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Post by Hank Hill on Sept 5, 2017 23:24:20 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 23:46:42 GMT 1
DH said at Canalside he wouldn't close academy, but it would definitely change to either upgrade or downgrade. |
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Post by specialun on Sept 6, 2017 0:05:39 GMT 1
Whatever we do with the academy structure we need to have a long term plan
We can't change academy head coach / manager every year and expect that will lead to new players in the under 23s never mind first team within a year
We aren't going to have an immediate impact on the under 18s for example by new ideas now & then expect that will lead to them breaking through in a year's time
It needs a longer term look to focus on younger age groups in hope they come through in 3/4 years via any changes
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 4:00:19 GMT 1
Can't blame Dean for wanting it to change.
The Manchester clubs etc take all the best local talent anyway, offering far more than we can.
Think we'll turn more towards picking up the players that the bigger clubs release late on in their development (similar to Tommy Smith and Harry Bunn), or older youths from smaller clubs abroad (like Billing).
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Post by morleyterrier on Sept 6, 2017 4:49:45 GMT 1
If this is true, very short sighted.
The same as was the case with his choice of Managers, Hoyle doesn't seem to be picking the right one to lead the Academy but he will and things will then fall in to place.
All we need is one Player every now and then to make it in to the first Team. As a Premier League Club this Player will potentially be worth £10m+ and if we sell them. It pays for the running of the Academy for a couple of years.
If we get it right, there is no reason why more than one Player cannot come through the ranks.
Not sure what they are doing at Chelsea Academy wise but as we know, they have a wealth of young talent that they haven't had to buy and is worth significant money.
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Post by Gold Coast Terrier on Sept 6, 2017 5:36:20 GMT 1
It would help if our Director of Football could stick around for a while to build a long term plan. This is a position that's meant to offer stability to the club and through no fault of our own we're seeing some churn here. Weaver was appointed by Webber, which was his job and not Dean Hoyle's.
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Post by Tanzanian Terrier on Sept 6, 2017 7:51:17 GMT 1
In fairness the Academy is a representation of the Club and particularly the 1st Team. This year aside, we have really been an academy without an identity and trying to compete against bigger rivals nearby ie City & United and others. We have always been previously been seen as a low level Championship club and has perhaps never been a real draw for young aspiring footballers. I suppose it also depends on the quality of the scouting network, which should be able to identify talented youngster for development.
All this said the whole thing is now changing we are a Premier League club and with that goes higher profile and more attractive to youngers. The Academy may not be at the top of the tree in Academy terms but provided we can maintain Premier League status the Academy should be able to use this to its benefit but ultimately the Academy is only as good as its Manager and maybe DW could provide some input into a suitable candidate for this post.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 8:02:14 GMT 1
"Another option to shutting the academy is downgrading it's status to Category 2"  We ARE Category 2. |
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Post by The Sheriff Strikes Back on Sept 6, 2017 8:04:19 GMT 1
Nothing to see here, shoddy journalism.
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Sept 6, 2017 8:12:59 GMT 1
"Another option to shutting the academy is downgrading it's status to Category 2" We ARE Category 2. It says "Another option would be to downgrade their status FROM Category 2" in the actual report, not the summary. The text about Brentford is actually more interesting and the argument for following their path seems fairly compelling. A number of guests at Canalside Q&A's have criticised academy structures (not Town specifically) and the article says "....with the academy landscape beginning to change". Maybe Town are being reasonably proactive? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 8:19:13 GMT 1
"Another option to shutting the academy is downgrading it's status to Category 2" We ARE Category 2. It says "Another option would be to downgrade their status FROM Category 2" in the actual report, not the summary. The text about Brentford is actually more interesting and the argument for following their path seems fairly compelling. A number of guests at Canalside Q&A's have criticised academy structures (not Town specifically) and the article says "....with the academy landscape beginning to change". Maybe Town are being reasonably proactive? Yes, I did read it through, doesn't excuse it. The Brentford model is old news, Dean mentioned it as a possible route last year. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 8:19:39 GMT 1
This is old news as it is well known that the club is doing a review on what direction to take regarding the academy.Nothing new from the Mail as no decision as been taken at this time.See development post |
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Post by detox on Sept 6, 2017 8:54:17 GMT 1
Dean has invested a small fortune setting up the Academy infrastructure, and it's a real shame we haven't been able to bring the kids through and get a return on our investment. It can't possibly carry on as it is and something definitely needs to change.
The bigger clubs are sweeping up all the kids, more than they ever need and running theirs as a business where they loan out then sell their better lads. Chelsea and Man City mainly but not exclusively. I can understand Brentford downgrading and just taking the older lads, and they have more challenging fixtures by the sound of this article, which must be appealing to the fringe lads at other academies.
Whether now is the right time though I don't know, you'd think being a Premier League club we could attract some better lads, if we can stay at this level. It is however a long term project getting 7, 8 , 9 year olds and hoping in 10 years time they make the grade..can we afford to wait ? Are there many , or any lads with us now who look like they have potential..?
The evidence so far is that we can only produce lads for league one or below...so that's no good particularly as we are not exactly selling them for good money. Dean is right to be concerned, and the lack of stability at the top of the Academy doesn't help either. The hardest part of making a decision like this (to downgrade) is actually telling all those aspiring young lads that they don't need to come anymore because we're downsizing.
Tough one, which I'm glad I don't have to decide, but my instinct tells me we should downgrade and just take the older lads, like Brentford have done and seen some success with.
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Post by drfootball on Sept 6, 2017 9:07:39 GMT 1
It's tricky balance but I would say , the academy I belive costs about 500k a year to run , IF we sold Billing alone he's would fetch who knows 3 million minimum?
That's 6 years worth of funding in one sale ! You only need to find that one John Stones (like Barnsley did ) and the academy funds itself for a generation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 9:16:10 GMT 1
No secret the chairman isnt interested in the academy.Its a potential public relations disaster for the club.Imagine how the players and parents of the academy lads are feeling at the moment.
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Post by Mr Breitside on Sept 6, 2017 9:25:37 GMT 1
It's tricky balance but I would say , the academy I belive costs about 500k a year to run , IF we sold Billing alone he's would fetch who knows 3 million minimum? That's 6 years worth of funding in one sale ! You only need to find that one John Stones (like Barnsley did ) and the academy funds itself for a generation. 3 million ? In this market it will be nearer 30m when you see drinkwater was 35m |
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Post by mids on Sept 6, 2017 9:28:33 GMT 1
No secret the chairman isnt interested in the academy.Its a potential public relations disaster for the club.Imagine how the players and parents of the academy lads are feeling at the moment. Isn't he?? Of course he bloody well is. He simply wants to see some value for his monetary investment - and he's correct. The players and parents need to up their game and if they're good enough they'll produce the goods - be it with us or elsewhere. |
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Sept 6, 2017 9:34:29 GMT 1
Now we are Prem we can attract the best 10 year olds...now is the time to persevere i think.
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Post by detox on Sept 6, 2017 9:38:40 GMT 1
No secret the chairman isnt interested in the academy.Its a potential public relations disaster for the club.Imagine how the players and parents of the academy lads are feeling at the moment. Isn't he?? Of course he bloody well is. He simply wants to see some value for his monetary investment - and he's correct. The players and parents need to up their game and if they're good enough they'll produce the goods - be it with us or elsewhere. I'm not sure exactly how it works with the intake of kids.. at the lowest level (under 7?) what do we do invite 50 or so kids and pick the best 15 or so, then if they're ok they will all progress through the years ? meanwhile I guess we add other kids at various age groups as and when they seem to be available or good enough..to keep the numbers up so we can field a team at each level ? The point is, we're taking lads in so we can have a team at each age level, but how many are actually just there to make up the numbers ? |
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Post by mids on Sept 6, 2017 10:31:06 GMT 1
Isn't he?? Of course he bloody well is. He simply wants to see some value for his monetary investment - and he's correct. The players and parents need to up their game and if they're good enough they'll produce the goods - be it with us or elsewhere. I'm not sure exactly how it works with the intake of kids.. at the lowest level (under 7?) what do we do invite 50 or so kids and pick the best 15 or so, then if they're ok they will all progress through the years ? meanwhile I guess we add other kids at various age groups as and when they seem to be available or good enough..to keep the numbers up so we can field a team at each level ? The point is, we're taking lads in so we can have a team at each age level, but how many are actually just there to make up the numbers ? They don't invite kids for the sake of it, and to ensure they have enough numbers for a proper game!! They invite kids, and they scout kids, who they think have potential and they hope they'll develop and prosper and flourish over time as they grow and learn. It's not an exact science. There's a lot of luck involved but the secret is for the academy staff to be good enough to aid the development of those who can and should make a career out of the game. Town need better 'science teachers', and maybe going a bit left field (like they did with Wagner's appointment) might reap rewards in the short to medium term. |
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Post by puertouk on Sept 6, 2017 10:34:58 GMT 1
Personally I don't think Town have enough scouts. My son was picked up by Man U, when he was 5 years old. We were living in Blackpool at the time, so it just proves that these youngsters are out there in the local community, but the local clubs don't have the scouting network like the big clubs. Surely Town should get more scouts to find the talented youngsters, not just around the local area, but farther afield. To me, there's no point doing something if you are not giving it 100%. From the youngest kids in the academy, they should be training the Wagner way. His style of football has jettisoned the club to new heights. Can we get someone in to run the academy who is successful at another club? Also, I believe that clubs should be only allowed a certain amount of academy players in a season. They should not be allowed to bring in huge amounts of players and then loan them out like Chelsea do.
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Post by upthetown on Sept 6, 2017 10:39:06 GMT 1
Chelsea, Man City and the likes stockpiling all the best kids is the problem. Often by offering financial incentives to parents. So many good young footballers end up on the scrap heap as a result.
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Post by terrierfortythree on Sept 6, 2017 10:43:08 GMT 1
Upgrade to Category 1 for me, would allow us to compete in the north at least.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 11:06:18 GMT 1
No secret the chairman isnt interested in the academy.Its a potential public relations disaster for the club.Imagine how the players and parents of the academy lads are feeling at the moment. I have no doubts that dean is more than capable of speaking for himself but your statement dean isn't interested in the academy is totally false.What Dean is saying it isnt really fit for purpose in its current position.That is different to saying he has no interest.A lot of things need and are being considered at this moment and I'm sure what ever the outcome whether it be upgrade down grade or close it altogether and go a different route will be made in the best interests of the club.Let them get on with it and lets see what the decision is. |
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Post by JonsonClarkParis on Sept 6, 2017 11:15:28 GMT 1
The coaches are not the best down there tbh, they don't treat the kids great at all. I know 3 or 4 under 9 10 and 11s who have chosen our rivals over us due to the fact they don't enjoy it and farr better development and coaching. There is a number of unhappy parents currently still there
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 11:16:08 GMT 1
Upgrade to Category 1 for me, would allow us to compete in the north at least. To try and get category 1 would be very expensive and would need even more development at canalside but I am sure that bis one of the options they are looking at but as I have said whatever decision is made will have been given a hell of a lot of thought and I certainly wont criticise what ever decision they reach |
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Post by k1man999 on Sept 6, 2017 11:16:44 GMT 1
Personally I don't think Town have enough scouts. My son was picked up by Man U, when he was 5 years old. We were living in Blackpool at the time, so it just proves that these youngsters are out there in the local community, but the local clubs don't have the scouting network like the big clubs. Surely Town should get more scouts to find the talented youngsters, not just around the local area, but farther afield. To me, there's no point doing something if you are not giving it 100%. From the youngest kids in the academy, they should be training the Wagner way. His style of football has jettisoned the club to new heights. Can we get someone in to run the academy who is successful at another club? Also, I believe that clubs should be only allowed a certain amount of academy players in a season. They should not be allowed to bring in huge amounts of players and then loan them out like Chelsea do. Agree a friends lad plays over in greater Manchester but has just been picked up by l***s for trials. Apparently lots of scouts at the games from Utd city etc but never come across a town scout. If we are not looking just along the local m62 corridor what the bloody he'll are we doing. |
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 11:22:21 GMT 1
Chelsea, Man City and the likes stockpiling all the best kids is the problem. Often by offering financial incentives to parents. So many good young footballers end up on the scrap heap as a result. Not sure they are really stockpiling them are they or that good young footballers end on the scrap heap. Just that the products of their academies are not good enough to break through into their first team squad. They are effectively stockpiling themselves. We have just the same problem and its not going to get easier for any of our academy lads to break through in to our first team. Its going to get harder. If I was Dean I'd be having a look at what the German clubs do and if that is more successful - I don't know just a suggestion. It would be a shame if we didn't support junior/youth football in the area but maybe there are better ways to do it than a formal academy. From the heights of the Premier League I wonder if it would be better to copy some other German ideas like Wagner used to run a very competitive BD 2nd Team in a lower league. Maybe we ought to be doing that. Might solve the "Reserves" team problem and the academy issue. Whatever, DH is right to be looking at the options. I have a bit of vested interest. My nephew is Man United's U16 Goalie. He's pretty good but who knows if he will make it. Its particularly tough at that age because he is a bright lad and in a way having to chose between education and footie. |
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 11:24:16 GMT 1
The coaches are not the best down there tbh, they don't treat the kids great at all. I know 3 or 4 under 9 10 and 11s who have chosen our rivals over us due to the fact they don't enjoy it and farr better development and coaching. There is a number of unhappy parents currently still there That is a shame to hear and would be one of the fundamental reasons the academy is unsuccessful. They need to look after the kids and the parents. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 11:58:25 GMT 1
Personally I don't think Town have enough scouts. My son was picked up by Man U, when he was 5 years old. We were living in Blackpool at the time, so it just proves that these youngsters are out there in the local community, but the local clubs don't have the scouting network like the big clubs. Surely Town should get more scouts to find the talented youngsters, not just around the local area, but farther afield. To me, there's no point doing something if you are not giving it 100%. From the youngest kids in the academy, they should be training the Wagner way. His style of football has jettisoned the club to new heights. Can we get someone in to run the academy who is successful at another club? Also, I believe that clubs should be only allowed a certain amount of academy players in a season. They should not be allowed to bring in huge amounts of players and then loan them out like Chelsea do. We don't scout players as young as 5, even if we did we wouldn't be bringing them from 70 miles away. |
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