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Post by otium (EPBS) on Apr 17, 2015 8:59:12 GMT 1
I am getting irritated reading about the "Rooney rule" and positive discrimination, what's positive about that? Its an oxymoron. British or British black are 3.01% of the UK pop yet it seems that 6% of managers are black to tier 7 of football and 5% in the football league. Thats double the average!! Let it find its own way like market forces. Intervening, pandering and PC are nonsense. No-one complains that 25% of top players are black (65% in the NFL in the USA) despite them only being 3% of the pop. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdomwww.bbc.com/sport/0/football/31970841As for Ramsay keeping on complaining. Wish i could get £25k a week for something i love.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 17, 2015 9:03:54 GMT 1
Another thread about black managers ?
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Post by teddytheterrier on Apr 17, 2015 9:13:33 GMT 1
People like Barnes and Campbell are no good as a manager, got fuck all to do with what colour they are!
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Post by Marco4 on Apr 17, 2015 9:14:04 GMT 1
I am getting irritated reading about the "Rooney rule" and positive discrimination, what's positive about that? Its an oxymoron. British or British black are 3.01% of the UK pop yet it seems that 6% of managers are black to tier 7 of football and 5% in the football league. Thats double the average!! Let it find its own way like market forces. Intervening, pandering and PC are nonsense. No-one complains that 25% of top players are black (65% in the NFL in the USA) despite them only being 3% of the pop. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdomwww.bbc.com/sport/0/football/31970841As for Ramsay keeping on complaining. Wish i could get £25k a week for something i love.Amicably leading QPR to relegation? I wouldn't say I love it, but I don't mind.
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rage_of_ed
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
[M0:5]Smile A While...
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Post by rage_of_ed on Apr 17, 2015 9:15:09 GMT 1
Black and ethic minorities actually form around 14% of the UK population, so stating the 3% figure is a little misleading (I'm guessing this refers to just those self-identifying specifically as black rather than mixed race, etc, but it is black and ethnic minorities that tends to be referred to re. representation in football).
I agree on the point about positive discrimination, although a drop from 25% representation as players to 6.5% as managers (and 3% of key coaching jobs in English football) is worthy of attention. In my opinion, it is this comparison of figures that makes far more sense than comparing to representation in the general population.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 17, 2015 9:20:16 GMT 1
People like Barnes and Campbell are no good as a manager, got fuck all to do with what colour they are! Not sure you can say Campbell is no good as a manager when he's never managed .. though I'm sure he wouldn't be ! Too self obsessed
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 17, 2015 9:22:12 GMT 1
How many of the 25% of black players are foreign? So likely to move out of the country as their playing career winds down?
This is a complete non-issue. The number of black managers will increase naturally over time as more and more retire, do their badges and get involved. Over a third of FL clubs have at some time had a black manager already. Another 10-15 years that will probably be 2 thirds. The Rooney rule is just 'acceptable' racial discrimination, something that shouldn't exist.
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Post by kennyk2 on Apr 17, 2015 9:25:53 GMT 1
Another thread about black managers ? ...simply because it seems with the BBC it's another day, so lets look at the black managers debate again. They really are kicking the arse out of it. I haven't posted on this subject before so here goes! Black and mixed-race professional footballers dominate our game. I'm sure someone can drag up the figures which show how many play football in all 4 divisions, but I bet that it is a substantial minority. An amazing turnaround in 40 years since Viv Anderson made his debut. They are highly paid compared to your hard-working man/women on the street who could never imagine earning their annual salary and good luck to them. The reason that so many have reached the very top of this professional sport is because they are very good at it. There are no barriers, or biases in them being employed by clubs who do not see race as a problem to employment. Why then is it so newsworthy that black managers aren't given a fair crack when it comes to managing? Could it be that few retired black players actually want to go into management, or could it be that managers, such as Ince and Barnes just aren't/weren't very good at it and decide that by bringing race into the discussion they are apologists for their own managerial inadequacies. There is no discrimination in employing back players, so why should there be discrimination in employing black managers?
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Post by teddytheterrier on Apr 17, 2015 9:42:16 GMT 1
Edgar David's another black manager who was useless!
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Apr 17, 2015 9:45:34 GMT 1
An observation is that since the BBC introduced the sports spot on the national news programmes - it seems to be dominated by ethnic minority presenters. They are probably using some internal positive discrimination/patronisation - on our behalf.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Apr 17, 2015 9:46:48 GMT 1
Edgar David's another black manager who was useless! I thought that was a play on words and spent a couple of minutes trying to work it out.
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Post by teddytheterrier on Apr 17, 2015 9:58:31 GMT 1
Edgar David's another black manager who was useless! I thought that was a play on words and spent a couple of minutes trying to work it out. Great player though, unlike our very own David Edgar!
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Post by In sooth- - on Apr 17, 2015 10:07:06 GMT 1
I was about to join in then realised that the question was not about bank managers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 10:11:00 GMT 1
How many of the 25% of black players are foreign? So likely to move out of the country as their playing career winds down? This is a complete non-issue. The number of black managers will increase naturally over time as more and more retire, do their badges and get involved. Over a third of FL clubs have at some time had a black manager already. Another 10-15 years that will probably be 2 thirds. The Rooney rule is just 'acceptable' racial discrimination, something that shouldn't exist. Not doubting you, but just to say I'm very surprised at that "over a third of clubs have had a black manager" comment. I barely remember seeing any in the away dug outs over the last 30 years or so. Maybe I don't notice as its a non issue and a black manager isn't even something that registers as being 'memorable'? Although I suppose when you consider Paul Ince has managed nearly 7% of all FL clubs it doesn't take that many more managers to knock it up to a third!!?
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Post by htfcfcfc on Apr 17, 2015 10:11:26 GMT 1
Would love to see the stats on the percentage of black/white who go on to take their coaching badges. This would give more insight into the subject
Really winds me up this subject, the volume of black players would suggest there are no problems here so if you're a qualified and a good enough manager why would there be barriers.
Edited - in addition would love to see the percentage applicants for jobs - certain potential candidates seem to think they shouldn't even need to apply for jobs and they should be handed to them on a plate
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Post by teddytheterrier on Apr 17, 2015 10:21:05 GMT 1
I bet sol hasn't done his coaching badges! Because I am Sol Campbell, if he has that attitude at job interviews even more reason not to give him the job! I'd just write c*** on my notes!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 10:25:43 GMT 1
Ah, the peculiar English obsession with race and colour raises it's head yet again.
I blame the BBC.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Apr 17, 2015 10:34:09 GMT 1
Ah, the peculiar English obsession with race and colour raises it's head yet again. I blame the BBC. It's hardly peculiar to England (and if you want to see real, embedded and dangerous racism, our cousins across the Atlantic is where to look)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 10:47:44 GMT 1
I should probably have said the English obsession with 'equality'. In which case I definitely blame the BBC.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 17, 2015 11:09:28 GMT 1
I should probably have said the English obsession with 'equality'. In which case I definitely blame the BBC. Yeah cos people can't think for themselves
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Post by gledholt terrier on Apr 17, 2015 11:36:12 GMT 1
I should probably have said the English obsession with 'equality'. In which case I definitely blame the BBC. Is there anything wrong with striving for equality? It underpins the US and French Constitutions (though the original of the former didn't make a great start when black people were counted as 3/5ths of a person!)
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Post by impact on Apr 17, 2015 11:48:17 GMT 1
How many black players were there 20 years ago? As that is the figure you need. Just because there are more black players now doesn't mean there should be more black managers - it takes time for the players to become managers.
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 17, 2015 12:06:57 GMT 1
An observation is that since the BBC introduced the sports spot on the national news programmes - it seems to be dominated by ethnic minority presenters. They are probably using some internal positive discrimination/patronisation - on our behalf. They seem to have a massively disproportionate amount of ethnic minority presenters on their news and childrens shows. Maybe there should be a Angela Rippon Rule to redress the balance?
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 17, 2015 12:17:33 GMT 1
How many of the 25% of black players are foreign? So likely to move out of the country as their playing career winds down? This is a complete non-issue. The number of black managers will increase naturally over time as more and more retire, do their badges and get involved. Over a third of FL clubs have at some time had a black manager already. Another 10-15 years that will probably be 2 thirds. The Rooney rule is just 'acceptable' racial discrimination, something that shouldn't exist. Not doubting you, but just to say I'm very surprised at that "over a third of clubs have had a black manager" comment. I barely remember seeing any in the away dug outs over the last 30 years or so. Maybe I don't notice as its a non issue and a black manager isn't even something that registers as being 'memorable'? Although I suppose when you consider Paul Ince has managed nearly 7% of all FL clubs it doesn't take that many more managers to knock it up to a third!!? I worked it out last time this topic came up. I got it up to 32/33 i think, though the figure could well be higher cos Im sure I forgot a few lower league bosses. It puts to bed the notion that football is intrinsically racist IMO- a theory promoted by people who earn their not unsubstantial wages in their 'fight against racism in football'. It also doesn't include all the hispanic , eastern european etc managers. Owners just want to succeed. I doubt theres an owner who wouldn't employ a 3 legged green alien as manager if he thought hed produce a winning team.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 12:34:31 GMT 1
Ah, the peculiar English obsession with race and colour raises it's head yet again. I blame the BBC. It's hardly peculiar to England (and if you want to see real, embedded and dangerous racism, our cousins across the Atlantic is where to look) I would love to know how you come to that conclusion. I have lived here for 16 years. Sure some people are discriminatory but it is not widespread. One thing often forgotten or ignored is it works both ways too over here. As long as people perpetuate racial discrimination on both sides of the racial divide it will continue but it's not widespread as the BBC would have you believe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 12:35:55 GMT 1
There was a piece on it in the Times a couple of years ago and it highlighted the number of black candidates for pro coaching licences etc was minimal compared to the number of black to white players pro-rata, therefore they came to the conclusion that basically they couldn't be arsed to put in the groundwork required to get yourself into the position of being a credible candidate for a managers job.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Apr 17, 2015 12:51:10 GMT 1
It's hardly peculiar to England (and if you want to see real, embedded and dangerous racism, our cousins across the Atlantic is where to look) I would love to know how you come to that conclusion. I have lived here for 16 years. Sure some people are discriminatory but it is not widespread. One thing often forgotten or ignored is it works both ways too over here. As long as people perpetuate racial discrimination on both sides of the racial divide it will continue but it's not widespread as the BBC would have you believe. How long you got? Actually scrub that and just look what you wrote - "both sides of the racial divide" Race is a massive issue in America from slavery, the lack of proper reconstruction after the Civil war (and Lincoln's death - he would have done much better), segregation, black migration North in to deliberate but more subtle segregation (red lining) creating ghettoes, the battle for (pretty basic) civil rights, an institutionally racist South, the imprisonment of black men hugely disproportionate to both their crimes and the population, Ferguson (DOJ report) etc, etc. It is deeply, deeply ingrained. America would love to have our race "problems"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 13:05:14 GMT 1
I would love to know how you come to that conclusion. I have lived here for 16 years. Sure some people are discriminatory but it is not widespread. One thing often forgotten or ignored is it works both ways too over here. As long as people perpetuate racial discrimination on both sides of the racial divide it will continue but it's not widespread as the BBC would have you believe. How long you got? Actually scrub that and just look what you wrote - "both sides of the racial divide" Race is a massive issue in America from slavery, the lack of proper reconstruction after the Civil war (and Lincoln's death - he would have done much better), segregation, black migration North in to deliberate but more subtle segregation (red lining) creating ghettoes, the battle for (pretty basic) civil rights, an institutionally racist South, the imprisonment of black men hugely disproportionate to both their crimes and the population, Ferguson (DOJ report) etc, etc. It is deeply, deeply ingrained. America would love to have our race "problems" Way too much kool aid in that post. I live in the South and live in a city with an above average black population and can tell you that you are way off the mark. However I don't want to turn this into an argument about the U.S. I can tell you that many of the incidents reported as racial by the TV news over here have nothing to do with race, Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown being two recent examples of myths perpetuated by the media. Anchors of a popular news organization saying "Hands up don't shoot" even though we now know that never happened. It's pretty sick. Back to the original question about black managers. We would need. More data points from reliable sources than I have seen to know if there really is a problem. Questions like what percentage of players take their coaching badges across different races are important. How many black applicants are there for jobs and are they as well qualified as white applicants for the same job.? Without seeing the whole picture it's hard to tell whether the problem is real, ,anyone can pick two data points and come to a conclusion that may be way off and news organizations do this all the time. Sad to see the irresponsible approach to "reporting" is not unique to the U.S. Media outlets. What I do know without doubt is positive discrimination is wrong and should be outlawed not encouraged. Proactively promoting someone based on race means someone else is overlooked because they did not fit the required racial profile. That to me is just as bad.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Apr 17, 2015 13:15:30 GMT 1
How long you got? Actually scrub that and just look what you wrote - "both sides of the racial divide" Race is a massive issue in America from slavery, the lack of proper reconstruction after the Civil war (and Lincoln's death - he would have done much better), segregation, black migration North in to deliberate but more subtle segregation (red lining) creating ghettoes, the battle for (pretty basic) civil rights, an institutionally racist South, the imprisonment of black men hugely disproportionate to both their crimes and the population, Ferguson (DOJ report) etc, etc. It is deeply, deeply ingrained. America would love to have our race "problems" Way too much kool aid in that post. I live in the South and live in a city with an above average black population and can tell you that you are way off the mark. However I don't want to turn this into an argument about the U.S. I can tell you that many of the incidents reported as racial by the TV news over here have nothing to do with race, Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown being two recent examples of myths perpetuated by the media. Anchors of a popular news organization saying "Hands up don't shoot" even though we now know that never happened. It's pretty sick. Back to the original question about black managers. We would need. More data points from reliable sources than I have seen to know if there really is a problem. Questions like what percentage of players take their coaching badges across different races are important. How many black applicants are there for jobs and are they as well qualified as white applicants for the same job.? Without seeing the whole picture it's hard to tell whether the problem is real, ,anyone can pick two data points and come to a conclusion that may be way off and news organizations do this all the time. Sad to see the irresponsible approach to "reporting" is not unique to the U.S. Media outlets. What I do know without doubt is positive discrimination is wrong and should be outlawed not encouraged. Proactively promoting someone based on race means someone else is overlooked because they did not fit the required racial profile. That to me is just as bad. Kool Aid. LOL.
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Post by Marco4 on Apr 17, 2015 13:23:02 GMT 1
Back to the original question about black managers. We would need. More data points from reliable sources than I have seen to know if there really is a problem. Questions like what percentage of players take their coaching badges across different races are important. How many black applicants are there for jobs and are they as well qualified as white applicants for the same job.? Its a point I've raised previously, but if you look across the leagues, a great proportion of the managers of today were the defenders/defensively minded midfielders of yesterday - not all, of course, but there seems to be a tendency from those positions to management. Equally, I would say that going back to the time Chris Powell was plying his trade, that black English footballers (why should we expect players that are imported to manage in England?) were more likely to be attack-minded; even now, there's a distinct lack of black goalkeepers. While nobody is screaming that there should be more black goalkeepers (though why not?), simply taking the data set as 'There are X black managers' is simplistic, in my eyes.
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