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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 17:44:50 GMT 1
you may well have to wait until the Hillsborough lobby don't have the weight behind them that they have now.. too many tragedies in football grounds where people were standing.. put forward whatever new thinking you have it will not outweigh the past, at the moment.. The fact we haven't had another big problem inside a football ground since seats came in will be a big argument to keep the status quo, the ins and outs and changes in general behaviour at football would pale when the previous disasters are re-run during any meaningful discussions on the subject.. Do Liverpool fans stand in the KOP?
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 16, 2015 18:23:09 GMT 1
yes they do..fans still stand all over the country.. the clubs safety people hate it as does the Hillsborough lobby..
if your point is taking the seats out will not make any difference you are on a loser.. with seats in, even if large sections don't sit for very long if at all, has not caused any major problems..the seats and the personal space they create will be used as the back up argument..
btw, id like to stand, I can be trusted to stand. im not sure some of the fuckwits I still see at football matches should be trusted to leave their own houses unaccompanied never mind be where they could cause problems for proper people..
I think, at least for the time being its a non starter..
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 18:36:15 GMT 1
yes they do..fans still stand all over the country.. the clubs safety people hate it as does the Hillsborough lobby.. if your point is taking the seats out will not make any difference you are on a loser.. with seats in, even if large sections don't sit for very long if at all, has not caused any major problems..the seats and the personal space they create will be used as the back up argument.. btw, id like to stand, I can be trusted to stand. im not sure some of the fuckwits I still see at football matches should be trusted to leave their own houses unaccompanied never mind be where they could cause problems for proper people.. I think, at least for the time being its a non starter.. You can 18 fans in the same area as 10 in a stand equipped with conventional seats. That would take the capacity of our South Stand to approximately 7000. Obviously that's not a pressing issue for us, but at other clubs where the demand for season card outweighs the number of seats available then it becomes important. Build a new stand at the cost of tens of millions or simply change the seats to rail seats? The number of clubs now behind the safe standing campaign is continually increasing, I'd like to see Town back the campaign. We have fans stood behind the goals at every match now, it's deemed acceptable obviously as it would be stopped otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 18:44:22 GMT 1
yes they do..fans still stand all over the country.. the clubs safety people hate it as does the Hillsborough lobby.. if your point is taking the seats out will not make any difference you are on a loser.. with seats in, even if large sections don't sit for very long if at all, has not caused any major problems..the seats and the personal space they create will be used as the back up argument.. btw, id like to stand, I can be trusted to stand. im not sure some of the fuckwits I still see at football matches should be trusted to leave their own houses unaccompanied never mind be where they could cause problems for proper people..I think, at least for the time being its a non starter.. Really? Get a grip man.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 16, 2015 18:54:46 GMT 1
mel , your coming at it from the monetary side and the football fan can be trusted side. Im with you as I said, I can sit or stand or be on a pogo stick all game without causing anyone any problems..we had a dozen or so very drunk, silly bastards near us at Fulham who constantly fell over the seats and pushed forward onto those in front, the stewards had to constantly speak to them, it will be in the safety report, take out the seats ? Its minor in relation to all that has gone before but each one added up can be used by the safety lobby... The seats will be used as the overwhelming reason that we haven't had any big problems for sometime..that plus the past and the lobby mentioned, which is very powerful and I cant see it coming to pass for sometime.. You might find problems in getting the first club with good crowds to put their neck on the line? at town if you want to stand all game you go in with your lot..thats great if that's what you want and nothing daft happens.. everyone else can sit somewhere else and just stand for the 'good bits'.. the kop stand whilst the rest sit..no real incidents of note, no safety reasons to change it..Liverpool will not get rid of the seats...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 19:01:16 GMT 1
mel , your coming at it from the monetary side and the football fan can be trusted side. Im with you as I said, I can sit or stand or be on a pogo stick all game without causing anyone any problems..we had a dozen or so very drunk, silly bastards near us at Fulham who constantly fell over the seats and pushed forward onto those in front, the stewards had to constantly speak to them, it will be in the safety report, take out the seats ???? Its minor in relation to all that has gone before but each one added up can be used by the safety lobby... The seats will be used as the overwhelming reason that we haven't had any big problems for sometime..that plus the past and the lobby mentioned, which is very powerful and I cant see it coming to pass for sometime.. You might find problems in getting the first club with good crowds to put their neck on the line? at town if you want to stand all game you go in with your lot..thats great if that's what you want and nothing daft happens.. everyone else can sit somewhere else and just stand for the 'good bits'.. the kop stand whilst the rest sit..no real incidents of note, no safety reasons to change it..Liverpool will not get rid of the seats... If folk under the influence of alcohol were falling over their seats at Fulham, then I'd say rail seating would have helped. I'm coming at it from the monetary side, because that's what will swing it. Simple. If you're going to stand, rail seating is safer than seats, just because there haven't been any major incidents (apart from morons regularly ripping out, and kicking seats through) doesn't mean to say it cant be improved upon.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 16, 2015 19:02:58 GMT 1
terrierjd..
get a grip on what??
those fuckwits are still the reason the vast majority of football fans get the feeling we are not wanted..they cause an inordinate amount of problems to their actual numbers and can always be relied on to fuck up the rest of us behaving like proper people who enjoy going to football matches and really don't need policing or stewarding..
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Post by benmsmith4 on Feb 16, 2015 19:08:23 GMT 1
Hillsborough is an important factor. However I think an equally significant factor stopping the introduction of safe standing is money. It's not profitable to introduce safe standing, it costs to install rail seats and ticket prices would inevitably have to come down in standing areas. As usual, the governing bodies within football care more about money than fans and their experience.
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Post by Stiggy on Feb 16, 2015 19:10:02 GMT 1
Me and my 9 year old and sometimes my 5 year old go in the NSL and to away game games the only time it becomes a problem is at away game when it everyone stands the kids ovbviosly can't see the pitch unless they stand on a seat which isn't ideal or safe.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 16, 2015 19:19:09 GMT 1
I don't think john would like me saying I would like to stand at matches???
the police chiefs who failed on the day, also failed at numerous other grounds every Saturday during that period of our footballing history..the season before that end was packed with many more leeds fans than it should have had in it..
the policing since has, and hooligans do back this up, been a major influence in the grounds being less affected by the wrong elements.
On the Police view of standing I don't know, best ask a senior ground commander but he/she will probably tell you that instructions come down from on 'high' and if something is working, best not to change it..They don't have the 'power' that some on here would have us all believe..
European clubs haven't had our disasters with crowd control, other than Heysel and that sort of answers the question of looking at their grounds etc..
The Hillsborough lobby is strong because of the time taken to even try to get to the truth and the misinformation given by all the powers that be who failed long before that day and then fatefully on the day. They have also 'proved' that the crowd that day had liitle or even nothing to do with the incident, which is a pretty powerful, even amazing thing to have whitewashed from the day..
Their opinions will be towards the top if not top of any discussions re going back to designated standing areas..Every North West MP, possibly every MP north of Watford wouldn't dare not to support them, time might alter that but not yet.
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Post by terriersyndrome on Feb 16, 2015 19:29:25 GMT 1
According to Sky sports 96% of fans support safe standing.. I really don't see the problem? The modern rail system is far safer than either standing in a seated area or the old standing areas.. If you count the number of fans going through each turnstile then over filling the stand simply wouldn't happen.. It's not rocket science!
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 16, 2015 20:01:36 GMT 1
sky news states that 74% of the country want a vote on the EU.. Might not happen and the usual 600 and odd will block it at some point..'for our own good'.... the clubs with the 'power and influence' have never had it so good with the tv money, why rock the boat and get involved in an argument that would cost them money to re introduce the changes??? agreed they may get it back in bigger crowds but the less people able to go to the big matches produces more people paying to watch it on tv, adding to the next big deal for those same clubs, without them having to do anything? we who are on a tighter budget, don't really need a bigger capacity and wont want to pay out a shedload to change back and then be expected to charge less for standing than sitting???
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 20:25:20 GMT 1
Fans want safe standing. The key word is safe. At the very least, a debate should be had with the suits who run football and in parliament. The hillsborough lobby obviously object to safe standing, but if it's not something they support then Liverpool don't have to partake in it. EVERY single football match at EVERY single ground in this country have fans who stand. Safe sanding areas will give a safer terrace. There is no law saying fans cannot stand at a football match, the law is on the terracing. It's about time football grew up and grew a pair of balls and had an adult discussion on the subject. The welsh assembly has passed trials.... Time parliament did the same.
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Post by benmsmith4 on Feb 16, 2015 20:29:25 GMT 1
Perhaps we could have a safe standing day, banner and invite the roadshow?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 20:33:12 GMT 1
Perhaps we could have a safe standing day, banner and invite the roadshow? I think that would be worthwhile.
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Post by benmsmith4 on Feb 16, 2015 20:34:40 GMT 1
Perhaps we could have a safe standing day, banner and invite the roadshow? I think that would be worthwhile. Hopefully someone with club contacts can make it happen. It might even get some publicity for the club which DH would like.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 20:37:45 GMT 1
They would be safer in a safe standing terrace than a seated one with people stood in. Nobody since hillsborough has given a valid reason as to why we can no longer have standing terracing. I am pro standing myself, I'm just trying to gain balanced points of view for anyone that may have some issues. Something that comes up a fair amount when I ask people about the subject, is they'd be worried that their child wouldn't be able to see the game because of those in front. Similarly for the elderly who find it difficult to stand for longer periods. I am over 60, go in NS and stand because at my age with my injuries I find it difficult to sit down for extended periods. So the concept that elderly people need or want to sit is flawed. I would add, I would pay extra to stand, although I acknowledge crowd density should reduce prices for safe standing.
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Post by saintlyterrier on Feb 16, 2015 20:47:43 GMT 1
"Am I one of the 4% who doesn't want "safe" standing?
I've been thoroughly p***ed off by people standing around me, as was the case at Fulham. I get equally annoyed by groups of loons at St Mary's who stand and the stewards do sod all.
A well designed all-seated ground can both allow good views and create a good atmosphere.
I have bad knees that don't respond happily to standing up for 90 minutes, or bobbing up and down, but I'm against the concept of standing in principle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 20:51:43 GMT 1
"Am I one of the 4% who doesn't want "safe" standing? I've been thoroughly p***ed off by people standing around me, as was the case at Fulham. I get equally annoyed by groups of loons at St Mary's who stand and the stewards do sod all. A well designed all-seated ground can both allow good views and create a good atmosphere. I have bad knees that don't respond happily to standing up for 90 minutes, or bobbing up and down, but I'm against the concept of standing in principle. But we're not proposing standing terraces in all areas of the ground here, you could cater for thise that want to stand and fans that prefer to sit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 20:52:49 GMT 1
Can I add, there is no way imo that sitting down is as conducive to creating an atmosphere as standing up.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 20:56:22 GMT 1
"Am I one of the 4% who doesn't want "safe" standing? I've been thoroughly p***ed off by people standing around me, as was the case at Fulham. I get equally annoyed by groups of loons at St Mary's who stand and the stewards do sod all. A well designed all-seated ground can both allow good views and create a good atmosphere. I have bad knees that don't respond happily to standing up for 90 minutes, or bobbing up and down, but I'm against the concept of standing in principle. Please read my comments above. I would pay twice the price for safe standing! Which by the way would resolve your problem because you would be elsewhere in a safe seating area. Don't make me laugh, good atmosphere in seating areas, you're on a wind up with that comment, or do not have enough experience on atmospheres and what facilitates them to have a valid opinion.
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Post by terracesider on Feb 16, 2015 21:05:14 GMT 1
I am pro standing myself, I'm just trying to gain balanced points of view for anyone that may have some issues. Something that comes up a fair amount when I ask people about the subject, is they'd be worried that their child wouldn't be able to see the game because of those in front. Similarly for the elderly who find it difficult to stand for longer periods. I am over 60, go in NS and stand because at my age with my injuries I find it difficult to sit down for extended periods. So the concept that elderly people need or want to sit is flawed. I would add, I would pay extra to stand, although I acknowledge crowd density should reduce prices for safe standing. Also in the over-sixties brigade - actually the next big round number is looming fairly large - and would be delighted to STAND at matches.. There's something of the freedom of being able to move about that enhances the enjoyment of the game. When our team score what do the fans do; get on their feet and make a noise --- good indicator? I will add that (although we have had some very enjoyable games down here this season) the most continuous fun I had at a match was on boxing day when we were lucky enough to get "seats" on the back row and were able to stand all the game --- great!!! Good luck with your project. UTT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 21:06:02 GMT 1
I did hear in the past, That Town were approached by the roadshow, But declined, Poor, imo, if true. Maybe they think that KSDL should be getting the invite?
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Post by terracesider on Feb 16, 2015 21:07:18 GMT 1
And I should add: I also would pay considerably more to stand through the game.
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Post by Phil Starbuck - Legend! on Feb 16, 2015 21:18:57 GMT 1
I don't post a lot but this thread has my juices flowing... The post I'm quoting is contradictory and by default SUPPORTS safe standing. Those that want to stand would go in the safe standing areas, those that want to sit would buy a seated ticket! Thus reducing the chance of the poster being p***ed off by people standing around them! "Am I one of the 4% who doesn't want "safe" standing? I've been thoroughly p***ed off by people standing around me, as was the case at Fulham. I get equally annoyed by groups of loons at St Mary's who stand and the stewards do sod all. A well designed all-seated ground can both allow good views and create a good atmosphere. I have bad knees that don't respond happily to standing up for 90 minutes, or bobbing up and down, but I'm against the concept of standing in principle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 21:30:10 GMT 1
"Am I one of the 4% who doesn't want "safe" standing? I've been thoroughly p***ed off by people standing around me, as was the case at Fulham. I get equally annoyed by groups of loons at St Mary's who stand and the stewards do sod all. A well designed all-seated ground can both allow good views and create a good atmosphere. I have bad knees that don't respond happily to standing up for 90 minutes, or bobbing up and down, but I'm against the concept of standing in principle. Whilst I sympathise with your situation, nobody said safe standing was going to be for the whole stadium. It will be small sections (10%?) Safe standing at home games would certainly prevent you having your view blocked. Away ends could have safe standing areas at the back of stands.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 21:35:59 GMT 1
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 16, 2015 21:45:50 GMT 1
in essence we have safe standing areas now.. the NSL stand and in slightly larger amounts the kop do and the Elland road faithfull behind the goals.. there just happens to be seats in there..
do the seats get in the way of an 'atmosphere'?? as the majority of the crowds at all 3 grounds are sitting???
Palace have a corner where everyone stands but the rest are sitting??? they make enough noise...
If you want to stand at Town you know where to go, buying a seat in with the NSL or in the kop then complaining you cant see is a legal complaint but not a very common sense choice to start with.. going back to the past and going in the cowshed and complaining about the pushing and shoving or the language wasn't a smart move either, again neither should have taken place but it did and you knew beforehand it did..
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Post by Der Blitzbomber on Feb 16, 2015 21:46:23 GMT 1
The enormous terrace at Borussia Dortmund's ground shows how much a return to terracing could revitalise the atmosphere at games. Of course it also helps that Bundesliga match tickets cost less than cinema tickets.
Terracing wasn't a significant factor in the Hillsborough disaster, other than the fact that there's an obvious limit to how many people can fit in a seated stand. The Hillsborough justice campaign is in my opinion doing those 96 victims a disservice by focusing on standing being a significant factor. The main cause of the tragedy was criminal negligence of South Yorkshire Police. Focusing on kicking safe standing into the long grass just takes the pressure off those that are responsible and have yet to face justice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 22:00:38 GMT 1
in essence we have safe standing areas now.. the NSL stand and in slightly larger amounts the kop do and the Elland road faithfull behind the goals.. there just happens to be seats in there.. do the seats get in the way of an 'atmosphere'?? as the majority of the crowds at all 3 grounds are sitting??? Palace have a corner where everyone stands but the rest are sitting??? they make enough noise... If you want to stand at Town you know where to go, buying a seat in with the NSL or in the kop then complaining you cant see is a legal complaint but not a very common sense choice to start with.. going back to the past and going in the cowshed and complaining about the pushing and shoving or the language wasn't a smart move either, again neither should have taken place but it did and you knew beforehand it did.. Your missing the point. This is a campaign for safe standing. Not standing.
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