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Post by goodshot (FGS) on May 21, 2015 21:21:59 GMT 1
Couldn't disagree more cap'n..... Duane earned the right to be involved in the first team at that time and should have been involved more thereafter at a time when he was confident and positive.....the same happened with lolley when he came and bloody disappeared cos the ruddy manager showed no faith in him. Am sick of lads getting to their early 20s having played parts in 15 or 20 games and then being released.......................lots of lads come into teams at our level or league 1 at 18/19 and stay there...why not ours as well? Look at byram, mowat, cook, Hughes, tarkowski etc...... Holmes has talent you can't coach....he can go past people for ability not just speed, but his decision making does need to improve. Hopefully a good summer and pre season will see the lad fulfil undoubted potential. Agree about Lolley- think hes been under-used this season, but IMo he looks a much more likely prospect than Holmes. hes a better, more effective dribbler anyway than Holmes, but has more to his game aswell, which i don't think Holmes has. . All Im saying really about Holmes, is that unless he improves physically, then whatever talent he has, won't be much use as he'll not be a player we can use . One thing Id imagine all those names you mention had in common when they broke through, was that they could compete physically at first team level- and then their ability either comes through or it doesn't. But the 'compete' bit is a must. And up to now Holmes hasn't had that. At 20 hes running out of time to develop it. Walked past Holmes in the car park a few weeks back and I was surprised that he looks pretty strong from a few yards away. Well muscled. Probably not going to get too much stronger than he is now.
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Post by shawsie on May 21, 2015 22:03:29 GMT 1
Couldn't disagree more cap'n..... Duane earned the right to be involved in the first team at that time and should have been involved more thereafter at a time when he was confident and positive.....the same happened with lolley when he came and bloody disappeared cos the ruddy manager showed no faith in him. Am sick of lads getting to their early 20s having played parts in 15 or 20 games and then being released.......................lots of lads come into teams at our level or league 1 at 18/19 and stay there...why not ours as well? Look at byram, mowat, cook, Hughes, tarkowski etc...... Holmes has talent you can't coach....he can go past people for ability not just speed, but his decision making does need to improve. Hopefully a good summer and pre season will see the lad fulfil undoubted potential. Agree about Lolley- think hes been under-used this season, but IMo he looks a much more likely prospect than Holmes. hes a better, more effective dribbler anyway than Holmes, but has more to his game aswell, which i don't think Holmes has. . All Im saying really about Holmes, is that unless he improves physically, then whatever talent he has, won't be much use as he'll not be a player we can use . One thing Id imagine all those names you mention had in common when they broke through, was that they could compete physically at first team level- and then their ability either comes through or it doesn't. But the 'compete' bit is a must. And up to now Holmes hasn't had that. At 20 hes running out of time to develop it. To me robins showed how good a manager he is with his treatment of lolley and Holmes - crap and no balls!. Both came under the spotlight from nowhere but after promising cameos were hardly seen along with scannell whilst wasters like hammill and ward did bugger all most of the time but played most weeks. Contrast that with powells treatment of bunn....a regular starter when fit and has flourished with an arm around him telling him he's a decent player. Likewise scannell. Am not for a minute suggesting Powell is the messiah, but it can't be said he won't give lads a chance.
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Post by Captainslapper on May 21, 2015 23:23:15 GMT 1
Don't agree with that at all. Robins picked Hammill and Ward over Scannell, Lolley and Holmes because they played better and produced more. They both deserved to play ahead of those 3. And as for Bunn, it was an easy decision for Powell to give him lots of game time because he took his chance really well and was one of our best players during that period early last season when he was breaking into the starting team. Neither Holmes or Lolley managed that or anything like it.
Bunn and Scannell ( eventually!) earned their gametime and whilst IMO Lolley has shown enough to warrant more than hes had, I don't think Holmes has.
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Post by shawsie on May 21, 2015 23:34:05 GMT 1
Don't agree with that at all. Robins picked Hammill and Ward over Scannell, Lolley and Holmes because they played better and produced more. They both deserved to play ahead of those 3. And as for Bunn, it was an easy decision for Powell to give him lots of game time because he took his chance really well and was one of our best players during that period early last season when he was breaking into the starting team. Neither Holmes or Lolley managed that or anything like it. Bunn and Scannell ( eventually!) earned their gametime and whilst IMO Lolley has shown enough to warrant more than hes had, I don't think Holmes has. Holmes has only started twice cap'n!!!!! Bunn was here for ages before making his mark but Powell unlike robins kept faith in him and gave him a run. Bunn took his chance I agree but robins treatment of scannell was embarrassing! Even when he played half decent he was dropped........poor man management just like when he brought in a young lolley brimming full of youthful endeavour and never ruddy used him despite hammill and ward being utter shite from Xmas onwards! Big 3/4 months coming up for duane....if he ain't in our 18 as we get into the season it will be tough for him here and he may need to go out on loan again.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 23:35:17 GMT 1
Agree about Lolley- think hes been under-used this season, but IMo he looks a much more likely prospect than Holmes. hes a better, more effective dribbler anyway than Holmes, but has more to his game aswell, which i don't think Holmes has. . All Im saying really about Holmes, is that unless he improves physically, then whatever talent he has, won't be much use as he'll not be a player we can use . One thing Id imagine all those names you mention had in common when they broke through, was that they could compete physically at first team level- and then their ability either comes through or it doesn't. But the 'compete' bit is a must. And up to now Holmes hasn't had that. At 20 hes running out of time to develop it. To me robins showed how good a manager he is with his treatment of lolley and Holmes - crap and no balls!. Both came under the spotlight from nowhere but after promising cameos were hardly seen along with scannell whilst wasters like hammill and ward did bugger all most of the time but played most weeks. Contrast that with powells treatment of bunn....a regular starter when fit and has flourished with an arm around him telling him he's a decent player. Likewise scannell. Am not for a minute suggesting Powell is the messiah, but it can't be said he won't give lads a chance. Good points with Scannell and Bunn. I don't recall Lolley or Holmes being used any differently under Powell than Robins though, has Holmes even played for Powell?
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Post by htfcfcfc on May 21, 2015 23:41:21 GMT 1
Didn't Lillis bring Bunn into the team? Sure he started and scored at Reading
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Post by shawsie on May 21, 2015 23:43:46 GMT 1
To me robins showed how good a manager he is with his treatment of lolley and Holmes - crap and no balls!. Both came under the spotlight from nowhere but after promising cameos were hardly seen along with scannell whilst wasters like hammill and ward did bugger all most of the time but played most weeks. Contrast that with powells treatment of bunn....a regular starter when fit and has flourished with an arm around him telling him he's a decent player. Likewise scannell. Am not for a minute suggesting Powell is the messiah, but it can't be said he won't give lads a chance. Good points with Scannell and Bunn. I don't recall Lolley or Holmes being used any differently under Powell than Robins though, has Holmes even played for Powell? Disagree cods....lolley was often injured last season and when not he wasn't delivering like bunn and scanz so couldn't get much of a look in. The point I make re Powell is he seemed to have the balls to play guys who delivered despite youth or pre conceived ideas eg bunn, scanz, goburn and the chances given to miller and Carroll for example. Big pre season for the likes of billing, Charles, Holmes, goburn, lolley.....if they kick on it will be an exciting campaign next season IMO.
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Post by Captainslapper on May 21, 2015 23:51:01 GMT 1
Robins introduced Bunn to 1st team football with 3 late sub appearences ( about 15 minutes in total). He did ok but nothing to make you think he need to be starting. It was just letting a young player have a taste of it late on in a season when we were safe. Nothing wrong in that and Powell was able to give him another chance early last season and he grabbed it with both hands. Robins doesn't deserve any criticism for his treatment of Bunn at all IMO. Praise if anything for bringing him into the 1st team. But in comparrison to Holmes, the difference is obvious. Bunn is physically up to it.
The only thing that was embarrassing about Robins treatment of Scannell was Scannells performances pretty much every time Robins started with him! It was deja-vu over and over again. Come on as a sub.. look brilliant...earn a start...look uninterested and ineffective...get rightly subbed off... go back on bench next game......and repeat. Hammill and Ward were no great shakes, but they were both consistently better when starting than Scannell was.
Do agree about Lolley though. Very very raw but I thought both Robins and Powell should have given him longer on the pitch than they did so far.
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Post by wtd on May 22, 2015 6:45:50 GMT 1
Let's not kid ourselves, he's a lot to do and the odds aren't great with his loan record so far. He's done little in his brief appearances to date to show me he is anything other than someone you can bring on for a late cameo. His first half appearance against Leeds was extremely poor. The argument about size only applies if you are as good as an Iniesta or a Xavi or, as a direct comparison at our level, Pritchard at Brentford. I hope he comes through... but, for me, it is hope over expectation.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 7:27:50 GMT 1
Good points with Scannell and Bunn. I don't recall Lolley or Holmes being used any differently under Powell than Robins though, has Holmes even played for Powell? Disagree cods....lolley was often injured last season and when not he wasn't delivering like bunn and scanz so couldn't get much of a look in. The point I make re Powell is he seemed to have the balls to play guys who delivered despite youth or pre conceived ideas eg bunn, scanz, goburn and the chances given to miller and Carroll for example. Big pre season for the likes of billing, Charles, Holmes, goburn, lolley.....if they kick on it will be an exciting campaign next season IMO. Which is why I can't understand you accusing Robins of 'lacking balls' in his treatment of them. Gobern and Carroll were also given plenty of opportunity to shine, but Carroll especially wasn't up to standard, hence he's now gone. Remember Powell had plenty of stick on here last season for 'lacking the balls' to use such as Lolley, Holmes, Charles and Billing! Next 12 months will be interesting.
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bigfatmonkey
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Post by bigfatmonkey on May 22, 2015 11:02:55 GMT 1
Don't agree with that at all. Robins picked Hammill and Ward over Scannell, Lolley and Holmes because they played better and produced more. They both deserved to play ahead of those 3. And as for Bunn, it was an easy decision for Powell to give him lots of game time because he took his chance really well and was one of our best players during that period early last season when he was breaking into the starting team. Neither Holmes or Lolley managed that or anything like it. Bunn and Scannell ( eventually!) earned their gametime and whilst IMO Lolley has shown enough to warrant more than hes had, I don't think Holmes has. Holmes has only started twice cap'n!!!!! Bunn was here for ages before making his mark but Powell unlike robins kept faith in him and gave him a run. Bunn took his chance I agree but robins treatment of scannell was embarrassing! Even when he played half decent he was dropped........poor man management just like when he brought in a young lolley brimming full of youthful endeavour and never ruddy used him despite hammill and ward being utter shite from Xmas onwards! Big 3/4 months coming up for duane....if he ain't in our 18 as we get into the season it will be tough for him here and he may need to go out on loan again. Same with Grayson and Arfield. I remember being down at Cardiff for a night match near the start of our first season back in this division, Arfield was our best player then immediately dropped!
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 11:07:26 GMT 1
Let's not kid ourselves, he's a lot to do and the odds aren't great with his loan record so far. He's done little in his brief appearances to date to show me he is anything other than someone you can bring on for a late cameo. His first half appearance against Leeds was extremely poor. The argument about size only applies if you are as good as an Iniesta or a Xavi or, as a direct comparison at our level, Pritchard at Brentford. I hope he comes through... but, for me, it is hope over expectation. It's clear he has lots of talent. Do we give him time?
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Post by waltzingthecowshed on May 22, 2015 12:32:32 GMT 1
The biggest thing that Duane needs to add to his game is goals imo, he's had chances too score in the first team and just hasn't had the composure and his attempts have gone just wide....similar story when ive seen him in U21's , plenty of 1 on 1 with no end product. If he(or any other of our U21 hopefuls)ups his goal tally then it puts pressure on CP to get him involved in the first team, good luck to him hope he proves the detractors wrong like Scanz has
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Post by AndySk on May 22, 2015 12:35:15 GMT 1
Not a Powell type player at all. Cant see him playing much here
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Post by Captainslapper on May 22, 2015 14:26:32 GMT 1
The biggest thing that Duane needs to add to his game is goals imo, he's had chances too score in the first team and just hasn't had the composure and his attempts have gone just wide....similar story when ive seen him in U21's , plenty of 1 on 1 with no end product. If he(or any other of our U21 hopefuls)ups his goal tally then it puts pressure on CP to get him involved in the first team, good luck to him hope he proves the detractors wrong like Scanz hasScannell hasn't proved anybody wrong. People said he was usually great when he came on as a sub and usually rubbish when he started games, so didn't deserve to start games, and overall throughout his first 2 years here a big let down and waste of money. They were right- he was. All hes proved is how much better than that he can play. He hasn't changed history!
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Post by SaudiTerrier on May 22, 2015 14:34:36 GMT 1
Not a Powell type player at all. Cant see him playing much here Even if he wont play much for us under Powell we should be keeping hold of him and loaning him out to play elsewhere where he'll either develop and come back to play for us, or stay away to increase his worth for us to sell.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on May 22, 2015 19:21:59 GMT 1
Imo HOLMES should of gone, , nothing compared to the sweet Bunn.
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Post by wtd on May 22, 2015 19:55:19 GMT 1
Let's not kid ourselves, he's a lot to do and the odds aren't great with his loan record so far. He's done little in his brief appearances to date to show me he is anything other than someone you can bring on for a late cameo. His first half appearance against Leeds was extremely poor. The argument about size only applies if you are as good as an Iniesta or a Xavi or, as a direct comparison at our level, Pritchard at Brentford. I hope he comes through... but, for me, it is hope over expectation. It's clear he has lots of talent. Do we give him time? Yep... let's give him time. However he's 20 not sixteen, he's not going to grow any and he hasn't yet made enough of an impact at the club to demand a place in the team. Something is obviously missing from his game, so what are we hoping is going to change exactly? I sincerely hope I'm wrong and he becomes a first team regular next season (if it isn't next season then will it be the one after or the one after that?)... but I have my doubts.
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Post by bluesandtwos on May 22, 2015 20:43:01 GMT 1
The reality is sometimes players just click, or they don't. All the analysis in the world will not be able to predict what Holmes will do if he gets a run next season. If he starts well and has a couple of good games he could be a star, if he has a couple of mares we may not see him again. I suppose given the central role he plays you have to wonder who would get dropped to fit him in?
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Post by impact on May 22, 2015 20:52:31 GMT 1
I can't see him playing much unless Butterfield is injured. Our midfield would be too lightweight with both of them in it. It's either one or the other, and Butterfield is a far better player.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 20:52:37 GMT 1
Holmes seems like a player who could do amazing things, but has to be playing in the right team structure for it to work.
Town's academy have been full of these types over my 20 years of watching. Antony Lloyd, Holdsworth, Collins. All have different styles, but when they played for us they simply fitted in with what we were trying to do at that time. After leaving us, a lot dropped down the leagues even when many thought they were decent and solid players.
England see it too. Some players thrive (Andros Townsend, Crouch, Welbeck), some players just can't seem do it (Kevin Phillips, Gareth Barry, Ashely Young) even though their domestic football is good.
Holmes' unsuccessful loans don't rule a great career out (based upon ability anyway). He a very specific type player who fits one certain role; a luxury role which is there to create chances. In today's game it isn't as common as it once was, and he'll have to adapt his game a touch to find more playing opportunity, hopefully not losing the 'edge' he has shown in the academy.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on May 22, 2015 21:02:14 GMT 1
I can't see him playing much unless Butterfield is injured. Our midfield would be too lightweight with both of them in it. It's either one or the other, and Butterfield is a far better player. He needs to go on loan and play games. He should be doing things now
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 21:08:47 GMT 1
I can't see him playing much unless Butterfield is injured. Our midfield would be too lightweight with both of them in it. It's either one or the other, and Butterfield is a far better player. He needs to go on loan and play games. He should be doing things now What, like playing cricket Nick?
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Post by waltzingthecowshed on May 22, 2015 22:57:19 GMT 1
The biggest thing that Duane needs to add to his game is goals imo, he's had chances too score in the first team and just hasn't had the composure and his attempts have gone just wide....similar story when ive seen him in U21's , plenty of 1 on 1 with no end product. If he(or any other of our U21 hopefuls)ups his goal tally then it puts pressure on CP to get him involved in the first team, good luck to him hope he proves the detractors wrong like Scanz has Scannell hasn't proved anybody wrong.People said he was usually great when he came on as a sub and usually rubbish when he started games, so didn't deserve to start games, and overall throughout his first 2 years here a big let down and waste of money. They were right- he was. All hes proved is how much better than that he can play. He hasn't changed history! Really! this one of yours....... "Smithies and gerrard, our 2 most consistant players by a long way since we went up. Not a fan of scannel. His stats tell a story and he looks uninterested a lot of the time imo. Think hes a very big earner so it would be hard to move him on, even if we wanted to, as his next club is likely to be someone like brentford or a lleague 1 club"Read more: downatthemac.proboards.com/thread/92297/sean-scannell?page=1#ixzz3auHvwKkR
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Post by Captainslapper on May 23, 2015 0:04:31 GMT 1
You seem to be under the illusion that Scannell has somehow developed a time machine and gone back and changed history. All that post was bang on when it was posted.. I wasn't a fan of him and he had looked uninterested a lot of the time with lousy stats to back that up, and but for the intervention of Powell his next club would have been 'like Brentford' , only not as good as in Millwall- a soon to be League 1 club.
Obviously the way he played last season changed my opinion of him and I like him a lot now. But it doesn't alter how crap hed been for the 2 previous seasons or how right everyone had been to think he'd been an expensive flop. Far from proving people wrong, hes proved them RIGHT! - That he had a lot of ability but not the effort or commitment to actually show it.
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Post by Skint Terriers on May 23, 2015 0:18:11 GMT 1
I don't understand all this about him needing to bulk up? That's not his game at all, he uses being small and nimble to his advantage when dribbling so why ruin goods best ability just to make a few on here happy?
His loans haven't been great it's not hard to see that but there are good reasons why. At Yeovil it was shit management and at Bury they were on a good run and had a better option in Duanes strongest position. It definitely wasn't 'we don't do that on training at Huddersfield' which someone made up about the poor lad on here. I wouldn't loan him out tbh, I'd stick him on our bench he's be a great attacking option to come on and will no doubt make things happen because that's what he does best but apparently he needs to bulk up?
Can someone please name me a physical attacking midfielder? All the top ones I can think of are pretty small and weak. How is David Silva playing in the premier league he's not even physical enough for the championship
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Post by Captainslapper on May 23, 2015 0:26:07 GMT 1
David Silva is like Akinfenwa compared to Holmes!
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on May 23, 2015 0:40:21 GMT 1
He sure gets a lot of air time on this board does our Duane for somebody who's allegedly not up to the task or never will be. I look forward to the day when Duane is being touted by the top clubs and Humble pie is top of the menu down at Canalside.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on May 23, 2015 8:18:03 GMT 1
He sure gets a lot of air time on this board does our Duane for somebody who's allegedly not up to the task or never will be. I look forward to the day when Duane is being touted by the top clubs and Humble pie is top of the menu down at Canalside. You will be waiting a long time imo, too small and one dimensional.
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Post by Porrohman on May 23, 2015 12:04:44 GMT 1
Only on here could Duane Holmes be put against other small players love Law, Messi and Silva. They may be similar in stature but slightly different in ability otherwise he wouldn't be at Town
Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards
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