dealing with drunken supporters, (Hell, reading this entire thread today, you'd think that only Liverpool's fans are the ones to have several drinks before a game and others club's fans are teetotal), late arriving spectators and overcrowded issues. These occurred regularly at big matches and particularly previous semi finals. But these ganmes and incidents were effectively policed. Sadly the Police authorities on that day were prioritising controlling misbehaviour over crowd safety, this emphasis remained during the lies and cover-ups that led right to the top and continued for months and years afterwards. It was an absolute and utter disgrace! Finally the families of the lost that day can rest easy, as their battle for justice is finally won, just decades too late! sadly on this day the numbers and the timing were different.. the organisation to funnell the supporters went wrong.. the police on the day made mistakes no doubt.. the mistakes made in the preparation of this and many other games was wrong.. the leeds v coventry game was exactly the same, the authorities as a whole 'got away with it'... this led to nothing changing.. lots of errors, lots of mistakes from a number of organisations, lots of fans turning up late with no tickets knowing the situations from previous games, then a hideous cover up from the very highest down. A few police officers to blame??? too easy, too clean...even after all these years the 'justice' isnt served... the blame is just reduced to the lowest common denominator.. The police must take a good deal of the blame but its never, ever going to sit well that 'that will do'...
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Post by pieeater on Apr 26, 2016 17:31:19 GMT 1
No, what they have done is apportioned blame 100% on the police and completely exonerated the fans. Whilst this may well have been the result many wanted to remove the guilt complex from some fans, I'm not convinced this is total justice.
Now many lawsuits do you think will be put forward now against the police, who have been given total liability?
I share your concerns. I think the cover-up was deplorable, but I am not sure it is fair to blame the Police entirely in view of the actions of many of the fans. The rushing and pushing was a big factor (some fans without tickets, too), although obviously the fans at the back didn't realise what was happening inside the ground, and mismanagement contributed to the crush. That isn't what the inquest jury has concluded after two years listening to the evidence
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Post by detox on Apr 26, 2016 17:35:34 GMT 1
The fact the cover up worked for so long means those guilty of the cover up have happily lived their lives, had their families around them, retired..drawn their pensions and are way past prosecution..Just like the other cover ups we've seen where those (like Saville..) escape any punishment. There will never be real justice for the 96 and while the 'establishment' continue, to this day, to close ranks and cover up, obscure and deny knowledge or memory of without fear of being held to account it will just keep happening, in one form or another..Birmingham 6, Paedo's, tax dodgers, bank fraud...you could go on and on... It's simply awful and totally unacceptable.
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Post by rocky on Apr 26, 2016 17:45:10 GMT 1
Jesus, what a damning article that is.
Must admit, I'd always thought that the actions of some Liverpool fans had played a bit of a part, but after watching that, it's clear the tragedy was caused by staggering incompetence. If that wasn't bad enough, the subsequent cover up & falsifying evidence / lying etc. is beyond contemptible. It's been a long time coming, but some fuckers are surely going to get what they deserve.
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Post by Marshleeds on Apr 26, 2016 17:53:16 GMT 1
surely the singular reason the entire tragedy happened is because some fuckwit of a police officer instructed that the side gates be opened, ergo causing a massive influx of fans, who had no idea what was in store for them? Caged in like animals. Nowhere to go. Everywhere people suffocating and being crushed while the copper who gave the order quickly covered his own back by getting the police force to close ranks and protect him from any possible accusations. How can anyone blame the fans? Tanked up or not they are completely innocent. Without the side gate being opened the tragic events would never have happened would they? In previous games at the same location, same end, the pressure of fans outside had caused the opening of a gate to allow the crush outside to be released.. they didnt end in tragedy, although from my posts above this could have been very different. Do you allow a fast moving public order situation to become much worse outside the ground or try and release the build up of pressure?? your call.. someone or a few are killed or badly injured outside or the release goes well and nobody is badly hurt?? or the actual events unfold as they did? you release and then its down to hoping its gone numerous times before and everyone does not crowd down on single area.. you will lose whatever choice you make.. nobody on earth gets paid enough or is senior enough to make or to stand and fall on those type of decisions.. heads you lose, tails you lose.. They dont make them now, your civil rights are impinged upon before the crowd get to make any bad moves en masse.. This tragic incident has always plagued me as I attended the Semi final Leeds v Coventry in 1987 and we had the same end. Once in the ground I have never before or after ever seen such a mass crowd packed into such a terrace. We were lucky and were in the higher corner part of Leppings Lane so avoided the pens behind the goal but still remember feeling a tad uncomfortable even from our lofty viewpoint. What I do remember is getting off our mini bus near Wadsley Bridge on the hill and as soon as we reached those streets near the ground having our tickets strictly scrutinised long before we got near the turnstiles. Why this wasn't done 2 years after has always puzzled me or did Liverpool just have way more numbers all arriving en masse at the same time? Maybe our reputation was the cause for the ticket checks who knows? As for today's verdict there are no winners in the end, most of the senior staff now held responsible are either passed away themselves or too old to face trial. What I am sure of is surely none of the emergency services on duty that fateful day wanted this to happen either and the blame game will never put any of this sad affair right.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 26, 2016 17:58:25 GMT 1
Wrong man in charge on the day Marsh, not the guy who had overseen operations at previous big games at Hillsborough but a new guy who hadn't been to the ground in 10 years and never led a matchday operation there and sadly, who NOW by his own admission made mistake after mistake leading upto and on that fateful day.
The David Conn article covers it all but sadly Marcus won't read it because it's in the Guardian.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 18:14:10 GMT 1
Marcus - I think your comments on here suggest your view is that the passage of time should be the arbiter of justice? Is that really how justice should be determined in our supposedly democratic country?
As a nation we should be both proud & ashamed today.
Ashamed that it's taken so long and so much effort by so many people (who have very little to gain in context of what they lost) to get to what is actually quite a simple truth...
Similarly proud of those people, who never gave up, probably in the face of some incredible obstructions/threats etc. placed in their way...
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Apr 26, 2016 18:18:15 GMT 1
BBC news report now and will be on ten oclock news. Really brings it back. Very very emotive. Watch it if you can.
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