Tiro
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,792
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Post by Tiro on Jul 27, 2015 13:23:28 GMT 1
I completely disagree. I think these young players have to demand the right to play in the first team like Dempsey did at Carlisle. Why would Powell buy such a player if he didn't believe in youth? They need to up their game and their desire to succeed if they really want to break through. You can't just play these lads simply because they are ours if they aren't good enough. Think Dempsey might make one or two of them start to have a look at themselves. Absolutely! What the majority of Town fans fail to consider or to appreciate time and time again is whether these youngsters are actually ready for first team duty. They base opinions on secondary sources of information (a match write up here and there) or on promise alone - that doesn't make them worthy of the first team and its misguided if that's how we make judgement. Somebody recently questioned why certain players in the development squad haven't been given first team squad numbers, well, perhaps that's a clear indication that they're not ready or don't deserve one. They have to earn the right! There is too much pressure placed upon these lads to make the first team because they are considered, in the minds of some, to be world-beaters; its the Football Manager effect, we've become obsessed with 'wonderkids', we don't judge on merit and anybody above the age of 29 isn't worth a contract. We have no insight whatsoever into the daily performance of these players and should retain a greater degree of patience. Their time will come and it when it does, its up to them to take it.
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Post by AndySk on Jul 27, 2015 13:35:01 GMT 1
Seemed to me that Powell only trusted certain players at the club and was unwilling to give others a go. Edgar a perfect example. Never a CM in a million years but Powell persevered with him there instead of giving one of the other lads a go. We seem to keep saying this is the year a few should break through but think it'll be more of the same this season
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 27, 2015 14:04:15 GMT 1
What more can they do than win the league other than win every game by five or six? How come that Redfearn (a bloke who has faith in young lads) played Byram, Cook, Mowatt, Taylor & a couple more who's names just escape me in their first team when their U21 side finished below us in each of the last two seasons? Maybe we should bring Redfearn into our set up and let us know the secret. Billing was deemed good enough by Robins to get three or four appearances from the bench and Holmes played twenty odd Championship games the season before last but their careers appear to have stalled under Powell. To this date Billing has only made ONE 14 minute substitute appearance at home to Leicester He was also a none playing sub against Bolton but it doesn't make the point I'm making any less credible. Holmes had plenty of appearances under Robins.
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 27, 2015 14:13:45 GMT 1
Both of whom are unproven at this level so far, but we've taken a gamble that they will be good (fingers crossed), whereas we're not prepared to do that with ours. When Lee Clark was appointed he said that our academy wasn't good enough and we needed to widen the search for young lads. We've done that, spent loads on the academy/development squad and now we're getting less out of it than we did under the old style when Gerry Murphy had to get the best out of limited resources. If we don't see any of these lads coming through this season then we may as well scrap it all together. I totally agree we've been overcautious in their introduction, in particular for covering injuries and the back end of last season. However, there's a big difference between the Championship standard now and what the other lads were being introduced to. Hardly any have made a career above League One. That's true but back then we had limited resources and had a league one or two standard academy. Now we've supposedly invested heavily, improved the facilities and our scouting network but we're not seeing any benefit for it. We've been in the Championship for three years now but we only seem to been using players who were developed in other people's academies.
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Post by Headless Chicken on Jul 27, 2015 14:28:03 GMT 1
I totally agree we've been overcautious in their introduction, in particular for covering injuries and the back end of last season. However, there's a big difference between the Championship standard now and what the other lads were being introduced to. Hardly any have made a career above League One. That's true but back then we had limited resources and had a league one or two standard academy. Now we've supposedly invested heavily, improved the facilities and our scouting network but we're not seeing any benefit for it. We've been in the Championship for three years now but we only seem to been using players who were developed in other people's academies. That was long established though. The impact of the changes was never going to be overnight. I really think this is the season that we should be seeing an impact though. Hopefully 2 or 3 will, rather it transpiring we have created an academy with lots 'decent' players, but no one individually good enough to step up.
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Post by wtd on Jul 27, 2015 14:39:06 GMT 1
Yes, their careers have stalled. And perhaps they need to ask themselves why. We've just gone and bought Dempsey and Hiwula. What does that tell you about how ready the management team think Billing, Holmes and Charles are... for now? Both of whom are unproven at this level so far, but we've taken a gamble that they will be good (fingers crossed), whereas we're not prepared to do that with ours.When Lee Clark was appointed he said that our academy wasn't good enough and we needed to widen the search for young lads. We've done that, spent loads on the academy/development squad and now we're getting less out of it than we did under the old style when Gerry Murphy had to get the best out of limited resources. If we don't see any of these lads coming through this season then we may as well scrap it all together. So, again I say... ask yourself why we are buying in young talent (whom I'd wager WILL be in and around the first team) and not promoting our own first. There's a reason for it and it's staring you right in the face. The management team think the likes of Billing, Holmes and Charles are not ready, whether it be their ability or their mindset. Powell isn't an idiot... if these guys were the answer to our problems he would be playing them!!! Why would you not play someone who is going to improve your team and make you a winning manager? Why shoot yourself in the foot like that?
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Post by AndySk on Jul 27, 2015 14:43:34 GMT 1
Both of whom are unproven at this level so far, but we've taken a gamble that they will be good (fingers crossed), whereas we're not prepared to do that with ours.When Lee Clark was appointed he said that our academy wasn't good enough and we needed to widen the search for young lads. We've done that, spent loads on the academy/development squad and now we're getting less out of it than we did under the old style when Gerry Murphy had to get the best out of limited resources. If we don't see any of these lads coming through this season then we may as well scrap it all together. So, again I say... ask yourself why we are buying in young talent (whom I'd wager WILL be in and around the first team) and not promoting our own first. There's a reason for it and it's staring you right in the face. The management team think the likes of Billing, Holmes and Charles are not ready, whether it be their ability or their mindset. Powell isn't an idiot... if these guys were the answer to our problems he would be playing them!!! Why would you not play someone who is going to improve your team and make you a winning manager? Why shoot yourself in the foot like that? But will we ever really know if they're ready until we give them a try in first XI. I dont remember Bunn and Smith ever really been singled out for their performances in U21 but they've made the step up. They're going to be better in the first team as well as they have better players around them. Not saying shove them all in but if Powell didnt think it was right giving a couple of the better ones a go in games against poor teams at the end of last season when we were safe when is the right time?!
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 27, 2015 14:46:00 GMT 1
Both of whom are unproven at this level so far, but we've taken a gamble that they will be good (fingers crossed), whereas we're not prepared to do that with ours.When Lee Clark was appointed he said that our academy wasn't good enough and we needed to widen the search for young lads. We've done that, spent loads on the academy/development squad and now we're getting less out of it than we did under the old style when Gerry Murphy had to get the best out of limited resources. If we don't see any of these lads coming through this season then we may as well scrap it all together. So, again I say... ask yourself why we are buying in young talent (whom I'd wager WILL be in and around the first team) and not promoting our own first. There's a reason for it and it's staring you right in the face. The management team think the likes of Billing, Holmes and Charles are not ready, whether it be their ability or their mindset. Powell isn't an idiot... if these guys were the answer to our problems he would be playing them!!! Why would you not play someone who is going to improve your team and make you a winning manager? Why shoot yourself in the foot like that? If none of our current crop of youngsters are ready or near to being ready then questions should be asked of those running the academy/development set up, because despite the investment its hard to remember a time in recent years where its been so unproductive.
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 27, 2015 14:50:16 GMT 1
So, again I say... ask yourself why we are buying in young talent (whom I'd wager WILL be in and around the first team) and not promoting our own first. There's a reason for it and it's staring you right in the face. The management team think the likes of Billing, Holmes and Charles are not ready, whether it be their ability or their mindset. Powell isn't an idiot... if these guys were the answer to our problems he would be playing them!!! Why would you not play someone who is going to improve your team and make you a winning manager? Why shoot yourself in the foot like that? But will we ever really know if they're ready until we give them a try in first XI. I dont remember Bunn and Smith ever really been singled out for their performances in U21 but they've made the step up. They're going to be better in the first team as well as they have better players around them. Not saying shove them all in but if Powell didnt think it was right giving a couple of the better ones a go in games against poor teams at the end of last season when we were safe when is the right time?! The difference being that Robins & Lillis were prepared to take a gamble and it paid off. If those two hadn't already been in the team when Powell arrived then I doubt they would be now.
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Post by wtd on Jul 27, 2015 14:53:46 GMT 1
So, again I say... ask yourself why we are buying in young talent (whom I'd wager WILL be in and around the first team) and not promoting our own first. There's a reason for it and it's staring you right in the face. The management team think the likes of Billing, Holmes and Charles are not ready, whether it be their ability or their mindset. Powell isn't an idiot... if these guys were the answer to our problems he would be playing them!!! Why would you not play someone who is going to improve your team and make you a winning manager? Why shoot yourself in the foot like that? If none of our current crop of youngsters are ready or near to being ready then questions should be asked of those running the academy/development set up, because despite the investment its hard to remember a time in recent years where its been so unproductive. Fair enough. Ask that question. It's a valid one. But lets not be throwing in players who are not ready simply to validate the expense of running an academy. If they ain't ready they ain't ready! That's why I keep saying the likes of Billing and Holmes need to start asking questions of themselves, and quickly. Sometimes it's in the mind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 14:53:45 GMT 1
So, again I say... ask yourself why we are buying in young talent (whom I'd wager WILL be in and around the first team) and not promoting our own first. There's a reason for it and it's staring you right in the face. The management team think the likes of Billing, Holmes and Charles are not ready, whether it be their ability or their mindset. Powell isn't an idiot... if these guys were the answer to our problems he would be playing them!!! Why would you not play someone who is going to improve your team and make you a winning manager? Why shoot yourself in the foot like that? But will we ever really know if they're ready until we give them a try in first XI. I dont remember Bunn and Smith ever really been singled out for their performances in U21 but they've made the step up. They're going to be better in the first team as well as they have better players around them. Not saying shove them all in but if Powell didnt think it was right giving a couple of the better ones a go in games against poor teams at the end of last season when we were safe when is the right time?! Don't forget, Powell sees them in training five days a week. I'd have liked to see a couple get a bit more of a run out the last half dozen games of the season, just for experience if nothing else. However, the small bits I did see of Charles and Wilkinson didn't make me think they looked ready to be featuring on a regular basis. Think some would definitely benefit from a month or two on loan in L1 or L2.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 14:56:31 GMT 1
So, again I say... ask yourself why we are buying in young talent (whom I'd wager WILL be in and around the first team) and not promoting our own first. There's a reason for it and it's staring you right in the face. The management team think the likes of Billing, Holmes and Charles are not ready, whether it be their ability or their mindset. I suspect that means these players think they're billy big bollocks without having actually achieved anything yet, and maybe do not put in the work or have the right attitude to justify promoting them to the first team.
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Post by yellowbelly on Jul 27, 2015 15:07:47 GMT 1
When it comes to Academy players and the influence of DH's cash and RW's scouting it will take a few years yet. Last season we released Crooks and Sinnott and both these kids were with us before the Academy was transformed in 2009. Nail on head sort of. Are our academy recruits past and present capable of developing into prem or high end champ performers ? Probably not. So why is anyone surprised we do not have product coming through ? small example : A year ago there was a schools championship match being played in the north east with two good goal scoring forwards on show. the second best on the day signed for Town. the outstanding performer signed for Middlesborough. Surprised ? that's the Middlesborough that beat our academy team 5 - 1 in a friendly the other day my feeling is we don't attract the best so how can they be expected to develop into the best ? Developing the best is a long way off, and is somewhat dependent on recruiting the best to start with.
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Post by Porrohman on Jul 27, 2015 16:16:54 GMT 1
Just seen the Wendies are signing Rhoys Wiggins from Charlton for £750k, seems quite expensive to me
Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 27, 2015 16:40:19 GMT 1
So, again I say... ask yourself why we are buying in young talent (whom I'd wager WILL be in and around the first team) and not promoting our own first. There's a reason for it and it's staring you right in the face. The management team think the likes of Billing, Holmes and Charles are not ready, whether it be their ability or their mindset. Powell isn't an idiot... if these guys were the answer to our problems he would be playing them!!! Why would you not play someone who is going to improve your team and make you a winning manager? Why shoot yourself in the foot like that? But will we ever really know if they're ready until we give them a try in first XI. I dont remember Bunn and Smith ever really been singled out for their performances in U21 but they've made the step up. They're going to be better in the first team as well as they have better players around them. Not saying shove them all in but if Powell didnt think it was right giving a couple of the better ones a go in games against poor teams at the end of last season when we were safe when is the right time?! We have to do what Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool do. Get them loans at lower levels to see if they are any good. Would have thought the chances of getting a first team game for our academy players is much higher than Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool academy youngsters.
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Post by jqhtfc on Jul 27, 2015 16:59:00 GMT 1
These lads need to develop this season I've seen plenty of the them the likes of Charles, billing etc are great prospects a i want to see them in and around the first team. Under 21 football isn't the best but that's the only competitive football these lads have to show Powell they are ready, if he isn't go to pick them they need to be sent out on season loans to get some proper experience.
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Post by teddytheterrier on Jul 27, 2015 17:47:00 GMT 1
Have we signed Ronaldo and Sergio Ramos yet?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 17:50:05 GMT 1
Have we signed Ronaldo and Sergio Ramos yet? Ramos wanted a three year deal and we weren't prepared to offer that length of contract given his age
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Post by mykindatown on Jul 27, 2015 18:51:02 GMT 1
Have we signed Ronaldo and Sergio Ramos yet? Ramos wanted a three year deal and we weren't prepared to offer that length of contract given his age Forget the other guy too as he aint a defender and we have plenty of options already up top
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 19:26:11 GMT 1
What more can they do than win the league other than win every game by five or six? How come that Redfearn (a bloke who has faith in young lads) played Byram, Cook, Mowatt, Taylor & a couple more who's names just escape me in their first team when their U21 side finished below us in each of the last two seasons? Maybe we should bring Redfearn into our set up and let us know the secret. Billing was deemed good enough by Robins to get three or four appearances from the bench and Holmes played twenty odd Championship games the season before last but their careers appear to have stalled under Powell. Maybe cook Mowatt and Byram are good enough .. and their town counterparts not good enough ...wtd is spot on in my opinion spot on our youngsters arnt anywhere the quality of mowatt byram and one or two others
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Post by fredcarno1 on Jul 27, 2015 19:37:15 GMT 1
I bet Harry Bunn wouldn't have got a look in under Powell had it not been for the fact that Lillis gave him his debut in the first team. You'll never know if some of the young players will make it unless they get some 1st team game time.
I honestly don't think they'll get much of a look in under Powell unless his hand is forced, he wouldn't even try a couple out in a dead rubber against Blackpool !!
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Post by townrwe on Jul 27, 2015 20:14:08 GMT 1
Powell says he's looking to move a couple on before he gets anymore players in..... looking at the squad unless it's the kids or Hudson, this forum will be in meltdown if it's anyone else!!!
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Jul 27, 2015 20:22:19 GMT 1
Powell says he's looking to move a couple on before he gets anymore players in..... looking at the squad unless it's the kids or Hudson, this forum will be in meltdown if it's anyone else!!! Not if its Joe Murphy and Adam Hammill
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Jul 27, 2015 20:29:57 GMT 1
Or James Vaughan to many of us on here
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 20:36:34 GMT 1
Powell says he's looking to move a couple on before he gets anymore players in..... looking at the squad unless it's the kids or Hudson, this forum will be in meltdown if it's anyone else!!! Not if its Joe Murphy and Adam Hammill would not be surprised to see these two go as for James............
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Post by fredcarno1 on Jul 27, 2015 21:59:04 GMT 1
Just seen the Wendies are signing Rhoys Wiggins from Charlton for £750k, seems quite expensive to me Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards 750K for Charltons reserve fullback !!! Just shows what were up against and why we signed a free from West Brom.
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Jul 27, 2015 22:15:41 GMT 1
It's make or break for Holmes this season - he will be 21 by the end of it and needs to be establishing himself now or I doubt he'll get a new deal
The others are still in there teens, Billing, Charles, Boyle, Wilkinson etc. they've all debuted in the first team so aren't behind. The target is that they kick on and become regulars on the bench making maybe a dozen appearances. I don't expect all of them to make it but I'd be surprised if a couple don't push on this season
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 23:34:52 GMT 1
I see Blackie's beaten Lee to Newcastle. LINK
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Jul 28, 2015 3:33:37 GMT 1
It's make or break for Holmes this season - he will be 21 by the end of it and needs to be establishing himself now or I doubt he'll get a new deal The others are still in there teens, Billing, Charles, Boyle, Wilkinson etc. they've all debuted in the first team so aren't behind. The target is that they kick on and become regulars on the bench making maybe a dozen appearances. I don't expect all of them to make it but I'd be surprised if a couple don't push on this season I feel it is sometimes unfair to suggest make or break seasons for our youngsters when Bunn for example, only established himself to a degree last season and he is almost exactly 2 years older than Holmes. If their age development is on a similar path then it could be as a 22 year old that Duane would become a first team regular. It may be that Holmes may not make it with us but just because they have been with us a longer time, because they joined at a much younger age I feel sometimes they are judged more harshly than their peers. If Holmes had been in Carlisle's system and Dempsey ours, then who's to suggest that Holmes may well have starred at a similar age at League Two level and Dempsey's development delayed and stunted if he was in a Championship club's system.
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Post by ColchTerrier on Jul 28, 2015 9:42:49 GMT 1
Holmes, Billing, Tronstad, Charles etc all need a loan to a league 1,2 club and prove they can do it their first just like Hiwula and Dempsey have done - it's the next step from u21's. Unless they brake on the scene and perform well like Bunn did, but who we going to drop for them to get the chance? Get them some game time on loan with a chance to re-call if we get hampered with injuries. I even think Wallace should go out on loan and we get a decent Cb in on loan ourselves.
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