|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 13:15:22 GMT 1
Turning into a good thread this, nothing groundbreaking like, we've been here before but it's a good argument.
|
|
|
Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Nov 23, 2014 13:16:01 GMT 1
I agree, he wasn't. But an awareness of why that old trope would piss off Jews doesn't call for a PhD in history. We had Jew lynchings by the blackshirts in this country within Whelan's lifetime. He's just a silly old man, and like a lot of successful men has a tendency to fervently believe in the rightness of his own views. He's just out of kilter with the social norms on this one. My grandfather used to tell me pakis were all lazy and didn't know what soap was - that wasn't controversial once either. This is so true ..... Reminds me of a poster on here.... Leads to the attitude of " if you investigate me as you would investigate anyone else ill throw my teddies out of the pram and quit" If Wigan hadn't of gone down he was going to quit I think he wants out
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 13:19:32 GMT 1
Lets be clear, pretty much every educated adult in Britain will have heard of the holocaust, but the majority will not understand the details of why jews were killed in horrendous numbers. You clearly have a good knowledge and understanding of the history but most people don't. As I say, Whelan is not trying to make connections with Nazis and gas chambers with his comments. Of course he isn't ... But he is perpetuating racial stereotype. Like if he had said " I don't think there is owt wrong with saying all them nig nogs love eating bananas " I don't see Whelan as a guy with any intrinsic malice towards Jews or Chinese . He's been a bit stupid IMO. But he's 78 and a lot of it is generational . I don't think it's like saying that at all, and I think you're being slightly dramatic in your comparisons Ted, with respect. Lets put it this way, Guy Ritchie makes a film and stereotypes Jews, its perfectly acceptable to do that of course it is, but you wouldn't expect him to then have all the black actors in the film being referred to as nig nogs and stood around eating bananas.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 13:20:17 GMT 1
Not very nicely, I would think. Having lived in the wrong side of Israel's territory, I'm also keenly aware that some Israeli Jews are the most racist people around. It still doesn't really affect a debate about our national discourse. Why use words that some people hate? It's just not very nice behaviour. Chink is a reference to their eyes by the way, not a contraction. Who's decided this then, because up until last week when I would quite happily and unwittingly ask the wife if she fancied a "chinky" for tea? I've being of the understanding that it was short for Chinese, that's the way I've always perceived it for the last 40 years, but it appears I am now wrong because somebody on the Chinese Peoples Leadership Council tells me so?? I use the phrase myself... But not when Mr Lau was round fixing my oven. That's only one possible derivation, admittedly. I don't think Chinky contains a racist connotation (the peoples republic of the BBC allows its use in TV programmes.) But using Chink as an epithet does.
|
|
|
Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 23, 2014 13:20:30 GMT 1
This is so true ..... Reminds me of a poster on here.... Leads to the attitude of " if you investigate me as you would investigate anyone else ill throw my teddies out of the pram and quit" Oooo, name and shame Ted, name and shame. My money's on Hilly. There are 2400 reasons its not Hilly .. He isn't averse to teddy throwing though..... To be fair neither are you
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 13:22:53 GMT 1
Life's to short to be spent offended by words.we have bigger problems than name calling You should have seen some of the stuff I had thrown at me after the match yesterday on facebook.
|
|
|
Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 23, 2014 13:23:13 GMT 1
This debate comes around regularly and always has the implication that Britain, its people and its institutions are intrinsically racist. Well yes, by their very nature all peoples are, its tribal, a defence mechanism. All peoples and cultures naturally believe that their way is the best, righteous, the truth, somewhat superior. Its simply what you know and grow up with like your native tongue. Instead of rehashing muck because a harmless old boy says "Chink" we should be pointing fingers at Sunnis killing Shias, Al Shabab murdering Christian Kenyans on buses, Pakistanis throwing acid on their daughters for falling in love. Those are stories, thats real persecution. Britons have (mostly) embraced foreigners and immigrants since Alfred the Great made peace with the Danes. As much as we supposedly hate foreigners they keep coming, no matter how terribly racist we are they are somehow welcomed. Jews and Chinese are also some of my least favourite people, the reasons are mine and based on experience, should i be vilified for saying that? Prosecuted? Made to stand down? Sticks and stones will break my bones.....
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 13:29:10 GMT 1
He isn't averse to teddy throwing though..... To be fair neither are you To be fair I wouldn't be able to throw you very far. Mel's spot on with your overly dramatic comparisons IMO, you were doing it in the Ched thread. Not criticising, we all have our debating styles and flaws. 2400 is a good poster IMO, don't agree with everything he says but when he nails it he nails it. End of the day he adds to the forum, people who contribute positively will always get my respect.
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 13:30:17 GMT 1
You should have seen some of the stuff I had thrown at me after the match yesterday on facebook. Why?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 13:37:12 GMT 1
You should have seen some of the stuff I had thrown at me after the match yesterday on facebook. Why? I've no idea, comments have been deleted now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 13:39:13 GMT 1
What I see in this thread is a lot of people wilfully ignoring the context of what Whelan said. The word 'Chink' might not be offensive to you, a middle-aged white man, but that is not the point, is it? The point is that it is deeply offensive to many people in this country who are of South-East Asian origin, and that includes my partner, who was mercilessly bullied at school with that epithet, and who still has it thrown her way in the most unlikely of situations. If anybody had bothered to read the press release issued by Kick It Out, they would have noticed that it included an Asian man recounting how, when he was assaulted, the perpetrators shouted 'Chink' and 'Chinky'. It isn't acceptable to use words like Paki or Nigger, and rightly so, because they're words which have deep historical roots and which serve to dehumanise people on mass scale. Chink is no different, and Whelan should have known that by now because he is a grown man who operates a business in the public sphere.
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 13:42:08 GMT 1
I've no idea, comments have been deleted now. Strange that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 13:47:15 GMT 1
I've no idea, comments have been deleted now. Strange that. Nowt stranger than folk Pipes.
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 13:54:03 GMT 1
Nowt stranger than folk Pipes. Very true. Just thought you were one of the least likely to receive or indeed dish out online hate. Wondered if it was NSL related. Just being nosey.
|
|
|
Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 23, 2014 13:54:51 GMT 1
He isn't averse to teddy throwing though..... To be fair neither are you To be fair I wouldn't be able to throw you very far. Mel's spot on with your overly dramatic comparisons IMO, you were doing it in the Ched thread. Not criticising, we all have our debating styles and flaws. 2400 is a good poster IMO, don't agree with everything he says but when he nails it he nails it. End of the day he adds to the forum, people who contribute positively will always get my respect. I disagree vehemently re overly dramatic comparisons . Comparing Evans to BBC convicted paedos and comparing Treatment of Jews to treatment of blacks were completely the right reference points in my opinion. ..you may think 2400 is a good poster... I totally disagree but whether I rate him or not was not the issue.. The point was about that unshakable sense of being " right " and not being able to even contemplate that the opposing view may have valid points........ Oh hang on that's me too
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 13:56:08 GMT 1
Yep, we're all as bad.
Except Nick who's a law to himsen.
|
|
|
Post by AndySk on Nov 23, 2014 13:56:16 GMT 1
Words themselves arent racist (its just words) but its the manner and context in which they are being used.
Whelan clearly wasnt trying to be offensive, misguided aye but why should there be a witchhunt over that. Its gonna get to the point where journalists are gonna have to submit their questions first so the person answering them can have a day or two to correctly word the answer right in case they offend some soppy c***
|
|
|
Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 23, 2014 13:57:42 GMT 1
What I see in this thread is a lot of people wilfully ignoring the context of what Whelan said. The word 'Chink' might not be offensive to you, a middle-aged white man, but that is not the point, is it? The point is that it is deeply offensive to many people in this country who are of South-East Asian origin, and that includes my partner, who was mercilessly bullied at school with that epithet, and who still has it thrown her way in the most unlikely of situations. If anybody had bothered to read the press release issued by Kick It Out, they would have noticed that it included an Asian man recounting how, when he was assaulted, the perpetrators shouted 'Chink' and 'Chinky'. It isn't acceptable to use words like Paki or Nigger, and rightly so, because they're words which have deep historical roots and which serve to dehumanise people on mass scale. Chink is no different, and Whelan should have known that by now because he is a grown man who operates a business in the public sphere. Excellent post .. I wish I was as eloquent
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 14:02:54 GMT 1
The full transcript of BBC Sport's David Ornstein's interview with Dave Whelan The following exchange contains words you may find offensive. David Ornstein: Can you explain comments to David Conn in The Guardian?
Dave Whelan: "I was asked that question and I did say that the Jewish people chase money, but I also said that they chase money like the English people chase money. We all chase money because we work for it. Now, I wasn't being offensive to any Jewish… I have got thousands of Jewish friends, I would never want to offend one of my Jewish pals. I would never want to do that and, in this particular case, all I was trying to say was that Jewish people are very similar to the English people in the desire to work hard and get money. I didn't think that I did anything wrong in that."
DO: Did you say Jewish people chase money "more than" everybody else?
DW: "No. I did not say that the Jewish people chase money more than everyone else. I said that the Jewish people chase money just like we the English people chase money and I don't think there is anything wrong in chasing money because we work for it."
DO: Do you think the journalist has misquoted you?
DW: "I think he has misquoted me and if it is causing offence to anybody please accept my apology because I did not say that and I did not mean to insult any of my Jewish friends or any of the Jewish people. I have no hang-ups about people, I just get on with every single person, I just love the game of football and a lot of this comes about because we have to be careful what we say, but I always try and say and tell the truth."
DO: Do you accept there is a lot of controversy in response to your comments, that there may be people offending by your comments?
DW: "If there are Jewish people offended by what I have said, then I would apologise immediately and say I am sorry and did not mean offence to them. All my Jewish friends realise that I would never insult a Jewish person - I have no reason to. They are a great race of people. I do a lot of business with them. They are very honest people, hard-working people and I would never insult a Jewish person."
DO: Do you regret talking in that way at all?
DW: "No, I don't regret what I said. I always try and tell the truth. Sometimes when reporters.... and I must have had 50 reporters chasing me all day today... you can get a little flustered at times and you may say the wrong word or the wrong thing. If I have upset any single person, I apologise profusely. I do not intend to insult or upset any Jewish, any English or any person on the planet."
DO: There could be people who say a man in your position of power should no longer hold that position. What is your response?
DW: "That is a little unfair on me as I did not make these comments. If I have upset one person, I apologise. I did not mean to upset people. When you are interviewed... and I must have had 50 or 60 people interviewing me today... it is virtually impossible not to come out with some little statement or some word that is wrong. I would say to everybody, if I have upset any particular person, I did not meant to."
DO: Did you say: "If an Englishman said he has never called a Chinaman a chink, he is lying"?
DW: "What I said it this... there are all kinds of names given to people, given to the English, to the Scottish, to the Welsh, to the Irish, to the Chinese and there are all kinds of words given and used. People use these words a lot in common in various conversations, a lot of this talk goes on all around the world and people accept it and take it because I don't think that there is an insult meant. You know if someone called me a limey, I wouldn't take it as an insult. Am I'm English? Yes. Am I a limey? Yes. But I wouldn't be insulted by someone saying that to me. If somebody says to a Chinaman, 'you're a chink', would he be upset about it? I don't know really. If he was upset, I would say I am very sorry, I won't call you that again."
DO: Do you accept that use of the word chink is more offensive than national references?
DW: "I accept that totally, I would never call a Chinaman a chink personally, I don't use that kind of language, but other people do and you do hear it used. Everybody will say that, that they have heard that word used. It's not a word I would use anywhere in the world."
DO: Is there a growing problem with what language is acceptable and what is not?
DW: "It would appear that is the case now because what I have said... I had no intention whatsoever to upset any person in the world. Some people, if they are upset, I have said I apologise and say I am very sorry, I did not mean in what I said to upset one single person. Please accept my apology if they take it that way, it wasn't meant to be."
DO: Do you fear the repercussions of losing a sponsor over the appointment of Malky Mackay?
DW: "We don't like losing sponsors, we have to admit that, but it is their decision and it is a free country and they are allowed to do what they want to do. It being a free country, I also feel that Malky Mackay did something wrong, he apologised, he's had education on it, is a very honest guy and I don't think that he should be banned from football, like other people do. I think he should be entitled to another chance and I feel Wigan have given him that chance."
DO: You said you have read every one of the text messages... did the content of those messages sit comfortably with you?
DW: "No. He said wrong things. He said things that I would never personally use, that are unacceptable and I would agree with anybody who complains about what he said. I have spoken to him, discussed it with him and said this is totally unacceptable. He admits that he did it and he apologised to me and he apologised to the whole nation. He can only do that and I accepted his apology and I hope everybody else in the country accepts his apology and then we judge him on his future."
DO: If he is found guilty by the FA, what will you do?
DW: "The FA investigation is not concluded, we've not had a result on it and a lot depends on what they say. Hopefully, they will forgive him. If they fine him, whatever, and if he's got to pay the penalty, so be it. And he deserves it. He admits that, I think we all admit that. But I'm not the kind of person who would say to somebody in football, 'you're banned from football for the rest of your life'. That's most unfair. All people in the UK will agree with that. You wouldn't ban a manager from football for ever, that's most unfair."
DO: Are you now saying the FA have given you no assurances about the investigation, contrary to what you said previously?
DW: "They have not given Wigan Athletic any assurances whatsoever about the case. We as a club have looked at the case and we, as a club, believe that he did wrong. He admits he did wrong and he apologises. The FA will take whatever action that they feel is necessary. The action I hope and think that they will take is to fine him and he deserves to be fined. I cannot see them really putting a ban on him or anything of that nature, but if they do we will obviously abide by the rules and we've got it in the contract that we can take the necessary steps whatever the FA decides."
DO: How do you feel these events have impacted on your reputation and the reputation of Wigan Athletic?
DW: "Firstly, Wigan Athletic... whatever has been done has been done by me and I should take the full responsibility. Wigan Athletic, whether I am there or I am not there, we are still a very, very honest football club. We will fight to do what is right at all times and obey the rules at all times, we are a very, very honest sporting club and hopefully Malky Mackay can come through this and lead Wigan back to the Premier League and that will satisfy every single person in Wigan I hope. My personal reputation is built on my personality and what I say. If I have upset anyone in this conversation about the Jewish people, I'm so sorry because I did not mean to upset one Jewish person. I have got thousands of Jewish friends and get on so well with the Jewish people. Over the world I've got thousands and thousands of friends and I would never insult any of them."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 14:03:32 GMT 1
Whelan has with his comments re-directed media attention from the unsavoury racists texts of his manager, a man who needs to motivate, buy and select players from an array of racial backgrounds. instead media are concentrating upon the rather lesser contentious comments of an older fella who's views are perhaps less important. Leaving the manager and team to get on with their real business.
Could be seen as a clever move, like the way he bumps the story by threatening to quit
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 14:04:50 GMT 1
What I see in this thread is a lot of people wilfully ignoring the context of what Whelan said. The word 'Chink' might not be offensive to you, a middle-aged white man, but that is not the point, is it? The point is that it is deeply offensive to many people in this country who are of South-East Asian origin, and that includes my partner, who was mercilessly bullied at school with that epithet, and who still has it thrown her way in the most unlikely of situations. If anybody had bothered to read the press release issued by Kick It Out, they would have noticed that it included an Asian man recounting how, when he was assaulted, the perpetrators shouted 'Chink' and 'Chinky'. It isn't acceptable to use words like Paki or Nigger, and rightly so, because they're words which have deep historical roots and which serve to dehumanise people on mass scale. Chink is no different, and Whelan should have known that by now because he is a grown man who operates a business in the public sphere. Excellent post .. I wish I was as eloquent Except it has no relevence to the context in which Whelan used the word.
|
|
|
Post by Giggity on Nov 23, 2014 14:05:13 GMT 1
This country is fucked. Left wingers have killed it.
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 14:05:50 GMT 1
Words themselves arent racist (its just words) but its the manner and context in which they are being used. Whelan clearly wasnt trying to be offensive, misguided aye but why should there be a witchhunt over that. Its gonna get to the point where journalists are gonna have to submit their questions first so the person answering them can have a day or two to correctly word the answer right in case they offend some soppy c*** They'll be getting lawyers to do the press conferences next.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 14:13:01 GMT 1
Once again, the point is not whether Whelan thinks the word is offensive, it's whether the large group of people at which it is directed think it's offensive. Also, in terms of context, Whelan was defending comments which clearly were intended to offend and which were offensive. What if he had said Nigger or Paki? Would we then be talking about context? Half the time the reason these things drag on is because people refuse to accept that hundreds of years of inequality and racism don't dissapear over night, especially if you're one of he unfortunates who has been on he receiving end.
|
|
|
Post by Chips Longhorn on Nov 23, 2014 14:13:27 GMT 1
Excellent post .. I wish I was as eloquent Except it has no relevence to the context in which Whelan used the word. 3 pipe it was the telephone call with David Conn which created the shitstorm of Whelans making
|
|
|
Post by 3Pipe on Nov 23, 2014 14:27:51 GMT 1
Except it has no relevence to the context in which Whelan used the word. 3 pipe it was the telephone call with David Conn which created the shitstorm of Whelans making I know, I posted the transcript of his subsequent BBC interview above where he explains his comments. Seems like everyone is after their pound of flesh (Shylock reference intended).
|
|
|
Post by artysid on Nov 23, 2014 14:39:32 GMT 1
A black Jewish boy runs home from school one day and asks his father, "Daddy, am I more Jewish or more black?" The dad replies, "Why do you want to know, son?" "Because a kid at school is selling a bike for £50 and I want to know if I should talk him down to £40 or just steal it!"
Apologies I don't know how that got on here
A young Scouser with a Yorkshire father runs home from school one day and asks his father, "Daddy, am I more Yorkie or more Scouse?" The dad replies, "Why do you want to know, son?" "Because a kid at school is selling a bike for £50 and I want to know if I should talk him down to £40 or just steal it!"
|
|
|
Post by galpharm2400 on Nov 23, 2014 14:43:49 GMT 1
Whelan is a very welcome diversion, that's all. The columnists love all this so they can 'safely' have a go at white middle aged/elderly men who wont fight back. I said before, wait till the first footballer comes out, lets see how the politicians and the 'right on' columnists deal with the backlash from the 'deeply devout players' to this revelation. You know what, they wont, they will avoid it.
The idea that people as a rule don't discriminate every day in normal life is ridiculous. Human beings discriminate in the blink of an eye every single day due to sex, height, weight, looks, colour of hair etc etc etc etc....
Anyone who claims to be 'discrimination free' is a liar or a fool.
|
|
|
Post by artysid on Nov 23, 2014 14:52:48 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 23, 2014 14:53:50 GMT 1
Anyone on here ever been deeply offended by being described as fat, ugly, goofy, a L**ds fan? Yeh, the last one is a sickener i know. Storm in a very, very small tea-cup.
|
|