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Post by bridgeterrier on Jun 2, 2015 9:10:22 GMT 1
12th. I think we should have achieved that last season and but for some pretty poor luck in a few home games late in the season, then we might have done better than that even. Think we have the owner, the facilities, the manager and the bulk of a squad to finish top half, maybe even toy with a push for top 6. ( centre back and right back needed as priorities IMO) . By far the main thing thats holding the club back is the apathy of the people of the area who aren't getting behind their club in big enough numbers. i always wonder about the criticism of stay away fans. Surely their appearance or not is the perfect barometer of Town's success, or not...the quality of the product, and the price. We have around 9,000 die hards (or loyal fans...) and potentially , depending on what is happening with our club anything between 3,000 and 20,000 'casual' fans in our catchment area. Obviously the stadium only allows 20,000 home fans in anyway, so really we're looking at 11,000 extra as being the maximum. At the moment (last season) we had 3,000 casual fans on average, and obviously would like another 3,000 to bring our home support up to something like 15,000 - plus away fans...so gates of 16,500..a reasonable gate I would think.? For the 'die hards' , paying an average of around £16 per game it must seem frustrating we can't persuade a casual fan to come down and pay £32-£35 to watch a game...on a regular basis. My local Londis wanted to boost the number of customers too, after introducing a loyalty scheme for their regulars with vouchers and discounts. Despite plenty of advertising non of the locals liked the fact that products on the shelves had two price labels...a bottle of Shiraz £4.99 for the 'regulars' who joined the loyalty scheme, and £9.95 for the new customers. In talking to the shop owner he explained that he was bemused as to why he wasn't attracting new customers, despite extensive advertising..his products were priced pretty much the same as other 'quality outlet' convenience stores, he said. He also added that his loyalty scheme had retained a good core of loyal customers but that he wasn't really covering his costs and his future investment plans were in jeopardy due to shortage of cash. He also added that only when he runs a special offer week-end ,when he cuts his prices as part of a promotion, does he find that those elusive customers actually turn up and buy his products. I left him shaking his head, bemused as to why his long thought out strategy had failed so badly... Anywhere above the bottom 3 but 15th or higher would be better. Another week and another pop at the club for its pricing Detox, what would be your master plan to get more people in then?
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jun 2, 2015 9:13:42 GMT 1
if you don't aim for first place then whats the point of being in the competition in the first place? I agree, nowt wrong with aiming for first place, but the post is titled " Probable Finish...." and anyone who really thinks we will probably be champions is surely deluded?
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Post by teddytheterrier on Jun 2, 2015 9:15:15 GMT 1
I think some people may be disappointed, come the end of the season? Well, they should have taken it more seriously then? For what it is worth, as of this moment, I reckon 56 of them are deluded - we have no chance of being top 10. I hope that I too will be disappointed, come the end of the season! At least we only have one person who thinks we will be relegated - and that MUST be a good sign? I'm expecting more of the same as this season tbh, or another slight improvement! We seem to be making baby steps so possibly 14th or 15th I'd go for! I'd be over the moon if we finished top half! Depends on what players come in! Gonna be hard to finish first with all these teams with mega budgets and better players!
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Post by teddytheterrier on Jun 2, 2015 9:16:19 GMT 1
if you don't aim for first place then whats the point of being in the competition in the first place? Farsley are you going for the 'if your not first your last approach' lol
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Post by gledholt terrier on Jun 2, 2015 9:18:15 GMT 1
i always wonder about the criticism of stay away fans. Surely their appearance or not is the perfect barometer of Town's success, or not...the quality of the product, and the price. We have around 9,000 die hards (or loyal fans...) and potentially , depending on what is happening with our club anything between 3,000 and 20,000 'casual' fans in our catchment area. Obviously the stadium only allows 20,000 home fans in anyway, so really we're looking at 11,000 extra as being the maximum. At the moment (last season) we had 3,000 casual fans on average, and obviously would like another 3,000 to bring our home support up to something like 15,000 - plus away fans...so gates of 16,500..a reasonable gate I would think.? For the 'die hards' , paying an average of around £16 per game it must seem frustrating we can't persuade a casual fan to come down and pay £32-£35 to watch a game...on a regular basis. My local Londis wanted to boost the number of customers too, after introducing a loyalty scheme for their regulars with vouchers and discounts. Despite plenty of advertising non of the locals liked the fact that products on the shelves had two price labels...a bottle of Shiraz £4.99 for the 'regulars' who joined the loyalty scheme, and £9.95 for the new customers. In talking to the shop owner he explained that he was bemused as to why he wasn't attracting new customers, despite extensive advertising..his products were priced pretty much the same as other 'quality outlet' convenience stores, he said. He also added that his loyalty scheme had retained a good core of loyal customers but that he wasn't really covering his costs and his future investment plans were in jeopardy due to shortage of cash. He also added that only when he runs a special offer week-end ,when he cuts his prices as part of a promotion, does he find that those elusive customers actually turn up and buy his products. I left him shaking his head, bemused as to why his long thought out strategy had failed so badly... Anywhere above the bottom 3 but 15th or higher would be better. Another week and another pop at the club for its pricing Detox, what would be your master plan to get more people in then? Thought it was a pretty decent analysis myself. Fact is, promotions will maybe keep the head above the water, but it will be excitement and success which will reduce price sensitivity and increase crowds. This doesn't impact the loyal, who have a relatively high threshold for disappointment. Me included.
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jun 2, 2015 9:30:45 GMT 1
if you don't aim for first place then whats the point of being in the competition in the first place? I agree, nowt wrong with aiming for first place, but the post is titled " Probable Finish...." and anyone who really thinks we will probably be champions is surely deluded? Some of us are "glass half full" type of guys I bet the Bournemouth fans didn't expect to win the Championship this time last year, but to quote your hero..."its a funny old game, its a funny old game"
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jun 2, 2015 9:32:51 GMT 1
Anywhere above the bottom 3 but 15th or higher would be better. Another week and another pop at the club for its pricing Detox, what would be your master plan to get more people in then? Thought it was a pretty decent analysis myself. Fact is, promotions will maybe keep the head above the water, but it will be excitement and success which will reduce price sensitivity and increase crowds. This doesn't impact the loyal, who have a relatively high threshold for disappointment. Me included. That's the key!
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jun 2, 2015 9:40:57 GMT 1
Where will we finish next season? Last year I guessed 11th and was 5 spots out. I am plumping for 11th again for next season and reckon we'll be closer..... Because I know you really want to know, in the 13/14 season I went for 16th (so pretty close...), 12/14 season I went for 12th (OK, ambitious and way off...) let's see what the DATM consensus is............... This straw poll is a perfect example of how and why bookies make money. 75% have us in the top half....laughable as things stand. We could make the top six, its possible...but very unlikely. Nearer the bottom i am afraid.
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Post by detox on Jun 2, 2015 10:23:07 GMT 1
i always wonder about the criticism of stay away fans. Surely their appearance or not is the perfect barometer of Town's success, or not...the quality of the product, and the price. We have around 9,000 die hards (or loyal fans...) and potentially , depending on what is happening with our club anything between 3,000 and 20,000 'casual' fans in our catchment area. Obviously the stadium only allows 20,000 home fans in anyway, so really we're looking at 11,000 extra as being the maximum. At the moment (last season) we had 3,000 casual fans on average, and obviously would like another 3,000 to bring our home support up to something like 15,000 - plus away fans...so gates of 16,500..a reasonable gate I would think.? For the 'die hards' , paying an average of around £16 per game it must seem frustrating we can't persuade a casual fan to come down and pay £32-£35 to watch a game...on a regular basis. My local Londis wanted to boost the number of customers too, after introducing a loyalty scheme for their regulars with vouchers and discounts. Despite plenty of advertising non of the locals liked the fact that products on the shelves had two price labels...a bottle of Shiraz £4.99 for the 'regulars' who joined the loyalty scheme, and £9.95 for the new customers. In talking to the shop owner he explained that he was bemused as to why he wasn't attracting new customers, despite extensive advertising..his products were priced pretty much the same as other 'quality outlet' convenience stores, he said. He also added that his loyalty scheme had retained a good core of loyal customers but that he wasn't really covering his costs and his future investment plans were in jeopardy due to shortage of cash. He also added that only when he runs a special offer week-end ,when he cuts his prices as part of a promotion, does he find that those elusive customers actually turn up and buy his products. I left him shaking his head, bemused as to why his long thought out strategy had failed so badly... Anywhere above the bottom 3 but 15th or higher would be better. Another week and another pop at the club for its pricing Detox, what would be your master plan to get more people in then? yes, it is a pop at the pricing strategy at the club...and year on year I continue to be proved right as gates dwindle despite our elevated level to the 2nd tier after so many years in the lower reaches. I am pleased to see the Clibbens has trimmed his match category system to 3 groups rather than 5...he's slowly 'getting it' and will eventually abandon this scheme..so there's hope. That's one issue which affects the casual fans only and probably one of the main reasons they stay away.It's got to the stage now that you'd be lucky to know, in advance of appearing at the turnstile, exactly how much the admission is for any particular game...this is not a coincidence but a deliberate policy by the club. I've waxed lyrical many times as you will know, so don't see the point in repeating myself again...suffice to say that with 10,000 empty seats every week and the negative affect that has on atmosphere I see nothing new from Town to address the issues. The SC lobby are a powerful force and the club are right to listen to their concerns about cut pricing that undervalues their SC purchase...but...the disparity (the discount) between SC prices and pay at the gate is too high..despite concessions for kids, OAPS and special offers for odd games. If there was ONE thing I would like to see it would be a 'partial' season card made available. Not the ridiculous take 10 effort which has had no impact whatsoever, but a genuine buy half a season (12 games), on payment terms the same as an equivalent full SC interest free terms..Attend any game you like when you like and priced at around 15% (or so) higher than a full SC. Simple, easy to understand and you just turn up with your card like a SC holder does. Even I would buy one of those and would attend more games than I do now..but a Take 10 (or whatever it's called..) ? too much faff, and you still pay a premium for the match category..which a full SC holder does not..(as such).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 10:42:58 GMT 1
if you don't aim for first place then whats the point of being in the competition in the first place? I agree, nowt wrong with aiming for first place, but the post is titled " Probable Finish...." and anyone who really thinks we will probably be champions is surely deluded? not really, although I did vote for us finishing second. I've got a gut feeling we're going to have a really good season. Just because an opinion isn't the same as yours does not make someone deluded.
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Post by Floyds on Jun 2, 2015 10:47:57 GMT 1
I do agree with the above, in that the pricing seems all over the place, in terms of categories, match day premium charging, Take 5/10 etc.
However, it isn't in the Club's interest to get more people in the ground, paying lower prices.
With a set fee per person (regardless of how much they paid to get in), they'd have to shift an awful lot of discounted tickets to not lose money when compared to fewer people paying higher prices. Clibbens obviously believes (or knows) that the latter is the more economically beneficial strategy to take, based on the take up of the lower prices.
Having said all this, the above is a short term view to maximise this season's revenues. The cost of youngsters not coming at an early age because their dad can no longer afford it can't really be quantified.
A difficult one to balance.
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jun 2, 2015 15:39:11 GMT 1
I agree, nowt wrong with aiming for first place, but the post is titled " Probable Finish...." and anyone who really thinks we will probably be champions is surely deluded? not really, although I did vote for us finishing second. I've got a gut feeling we're going to have a really good season. Just because an opinion isn't the same as yours does not make someone deluded. Look, I'm not saying you're deluded because just you disagree with me - I am shite at this stuff at the best of times - I am saying you're deluded (no offence) because we struggled to 15th last season and I can see no reason why we won't struggle to improve by a place or two this year at best, while other clubs are arriving with their pockets stuffed with cash from Russion Oligarchs or via parachute payments and we are spending three bob (that's 15p for you younger readers!) on 33 year old cast off's from teams who couldn't get to the Premiership via the playoffs. But you could be right and we'll win the damn thing! I'll be DM'ing you in May no doubt? I LOVE a good gloat!
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jun 2, 2015 17:11:47 GMT 1
not really, although I did vote for us finishing second. I've got a gut feeling we're going to have a really good season. Just because an opinion isn't the same as yours does not make someone deluded. Look, I'm not saying you're deluded because just you disagree with me - I am shite at this stuff at the best of times - I am saying you're deluded (no offence) because we struggled to 15th last season and I can see no reason why we won't struggle to improve by a place or two this year at best, while other clubs are arriving with their pockets stuffed with cash from Russion Oligarchs or via parachute payments and we are spending three bob (that's 15p for you younger readers!) on 33 year old cast off's from teams who couldn't get to the Premiership via the playoffs. But you could be right and we'll win the damn thing! I'll be DM'ing you in May no doubt? I LOVE a good gloat! Steady on, you'll be advocating the introduction of a few young'uns if you're not careful
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ligament
Darren Bullock Terrier
[M0:10] those were the days........
Posts: 874
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Post by ligament on Jun 2, 2015 17:25:32 GMT 1
11th with l**ds 17th just for cellino
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jun 2, 2015 17:36:19 GMT 1
common sense and recent experience says we will do well to be mid table..
being a football fan and not knowing as yet who we may sign or if the end of season form might continue, then a bit of delusion is acceptable..
a minor progression is the thing that's hard to sell to the floating fans..
if we go at the new season in a similar way to finishing the last, they will sell it to me but as im am already a convert you just have to hope its good enough to attract the waivering..
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Post by Captainslapper on Jun 2, 2015 18:38:40 GMT 1
yes, it is a pop at the pricing strategy at the club...and year on year I continue to be proved right as gates dwindle despite our elevated level to the 2nd tier after so many years in the lower reaches. I am pleased to see the Clibbens has trimmed his match category system to 3 groups rather than 5...he's slowly 'getting it' and will eventually abandon this scheme..so there's hope. That's one issue which affects the casual fans only and probably one of the main reasons they stay away.It's got to the stage now that you'd be lucky to know, in advance of appearing at the turnstile, exactly how much the admission is for any particular game...this is not a coincidence but a deliberate policy by the club. I've waxed lyrical many times as you will know, so don't see the point in repeating myself again...suffice to say that with 10,000 empty seats every week and the negative affect that has on atmosphere I see nothing new from Town to address the issues. The SC lobby are a powerful force and the club are right to listen to their concerns about cut pricing that undervalues their SC purchase...but...the disparity (the discount) between SC prices and pay at the gate is too high..despite concessions for kids, OAPS and special offers for odd games. If there was ONE thing I would like to see it would be a 'partial' season card made available. Not the ridiculous take 10 effort which has had no impact whatsoever, but a genuine buy half a season (12 games), on payment terms the same as an equivalent full SC interest free terms..Attend any game you like when you like and priced at around 15% (or so) higher than a full SC. Simple, easy to understand and you just turn up with your card like a SC holder does. Even I would buy one of those and would attend more games than I do now..but a Take 10 (or whatever it's called..) ? too much faff, and you still pay a premium for the match category..which a full SC holder does not..(as such). I certainly agree with you re- category games. There wasn't any need for it in the past and there isn't now. Im sure it has a detrimental effect on gates, its all so faffy. Theres technical reasons why a half season ticket like you suggest might not work. Do you get a seat reserved? Can the club reserve you a seat even though youre not going to be there half the time? Do you get an unreserved seat? How does that effect big games that might more or less sell out- where you gonne sit then? Its difficult to do when they don't know if you're going to attend or not. But overall our prices are reasonable compared to our peers, cheap even. Yet the people of the area aren't getting behind the club. About 3000 down on what they ought to be IMO. the clubs tried all sorts of things and nothing seems to change our support numbers much and recently its even been falling- in complete contrast to the product on the pitch which is better than its been for a long time. It was the same issue back in the Rubery era 15 years ago. Best product for years, best league position for years, yet no noticeable improvement in gate size. Hard to know what the club can try next- theyve tried so many different schemes over the years. Maybe we just need a big cup run to spark interest. Maybe its just down to being so long outside of the top flight and without any huge home games ( man Utd, Arsenal etc) in either league or cup? Dunno, but it must be very frustrating and disappointing for the owner.
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Post by detox on Jun 2, 2015 20:41:50 GMT 1
yes, it is a pop at the pricing strategy at the club...and year on year I continue to be proved right as gates dwindle despite our elevated level to the 2nd tier after so many years in the lower reaches. I am pleased to see the Clibbens has trimmed his match category system to 3 groups rather than 5...he's slowly 'getting it' and will eventually abandon this scheme..so there's hope. That's one issue which affects the casual fans only and probably one of the main reasons they stay away.It's got to the stage now that you'd be lucky to know, in advance of appearing at the turnstile, exactly how much the admission is for any particular game...this is not a coincidence but a deliberate policy by the club. I've waxed lyrical many times as you will know, so don't see the point in repeating myself again...suffice to say that with 10,000 empty seats every week and the negative affect that has on atmosphere I see nothing new from Town to address the issues. The SC lobby are a powerful force and the club are right to listen to their concerns about cut pricing that undervalues their SC purchase...but...the disparity (the discount) between SC prices and pay at the gate is too high..despite concessions for kids, OAPS and special offers for odd games. If there was ONE thing I would like to see it would be a 'partial' season card made available. Not the ridiculous take 10 effort which has had no impact whatsoever, but a genuine buy half a season (12 games), on payment terms the same as an equivalent full SC interest free terms..Attend any game you like when you like and priced at around 15% (or so) higher than a full SC. Simple, easy to understand and you just turn up with your card like a SC holder does. Even I would buy one of those and would attend more games than I do now..but a Take 10 (or whatever it's called..) ? too much faff, and you still pay a premium for the match category..which a full SC holder does not..(as such). I certainly agree with you re- category games. There wasn't any need for it in the past and there isn't now. Im sure it has a detrimental effect on gates, its all so faffy. Theres technical reasons why a half season ticket like you suggest might not work. Do you get a seat reserved? Can the club reserve you a seat even though youre not going to be there half the time? Do you get an unreserved seat? How does that effect big games that might more or less sell out- where you gonne sit then? Its difficult to do when they don't know if you're going to attend or not. But overall our prices are reasonable compared to our peers, cheap even. Yet the people of the area aren't getting behind the club. About 3000 down on what they ought to be IMO. the clubs tried all sorts of things and nothing seems to change our support numbers much and recently its even been falling- in complete contrast to the product on the pitch which is better than its been for a long time. It was the same issue back in the Rubery era 15 years ago. Best product for years, best league position for years, yet no noticeable improvement in gate size. Hard to know what the club can try next- theyve tried so many different schemes over the years. Maybe we just need a big cup run to spark interest. Maybe its just down to being so long outside of the top flight and without any huge home games ( man Utd, Arsenal etc) in either league or cup? Dunno, but it must be very frustrating and disappointing for the owner. it's a fair comment about 'reserved seating', but our highest attendance in the past 3 years was against barnsley when we had 21.614..so there was still 3,000 empty seats. Even the Leeds games never topped 21,000 (3,500 empty seats)..so it's never been an issue...but....to allow for all contingencies each ticket issued would have an allocated seat, in the stand they chose. If it came to a potential sell out, ie a big game, how many of the fans who bought this package would actually not go ? Let's assume they sold 2,000 part season tickets..surely most of these fans would attend the biggest games, and for those that dont, what 10%-20% ? 200 to 400 fans..well as I said, we've never had more than 21,614 so far.. I was thinking that the club could email all the fans to ask if they were going to attend, then thought that was too much of a faff...some wouldn't reply then would turn up.,..not worth the aggro...so basically i'd say even a part SC guarantees you you a seat whenever you decide to go. based on past history our gates are not going to ever make this a problem. Of course cup ties are all pay, so this doesn't come in to it. If town actually started to do well, and we were filling the ground..then a clear 'condition' would have to be inserted into the part SC deal..you have to contact the club to 'reserve' your seat - (if you're going) . ? tbh, I can't see Town getting 20,000 home supporters, and the point is when we start to do well (as we will..) then the scheme could be scrapped and just full SC sold ..the part SC is just to try and entice fans while we are meandering along in mid table... With so much spare capacity in the stadium it seems madness to me that match day prices or a SC for a full season are the only practical options open to Town fans...
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