Tinpot
Mental Health Support Group
I'm really tinpot
Posts: 21,941
|
Post by Tinpot on Oct 24, 2014 13:43:00 GMT 1
I think what Galpharm is saying is this: 1. Any young female ought to be able to get herself completely drunk and head to a hotel room with a man she's never met before, take her clothes off, and get into bed, without that man or any of his friends taking advantage of her. 2. Just because she ought to be able to do that, doesn't mean it's a good idea. This is how I see Galpharms posts too, can't really understand why he is getting slaughtered for it. As I have mentioned before, I got caught up in one of these situations where both parties were leathered and a completely bogus allegation was made against me for the trivial reason that the woman involved didn't want to upset her friend, the police advice afterwards was along the lines of "maybe take it a bit easier on nights out and make better decisions", as the "victim" in that case I took their advice on board. Why is it so wrong to offer that advice when the tables are turned? And as for his Auntie, who cares what she thinks? ?? It's not wrong to advise your daughters (and sons) to take care of themselves - but it is wrong for people to take advantage of those who are vulnerable. Even if they're vulnerable because of their own misjudgement. Are you putting forward the case that the woman you allude to did nothing wrong? Are you condoning her behaviour on the grounds that you'd had a few to drink? Bottom line - IMO, you did NOTHING wrong. You got a bit pissed and put yourself in a vulnerable position, she took advantage of that. She is the guilty party - 100% - just as Ched Evans is the guilty party, 100%. Not all issues are black & white, but your case is, and so is Ched Evans'.
|
|
Tinpot
Mental Health Support Group
I'm really tinpot
Posts: 21,941
|
Post by Tinpot on Oct 24, 2014 13:47:12 GMT 1
You appear to feel his guilty, it appears black and white to you no matter what. At the minute he is guilty, the law says that, but in your eyes will he be innocent if his appeal is successful or are you just pissed off with his attitude to women? Which I'll admit is reprehensible. I also assume that he is guilty, because despite being accused of one of the most difficult crimes to prosecute, and having access to some of the best legal representation money can buy - he was still found guilty in a court of law. If he appeals and is successful, then it will depend what information comes out of that appeal as to what I think of him.
|
|
|
Post by Barbieterrier on Oct 24, 2014 13:51:43 GMT 1
You appear to feel his guilty, it appears black and white to you no matter what. At the minute he is guilty, the law says that, but in your eyes will he be innocent if his appeal is successful or are you just pissed off with his attitude to women? Which I'll admit is reprehensible. I also assume that he is guilty, because despite being accused of one of the most difficult crimes to prosecute, and having access to some of the best legal representation money can buy - he was still found guilty in a court of law. If he appeals and is successful, then it will depend what information comes out of that appeal as to what I think of him. Spot on
|
|
|
Post by lochnessterrier on Oct 24, 2014 14:56:52 GMT 1
I reckon at the end of the day if Evans wants to play football again he's going to have to learn another language. No club in the UK will touch him because they won't want the bad publicity.
|
|
|
Post by Chips Longhorn on Oct 24, 2014 15:21:25 GMT 1
I reckon at the end of the day if Evans wants to play football again he's going to have to learn another language. No club in the UK will touch him because they won't want the bad publicity. I kind of agree with you... There is gonna be a right shit storm if he takes the field over here again
|
|
|
Post by Barbieterrier on Oct 24, 2014 15:23:16 GMT 1
I reckon at the end of the day if Evans wants to play football again he's going to have to learn another language. No club in the UK will touch him because they won't want the bad publicity. I kind of agree with you... There is gonna be a right shit storm if he takes the field over here again Well i know a lot of people will disagree with me here, but i really hope you are right.
|
|
jasonhand
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,971
|
Post by jasonhand on Oct 24, 2014 15:30:07 GMT 1
He can go and play for Las Palmas in Gran Canaria. He can have his holiday at the same time then
|
|
|
Post by galpharm2400 on Oct 24, 2014 16:59:45 GMT 1
last one..
never said its acceptable to take advantage of drunk people. read the posts..
its not acceptable to take criminal or other ill intended advantages over anyone just because you can.
its obvious that criminals of all types are taking advantage of drunk/incapable people and its becoming more and more prevelant.
easy targets are easy targets, whatever anyone thinks and until society changes they will remain so.
I never condoned Evans and I have never condoned criminals , nothing in my posts even goes close to it. I have never said he wasn't guilty, a court/jury said he was. There would seem to be enough grey areas for an appeal and lots of people who have great experience of this type of incident/crime have made comment as such. Ignoring their views wont make them go away.
Accepting that criminals are out there and are actively targeting the drunk/incapable (increasingly the elderly) in no way accepts their right to exist and I am increasingly frustrated in the laws/social programmes that allow them to pass off responsibility for their actions.
Until we remove the freedoms of these people to commit further crime we simply have to accept more responsibility for our own actions that encourage these bastards and assist them to commit easy crimes, that's all.
Having seen murder and rape and every other crime imaginable almost on an industrial scale in a few places around the world I found that the people it was happening to finally stood up and took responsibility for themselves to stop it happening, they couldn't count on us we had too many rules/observers and press and vested interests. Its a much smaller scale here but the principle is the same, start by being responsible for you and yours and every proper person start causing holy hell when the state does not back you up.
|
|
Tinpot
Mental Health Support Group
I'm really tinpot
Posts: 21,941
|
Post by Tinpot on Oct 25, 2014 0:20:01 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by lankystreak on Nov 11, 2014 11:19:43 GMT 1
|
|
ram
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,443
|
Post by ram on Nov 11, 2014 11:51:22 GMT 1
Sheffield Utd. ready to replace Leeds as the most despised club in Britain (Europe?) ??
|
|
|
Post by gledholt terrier on Nov 11, 2014 15:18:15 GMT 1
Sheffield Utd. ready to replace Leeds as the most despised club in Britain (Europe?) ?? They could pair up Brady and Sutcliffe in central defence and still not take that title from Leeds
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 16:34:28 GMT 1
He seems like a twat, who has committed an appalling act and shows absolute zero remorse.
But...
He's served his time and has to be free to apply his trade. No question about him being banned from the game. Unpalatable though it may be. Still, I'm sure the terraces will leave him in doubt about the prevailing public opinion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 16:55:06 GMT 1
There is a campaign Jean Hatchet/change.org if anybody is interested-see below
It’s with great sadness that I tell you that Sheffield United have announced that Ched Evans, convicted of raping a 19 year old woman in 2012, is to return to training with them later this week.
Over 150,000 people - including you - signed my petition for Ched Evans not to be resigned and now we need to act. Please send a tweet to Adidas who sponsor Sheffield United's kit. Tell them not to let a convicted rapist wear their logo.
Evans has shown no remorse for his crime. He has not apologised to his victim. Meanwhile she is still suffering and still in hiding.
Sheffield United are encouraging people to see that a rapist who has not served his full sentence, is totally unrepentant of his crime and who does not understand the issues of obtaining a woman’s consent for sex, will still be allowed to return to his former privileged position. Victims of rape, just like his victim, have no such easy return to their former life. They live with it forever.
We need to take a stand and make it clear to Sheffield United that it sends a terrible message to put Ched Evans onto the pitch in front of young men who need a clear message of what rape is and what the consequences will be.
Please take a moment to send a tweet to Adidas who sponsor Sheffield United's kit. Sheffield United cannot ignore their sponsors.
If you are not on Twitter you can post to Adidas' Facebook page here. Just comment underneath any of their posts.
The abuse I have received throughout the campaign, and still receive on a daily basis, is clear evidence that attitudes towards rape are still in dire need of education. Sheffield United must play their part in that
|
|
|
Post by shawsie on Nov 11, 2014 17:51:30 GMT 1
There is a campaign Jean Hatchet/change.org if anybody is interested-see below It’s with great sadness that I tell you that Sheffield United have announced that Ched Evans, convicted of raping a 19 year old woman in 2012, is to return to training with them later this week. Over 150,000 people - including you - signed my petition for Ched Evans not to be resigned and now we need to act. Please send a tweet to Adidas who sponsor Sheffield United's kit. Tell them not to let a convicted rapist wear their logo. Evans has shown no remorse for his crime. He has not apologised to his victim. Meanwhile she is still suffering and still in hiding. Sheffield United are encouraging people to see that a rapist who has not served his full sentence, is totally unrepentant of his crime and who does not understand the issues of obtaining a woman’s consent for sex, will still be allowed to return to his former privileged position. Victims of rape, just like his victim, have no such easy return to their former life. They live with it forever. We need to take a stand and make it clear to Sheffield United that it sends a terrible message to put Ched Evans onto the pitch in front of young men who need a clear message of what rape is and what the consequences will be. Please take a moment to send a tweet to Adidas who sponsor Sheffield United's kit. Sheffield United cannot ignore their sponsors. If you are not on Twitter you can post to Adidas' Facebook page here. Just comment underneath any of their posts. The abuse I have received throughout the campaign, and still receive on a daily basis, is clear evidence that attitudes towards rape are still in dire need of education. Sheffield United must play their part in that In no way do i condone the actions of Ched Evans, but i find the witchhunt here totally distasteful! What do you expect him to do?? He has served a custodial sentence as dictated by a judge and the "system" now deems him fit for release - that should be the end of it.... "done the crime and served the time", or do we take the same attitude to all convicted felons and leave them to rot on the scrapheap and claiming benefits because no employer will touch them. The "privileged position" you quote here is most certainly the case financially, but he will suffer the social stigma and dogs abuse every time he plays..............and at present an appeal is still ongoing. Do you write to all employers of convicted rapists telling them they should not support their employees who might be totally repentant for past actions and have served whatever prison time has been allocated for the crime committed? Young men know what the consequences of rape are.....banning Ched Evans from playing football wont change it one jot! I would reiterate i dont condone the actions of Evans and the other player whose name escapes me in any way..........but the justice system is what needs changing here if the actions were so foul that they warranted a sentence of 2/3 years only surely?
|
|
|
Post by bro600 on Nov 11, 2014 19:27:12 GMT 1
There is a campaign Jean Hatchet/change.org if anybody is interested-see below It’s with great sadness that I tell you that Sheffield United have announced that Ched Evans, convicted of raping a 19 year old woman in 2012, is to return to training with them later this week. Over 150,000 people - including you - signed my petition for Ched Evans not to be resigned and now we need to act. Please send a tweet to Adidas who sponsor Sheffield United's kit. Tell them not to let a convicted rapist wear their logo. Evans has shown no remorse for his crime. He has not apologised to his victim. Meanwhile she is still suffering and still in hiding. Sheffield United are encouraging people to see that a rapist who has not served his full sentence, is totally unrepentant of his crime and who does not understand the issues of obtaining a woman’s consent for sex, will still be allowed to return to his former privileged position. Victims of rape, just like his victim, have no such easy return to their former life. They live with it forever. We need to take a stand and make it clear to Sheffield United that it sends a terrible message to put Ched Evans onto the pitch in front of young men who need a clear message of what rape is and what the consequences will be. Please take a moment to send a tweet to Adidas who sponsor Sheffield United's kit. Sheffield United cannot ignore their sponsors. If you are not on Twitter you can post to Adidas' Facebook page here. Just comment underneath any of their posts. The abuse I have received throughout the campaign, and still receive on a daily basis, is clear evidence that attitudes towards rape are still in dire need of education. Sheffield United must play their part in that In no way do i condone the actions of Ched Evans, but i find the witchhunt here totally distasteful! What do you expect him to do?? He has served a custodial sentence as dictated by a judge and the "system" now deems him fit for release - that should be the end of it.... "done the crime and served the time", or do we take the same attitude to all convicted felons and leave them to rot on the scrapheap and claiming benefits because no employer will touch them. The "privileged position" you quote here is most certainly the case financially, but he will suffer the social stigma and dogs abuse every time he plays..............and at present an appeal is still ongoing. Do you write to all employers of convicted rapists telling them they should not support their employees who might be totally repentant for past actions and have served whatever prison time has been allocated for the crime committed? Young men know what the consequences of rape are.....banning Ched Evans from playing football wont change it one jot! I would reiterate i dont condone the actions of Evans and the other player whose name escapes me in any way..........but the justice system is what needs changing here if the actions were so foul that they warranted a sentence of 2/3 years only surely? You find the witch hunt on here distasteful? What about his website cronies who have encouraged a witch hunt against his victim? Ched Evans has served his time... GRANTED...But take Ched Evans out of the equation and take the crime into consideration..Then ask yourself how society is going to change the shape of thinking in modern day footballers or show business stars? Society as to start somewhere and hopefully football will close the "easy path" back into a decent lifestyle for high profile footballers/sportsmen who think that they are above the law.. For the sake of future footballers and their potential victims i hope the loudness and velocity of your so-called witch hunt makes a difference and i for one am glad that for once some members of society have been willing to shout out...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 19:52:04 GMT 1
The point is though...can a bloke who has served the sentence he was given be denied employment by a governing body on his release? The answer had to be no. The clubs themselves could not give him a contract but whilst he is capable of scoring goals he will be courted by some chairmen.
I have no doubt he was on a fair whack when he was convicted. Equally, if he re-signs for Sheffield Utd, the same chairman would sense a bargain and offer him a fraction of that now.
His crime was heinous, his actions since contemptuous and I would be disgusted if we signed him. But that is up to the clubs at an individual level, not the FA. Lee Hughes is the precedent here. I'd be very surprised if he isn't playing by the Xmas fixtures.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 19:53:37 GMT 1
The point is though... can a bloke who has served the sentence he was given be denied employment by a governing body on his release? The answer had to be no. The clubs themselves could not give him a contract but whilst he is capable of scoring goals he will be courted by some chairmen. I have no doubt he was on a fair whack when he was convicted. Equally, if he re-signs for Sheffield Utd, the same chairman would sense a bargain and offer him a fraction of that now. His crime was heinous, his actions since contemptuous and I would be disgusted if we signed him. But that is up to the clubs at an individual level, not the FA. Lee Hughes is the precedent here. I'd be very surprised if he isn't playing by the Xmas fixtures. It's done every day in the care industry.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 20:10:32 GMT 1
We aren't talking about a CRB check or a public safety/ competency issue. His conviction and employment are entirely unrelated. It would be more pertinent to have banned Duncan Ferguson on his release in case he smashed another defender's eye socket!
I admit, I feel uncomfortable 'fighting his corner' but the law deems once a sentence is served the perpetrator is free to live their life according to the terms of their license and the laws of the land.
The FA has no legal right to remove his livelihood. Morals do not come into it. Clubs have a moral choice not to employ him. But that is their choice. I'd like to see every club shun him and he not kick a ball professionally again, but that has to be down to owner's to weigh up their conscience and ambition.
|
|
|
Post by bro600 on Nov 11, 2014 20:15:52 GMT 1
Too many times the law and society point out precedents to justify someones rights and slowly but surely the morals and principles of society get eroded and the boundaries of decency get stretched.
The law needs revisiting and changing to protect young footballers and victims alike and sex offenders should be banned from plying their trade in any high profile position.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 20:19:16 GMT 1
We aren't talking about a CRB check or a public safety/ competency issue. His conviction and employment are entirely unrelated. It would be more pertinent to have banned Duncan Ferguson on his release in case he smashed another defender's eye socket! I admit, I feel uncomfortable 'fighting his corner' but the law deems once a sentence is served the perpetrator is free to live their life according to the terms of their license and the laws of the land. The FA has no legal right to remove his livelihood. Morals do not come into it. Clubs have a moral choice not to employ him. But that is their choice. I'd like to see every club shun him and he not kick a ball professionally again, but that has to be down to owner's to weigh up their conscience and ambition. I'm not sure a thirty year old assault conviction should preclude someone working in a care home, but they're the rules. I'm only making the point that there are numerous fields in which those with convictions would be prevented from working that's purely regulatory, not judicial. I would say whether his conviction and his resumption of his status as public figure of adoration are related is a personal opinion. I'm honestly not sure.
|
|
|
Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 11, 2014 20:21:05 GMT 1
We aren't talking about a CRB check or a public safety/ competency issue. His conviction and employment are entirely unrelated. It would be more pertinent to have banned Duncan Ferguson on his release in case he smashed another defender's eye socket! I admit, I feel uncomfortable 'fighting his corner' but the law deems once a sentence is served the perpetrator is free to live their life according to the terms of their license and the laws of the land. The FA has no legal right to remove his livelihood. Morals do not come into it. Clubs have a moral choice not to employ him. But that is their choice. I'd like to see every club shun him and he not kick a ball professionally again, but that has to be down to owner's to weigh up their conscience and ambition. We aren't talking about a CRB check or a public safety/ competency issue. No one has banned him His conviction and employment are entirely unrelated .. Maybe/maybe not. Id be surprised if Jimmy Savile had presented Jim ll Fix it again if he had been sent down for shenanigans at Stoke Mandeville (mind you it was the seventies) Morals do not come into it. Clubs have a moral choice not to employ him you appear to have contradicted yourself.. But yes it seems clubs are exercising their choice. Im still not sure he will play for Sheff Utd just yet I'd like to see every club shun him and he not kick a ball professionally again agreed
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 20:23:21 GMT 1
Too many times the law and society point out precedents to justify someones rights and slowly but surely the morals and principles of society get eroded and the boundaries of decency get stretched. The law needs revisiting and changing to protect young footballers and victims alike and sex offenders should be banned from plying their trade in any high profile position. Define high profile? Musician, journalist, politician, CEO? It's unworkable at a legislative level. The Football League could ask Chairmen to voluntarily sign up to a code of ethics agreement but someone would break cover. The best we can hope for is a Sheffield Utd player smashed his legs to bits in training. Problem solved.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 20:28:18 GMT 1
We aren't talking about a CRB check or a public safety/ competency issue. His conviction and employment are entirely unrelated. It would be more pertinent to have banned Duncan Ferguson on his release in case he smashed another defender's eye socket! I admit, I feel uncomfortable 'fighting his corner' but the law deems once a sentence is served the perpetrator is free to live their life according to the terms of their license and the laws of the land. The FA has no legal right to remove his livelihood. Morals do not come into it. Clubs have a moral choice not to employ him. But that is their choice. I'd like to see every club shun him and he not kick a ball professionally again, but that has to be down to owner's to weigh up their conscience and ambition. We aren't talking about a CRB check or a public safety/ competency issue. No one has banned him His conviction and employment are entirely unrelated .. Maybe/maybe not. Id be surprised if Jimmy Savile had presented Jim ll Fix it again if he had been sent down for shenanigans at Stoke Mandeville (mind you it was the seventies) Morals do not come into it. Clubs have a moral choice not to employ him you appear to have contradicted yourself.. But yes it seems clubs are exercising their choice. Im still not sure he will play for Sheff Utd just yet I'd like to see every club shun him and he not kick a ball professionally again agreed I'm saying he cannot be banned - as some have wished. Savile would undoubtedly have not worked with kids if it was known he was a bit rapey. Morals cannot come into the FA's position as they are constrained by legal matters, but can be considered by the club's by choosing not to employ him. Common ground. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by huddstim on Nov 11, 2014 20:39:05 GMT 1
In no way do i condone the actions of Ched Evans, but i find the witchhunt here totally distasteful! What do you expect him to do?? He has served a custodial sentence as dictated by a judge and the "system" now deems him fit for release - that should be the end of it.... "done the crime and served the time", or do we take the same attitude to all convicted felons and leave them to rot on the scrapheap and claiming benefits because no employer will touch them. The "privileged position" you quote here is most certainly the case financially, but he will suffer the social stigma and dogs abuse every time he plays..............and at present an appeal is still ongoing. Do you write to all employers of convicted rapists telling them they should not support their employees who might be totally repentant for past actions and have served whatever prison time has been allocated for the crime committed? Young men know what the consequences of rape are.....banning Ched Evans from playing football wont change it one jot! I would reiterate i dont condone the actions of Evans and the other player whose name escapes me in any way..........but the justice system is what needs changing here if the actions were so foul that they warranted a sentence of 2/3 years only surely? You find the witch hunt on here distasteful? What about his website cronies who have encouraged a witch hunt against his victim? Ched Evans has served his time... GRANTED...But take Ched Evans out of the equation and take the crime into consideration..Then ask yourself how society is going to change the shape of thinking in modern day footballers or show business stars? Society as to start somewhere and hopefully football will close the "easy path" back into a decent lifestyle for high profile footballers/sportsmen who think that they are above the law.. For the sake of future footballers and their potential victims i hope the loudness and velocity of your so-called witch hunt makes a difference and i for one am glad that for once some members of society have been willing to shout out...
|
|
|
Post by bro600 on Nov 11, 2014 20:40:35 GMT 1
Too many times the law and society point out precedents to justify someones rights and slowly but surely the morals and principles of society get eroded and the boundaries of decency get stretched. The law needs revisiting and changing to protect young footballers and victims alike and sex offenders should be banned from plying their trade in any high profile position. Define high profile? Musician, journalist, politician, CEO? It's unworkable at a legislative level. The Football League could ask Chairmen to voluntarily sign up to a code of ethics agreement but someone would break cover. The best we can hope for is a Sheffield Utd player smashed his legs to bits in training. Problem solved. High Profile ...A position that attracts a lot of interest either in the press or on public platform..
|
|
|
Post by huddstim on Nov 11, 2014 20:53:38 GMT 1
He has served his time, but that doesn't mean he should be welcomed back in to football. The crime is not spent, and any employer can take it in to account when deciding whether to employ him. A convicted rapist who shows no remorse is an appalling role model. It is disgraceful for Sheffield United to take him back now. If he needs a job, I'm sure his millionaire father in law can find him one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 21:02:36 GMT 1
He has served his time, but that doesn't mean he should be welcomed back in to football. The crime is not spent, and any employer can take it in to account when deciding whether to employ him. A convicted rapist who shows no remorse is an appalling role model. It is disgraceful for Sheffield United to take him back now. If he needs a job, I'm sure his millionaire father in law can find him one. That's the get out - the FA could argue no player on license can play as their conviction is not spent. Doubt they'd have the balls though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 21:04:51 GMT 1
Define high profile? Musician, journalist, politician, CEO? It's unworkable at a legislative level. The Football League could ask Chairmen to voluntarily sign up to a code of ethics agreement but someone would break cover. The best we can hope for is a Sheffield Utd player smashed his legs to bits in training. Problem solved. High Profile ...A position that attracts a lot of interest either in the press or on public platform.. I'm honestly not trying to argue but demographics are so varied. Should a convicted rapist be allowed on X Factor or to be in a board room? I dare say readers of the Star and FT have hugely conflicting views on what makes a newsworthy profile.
|
|
|
Post by stevvy on Nov 11, 2014 21:07:14 GMT 1
The FL have said (quite rightly) that if any club chooses to apply to register him with their club, they'd have no option but to accept the registration. As they say, it's for individual clubs to make a decision on whether he plays again, not them.
|
|