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Post by Porrohman on May 20, 2015 18:30:29 GMT 1
I think t hey probably can see he needs to bulk up, but his natural physique, unfortunately, is a tiny, very skinny and child-like. I'm no expert, but I cannot see how any amount of work in the gym is going to bulk him up enough to make it at this level. I think that's what they said about Denis Law! I don't think he would have got much protection from the cloggers back in the '60s. Holmes is more Phyllida Law than Denis Law Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on May 20, 2015 19:01:57 GMT 1
If Muggsey Bogues made a successful career in the NBA at 5'3" then i'm sure Duane Holmes can manage in Football at 5'8" It's the size of the fight in the dog that counts. Don't believe all you read, despite being listed at 5'8". Duane is smaller than that, but it shouldn't inhibit his chances if he can bulk up.
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Post by Beech's Nuts on May 20, 2015 19:48:00 GMT 1
If Muggsey Bogues made a successful career in the NBA at 5'3" then i'm sure Duane Holmes can manage in Football at 5'8" It's the size of the fight in the dog that counts. Don't believe all you read, despite being listed at 5'8". Duane is smaller than that, but it shouldn't inhibit his chances if he can bulk up. It's still more accurate than Reece James who's on Wiki as 1.82 m (5 ft 11 1?2 in)!
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Post by Porrohman on May 20, 2015 20:00:00 GMT 1
Don't believe all you read, despite being listed at 5'8". Duane is smaller than that, but it shouldn't inhibit his chances if he can bulk up. It's still more accurate than Reece James who's on Wiki as 1.82 m (5 ft 11 1?2 in)! They've probably added 6" to both of them Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards
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Post by bluesandtwos on May 20, 2015 20:19:03 GMT 1
Duane is a talented player. I am not sure about the bulking up, maybe tricky midfielders don't always need that. From what I have seen of him his biggest problem is decision making, which the coaches can work on. He shoots when a pass would be the better option on many an occasion, but he gets in the positions to do that so he is doing something right. Yes he did give the ball away twice and Swansea scored but on highlights that is what you see, not when players give the ball away and defenders mop up the problem. As has been said earlier he has been the best player on the pitch in a number of under 21 games. As has also been said the coaches are much better placed to see his strengths and weaknesses than people who just catch 'highlights', so I am sure they see a future for the lad, with us or with someone else.
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Post by Captainslapper on May 20, 2015 20:58:16 GMT 1
Hes a one trick pony still and his one trick- dribbling with the ball, is ok but nothing that special. All the other aspects of his game are sadly lacking mainly due to his lack of any physical strength. Unless hes a very late developer, and Im sure the club are monitoring that and helping him how they can, then I can't see him making it as a pro at all, never mind at Towns level. Think the club are being very generous giving him all the chance they can to grow.
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Post by upthetown on May 20, 2015 21:05:18 GMT 1
Hes a one trick pony still and his one trick- dribbling with the ball, is ok but nothing that special. All the other aspects of his game are sadly lacking mainly due to his lack of any physical strength. Unless hes a very late developer, and Im sure the club are monitoring that and helping him how they can, then I can't see him making it as a pro at all, never mind at Towns level. Think the club are being very generous giving him all the chance they can to grow. He's far more than a one trick pony (dribbling, passing, some of his assists, close control, making time on the ball), and the fact the club are being so generous suggests they think the same. Doesn't need to grow physically so much for me, just needs experience and improved decision making as the earlier posted mentioned.
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Post by Bojaj Horseman on May 20, 2015 21:06:33 GMT 1
All those saying he should bulk up may not realise that it could come at a cost of the pace and agility that make him an asset to us.
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Post by upthetown on May 20, 2015 21:08:38 GMT 1
All those saying he should bulk up may not realise that it could come at a cost of the pace and agility that make him an asset to us. Too many in English football are obsessed with size. Biggest thing he can improve, for me, is his decision making. When to lay if off, when to take a man on, when to take the easy option, when to track a run or make an attacking run etc.
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Post by York Terrier on May 20, 2015 21:44:43 GMT 1
All those saying he should bulk up may not realise that it could come at a cost of the pace and agility that make him an asset to us. Too many in English football are obsessed with size. Biggest thing he can improve, for me, is his decision making. When to lay if off, when to take a man on, when to take the easy option, when to track a run or make an attacking run etc. You have a fair point but he is even pushed about at U21 Level
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Post by Sio on May 20, 2015 22:08:28 GMT 1
All those saying he should bulk up may not realise that it could come at a cost of the pace and agility that make him an asset to us. Too many in English football are obsessed with size. Biggest thing he can improve, for me, is his decision making. When to lay if off, when to take a man on, when to take the easy option, when to track a run or make an attacking run etc. Agreed. On the odd occasions he's played for the first team, his decision making and ball retention has let him down massively. Same in the under-21s it seems - being to blame for one or two goals in the final. His running and first touch is fantastic, but he needs to know when to mix it up because he can become predictable.
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Post by upthetown on May 20, 2015 22:18:19 GMT 1
Too many in English football are obsessed with size. Biggest thing he can improve, for me, is his decision making. When to lay if off, when to take a man on, when to take the easy option, when to track a run or make an attacking run etc. Agreed. On the odd occasions he's played for the first team, his decision making and ball retention has let him down massively. Same in the under-21s it seems - being to blame for one or two goals in the final. His running and first touch is fantastic, but he needs to know when to mix it up because he can become predictable. That assist for Vaughan when coming off the bench (vs Blackpool?) shows the talent the kid has. He was the only player that match to try and drive us forward and look for a through ball. Hopefully this will be the year when it clicks in to place for him.
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Post by Captainslapper on May 20, 2015 22:52:35 GMT 1
Hes a one trick pony still and his one trick- dribbling with the ball, is ok but nothing that special. All the other aspects of his game are sadly lacking mainly due to his lack of any physical strength. Unless hes a very late developer, and Im sure the club are monitoring that and helping him how they can, then I can't see him making it as a pro at all, never mind at Towns level. Think the club are being very generous giving him all the chance they can to grow. He's far more than a one trick pony (dribbling, passing, some of his assists, close control, making time on the ball), and the fact the club are being so generous suggests they think the same. Doesn't need to grow physically so much for me, just needs experience and improved decision making as the earlier posted mentioned. You say yourself his decision making isn't great. Id agree, and he will practically always hang on to the ball too long and dribble into trouble or play the wrong pass. His close control whilst running with the ball is his big assett, but other than that I don't see anything really. His passing and vision isn't that great. He'll never win a header. When we don't have the ball he is as much use as a chocolate fireguard and you are effectively a man down. Growing physically is an absolute must for him! Its not about being big and tough , but you have to be able to offer something. Plenty of other small players do but Holmes is like a child in a mans game. Thats why he gets away with it playing U21 against other youngsters and often looks good, but against men even at lower levels he looks totally out of his depth. If he doesn't develop physically A LOT, then he won't make a pro IMO. He did a great bit of play against Blackpool that time and IMo people got well carried away by him because of that one moment. The times Ive seen him since he looks miles away from being good enough to me. But you're right, the club must see potential in there thats worth giving him even longer to develop physically to a point where he might be able to show it. Theyve seen him much more than me, Im only commenting on the relatively few times Ive seen him and the fact he couldn't make any impact in the lower divisions when he had the chance. IMO he might end up having to go abroad where the game is less physical if he's to make it in the game.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 8:51:17 GMT 1
Fail to see the logic in him bulking up. He doesn't have the frame to be phsyically imposing, so why add a load of extra weight to him to slow him down? As others have mentioned, the need for players to be physically strong seems to be very British but what Holmes should be being taught is how to compensate for his size and use it to take advantage; Lionel Messi and David Silva are two examples of players who are small and slightly built but hugely effective.
I also think this thread demonstrates why managers have to be cautious in introducing young players. Unfortunately Holmes has been opened up to a huge amount of pressure and scrutiny as he's featured in the first team more than most during his development. I don't see threads asking whether any other academy graduates will make it, despite them being of similar age to Holmes. He's 20 years old, be patient and trust the judgement of the coaches.
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Post by Essex Terrier on May 21, 2015 9:34:15 GMT 1
Fail to see the logic in him bulking up. He doesn't have the frame to be phsyically imposing, so why add a load of extra weight to him to slow him down? As others have mentioned, the need for players to be physically strong seems to be very British but what Holmes should be being taught is how to compensate for his size and use it to take advantage; Lionel Messi and David Silva are two examples of players who are small and slightly built but hugely effective. I also think this thread demonstrates why managers have to be cautious in introducing young players. Unfortunately Holmes has been opened up to a huge amount of pressure and scrutiny as he's featured in the first team more than most during his development. I don't see threads asking whether any other academy graduates will make it, despite them being of similar age to Holmes. He's 20 years old, be patient and trust the judgement of the coaches. Well said @superstevieharper, what IS this obsession with "bulking up" - he's a footballer, not a night club bouncer! If he is gonna make it he has to develop his own style and method of coping with/dominating the current methods of play.
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Post by teddytheterrier on May 21, 2015 12:41:56 GMT 1
Agreed. On the odd occasions he's played for the first team, his decision making and ball retention has let him down massively. Same in the under-21s it seems - being to blame for one or two goals in the final. His running and first touch is fantastic, but he needs to know when to mix it up because he can become predictable. That assist for Vaughan when coming off the bench (vs Blackpool?) shows the talent the kid has. He was the only player that match to try and drive us forward and look for a through ball. Hopefully this will be the year when it clicks in to place for him. Too many people go on about that pass against Blackpool, he done much else in a town shirt? No? Couldn't even get in at Bury!
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Post by benmsmith4 on May 21, 2015 13:21:55 GMT 1
Give him a half-season loan, if it goes well extend it or let him make some appearances for us. Come back in a years time and see where he is before writing him off, which unfortunately a lot of Town fans tend to do with our young players.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on May 21, 2015 13:32:45 GMT 1
That assist for Vaughan when coming off the bench (vs Blackpool?) shows the talent the kid has. He was the only player that match to try and drive us forward and look for a through ball. Hopefully this will be the year when it clicks in to place for him. Too many people go on about that pass against Blackpool, he done much else in a town shirt? No? Couldn't even get in at Bury! In the same game he also ran from box to box and played a similar pass to Scannell from which we gained a penalty from which Vaughan should have got a winner (see below) In his 2 (TWO) starts for Town, he hasn't had the chance to show what he does regularly for the U-21's. I really couldn't get the clamour for Lolley to be given a chance after a couple of starts and a handful of subs, when exactly the same for Duane seems to have him written off by some already. As for Bury, they went on a run of successive wins like we did during Morrison's first loan spell at Town, when he didn't even get a appearance but that didn't mean he couldn't cut it as we saw in his next spell with us.
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Post by teddytheterrier on May 21, 2015 13:44:44 GMT 1
Too many people go on about that pass against Blackpool, he done much else in a town shirt? No? Couldn't even get in at Bury! In the same game he also ran from box to box and played a similar pass to Scannell from which we gained a penalty from which Vaughan should have got a winner (see below) In his 2 (TWO) starts for Town, he hasn't had the chance to show what he does regularly for the U-21's. I really couldn't get the clamour for Lolley to be given a chance after a couple of starts and a handful of subs, when exactly the same for Duane seems to have him written off by some already. As for Bury, they went on a run of successive wins like we did during Morrison's first loan spell at Town, when he didn't even get a appearance but that didn't mean he couldn't cut it as we saw in his next spell with us. I've seen him numerous times for the u21s and he is usually one of the best players on the pitch! But It's a whole different kettle of fish playing in the first team on a Saturday I'm afraid, he ll have one more season with us then end up like Crooks and Sinnott!
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 17:53:45 GMT 1
It won't be Duane's physicality that holds him back.
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hudmat
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Post by hudmat on May 21, 2015 20:21:02 GMT 1
It won't be Duane's physicality that holds him back. What will it be?
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Post by Captainslapper on May 21, 2015 20:25:03 GMT 1
Fail to see the logic in him bulking up. He doesn't have the frame to be phsyically imposing, so why add a load of extra weight to him to slow him down? As others have mentioned, the need for players to be physically strong seems to be very British but what Holmes should be being taught is how to compensate for his size and use it to take advantage; Lionel Messi and David Silva are two examples of players who are small and slightly built but hugely effective. I also think this thread demonstrates why managers have to be cautious in introducing young players. Unfortunately Holmes has been opened up to a huge amount of pressure and scrutiny as he's featured in the first team more than most during his development. I don't see threads asking whether any other academy graduates will make it, despite them being of similar age to Holmes. He's 20 years old, be patient and trust the judgement of the coaches. You're taking the idea of him bulking up to the extreme. Hes never ever going to be 'physically imposing' and no one could ever expect him to be. But what he MUST do is greatly imrpove his physical strength so that he can withstand a challenge ( which at the moment he can't) and actually put in a challenge, ( which again he can't). Messi and Silva are great players but whilst being small they are also difficult to knock off the ball. Holmes is way too easy and has the frame of a boy. No professional team at any level can afford a midfielder who is so physically weak. He shouldn't have ever been introduced to the first team yet as he clearly isn't ready and its just piled on pressure- mainly because of that one moment against Blackpool that he seems to be rated by in a kind of- 'look what this kid can do, he has enormous potential' way. Needs to be loaned out again to try and get first team experience against men at a level he can get a game. Conference if needs be.
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Post by shawsie on May 21, 2015 20:48:44 GMT 1
Fail to see the logic in him bulking up. He doesn't have the frame to be phsyically imposing, so why add a load of extra weight to him to slow him down? As others have mentioned, the need for players to be physically strong seems to be very British but what Holmes should be being taught is how to compensate for his size and use it to take advantage; Lionel Messi and David Silva are two examples of players who are small and slightly built but hugely effective. I also think this thread demonstrates why managers have to be cautious in introducing young players. Unfortunately Holmes has been opened up to a huge amount of pressure and scrutiny as he's featured in the first team more than most during his development. I don't see threads asking whether any other academy graduates will make it, despite them being of similar age to Holmes. He's 20 years old, be patient and trust the judgement of the coaches. You're taking the idea of him bulking up to the extreme. Hes never ever going to be 'physically imposing' and no one could ever expect him to be. But what he MUST do is greatly imrpove his physical strength so that he can withstand a challenge ( which at the moment he can't) and actually put in a challenge, ( which again he can't). Messi and Silva are great players but whilst being small they are also difficult to knock off the ball. Holmes is way too easy and has the frame of a boy. No professional team at any level can afford a midfielder who is so physically weak. He shouldn't have ever been introduced to the first team yet as he clearly isn't ready and its just piled on pressure- mainly because of that one moment against Blackpool that he seems to be rated by in a kind of- 'look what this kid can do, he has enormous potential' way. Needs to be loaned out again to try and get first team experience against men at a level he can get a game. Conference if needs be. Couldn't disagree more cap'n..... Duane earned the right to be involved in the first team at that time and should have been involved more thereafter at a time when he was confident and positive.....the same happened with lolley when he came and bloody disappeared cos the ruddy manager showed no faith in him. Am sick of lads getting to their early 20s having played parts in 15 or 20 games and then being released.......................lots of lads come into teams at our level or league 1 at 18/19 and stay there...why not ours as well? Look at byram, mowat, cook, Hughes, tarkowski etc...... Holmes has talent you can't coach....he can go past people for ability not just speed, but his decision making does need to improve. Hopefully a good summer and pre season will see the lad fulfil undoubted potential.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on May 21, 2015 20:50:36 GMT 1
Ahhhh this takes me back..... Lovely
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 20:53:10 GMT 1
Ahhhh this takes me back..... Lovely I'm in Shawsies camp for this one.
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Post by shawsie on May 21, 2015 21:00:59 GMT 1
Ahhhh this takes me back..... Lovely Thanks ted......it's been a while! Strangely I have agreed with most of his stuff since his lad got released!
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Post by Chips Longhorn on May 21, 2015 21:06:42 GMT 1
Ahhhh this takes me back..... Lovely Thanks ted......it's been a while! Strangely I have agreed with most of his stuff since his lad got released! I know he's mostly spoke sense on the football for a couple of years now .... Mostly
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Post by Captainslapper on May 21, 2015 21:12:19 GMT 1
Couldn't disagree more cap'n..... Duane earned the right to be involved in the first team at that time and should have been involved more thereafter at a time when he was confident and positive.....the same happened with lolley when he came and bloody disappeared cos the ruddy manager showed no faith in him. Am sick of lads getting to their early 20s having played parts in 15 or 20 games and then being released.......................lots of lads come into teams at our level or league 1 at 18/19 and stay there...why not ours as well? Look at byram, mowat, cook, Hughes, tarkowski etc...... Holmes has talent you can't coach....he can go past people for ability not just speed, but his decision making does need to improve. Hopefully a good summer and pre season will see the lad fulfil undoubted potential. Agree about Lolley- think hes been under-used this season, but IMo he looks a much more likely prospect than Holmes. hes a better, more effective dribbler anyway than Holmes, but has more to his game aswell, which i don't think Holmes has. . All Im saying really about Holmes, is that unless he improves physically, then whatever talent he has, won't be much use as he'll not be a player we can use . One thing Id imagine all those names you mention had in common when they broke through, was that they could compete physically at first team level- and then their ability either comes through or it doesn't. But the 'compete' bit is a must. And up to now Holmes hasn't had that. At 20 hes running out of time to develop it.
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Post by Captainslapper on May 21, 2015 21:14:31 GMT 1
Thanks ted......it's been a while! Strangely I have agreed with most of his stuff since his lad got released! I know he's mostly spoke sense on the football for a couple of years now .... Mostly Well we'll be able to dredge up these threads in a year or two and see who was right I suppose. Ive nothing against the lad, so hopefully it will be me whos wrong.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on May 21, 2015 21:19:51 GMT 1
I know he's mostly spoke sense on the football for a couple of years now .... Mostly Well we'll be able to dredge up these threads in a year or two and see who was right I suppose. Ive nothing against the lad, so hopefully it will be me whos wrong. P Yes it'll be definitely interesting to see how it goes with him... I was bigging him up when he first played for us. He definitely has something.. But for all of the sometimes attractive football of the Robins era there was too much of a soft centre.. And Holmes epitomised that.. But he can do things with the ball others can't.. If he knuckles down and " wants it" enough then we may still have a player on our hands .. But it wouldn't be he biggest surprise ever if he's playing for Guiseley in three years
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