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Post by davidpgowinghtafc on Dec 2, 2008 7:25:23 GMT 1
I cannot understand all this talk about Big Sam. Dean has stated he wants a young and ambitious manager. Big Sam may be ambitious, I do not know, but I do know he isn't young. Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to why his name has cropped up.
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Post by Captainslapper on Dec 2, 2008 10:22:21 GMT 1
Mainly because he was on Sky sports and when asked about getting back into management, he said he is itching to get back in and would be perfectly willing to take a job in the football League so long as the club is ambitious enough and can let him take them to a level they perhaps haven't been before. Town very much fit that description, and also we are in his part of the world ( Allardyce has never worked south of Nottingham other than a 2 year stint at Millwall in the early 80s).
The only jobs I can see POSSIBLY coming up soon in the northern half of England that Allardyce would prefer to our job is Sunderland and Forest. I think hed stand a good chance of getting the Sunderland job. Ex-player and wasn't at Newcastle long enough for it to be an issue. Billy davies will got the Forest job I reckon. So if Roy Keane picks them up a bit, and Big Sam is itching to get back in and is reluctant to move him and his family away from his Lancashire home, then where else would he go OTHER THAN Town?
Kosi thinks its a hillarious suggestion. I don't think it is in the slightest. Not saying it will be him but I see no reason why it couldn't be. Its about where we COULD BE, not where we ARE.
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Post by Terrier9 on Dec 2, 2008 10:25:14 GMT 1
i would love it if big sam came, defo go for a season ticket next year but he such a high profile manager and jobs could soon be popping up in the prem,
correct me if i am wrong i ve been away didnt Deno say the new man wouldnt be a big name
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betsvigi9
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Post by betsvigi9 on Dec 2, 2008 10:28:37 GMT 1
I cannot understand all this talk about Big Sam. Dean has stated he wants a young and ambitious manager. Big Sam may be ambitious, I do not know, but I do know he isn't young. Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to why his name has cropped up. Because, he is out of a job and we are being linked with anyone who isn't working at the moment. Also, he achieved extraordinary success with a very similar sized club over a prolongued period of time. I for one, would be delighted if it proves to be true, although I will believe absolutely nothing until the name of the new manager is announced. I reckon he is in his early 50's, so he's not that old. On the other hand, if it is Adkins, then I'm not sure why we didn't just stick with Stan. I fail to see why Adkins would even be considered, one promotion with someone elses team, followed by relegation and there is a long way to go this season. I am also not a fan of Boothroyd becoming manager. His record is extremely patchy. One successful season, followed by a general downward trajectory. It's a tough one and I wouldn't want to be in Hoyle's shoes, because he absolutely has to get it right this time. There is a huge amount of pressure on him.
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Post by runner76 on Dec 2, 2008 10:31:44 GMT 1
A crazy suggestion.................
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Post by davidpgowinghtafc on Dec 2, 2008 10:36:35 GMT 1
Thank you Captainslapper and betsvigi9.
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Post by nseventee on Dec 2, 2008 11:47:09 GMT 1
The only jobs I can see POSSIBLY coming up soon in the northern half of England that Allardyce would prefer to our job is Sunderland and Forest. Sheff Utd could be looking for a manager with anything less than promotion, Preston too, although of late they've tended to go for the type of manager that you get the impression that Dean Hoyle is after which would probably rule Sam out of the running there. Plus the Blackburn job is likely to be available next summer I would have thought. Not much out there for him, but I'm sure he's willing to wait 12-18 months or so for the right job to come along, its not as though he needs the money...
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Post by morrisraspass on Dec 2, 2008 11:50:02 GMT 1
The only jobs I can see POSSIBLY coming up soon in the northern half of England that Allardyce would prefer to our job is Sunderland and Forest. Sheff Utd could be looking for a manager with anything less than promotion, Preston too, although of late they've tended to go for the type of manager that you get the impression that Dean Hoyle is after which would probably rule Sam out of the running there. Plus the Blackburn job is likely to be available next summer I would have thought. Not much out there for him, but I'm sure he's willing to wait 12-18 months or so for the right job to come along, its not as though he needs the money... Reading between the lines nseventee, you're saying it is Adkins! You seem ever so certain ...
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Post by Captainslapper on Dec 2, 2008 12:26:44 GMT 1
Lots of jobs 'could' come up that we be more appealling than Town, but if you were Sam, how long do you wait? As he said hes 'itching to get back in' it kind of suggests hes tired of waiting. Its already been a year. Like you say, he doesn't need the money but I think that would work more to our advantage in terms of getting him than not. Its not so much about what we can pay him ( though Im sure we could compete with most Championship clubs in that respect) but about the potential of the club and whether it suits his personal needs- ie, maybe he wouldn't consider a job at say Norwich, cos he wouldn't want to move his family. On Blackburn, that job could well come up shortly ( or maybe it won't) but he was turned down when Ince got it and apparently their fans are dead against him for his Bolton links.
I guess for him its a case of how long do you wait for the ideal job to come up, that you may or may not get, when you're already desperate to get back into management after a year of twiddling your thumbs, when there IS a job available at a club with all the potential you say you would need even though they're perhaps a division lower than you would ideally prefer? A club you already have a history with, even a short one.
Thats why I don't think its the fancyfull idea some seem to think it is. The only downside to appointing Sam would be that he would eventually be linked to all these 'better' jobs when they do finally become available, even if its taking some time to get us where we want to be, such is his standing in the game. We may lose him and be back to where we are now. Only Hoyle would be able to make that call on his dedication to succeed HERE from talking to the man. It would be wrong for us to just presume he would jump ship.
there again Adkins might jump ship too if a 'Sheffield Utd' came up, but I guess hed have to be a success here first to stand a chance of getting it, so at least we'd be progressed in the meantime.
Talking of Adkins though, its certainly taking some time to sort out the compo *IF* n7t has been correct all along. Kind of suggests either n7t (or his source) are off the mark, or their valuation is a lot different from Hoyles. I wouldn't pay more than 2 or 300k compo for any manager in the 3rd division of his standing. If they're expecting some of the figures mentioned on here then I think thats a none starter.
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Post by Davey Monroe on Dec 2, 2008 12:53:26 GMT 1
Further to the Peter Taylor example of a gaffer who takes "unfashionable/lower League" jobs, Kevin Keegan took over at 2nd Division Fulham not long after guiding Newcastle to two runners-up positions in the Premier League. Granted, he didn't stay too long but look what happened to them after he left.
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Post by Captainslapper on Dec 2, 2008 13:08:20 GMT 1
Allardyce will be worried that the longer he stays out of the game, he is falling into the David O'Leary catagory of ex-big time manager who would now struggle to get ANY job in the top 2 divisions, or maybe even lower than that. Big Sams standing in the game is still far higher than O'Leary's but it will occur to him OLeary had Leeds challenging for the title and in the semis of the CL not long ago yet now can't get a decent job anywhere. George Graham waited and waited for the 'right job' and wouldn't be considered by many decent sized clubs now.
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Post by nseventee on Dec 2, 2008 13:52:01 GMT 1
Talking of Adkins though, its certainly taking some time to sort out the compo *IF* n7t has been correct all along. Kind of suggests either n7t (or his source) are off the mark, or their valuation is a lot different from Hoyles. I wouldn't pay more than 2 or 300k compo for any manager in the 3rd division of his standing. If they're expecting some of the figures mentioned on here then I think thats a none starter. Its not just compensation with Scunny from Town to agree, Adkins has quite complicated negotiations of his own with Scunny to come to an agreement about a pay-off. I suspect them having their AGM last Monday, and then having a game on Tuesday night didn't help things, if Adkins is as professional as he intimates, he possibly would have suspended any talks in the latter part of the week to concentrate on their potential banana skin cup game as well.
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Post by townatheart on Dec 2, 2008 13:58:52 GMT 1
Talking of Adkins though, its certainly taking some time to sort out the compo *IF* n7t has been correct all along. Kind of suggests either n7t (or his source) are off the mark, or their valuation is a lot different from Hoyles. I wouldn't pay more than 2 or 300k compo for any manager in the 3rd division of his standing. If they're expecting some of the figures mentioned on here then I think thats a none starter. Its not just compensation with Scunny from Town to agree, Adkins has quite complicated negotiations of his own with Scunny to come to an agreement about a pay-off. I suspect them having their AGM last Monday, and then having a game on Tuesday night didn't help things, if Adkins is as professional as he intimates, he possibly would have suspended any talks in the latter part of the week to concentrate on their potential banana skin cup game as well. Perhaps I am just a bit old and thick, but please will you clarify what negotiations that Adkins would be needing to complete as regards a pay-off in this situation? Not sure at all what you are saying here.
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Post by nseventee on Dec 2, 2008 14:07:25 GMT 1
He has an outstanding contract with Scunny with negotiable exit clauses.
Obviously Scunny want to collect compensatino from Town and at the same time pay out as little as possible to Adkins as severance. He's SAID he remains committed to his contract and getting Scunny up into the Championship, so presumably he wants a payment being the greater part of what remains outstanding, as opposed to some smaller pay-off that they might want to offer him.
One of those negotiations is nothing to do with Hudds Town (but will possibly be made more or less difficult for Scunny depending on what we've offered them in the other one).
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Post by townatheart on Dec 2, 2008 14:13:34 GMT 1
He has an outstanding contract with Scunny with negotiable exit clauses. Obviously Scunny want to collect compensatino from Town and at the same time pay out as little as possible to Adkins as severance. He's SAID he remains committed to his contract and getting Scunny up into the Championship, so presumably he wants a payment being the greater part of what remains outstanding, as opposed to some smaller pay-off that they might want to offer him. One of those negotiations is nothing to do with Hudds Town (but will possibly be made more or less difficult for Scunny depending on what we've offered them in the other one). Oh, I am ignorant of football matters after all, never would have imagined that. You're saying than that his contact entitles him to compensation from Scunthorpe if HE CHOOSES TO LEAVE the club for another job at another football club? Again, am I being thick or am I missing something here?
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'Uddersfield
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Post by 'Uddersfield on Dec 2, 2008 14:14:32 GMT 1
I thought it was fairly obvious..
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Post by CaptainHart on Dec 2, 2008 14:19:59 GMT 1
Perhaps I am just a bit old and thick, but please will you clarify what negotiations that Adkins would be needing to complete as regards a pay-off in this situation? Not sure at all what you are saying here. You need to believe that employee’s who break their contract are entitled to compensation and, once you’ve believed that, that employers who agree to that don’t explicitly stipulate what that compensation would be. Also, you have to believe that the Scunthorpe chairman is prepared to tell his AGM a bare-faced lie.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2008 14:20:12 GMT 1
I would be delighted if it is Alladyce and maybe it isn't as far fetched as we initially think.
The good captain makes some good points re David O'Leary and George Graham that if you wait too long for the ideal job you end up not even at the races when one comes up.
I could see maybe Sam seeing us as stepping stone back to the big time and if that's the case i don't think Hoyle will take him. He went off Martin Allen when after asking him about a job coming up down south. He would no doubt ask Sam you take us up and are doing well in the Championship then a Blackburn, Sunderland, Bolton etc come in for you what would you do?
Personally I think if we could get a manager of the calibre of Alladyce even if it is only short term then go for it let him take us up and just make sure we are protected in terms of a compensation clause if he does move on and then worry about replacing him at the time with us sat in the championship that for me would be better than plumping for an unknow who may be loyal but may keep us in this diviision.
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Post by townatheart on Dec 2, 2008 14:24:08 GMT 1
Perhaps I am just a bit old and thick, but please will you clarify what negotiations that Adkins would be needing to complete as regards a pay-off in this situation? Not sure at all what you are saying here. You need to believe that employee’s who break their contract are entitled to compensation and, once you’ve believed that, that employers who agree to that don’t explicitly stipulate what that compensation would be. Also, you have to believe that the Scunthorpe chairman is prepared to tell his AGM a bare-faced lie. Are you saying that nice Mr Seven fella is winding us up Well, actually, was fishing to get him to admit that, but he is one determined little number is that one. So doubt he will give up that easily.
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Post by Captainslapper on Dec 2, 2008 14:44:37 GMT 1
Im sure n7t said at some point last week that Adkins had contacted us, not the other way round. If thats true then I find it very hard to understand how he'd be due ANY payoff from Scunny at all. I mean why would he be? Its him that's wanting to break his contract, not the club.
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Post by SN0W on Dec 2, 2008 14:49:46 GMT 1
Adkins is keen on the job.... but will he get it ? I have no solid intel on the Big Sam at all..... and it appears that neither does anyone else..... so Big Sam it is
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Post by Davey Monroe on Dec 2, 2008 14:52:49 GMT 1
Im sure n7t said at some point last week that Adkins had contacted us, not the other way round. This is what I was led to believe.
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Post by townatheart on Dec 2, 2008 15:03:14 GMT 1
Im sure n7t said at some point last week that Adkins had contacted us, not the other way round. If thats true then I find it very hard to understand how he'd be due ANY payoff from Scunny at all. I mean why would he be? Its him that's wanting to break his contract, not the club. exactly, that is the next question I was going to ask of n7t, before he dropped offline. I do believe he has painted himself in a corner finally. so, that should leave the door open for your analysis of Big Sam to be correct Captain Oh well, we might as well dream while we can.
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Post by CaptainHart on Dec 2, 2008 15:07:30 GMT 1
Are you saying that nice Mr Seven fella is winding us up I don’t know what he’s doing. However, I do think there’s a lot wrong with saying it’s Adkins. Adkins said he’d hadn’t been approached by Town, if he approached Town then why would he be due compo? If Town wanted to speak to Adkins they would need permission from Scunthorpe and their chairman categorically denied (to the AGM no less) that there had been no approach from Town. You decide.
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Post by nseventee on Dec 2, 2008 15:52:39 GMT 1
As I said previously, Adkins quite possibly approached Town unofficially...(like as if one of our players went to speak to another manager without getting permission first). OFFICIALLY he has made the stance that he is perfectly happy at Scunthorpe and intends seeing out his contract there. He wouldn't want to 'hand his notice in' because he would stand to lose out financially. He could theoretically have agreed his terms in principle quite early on (I'm "pretty sure" that Dean made his decision to bring Adkins in on or before the 5th of November based on info I've been told). Since then, Town would have to agree compensation terms with Scunthorpe in order to do whatever the managerial equivalent of officially 'approaching him for talks' is, and likewise, Adkins, as a manager publically willing to carry on with his Scunny contract, Scunny would need to offer Adkins some severance deal to terminate his contract early (as happens with footballers). I know that talks about 'compo' were undergoing as of last Tuesday morning, whether that was Hudds>Scunny payments or Scunny>Adkins payments being discussed I'm not sure, I didn't think enough of it at the time to probe further unfortunately - but the timing of it seemed to coincide with being AFTER Scunny saying they hadn't had an official approach from Town (so maybe the official approach happened last Tuesday morning or Monday evening after the AGM?) Unfortunately I don't have any further info beyond Dean likely being out of the country (quite possibly in France) last week, and the person I talk to who talks to the person who talks to someone who KNOWS whats happening on a daily basis, is unfortunately working away from his regular position this week, so I'm unlikely to be able to add any more tidbits to what of info I've already had before next Monday at the earliest (and it might obviously all become clear by then anyway). Adkins is the next Town manager. It'll be revealed in due course. And if he isn't, as previously promised, I'm willing to eat a Rogan Josh.
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Post by CaptainHart on Dec 2, 2008 16:00:59 GMT 1
As I said previously, Adkins quite possibly approached Town unofficially...(like as if one of our players went to speak to another manager without getting permission first). Like Ashley Cole talked to Chelsea. Scunny would need to offer Adkins some severance deal to terminate his contract early (as happens with footballers). Only when the club puts the player up for sale, not when the player applies for the transfer. They wouldn’t be terminating the contract, he would.
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Post by nseventee on Dec 2, 2008 16:08:22 GMT 1
But Adkins isn't terminating the contract, thats what I keep saying.
OFFICIALLY he is honouring his Scunny contract.
Town have had to negotiate a settlement to be allowed to talk to him, and its that money (call it a transfer fee if you will) that makes the Scunny board say to Adkins, "right, Hudds Town have made us a good offer - go and speak to them and we'll talk about compo - BECAUSE WE WANT THE MONEY THAT HUDDS OFFERED US".
Thats POSSIBLY (although this is only speculation) as to why its dragging on, if Scunny KNOW that Adkins has spoken to us they may be thinking they can spin it out and get him to jump (less to pay out for them) - in the meantime he keeps on doing his job as professionally as he can and Dean keeps saying he's prepared to wait...and so another day ticks by...
PS - Its Adkins.
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Post by TomTheTerrier on Dec 2, 2008 16:11:03 GMT 1
But Adkins isn't terminating the contract, thats what I keep saying. OFFICIALLY he is honouring his Scunny contract. Town have had to negotiate a settlement to be allowed to talk to him, and its that money (call it a transfer fee if you will) that makes the Scunny board say to Adkins, "right, Hudds Town have made us a good offer - go and speak to them and we'll talk about compo - BECAUSE WE WANT THE MONEY THAT HUDDS OFFERED US". Thats POSSIBLY (although this is only speculation) as to why its dragging on, if Scunny KNOW that Adkins has spoken to us they may be thinking they can spin it out and get him to jump (less to pay out for them) - in the meantime he keeps on doing his job as professionally as he can and Dean keeps saying he's prepared to wait...and so another day ticks by... PS - Its Adkins.So you're saying it is this protracted because Adkins wants a few extra quid?
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Post by CaptainHart on Dec 2, 2008 16:22:36 GMT 1
Which means the chairman lied to the AGM about us not making an approach. With regard to the compensation the seller factors it in to the price, simply saying to the buyer we want x for ourselves plus y to pay off the contract. That’s what happens with players.
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Post by nseventee on Dec 2, 2008 17:01:43 GMT 1
Which means the chairman lied to the AGM about us not making an approach. Why does it? We didn't necessarily make our official approach until AFTER the AGM. Except with players you typically know how much you have to pay to get rid of them, whereas you don't with managers. I say typically, as some have hinted on here, take the example of Luke Beckett - you could intimate that we have possibly been discussing the terms of his release since around about the time that he was being touted around Bradford and whoever... We're talking a lot of money for people who don't come from the age and level of football where they're "set for life". £50k or £100k lump sums or whatever are not something you walk away from for the sake of a few weeks I would have thought?
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