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Post by iangreaves on Mar 23, 2015 8:09:40 GMT 1
It's the same old story - Labour get in power and spend all the money and get the finances into a total mess. The poor Tory's are then brought in to sort out the mess and catch all the stick for doing so. This has always been the case and it looks like it always will be. Lets be honest, would anyone in their right mind ever trust the likes of gormless Milliband and frog eyed Balls with the economy? If these two comedians ever get into power, then we will be well and truly fucked. It's the same old story. The Tories get in power, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the poor Labour party have to sort out the mess again.
This has always been the case and it looks like it always will be.
Lets be honest, would anyone in their right mind ever trust the likes of I'm distantly related to the Queen Cameron and the smarmy Bullingdon boy Osbourne with the economy?
If these two comedians get back into power, then we will be well and truly fucked.
See what I did there... Or rather than using Media rhetoric, cleverly spun by press outlets. Why not go and investigate each party and their manifesto? There are many independent sources who also comment on party ideas - especially the economy. Open your mind. Worth noting too that Labour spent most of the money saving the Banks and a flat lining economy. The sub prime mortgage crash was not their fault although in hindsight they could've done a lot more to ensure we weren't as badly hit. If people honestly investigated each party no-one in their right minds would vote Conservative, Labour or Lib Dem again. They are all members of the same Bilberberg gang.
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Mar 23, 2015 8:10:14 GMT 1
Labour better at running the economy - I've read it all now. The only place Labour would have taken us is the same way Ireland, Portugal etc went
Socialist France did what Labour proposed and are really struggling meanwhile the UK economy is the fastest growing in the developed world - you have to be utterly blinkered to argue the coalition haven't done a better job than other national governments have during the economic crisis
Seriously you could print any graph you want and you'll never convince me Labour have the foggiest idea on the economy.
If Labour want to win the election they need to make the debate about the NHS because they've lost most voters confidence in the economy
They made errors when in Government and every economic prediction in opposition is in tatters; growth, unemployment etc
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Post by htafctaunton on Mar 23, 2015 8:52:16 GMT 1
I don't get it either Mel... Some people seem to vote Labour just because they were brought up to do so, without looking at factually why they are doing it. The old sociliast Labour ideals are long gone anyway, and they're not too dissimilar from The Tories on a few things these days. I'm a floating voter - I'll vote for who or what I think is the best for me and the countries needs at the time of en election. People aligning themselves with a political party irrespective of policy I find absolutely baffling... Labour could stick huge tax and energy hikes and a privitisation of the NHS on their manifesto, and yet half the people in the North would still vote for them regardless. Madness I say You could write exactly the same about Tory voters...but you didn't ? tbh, I don't think this is true any more..there's so much more info on the 'net for people to work out who says what ..I also disagree they are the same, Labour still tend to have workers conditions first, and social and welfare are a higher priority...whereas the Tories would sell everything off to private sector in return for the donations they make to Tory party funds.. Capitalism is destined to cause total disaster, leads to massive division between the have's and the have nots and by it's very nature is exploitative. At some stage it will all implode...and then the private yachts and jets will be heading off to the Bahamas while the rest of us stew in the mess that's left behind. opinions are divided, and some are stronger than others (amongst Town fans), so that's why I'm surpised the Town Ambassador has been linked to jason Mccartney's election campaign...surely not a clever idea for a football club in a working class town which is already losing dissaffected fans..? I think we had a little insight into how 'free enterprise' (capitalism) works, a few years ago, with the stadium shares issue and a certain Mr Davy!
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Post by artysid on Mar 23, 2015 10:24:17 GMT 1
My recollection is that in 1997 Labour promised financial prudence and indeed performed far better than the Tory’s had. The next election they promised to increase expenditure on services, I assume the Tory’s promised to spend less. They won the election by a landslide and so started to do what they had promised, but still kept net borrowing at a level comparable with the previous Tory administration until the world recession hit- Indeed much better than between 92-97(Don't forget the Tory's had also taken the deficit up before they started to take it down). So your criticism is what? Labour promised to increase services then continued to keep the promise (following which they got re-elected again), rather than doing what you (who I assume voted against them) wanted. Surely that’s what politics is all about? Look at the graph you posted of the deficit. As I said, Brown stuck to the previous Government's spending plans for the first couple of years before he got the chequebook out. The graph clearly shows when Labour were running the country because the line goes up. Let’s be honest we’re never going to agree that our current economic problems are primarily due to a Worldwide recession caused by the International Banking Industry not Gordon Brown. How the hell I ever got into a position of appearing to defend Brown and Blair I’ll never know suicide There are so many other areas one could chose to criticise them, not least Foreign Policy & tackling the workshy. But perhaps tackling inequality could be considered their biggest failing. Despite inequality being what I would consider a cornerstone of Labour philosophy and despite them governing over a period of relative economic prosperity (yes I know we’re not going to agree on that one) they not only failed to reduce the inequality gap they actually managed to increase it. However, I’m feeling a bit mischievous today so in my next post I’ll post some comments on Europe and Immigration to see if there are any grounds for consensus
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Post by artysid on Mar 23, 2015 10:28:55 GMT 1
Europe The Tory’s took us into Europe after they had negotiated the terms of our entry including the transfer of powers from Parliament, and Immigration.
Thereafter it was Mrs Thatcher (despite her anti Europe image) who transferred more powers to Europe(e.g. through the Single European Act of 1986 and the Maastricht Treaty) than any Prime Minister before or since.
Can we agree on this?
Immigration Historically Immigration has always been a feature of this country’s economic life. Current immigration can be divided into two categories - controllable immigration (e.g. from non EEC countries), and uncontrollable (i.e. from the EEC) immigration.
Non EEC Immigration The active encouragement of post war large scale Immigration of predominantly low skilled black people and Asians began in the late 50’s early 60’s under the then Tory administration. The single major influx (of highly skilled, well educated, entrepreneurial Ugandan Asians) took place in the early 70’s again when a Tory administration was in power.
Controllable immigration has actually increased under this current Tory administration. It is speculative to say whether the situation would have differed significantly under Labour, I doubt it, but what is fact is that anyone who voted for this government believing they would reduce immigration has been let down.
EEC immigration A direct result of the Tory’s negotiating the terms of, and taking us into the EEC.
Essentially migration within the EEC cannot be controlled unless we leave it. When politicians make promises about controlling it (other than those who would take us out of the EEC) they are lying.
Labour could have delayed but not prevented immigration from the new East European Member States but again immigration from within the EEC has continued to rise under this administration.
Underlining the immigration debate is the ironic possibility that given a falling birth rate and longer life expectancy, future governments whether we stay in the EEC or not, may be faced with the prospect of having to attract large numbers of economically active immigrants to sustain the economic growth needed to support an ageing population.
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 23, 2015 10:29:44 GMT 1
It's the same old story - Labour get in power and spend all the money and get the finances into a total mess. The poor Tory's are then brought in to sort out the mess and catch all the stick for doing so. This has always been the case and it looks like it always will be. Lets be honest, would anyone in their right mind ever trust the likes of gormless Milliband and frog eyed Balls with the economy? If these two comedians ever get into power, then we will be well and truly fucked. It's the same old story. The Tories get in power, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the poor Labour party have to sort out the mess again.
This has always been the case and it looks like it always will be.
Lets be honest, would anyone in their right mind ever trust the likes of I'm distantly related to the Queen Cameron and the smarmy Bullingdon boy Osbourne with the economy?
If these two comedians get back into power, then we will be well and truly fucked.
See what I did there... Or rather than using Media rhetoric, cleverly spun by press outlets. Why not go and investigate each party and their manifesto? There are many independent sources who also comment on party ideas - especially the economy. Open your mind. Worth noting too that Labour spent most of the money saving the Banks and a flat lining economy. The sub prime mortgage crash was not their fault although in hindsight they could've done a lot more to ensure we weren't as badly hit. So youre sayng if labour get in they'll have to sort out the mess again? the mess of one of the strongest recovering economies in the world? Of more people in employment in the UK than ever before? Yeah right. More people are working and more people have been taken out of tax thresholds than ever, so this idea the Tories make the poorer get poorer really is a crock. The coalition have done a tremendous job of getting the country back on its feet after inheriting a shambles from Labour. Its not been pretty and tough decisions have had to be made, with labour arguing all the time that it wouldn't work. But unsurprisingly they were wrong and it has. Seems wholly unfair that having dome the repair job successfully, we would once again go back to the inept bunch that largely caused it. I wouldn't trust labour or their union paymasters to run a bath.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 11:23:38 GMT 1
Surprised no-one has brought up the topic of quantitative easing... Ticking time bomb, or something George decided to expand once he realised where the money was really going? Or both probably...
As said by many others, the effect of the global economic crisis is as ever, totally under-played by the Tories. Unless you really understand (& I admit I don't in this case) the scale of Lehman Brothers and the fact they collapsed overnight was probably akin to the PL & Sky going bust overnight multiple times - they'd stop playing and switch the lights off...
That's why it will be difficult for any party to turn this around in a single parliamentary term but I know I'd rather vote for a party that will do more for the majority than the minority...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 11:32:47 GMT 1
Listening to Millbland and Balls is like a sketch from The Life of Brian.....
"So what have the Tories ever done for us?"... "Right, so apart from creating record employment, halving the deficit, raising tax allowances for the lowest paid, creating one of the strongest growing economies in the world, lowering unemployment, 250,000 new small businesses started, 6,000 more doctors in the NHS and 6,000 fewer managers... etc... what have the Tories ever done for us?"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 11:46:08 GMT 1
You keep believing the hype Marcus old lad...
You need to scratch below the surface of the Telegraph occasionally...
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Mar 23, 2015 13:07:59 GMT 1
The halving of the deficit which they advertise is actually only by a third when it was investigated. And again George originally promised to eradicate it by now, a promise that now slides to 2018 until it actually isn't and slides yet again.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 13:08:15 GMT 1
You keep believing the hype Marcus old lad... You need to scratch below the surface of the Telegraph occasionally... Care to highlight how each of those points is hype and not fact then? This is exactly the Millband/Balls approach I was talking of. They deny all of it but have nothing to back it up with or a viable alternative. Constantly trying to convince the public that things are in a terrible state, whilst relying on the Labour voters being too stupid to understand the difference between a deficit and a debt is wearing a bit thin. "Ere, Ed reckons the national debt is rising under the Tories, but that posh tw4t reckons they've halved the deficit, lying Tory b4stard!" Record employment - fact Lowering unemployment - fact Growing economy - fact Raising income tax threshold - fact One of the strongest growing global economies - fact Almost halved the deficit -fact. Carry on..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 13:16:03 GMT 1
The halving of the deficit which they advertise is actually only by a third when it was investigated. And again George originally promised to eradicate it by now, a promise that now slides to 2018 until it actually isn't and slides yet again. Yeah, just read about that. A bit cheeky changing how it was measured to improve the figures. Even lowing it by a third in the current economic climate is not bad going by my thinking though. I seriously don't think Labour would have tackled it and suspect under Millibands lot, we'd have spent our way the same way as Portugal, Ireland etc by now.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Mar 23, 2015 13:38:23 GMT 1
You keep believing the hype Marcus old lad... You need to scratch below the surface of the Telegraph occasionally... Care to highlight how each of those points is hype and not fact then? This is exactly the Millband/Balls approach I was talking of. They deny all of it but have nothing to back it up with or a viable alternative. Constantly trying to convince the public that things are in a terrible state, whilst relying on the Labour voters being too stupid to understand the difference between a deficit and a debt is wearing a bit thin. "Ere, Ed reckons the national debt is rising under the Tories, but that posh tw4t reckons they've halved the deficit, lying Tory b4stard!" Record employment - fact Lowering unemployment - fact Growing economy - fact Lowering income tax threshold - fact One of the strongest growing global economies - fact Almost halved the deficit -fact. Carry on.. Record employment/Lowering unemployment. This is mainly due to the unprecedented rise in part-time and zero hour contracts that the UK workforce have to deal with. Almost a year ago the ONS (Office of National Statistics) said there is 1.4m zero contracts in place and 8.2m people were on part-time contracts. Growing economy/one of the strongest Mainly due to the service industry which is commendable, but very sad for a country that used to lead to world in engineering and manufacturing. Real pay is still falling which will mean spending won't rise and therefore the fall of the deficit and the economy growth may stall. You might want to compare the rise in the cost of the utilities compared to wages during this parliament. Lowering income tax threshold Are you sure that's right and if it is would you want to claim it as a success?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 13:45:37 GMT 1
Care to highlight how each of those points is hype and not fact then? This is exactly the Millband/Balls approach I was talking of. They deny all of it but have nothing to back it up with or a viable alternative. Constantly trying to convince the public that things are in a terrible state, whilst relying on the Labour voters being too stupid to understand the difference between a deficit and a debt is wearing a bit thin. "Ere, Ed reckons the national debt is rising under the Tories, but that posh tw4t reckons they've halved the deficit, lying Tory b4stard!" Record employment - fact Lowering unemployment - fact Growing economy - fact Lowering income tax threshold - fact One of the strongest growing global economies - fact Almost halved the deficit -fact. Carry on.. Record employment/Lowering unemployment. This is mainly due to the unprecedented rise in part-time and zero hour contracts that the UK workforce have to deal with. Almost a year ago the ONS (Office of National Statistics) said there is 1.4m zero contracts in place and 8.2m people were on part-time contracts. Growing economy/one of the strongest Mainly due to the service industry which is commendable, but very sad for a country that used to lead to world in engineering and manufacturing. Real pay is still falling which will mean spending won't rise and therefore the fall of the deficit and the economy growth may stall. You might want to compare the rise in the cost of the utilities compared to wages during this parliament. Lowering income tax threshold Are you sure that's right and if it is would you want to claim it as a success? Oops! corrected. UK manufacturing is not doing as badly as some like to make out... www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/
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Post by artysid on Mar 23, 2015 13:51:44 GMT 1
Marcus
I’m not denying there are improvements in the unemployment /employment situation since the peak of the recession and that’s good. However this is one area where figures / types of calculation (%, numbers, actively seeking work etc) can be manipulated to suit most arguments e.g. Are you saying the actual number of people unemployed is now lower than it was between 99 and 08?
Yes the economy is growing at a healthy rate and that is to be welcomed but what do you mean when you say “strongest” growing economy, What does “strongest” mean? Are you saying it is one of the top 20 fastest growing economies or that it’s even growing faster than say Ireland or Poland?
The thing is though, for all that some key indicators are encouraging, one can never say for certain whether things would have been better or worse under another administration, this is where political bias tends to come in.
My main concern however is - Are you sure you understand the difference between debt and deficit? If you could just answer the two questions below-( yes or no will suffice)it would help me to know-
1 Has the National Debt risen under this administration?
2.Although as you say the deficit (i.e. net borrowing as a % of GNP) has halved since 2009 /10 would you agree it is still over double what it was in the years between 2000 and 2008?
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Post by galpharm2400 on Mar 23, 2015 14:08:38 GMT 1
both got the same stats..both lie incessantly about their own version or the others version..
bottom line;;
a. give money to people who avoid some of the tax on it but who do provide jobs and some impetus in the country.(no matter how bent or corrupt they might be)..
b. give money to wasters, fools and anyone who might vote to keep you in power to keep giving them money..
c. vote for the party that suits you and your current position best.
the rest is stats about sums of money that don't exist in reality and checks and balances so far from being anything like real or correct its not worth bothering about..
don't get caught up in the emotional debates about people dying through lack of ambulances and lack of attention in hospitals, or the upsurge in reporting child sex scandals and police failings etc.. they are no different now to what they have always been and probably will remain so, its just more coverage in the media, changes to how the incidents are reported and the 'vogue' at the moment to support 'victims or survivors' etc etc,.
There is only so much money and as we get more and more people on this small island all wanting their 'entitlement' wether they pay nothing at all for it or not, we will just change how the above is reported and it wont look just as bad..
smoke and mirrors.. stats and lies about stats..stats and various versions of the same stats.. politics of greed and the politics of envy..
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Post by artysid on Mar 23, 2015 14:11:36 GMT 1
Governments of all persuasions tend to disregard the actual amount of Nation debt, tending to focus on debt as a % of GDP - as we all do with our own finances. Compared to other Countries ours is not particularly problematic. As the graph below show the Tory’s did start to bring the % down (not the amount) in the late 80’s but then let is rise again. The Labour Party did start to bring it down again until the recession hit in late 2007
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Mar 23, 2015 14:59:00 GMT 1
Was it the Tories who let the property market overheat on purpose?
That was the core of the depression and Labour allowed 100% mortgages, low interest rate loans etc on their watch.
Instead they allowed a credit based bubble to grow until it popped
Sadly the people worse hit by the mess were there own supporters on low incomes who became priced out of the housing market and struggling with credit card debt. They then got a double hit in the inevitable austerity required to correct the debit fuelled (none) growth
Sorry but Labour and economy are about as comfy bedmate as the Tories and Scotland!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 15:10:08 GMT 1
both got the same stats..both lie incessantly about their own version or the others version.. bottom line;; a. give money to people who avoid some of the tax on it but who do provide jobs and some impetus in the country.(no matter how bent or corrupt they might be).. b. give money to wasters, fools and anyone who might vote to keep you in power to keep giving them money.. c. vote for the party that suits you and your current position best. the rest is stats about sums of money that don't exist in reality and checks and balances so far from being anything like real or correct its not worth bothering about.. don't get caught up in the emotional debates about people dying through lack of ambulances and lack of attention in hospitals, or the upsurge in reporting child sex scandals and police failings etc.. they are no different now to what they have always been and probably will remain so, its just more coverage in the media, changes to how the incidents are reported and the 'vogue' at the moment to support 'victims or survivors' etc etc,. There is only so much money and as we get more and more people on this small island all wanting their 'entitlement' wether they pay nothing at all for it or not, we will just change how the above is reported and it wont look just as bad.. smoke and mirrors.. stats and lies about stats..stats and various versions of the same stats.. politics of greed and the politics of envy.. So 'survivors and victims' have to be 'in vogue' to get some justice then? Just because something is 'the norm' doesn't mean it doesn't need challenging, investigating, changing etc... I agree that the media & politicians on both sides will always play these stories but at the end of the day there are real people involved & although I'll no doubt get pulled up on the occasion and the subject, this is a clip that I'd urge all political persuasions to watch with a view to thinking how your own family, friends and social circle would be affected if we were to lose the NHS...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 15:10:33 GMT 1
Marcus I’m not denying there are improvements in the unemployment /employment situation since the peak of the recession and that’s good. However this is one area where figures / types of calculation (%, numbers, actively seeking work etc) can be manipulated to suit most arguments e.g. Are you saying the actual number of people unemployed is now lower than it was between 99 and 08? No, from the peak in 2011 during the middle of the recession, it's now going down to almost pre-recession levels. Considering the rest of Europe, that's not bad going. Yes the economy is growing at a healthy rate and that is to be welcomed but what do you mean when you say “strongest” growing economy, What does “strongest” mean? Are you saying it is one of the top 20 fastest growing economies or that it’s even growing faster than say Ireland or Poland? The UK economy was the fastest growing major economy of last year. The thing is though, for all that some key indicators are encouraging, one can never say for certain whether things would have been better or worse under another administration, this is where political bias tends to come in. So you believe in spending your way out of uncontrollable debt? I suspect we'd have been another Ireland or Portugal by now, if Labour had remained in power. Labour inherited an economy in balance in the late 90's and even during the good times, managed to create a huge deficit out of it. Don't even mention "Brown's Bottom" as it was know. My main concern however is - Are you sure you understand the difference between debt and deficit? If you could just answer the two questions below-( yes or no will suffice)it would help me to know- 1 Has the National Debt risen under this administration? 2.Although as you say the deficit (i.e. net borrowing as a % of GNP) has halved since 2009 /10 would you agree it is still over double what it was in the years between 2000 and 2008? Yes I do understand the difference thank you. Unfortunately a large proportion of the electorate don't though, hence why Labour keep banging on about national debt rising under the Tories, without mentioning that the huge deficit needs addressing before any of the debt will be paid off. Let's face it, Labour are not going to win the election if they base their campaign on the economy or immigration are they? That's why all they have is the NHS.
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Post by artysid on Mar 23, 2015 15:19:39 GMT 1
Marcus
Please define "major" economy I find it very difficult to deal with caveats.
If you understand the difference between debt and deficit why have you avoided answering the two simple questions I asked?
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Post by galpharm2400 on Mar 23, 2015 15:43:47 GMT 1
blimey o crisis..
its not what I said.. its whats happening..its the real life.. nothing to do with justice for anyone in particular..they are getting justice now because the climate has changed dramatically from government downwards, nothing to say that wont change back when the furore dies down...also a great many of the people 'involved' can no longer defend themselves, that certainly helps..
we spent more on the national health, it was wasted but just in larger amounts.. spend more on policing but its wasted when you don't follow through on criminal justice.. there is a cost to every policing action believe it or not, its not free!!!!
pay more in benefits just encourages more waste and more claimants..
no one has a joined up policy on anything, one wants to cut, one wants to spend more but neither have a clue or the real objective of making tough decisions to increase the services available with less waste...
neither will increase the services available because the amount of 'entitlement' has gone through the roof, its who cuts the costs best and can continue to offer at least the basic services to our millions of 'entitled' people..
its not whats spent, its what is wasted..start with cutting the waste its the only logical place to start because the institutions are so big and sprawling you will get nowhere doing anything else..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 15:47:20 GMT 1
Vote UKIP.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 16:23:59 GMT 1
Labour, Tory, UKIP, it simply does not matter, your vote counts for nothing, the Zionists are well in control of every major Western power and have been for over 50 years.
We are all fucked either way, unless you have a shit Ton of money, and if you do, use it to buy Gold.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 16:28:20 GMT 1
Marcus Please define "major" economy I find it very difficult to deal with caveats. If you understand the difference between debt and deficit why have you avoided answering the two simple questions I asked? I'm not sure why I should have to explain myself to you to be honest. Point 1 - Have you ever heard of Google? here you go, have a read.... lmgtfy.com/?q=UK+the+fastest+growing+of+major+economiesMembers of the G20 are generally seen as being the major global economies. OK? Point 2 - If you'd have being paying attention to what other people have been saying, rather than just responding with patronising retorts, you'd have noticed the several occasions where I've mentioned what a deficit is. Just to stop you being patronising, as I've already mentioned it's the difference where state spending exceeds state income, causing a deficit. Rather than trying to attack and belittle opposing views, try debating.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Mar 23, 2015 16:32:44 GMT 1
or unless you are a Zionist, apparently..
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Mar 23, 2015 19:12:34 GMT 1
Iron, Lion, Zion...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 19:33:05 GMT 1
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Post by galpharm2400 on Mar 23, 2015 19:44:15 GMT 1
we had done quite well at not seeing A Jewish led plot.. we had even not strayed down the Muslim led plan to undermine the whole country...
there were even graphs and political and mathematical arguments re things that politicians, if they were forced to be honest, have little or no idea about..
would be easier if it was totally out of anyones control and was just damage limitation and making the best of a bad do.. maybe when it hits the fan they could just say 'its one of those days'??
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Post by Made In Yorkshire on Mar 23, 2015 19:49:15 GMT 1
Labour, Tory, UKIP, it simply does not matter, your vote counts for nothing, the Zionists are well in control of every major Western power and have been for over 50 years. We are all fucked either way, unless you have a shit Ton of money, and if you do, use it to buy Gold. Only the brave (or foolish) would buy gold at this moment in time.
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