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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 23, 2014 0:40:37 GMT 1
Holmes' problem is that if he doesn't track back, put tackles or is easily knocked off the ball then people say he's not good enough or too lightweight. Players like him are at their most deadly in the final third and with a bit more confidence and belief in his own ability Holmes could be a real gem. We need the manager and just as importantly the fans to have faith in him. I think Holmes & Lolley could be fighting for one place this year but what exciting prospects they both are. From what I've seen of them both its Lolley - hands down for me. Depending on the formation we play I'd see Lolley strongly challenging Hammill for a wide role. I see it as nothing to do with either manager or fans having faith in Holmes or Lolley. I'm sure they will both get the opportunity.
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Spunker
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Post by Spunker on Jul 23, 2014 1:06:31 GMT 1
I think people think holmes is younger that he is. His lack of physical development will be his ultimate downfall. You obviously suffer from the Millwall Syndrome that Lee Clark contracted after losing to them in the Play-Off game down at The Den. You don't have to be 6ft 6 and 15 stone to make it at the top, you need the ability for sure, but the attitude can carry you there.
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Spunker
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Post by Spunker on Jul 23, 2014 1:15:05 GMT 1
he has shown against weaker opposition and at youth level what he can do, I think we should loan him to league 1 this season then the season after will be his big chance for us, he definitely wont start most games so we might as well get him as much experience and game time as possible in league 1 and tbh he would be a good signing for anyone in league 1. I would agree he needs games but he is a special talent and surely the setup we have here is much more beneficial for his development, as long as he is around the first team; starting or coming on from the bench. I hope we keep in at the club this season and he gets a good run of games, he can develop with us.
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Post by Skint Terriers on Jul 23, 2014 1:28:26 GMT 1
he has shown against weaker opposition and at youth level what he can do, I think we should loan him to league 1 this season then the season after will be his big chance for us, he definitely wont start most games so we might as well get him as much experience and game time as possible in league 1 and tbh he would be a good signing for anyone in league 1. I would agree he needs games but he is a special talent and surely the setup we have here is much more beneficial for his development, as long as he is around the first team; starting or coming on from the bench. I hope we keep in at the club this season and he gets a good run of games, he can develop with us. I would love for him to get a good run of games because he's what we need in midfield but i just don't think he's fully ready yet
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Post by JollyGreenGiant on Jul 23, 2014 9:07:14 GMT 1
Why are comparisons with previous 5ft tall players, 'ludicrous'.
Garbage
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 23, 2014 9:34:30 GMT 1
Why are comparisons with previous 5ft tall players, 'ludicrous'. Garbage Some dope was comparing Holmes with Bremner and Collins.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 9:40:25 GMT 1
I meant from an individual POV rather than a team dynamic. You couldn't have 11 Duane's, but alternatively, you shouldn't have 11 Jonathan Hogg's either, but in this country we're more likely to lean towards the team of Hoggs and appreciate them for some reason. That was more the point. I agree - its a team game. Holmes could be accommodated but I can't see it being easy for him with the balance of midfield players we have. He is very talented. For him to hold down a regular place he is going to have to be exceptionally talented to compensate for his physical weakness. I can't quite see/name many players of his type thriving at high level (say above Div 1). Previous comparisons with Bremner/Collins etc on comparative smallness are ludicrous. I guess someone like Modric is the role model for him? Hope he becomes a great player for us though. Raheem Sterling, Leighton Baines, David Silva, Vurnon Anita, Aaron Lennon, Santi Cazrola, Nathan Dyer, Stephane Sessegnon are all a similar size and played at the top of the Premier League. There's dozens and dozens on the continent where they play a more technical game and don't rely on battering rams.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 23, 2014 9:53:01 GMT 1
I agree - its a team game. Holmes could be accommodated but I can't see it being easy for him with the balance of midfield players we have. He is very talented. For him to hold down a regular place he is going to have to be exceptionally talented to compensate for his physical weakness. I can't quite see/name many players of his type thriving at high level (say above Div 1). Previous comparisons with Bremner/Collins etc on comparative smallness are ludicrous. I guess someone like Modric is the role model for him? Hope he becomes a great player for us though. Raheem Sterling, Leighton Baines, David Silva, Vurnon Anita, Aaron Lennon, Santi Cazrola, Nathan Dyer, Stephane Sessegnon are all a similar size and played at the top of the Premier League. There's dozens and dozens on the continent where they play a more technical game and don't rely on battering rams. Yes I understand that - inches (centimetres for the more technical foreign players) don't count. He is very different from most of those.
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Post by Sugy , Paignton Devon Terrier on Jul 23, 2014 10:10:47 GMT 1
Put a bit of muscle on Holmes as that will improve his game . Rump steak , odd guiness and make the most of Deans multi million pound investment by useing the canalside facilities to there full potential.
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Post by royrace on Jul 23, 2014 10:23:36 GMT 1
I agree - its a team game. Holmes could be accommodated but I can't see it being easy for him with the balance of midfield players we have. He is very talented. For him to hold down a regular place he is going to have to be exceptionally talented to compensate for his physical weakness. I can't quite see/name many players of his type thriving at high level (say above Div 1). Previous comparisons with Bremner/Collins etc on comparative smallness are ludicrous. I guess someone like Modric is the role model for him? Hope he becomes a great player for us though. Raheem Sterling, Leighton Baines, David Silva, Vurnon Anita, Aaron Lennon, Santi Cazrola, Nathan Dyer, Stephane Sessegnon are all a similar size and played at the top of the Premier League. There's dozens and dozens on the continent where they play a more technical game and don't rely on battering rams. None of those players are as lightweight as Holmes but hopefully he'll be able to put on the required muscle in order compete. Either that or he needs to work on his technique because from what I saw last season he was being swotted away like a fly by any opposition player who he got near. For that reason he was a passenger when it came to our defensive play which no team can afford to have for ninety minutes. Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Jul 23, 2014 10:31:35 GMT 1
Put a bit of muscle on Holmes as that will improve his game . Rump steak , odd guiness and make the most of Deans multi million pound investment by useing the canalside facilities to there full potential. raw egg and sherry
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jul 23, 2014 10:35:40 GMT 1
I agree - its a team game. Holmes could be accommodated but I can't see it being easy for him with the balance of midfield players we have. He is very talented. For him to hold down a regular place he is going to have to be exceptionally talented to compensate for his physical weakness. I can't quite see/name many players of his type thriving at high level (say above Div 1). Previous comparisons with Bremner/Collins etc on comparative smallness are ludicrous. I guess someone like Modric is the role model for him? Hope he becomes a great player for us though. Raheem Sterling, Leighton Baines, David Silva, Vurnon Anita, Aaron Lennon, Santi Cazrola, Nathan Dyer, Stephane Sessegnon are all a similar size and played at the top of the Premier League. There's dozens and dozens on the continent where they play a more technical game and don't rely on battering rams. I am sure we could all go on to list hundreds of successful footballers who have been absolutely brilliant. Listing all the succesful ones though does not support Holmes's cause. He is not built like the proverbial brick shite house we all know, we all know he has skills and abilities, what we need to see is proof that because of those skills and abilities, he can negate the difficulties which being of small stature inevitably bring. No-one is saying that small players are incapable of being good, or even great, players, but it must be clear to all that, without the ball, Holmes is a liability (at the moment) and that, when he does get the ball, there are times when he loses it too easily. We have all also seen though that when he gets the ball, keeps it and runs at defences, he can be a very useful player!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 13:02:50 GMT 1
Raheem Sterling, Leighton Baines, David Silva, Vurnon Anita, Aaron Lennon, Santi Cazrola, Nathan Dyer, Stephane Sessegnon are all a similar size and played at the top of the Premier League. There's dozens and dozens on the continent where they play a more technical game and don't rely on battering rams. None of those players are as lightweight as Holmes but hopefully he'll be able to put on the required muscle in order compete. Either that or he needs to work on his technique because from what I saw last season he was being swotted away like a fly by any opposition player who he got near. For that reason he was a passenger when it came to our defensive play which no team can afford to have for ninety minutes. Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards Here we go again... Lightweight and muscle. Anyone would think he was stepping into an Octagon and not onto a football field
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 13:13:46 GMT 1
Raheem Sterling, Leighton Baines, David Silva, Vurnon Anita, Aaron Lennon, Santi Cazrola, Nathan Dyer, Stephane Sessegnon are all a similar size and played at the top of the Premier League. There's dozens and dozens on the continent where they play a more technical game and don't rely on battering rams. I am sure we could all go on to list hundreds of successful footballers who have been absolutely brilliant. Listing all the succesful ones though does not support Holmes's cause. He is not built like the proverbial brick shite house we all know, we all know he has skills and abilities, what we need to see is proof that because of those skills and abilities, he can negate the difficulties which being of small stature inevitably bring. No-one is saying that small players are incapable of being good, or even great, players, but it must be clear to all that, without the ball, Holmes is a liability (at the moment) and that, when he does get the ball, there are times when he loses it too easily. We have all also seen though that when he gets the ball, keeps it and runs at defences, he can be a very useful player!! Have we seen any proof that without the ball he is a liability? All I've seen are substitute cameo's, often when we're chasing the game which requires him to stay further upfield. Think he only started 1 game where admittedly he froze. Firstly you say there are no decent small players above League 1, yet once this is disproved it doesn't matter... Why are people so quick to dismiss Holmes because of his lack of physicality, yet tolerate dozens of players who technically are no where near Duane? It's mostly about getting a blend in midfield, Duane can do things not a lot of other players can - it's a great trait for him and us. Slagging Duane off for his lack of physicality is akin to slagging Gerrard off because he can't run the ball out of defence. It's not what they do or revel at.. Sure Duane can and will get physically stronger which will help him in certain scenario's, but he's always going to be at the top end of the midfield dancing in and out of pockets of space. The day we start taking the likes of Duane Holmes, feeding him fish n chips and putting him on a strict gym regime of 5 sets of bench presses, squats and lat pulldowns is the day we should no longer be allowed to develop talent in this country.
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jul 23, 2014 13:49:47 GMT 1
I am sure we could all go on to list hundreds of successful footballers who have been absolutely brilliant. Listing all the succesful ones though does not support Holmes's cause. He is not built like the proverbial brick shite house we all know, we all know he has skills and abilities, what we need to see is proof that because of those skills and abilities, he can negate the difficulties which being of small stature inevitably bring. No-one is saying that small players are incapable of being good, or even great, players, but it must be clear to all that, without the ball, Holmes is a liability (at the moment) and that, when he does get the ball, there are times when he loses it too easily. We have all also seen though that when he gets the ball, keeps it and runs at defences, he can be a very useful player!! Have we seen any proof that without the ball he is a liability? All I've seen are substitute cameo's, often when we're chasing the game which requires him to stay further upfield. Think he only started 1 game where admittedly he froze. Firstly you say there are no decent small players above League 1, yet once this is disproved it doesn't matter... Why are people so quick to dismiss Holmes because of his lack of physicality, yet tolerate dozens of players who technically are no where near Duane? It's mostly about getting a blend in midfield, Duane can do things not a lot of other players can - it's a great trait for him and us. Slagging Duane off for his lack of physicality is akin to slagging Gerrard off because he can't run the ball out of defence. It's not what they do or revel at.. Sure Duane can and will get physically stronger which will help him in certain scenario's, but he's always going to be at the top end of the midfield dancing in and out of pockets of space. The day we start taking the likes of Duane Holmes, feeding him fish n chips and putting him on a strict gym regime of 5 sets of bench presses, squats and lat pulldowns is the day we should no longer be allowed to develop talent in this country. Woah, calm down Tiger!! 1 - Anyone who has seen him play knows he is liable to lose the ball and can't tackle for toffee. But you should be arguing that he doesn't need those abilities, because of his skills! 2 - "you say there are no decent small players above League 1" - I don't think I did. 3 - "slagging Duane off for his lack of physicality" - if you read the words, you will see I am actually saying that, given certain improvements, he is highly skilled and could well be an asset; a significant asset. Nowhere near slagging the lad off, lad. But..... he is no powerhouse for the side yet and as I did say in a different thread, we won't know for sure until he gets a few more games under his belt.
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Post by sadbuthopeful on Jul 23, 2014 14:39:08 GMT 1
I have seen all Duane's home appearances and to be fair to him we often bring him on when the experienced lot have failed us and heap pressure on him to make something happen. Most inexperienced youngsters would crumble under this ridiculous pressure but he has changed games in the championship....
For: - He's got the ability to know where to go off the ball and if anybody is in doubt you should watch him next time he comes on and then compare his movement to ANY other town midfielder over the last 20 years. He already has a superior 'football brain' to any of those players. - He picks it up and moves towards the opposition goal on instinct, looking for a killer pass to make a goal. Again compare that with anyone else over the last 20 years and especially our current group and he's already there. - He's got fantastic skills and can beat players (need I repeat the above)
Against: - He will get caught in possession as he plays a high risk style of the game trying to make goals - so you need some decent holding midfielders in the team - He can't tackle - so you need some decent holding midfielders in the team - He missed some good chances last year but remember this kid has been at town for c10 yrs so it might be quite a nervous moment to get the chance to score in a big game
The problem will be that alot of football fans in this country see a big hard tackle from a player and cheer but they DO NOT see or value off the ball movement. Luckily people within football do see that side of the game and hopefully we'll invest plenty of time in this guy and in a couple of years build a side round his style.
Just to qualify, I've discussed many of our players with people within the game and they're exited by Holmes - he's got a chance.
If Wells fulfils his potential he'll be at a mid table Premier League team, if Holmes fulfils his...well I better not get carried away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 14:53:32 GMT 1
Have we seen any proof that without the ball he is a liability? All I've seen are substitute cameo's, often when we're chasing the game which requires him to stay further upfield. Think he only started 1 game where admittedly he froze. Firstly you say there are no decent small players above League 1, yet once this is disproved it doesn't matter... Why are people so quick to dismiss Holmes because of his lack of physicality, yet tolerate dozens of players who technically are no where near Duane? It's mostly about getting a blend in midfield, Duane can do things not a lot of other players can - it's a great trait for him and us. Slagging Duane off for his lack of physicality is akin to slagging Gerrard off because he can't run the ball out of defence. It's not what they do or revel at.. Sure Duane can and will get physically stronger which will help him in certain scenario's, but he's always going to be at the top end of the midfield dancing in and out of pockets of space. The day we start taking the likes of Duane Holmes, feeding him fish n chips and putting him on a strict gym regime of 5 sets of bench presses, squats and lat pulldowns is the day we should no longer be allowed to develop talent in this country. Woah, calm down Tiger!! 1 - Anyone who has seen him play knows he is liable to lose the ball and can't tackle for toffee. But you should be arguing that he doesn't need those abilities, because of his skills! 2 - "you say there are no decent small players above League 1" - I don't think I did. 3 - "slagging Duane off for his lack of physicality" - if you read the words, you will see I am actually saying that, given certain improvements, he is highly skilled and could well be an asset; a significant asset. Nowhere near slagging the lad off, lad. But..... he is no powerhouse for the side yet and as I did say in a different thread, we won't know for sure until he gets a few more games under his belt. Calm as the sea my friend 1. I was.. 2. No fair point, Goodshot did (I think). 3. This was more towards the thread, not specifically you. Perhaps critiquing would have been a better term of phrase. Essentially I was trying to get across the point (which I think got lost in the ether) that a lot of fans over value the physical side of the game and Duane doesn't need to "bulk up" as he brings other things to the table. Although it looks like we're agreeing on that anyway
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 23, 2014 15:40:02 GMT 1
Woah, calm down Tiger!! 1 - Anyone who has seen him play knows he is liable to lose the ball and can't tackle for toffee. But you should be arguing that he doesn't need those abilities, because of his skills! 2 - "you say there are no decent small players above League 1" - I don't think I did. 3 - "slagging Duane off for his lack of physicality" - if you read the words, you will see I am actually saying that, given certain improvements, he is highly skilled and could well be an asset; a significant asset. Nowhere near slagging the lad off, lad. But..... he is no powerhouse for the side yet and as I did say in a different thread, we won't know for sure until he gets a few more games under his belt. Calm as the sea my friend 1. I was.. 2. No fair point, Goodshot did (I think). 3. This was more towards the thread, not specifically you. Perhaps critiquing would have been a better term of phrase. Essentially I was trying to get across the point (which I think got lost in the ether) that a lot of fans over value the physical side of the game and Duane doesn't need to "bulk up" as he brings other things to the table. Although it looks like we're agreeing on that anyway First time I saw Holmes and the little pass that set off Vaughan v Blackpool - I thought that's a David Silva type pass. He has a huge amount of development to do before he can play that type of role for Town - not the least because he doesn't have Ya Ya plus 1 playing behind him. As I said you have to have a better balanced midfield than ours to accommodate this type of player. Apologies if I came across as smallist.
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jul 23, 2014 16:06:46 GMT 1
Woah, calm down Tiger!! 1 - Anyone who has seen him play knows he is liable to lose the ball and can't tackle for toffee. But you should be arguing that he doesn't need those abilities, because of his skills! 2 - "you say there are no decent small players above League 1" - I don't think I did. 3 - "slagging Duane off for his lack of physicality" - if you read the words, you will see I am actually saying that, given certain improvements, he is highly skilled and could well be an asset; a significant asset. Nowhere near slagging the lad off, lad. But..... he is no powerhouse for the side yet and as I did say in a different thread, we won't know for sure until he gets a few more games under his belt. Calm as the sea my friend 1. I was.. 2. No fair point, Goodshot did (I think). 3. This was more towards the thread, not specifically you. Perhaps critiquing would have been a better term of phrase. Essentially I was trying to get across the point (which I think got lost in the ether) that a lot of fans over value the physical side of the game and Duane doesn't need to "bulk up" as he brings other things to the table. Although it looks like we're agreeing on that anyway I know - disappointing in a way - we like a little excitement in our lives?!!
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jul 23, 2014 16:07:46 GMT 1
Calm as the sea my friend 1. I was.. 2. No fair point, Goodshot did (I think). 3. This was more towards the thread, not specifically you. Perhaps critiquing would have been a better term of phrase. Essentially I was trying to get across the point (which I think got lost in the ether) that a lot of fans over value the physical side of the game and Duane doesn't need to "bulk up" as he brings other things to the table. Although it looks like we're agreeing on that anyway First time I saw Holmes and the little pass that set off Vaughan v Blackpool - I thought that's a David Silva type pass. He has a huge amount of development to do before he can play that type of role for Town - not the least because he doesn't have Ya Ya plus 1 playing behind him. As I said you have to have a better balanced midfield than ours to accommodate this type of player. Apologies if I came across as smallist. That's very big of you!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 16:22:04 GMT 1
Calm as the sea my friend 1. I was.. 2. No fair point, Goodshot did (I think). 3. This was more towards the thread, not specifically you. Perhaps critiquing would have been a better term of phrase. Essentially I was trying to get across the point (which I think got lost in the ether) that a lot of fans over value the physical side of the game and Duane doesn't need to "bulk up" as he brings other things to the table. Although it looks like we're agreeing on that anyway First time I saw Holmes and the little pass that set off Vaughan v Blackpool - I thought that's a David Silva type pass. He has a huge amount of development to do before he can play that type of role for Town - not the least because he doesn't have Ya Ya plus 1 playing behind him. As I said you have to have a better balanced midfield than ours to accommodate this type of player. Apologies if I came across as smallist. Maybe I'm a sympathiser with those with the Napoleon Complex. I agree about the blend as well, you won't get the best out of our midfield with Holmes, Clayton and Norwood being the 3. Even Barcelona have Busquets sitting. This is why I quietly think Andrews would be a good signing... Besides Billing is the new Yaya
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Post by swollentoe on Jul 25, 2014 22:37:25 GMT 1
Can anything be read into Duane playing tonight for the development squad and not tomorrows game at scunny ?
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Post by BoltonTerrier on Jul 25, 2014 22:51:45 GMT 1
Can anything be read into Duane playing tonight for the development squad and not tomorrows game at scunny ? Yeah. I can read the fact he was the best player on the pitch by a country mile. So much time on the ball..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 23:26:28 GMT 1
Can anything be read into Duane playing tonight for the development squad and not tomorrows game at scunny ? Yeah. I can read the fact he was the best player on the pitch by a country mile. So much time on the ball.. Something doesn't seem right though. Any time Robins is interviewed about Holmes he always has to follow a positive comment with a negative (a bit like my posts on here) He seems to slag Holmes off for his work or apparent lack of it when we don't have the ball. Yet hardly anyone in the squad can be pat on the back for it but you rarely hear robins single anyone else out for it like he does with Holmes. Shame really, I'd be building the team around him and giving him a free role behind the strikers
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Post by Detective Boyle on Jul 25, 2014 23:53:54 GMT 1
A lot of views on this thread epitomise exactly why this country is shit at football. Seems to be an English view that brawn is a NECESSITY. Get your heads out your arses.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 26, 2014 0:31:55 GMT 1
A lot of views on this thread epitomise exactly why this country is shit at football. Seems to be an English view that brawn is a NECESSITY. Get your heads out your arses. Have you ever played football? Just think on about what stopped you and/or your team from going up to the next level. For most of us its because the lads at the next level up could run quicker and for longer. Its as simple as that as far as I can see with my head up my arse. On the arse theme even Wenger looks at the physicality of players first and if they can't match the physical requirements of Premiership level football they don't get in to his set up. Ask yourself why Gary Roberts didn't make it any higher than he did - as you won't find many more skilful players in the FL.
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Post by sapphireblue on Jul 26, 2014 0:59:38 GMT 1
Can anything be read into Duane playing tonight for the development squad and not tomorrows game at scunny ? Yeah. I can read the fact he was the best player on the pitch by a country mile. So much time on the ball.. Weirdly that is exactly what I thought too. (But I loved the way Bunn did the unexpected, and Jake Charles did the only brilliant piece of play in the whole game) (Bastards kept the only real bar shut to the public so I watched the whole game sober)
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Post by BoltonTerrier on Jul 26, 2014 1:10:18 GMT 1
Yeah. I can read the fact he was the best player on the pitch by a country mile. So much time on the ball.. Weirdly that is exactly what I thought too. (But I loved the way Bunn did the unexpected, and Jake Charles did the only brilliant piece of play in the whole game) (Bastards kept the only real bar shut to the public so I watched the whole game sober) You could nip out round the back and get one and come back in. That weird disco was very weird..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 8:12:18 GMT 1
A lot of views on this thread epitomise exactly why this country is shit at football. Seems to be an English view that brawn is a NECESSITY. Get your heads out your arses. Have you ever played football? Just think on about what stopped you and/or your team from going up to the next level. For most of us its because the lads at the next level up could run quicker and for longer. Its as simple as that as far as I can see with my head up my arse. On the arse theme even Wenger looks at the physicality of players first and if they can't match the physical requirements of Premiership level football they don't get in to his set up. Ask yourself why Gary Roberts didn't make it any higher than he did - as you won't find many more skilful players in the FL. But then on the flip side, i could give you hundreds of examples of players who are no bigger, quicker or stronger than Holmes but played at the highest level for many years
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 26, 2014 10:33:40 GMT 1
Have you ever played football? Just think on about what stopped you and/or your team from going up to the next level. For most of us its because the lads at the next level up could run quicker and for longer. Its as simple as that as far as I can see with my head up my arse. On the arse theme even Wenger looks at the physicality of players first and if they can't match the physical requirements of Premiership level football they don't get in to his set up. Ask yourself why Gary Roberts didn't make it any higher than he did - as you won't find many more skilful players in the FL. But then on the flip side, i could give you hundreds of examples of players who are no bigger, quicker or stronger than Holmes but played at the highest level for many years I can't. From what I've seen of Holmes at Championship level (I guess about the same as most Town fans) he's got a decent pass and can shimmy past a couple. I've seen him lose the ball with a poor pass or cough up possession probably on a similar ratio to Hogg. I truly hope he turns out to be the next David Silva and I think he is being handled well by Robins/Town and talk of building a team around him are premature - if not plain wrong.
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