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Post by Barbieterrier on Jul 27, 2015 20:53:01 GMT 1
Great comment at the end from Town too. So the extra £1.50 per ticket x 7 that Ben paid for Hull away tickets is to cut down on queues at the ticket office on home match days. Cracking stuff Town. I've just had a very detailed and long response from Nigel Clibbens via email. I haven't repied as of yet but will be doing shortly. I won't copy the whole email in as its longer than a shawsie post (only joking mate, its shorter than one of your posts ).
Context Booking fees for both home or away advance ticket purchases (not pay-at-the-turnstile), have been applied by the Club, depending on the different types of ticket purchase methods, for many years. They are not new and have always been publicised on the website and referred to in the Club Charter www.htafc.com/club/clubcharter/
Historically, when selling home or away advance tickets, in some cases:
* postage was payable on some types of purchase but not on others; this was confusing * when ticket office staff processed ticket purchases by email (for online) fees were payable, but when ticket office staff processed ticket purchases by phone fees were not payable (except credit/debit charge) * collecting tickets on a matchday, after buying by phone, incurred no fee (except credit/debit charge)
Processing tickets purchases over the phone with later collection is by far the most costly and time consuming method for us to administer, but no fees were levied in the past. It requires staff to take the booking, work thorough the seat selection process and then the payment process. Finally, at a later date, staff to issue the tickets at the window. Phone buyers, especially where they then collected tickets in person later (in particular match days) were being subsidised by other supporters.
We appreciate some supporters may be faced with additional costs. For example, those supporters, wishing to purchase an away ticket, in advance, who are not able or do not wish to buy in person, or who are not regular visitors to home games or the stadium, will then face a new cost (as they don't have a print at home option) from phoning and posting, with least options to avoid it.
However, selling, handling and posting tickets in such circumstances incurs costs and it is fair that supporters purchasing by this method make a contribution to the Club's costs. Again we are aware many think £1.50 per ticket is too much. We have chosen a simple charge to spread the total cost we are trying to deal with, over the total number of tickets sold by that method. Were we to move a to a per transaction method the financial impact would not be sufficient for the club and therefore the per transaction charge would need to be even higher.
Feedback The Club and the Chairman have, as always, been reflecting on the feedback from fans about the fees and Club's general approach to them. We have received four emails and some personal comments to ticket office staff. However, on social media and the main fans' forum DATM, there has been far more adverse comments, some very critical. Accusations of fans being "ripped off", £1.50 per ticket being unjustified (per transaction is more acceptable), calls for boycotts and fans saying they will no longer buy tickets. They certainly show the Board and the Chairman what fans think and how they think the Club's views them as supporters. We respect the opinions and they give us all food for thought, especially the Chairman as Owner and funder of losses and investment.
I understand the club has to cut its cloth accordingly. We are losing half a million a month on average, so we have to balance the books which I accept. But why not charge £1.50 per booking rather than per ticket? £10.50 worth of charges on 7 tickets on the same booking seems excessive to me when I've bought a season card at £350, will likely travel to 75% of away games, bought a canalside membership and spent a bob or two in there. I'm not going to boycott the club or away games because of this charge but I'm very disappointed that such a charge has been brought in whilst our support base dwindles. And it is, so things like this will not help.
Ben £1.50 per ticket is still not justifable for a process mostly done on a system with the exception of stuffing an envelope. As a season ticket holder also have we not invested in this season? It's okay saying Hoyle covers loss but there will be more losses without the fans.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 20:59:31 GMT 1
How are we losing half a million a month?? That seems like an obscene amount of money.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 21:03:47 GMT 1
How are we losing half a million a month?? That seems like an obscene amount of money. It is, I was a bit surprised when he said that but don't doubt what he says.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 21:21:59 GMT 1
£6 million a year loss over the last few years, thought that was fairly common knowledge.
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Post by shawsie on Jul 27, 2015 21:26:51 GMT 1
I've just had a very detailed and long response from Nigel Clibbens via email. I haven't repied as of yet but will be doing shortly. I won't copy the whole email in as its longer than a shawsie post (only joking mate, its shorter than one of your posts ).
Context Booking fees for both home or away advance ticket purchases (not pay-at-the-turnstile), have been applied by the Club, depending on the different types of ticket purchase methods, for many years. They are not new and have always been publicised on the website and referred to in the Club Charter www.htafc.com/club/clubcharter/
Historically, when selling home or away advance tickets, in some cases:
* postage was payable on some types of purchase but not on others; this was confusing * when ticket office staff processed ticket purchases by email (for online) fees were payable, but when ticket office staff processed ticket purchases by phone fees were not payable (except credit/debit charge) * collecting tickets on a matchday, after buying by phone, incurred no fee (except credit/debit charge)
Processing tickets purchases over the phone with later collection is by far the most costly and time consuming method for us to administer, but no fees were levied in the past. It requires staff to take the booking, work thorough the seat selection process and then the payment process. Finally, at a later date, staff to issue the tickets at the window. Phone buyers, especially where they then collected tickets in person later (in particular match days) were being subsidised by other supporters.
We appreciate some supporters may be faced with additional costs. For example, those supporters, wishing to purchase an away ticket, in advance, who are not able or do not wish to buy in person, or who are not regular visitors to home games or the stadium, will then face a new cost (as they don't have a print at home option) from phoning and posting, with least options to avoid it.
However, selling, handling and posting tickets in such circumstances incurs costs and it is fair that supporters purchasing by this method make a contribution to the Club's costs. Again we are aware many think £1.50 per ticket is too much. We have chosen a simple charge to spread the total cost we are trying to deal with, over the total number of tickets sold by that method. Were we to move a to a per transaction method the financial impact would not be sufficient for the club and therefore the per transaction charge would need to be even higher.
Feedback The Club and the Chairman have, as always, been reflecting on the feedback from fans about the fees and Club's general approach to them. We have received four emails and some personal comments to ticket office staff. However, on social media and the main fans' forum DATM, there has been far more adverse comments, some very critical. Accusations of fans being "ripped off", £1.50 per ticket being unjustified (per transaction is more acceptable), calls for boycotts and fans saying they will no longer buy tickets. They certainly show the Board and the Chairman what fans think and how they think the Club's views them as supporters. We respect the opinions and they give us all food for thought, especially the Chairman as Owner and funder of losses and investment.
I understand the club has to cut its cloth accordingly. We are losing half a million a month on average, so we have to balance the books which I accept. But why not charge £1.50 per booking rather than per ticket? £10.50 worth of charges on 7 tickets on the same booking seems excessive to me when I've bought a season card at £350, will likely travel to 75% of away games, bought a canalside membership and spent a bob or two in there. I'm not going to boycott the club or away games because of this charge but I'm very disappointed that such a charge has been brought in whilst our support base dwindles. And it is, so things like this will not help.
Ben £1.50 per ticket is still not justifable for a process mostly done on a system with the exception of stuffing an envelope. As a season ticket holder also have we not invested in this season? It's okay saying Hoyle covers loss but there will be more losses without the fans. Thanks ben!
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Post by seenitallbefore on Jul 27, 2015 21:28:48 GMT 1
Clibbens manages, not for the first time, to make it sound like he finds it a real ball-ache to to have to deal with the supporters.
It's obviously a huge inconvenience to have to sell us tickets.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 21:29:01 GMT 1
Ben £1.50 per ticket is still not justifable for a process mostly done on a system with the exception of stuffing an envelope. As a season ticket holder also have we not invested in this season? It's okay saying Hoyle covers loss but there will be more losses without the fans. Thanks ben! I love your posts really shawsie!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 21:30:34 GMT 1
Clibbens manages, not for the first time, to make it sound like he finds it a real ball-ache to to have to deal with the supporters. It's obviously a huge inconvenience to have to sell us tickets. I found his email very well put together and he, as he has before, was very helpful.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 21:31:01 GMT 1
Clibbens manages, not for the first time, to make it sound like he finds it a real ball-ache to to have to deal with the supporters.
It's obviously a huge inconvenience to have to sell us tickets. Don't know what gives you that impression. Think he sets at the reasons for the charge pretty well, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.
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Post by jimmymac on Jul 27, 2015 21:34:39 GMT 1
Who cares about £1.50....??good on him.....we would be fked without him......
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 21:39:30 GMT 1
Old news, thought everyone knew. LINK
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 21:43:24 GMT 1
Clibbens manages, not for the first time, to make it sound like he finds it a real ball-ache to to have to deal with the supporters. It's obviously a huge inconvenience to have to sell us tickets. Take it you didn't attend the Q&A at Millbridge WMC last season, or indeed watch the live stream provided courtesy of the NSL? He was excellent and answered all the questions openly, and concisely. The only question he was vague in answering was in relation to the ladies team, which was in the news at the time. The club have since come to an agreement with the Ladies team that suits all parties I believe.
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Post by seenitallbefore on Jul 27, 2015 21:56:35 GMT 1
Clibbens manages, not for the first time, to make it sound like he finds it a real ball-ache to to have to deal with the supporters.
It's obviously a huge inconvenience to have to sell us tickets. Don't know what gives you that impression. Think he sets at the reasons for the charge pretty well, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. It's when he uses phrases such as 'costly and time-consuming' when he's referring to supporters ringing up to buy tickets and when he refers to this method of purchasing as 'incurring costs'. He just sounds (to me at least!) like he'd be much happier if the club didn't have to 'incur costs' like these...pesky supporters, ringing up and giving us their money...
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Post by seenitallbefore on Jul 27, 2015 22:14:51 GMT 1
Clibbens manages, not for the first time, to make it sound like he finds it a real ball-ache to to have to deal with the supporters. It's obviously a huge inconvenience to have to sell us tickets. Take it you didn't attend the Q&A at Millbridge WMC last season, or indeed watch the live stream provided courtesy of the NSL? He was excellent and answered all the questions openly, and concisely. The only question he was vague in answering was in relation to the ladies team, which was in the news at the time. The club have since come to an agreement with the Ladies team that suits all parties I believe. I saw the stream. In this case though, I'd suggest that the new charge hasn't been introduced in the most 'open' way possible - surely an article and explanation on the website isn't too much to ask?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 22:18:53 GMT 1
Don't know what gives you that impression. Think he sets at the reasons for the charge pretty well, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. It's when he uses phrases such as 'costly and time-consuming' when he's referring to supporters ringing up to buy tickets and when he refers to this method of purchasing as 'incurring costs'. He just sounds (to me at least!) like he'd be much happier if the club didn't have to 'incur costs' like these...pesky supporters, ringing up and giving us their money... What do you expect from an accountant, costs are his business.
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Post by seenitallbefore on Jul 27, 2015 22:25:04 GMT 1
It's when he uses phrases such as 'costly and time-consuming' when he's referring to supporters ringing up to buy tickets and when he refers to this method of purchasing as 'incurring costs'. He just sounds (to me at least!) like he'd be much happier if the club didn't have to 'incur costs' like these...pesky supporters, ringing up and giving us their money... What do you expect from an accountant, costs are his business. I'd expect him to know that without supporters, he won't have a business.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 22:28:32 GMT 1
Without income to cover cost he won't have a business.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 22:32:47 GMT 1
Take it you didn't attend the Q&A at Millbridge WMC last season, or indeed watch the live stream provided courtesy of the NSL? He was excellent and answered all the questions openly, and concisely. The only question he was vague in answering was in relation to the ladies team, which was in the news at the time. The club have since come to an agreement with the Ladies team that suits all parties I believe. I saw the stream. In this case though, I'd suggest that the new charge hasn't been introduced in the most 'open' way possible - surely an article and explanation on the website isn't too much to ask? It could have been announced better I agree, however, "TOWN INCREASE COST OF PURCHASING TICKETS" doesn't make a great headline on the official website. I'll be honest, as a supporter with a season card, that attends about 4 or five away games a season, I'm not getting wound up about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 22:38:01 GMT 1
If you attend home games and buy away tickets at same time ticketing fee is FREE (Headline)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 22:41:02 GMT 1
What do you expect from an accountant, costs are his business. I'd expect him to know that without supporters, he won't have a business. The man who owns the business has an accountant to do the costing, and you don't like him using phrases like "incurring costs"? Yeah right.
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Post by seenitallbefore on Jul 27, 2015 22:43:04 GMT 1
I saw the stream. In this case though, I'd suggest that the new charge hasn't been introduced in the most 'open' way possible - surely an article and explanation on the website isn't too much to ask? It could have been announced better I agree, however, "TOWN INCREASE COST OF PURCHASING TICKETS" doesn't make a great headline on the official website. I'll be honest, as a supporter with a season card, that attends about 4 or five away games a season, I'm not getting wound up about it. If they are only going to put good news stories on the website, then there won't be too many match reports on there!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 22:46:37 GMT 1
[/quote]If they are only going to put good news stories on the website, then there won't be too many match reports on there![/quote]
Did you not see the good news. FREE ticketing!
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Post by artysid on Jul 28, 2015 8:11:57 GMT 1
Do away Clubs get a fee for selling tickets? Otherwise why would Clubs like Leeds who sell 2-3,000 for every game with no corresponding volume bother?
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Post by bridgeterrier on Jul 28, 2015 8:20:35 GMT 1
Do away Clubs get a fee for selling tickets? Otherwise why would Clubs like Leeds who sell 2-3,000 for every game with no corresponding volume bother? 5% of the ticket cost I believe, that's to help cover the costs of selling the tickets. That's in the football League rulebook.
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Post by seenitallbefore on Jul 28, 2015 8:48:16 GMT 1
I'd expect him to know that without supporters, he won't have a business. The man who owns the business has an accountant to do the costing, and you don't like him using phrases like "incurring costs"? Yeah right. Not when he's talking about supporters buying tickets, no. When I buy a ticket, I incur the cost.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 8:55:56 GMT 1
The man who owns the business has an accountant to do the costing, and you don't like him using phrases like "incurring costs"? Yeah right. Not when he's talking about supporters buying tickets, no. When I buy a ticket, I incur the cost. Spoken like an accountant. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 9:13:55 GMT 1
How are we losing half a million a month?? That seems like an obscene amount of money. £6 million a year loss over the last few years, thought that was fairly common knowledge. Old news, thought everyone knew. LINKIt is fairly common knowledge thanks, but I asked how – as in how are we still losing the same amount on average? Anyone know the accounts more in depth than the general categories the club posts the numbers under?
Surely we are well in the + on net spending regarding transfers since we came up?I just downloaded the accounts from Companies House.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 9:21:37 GMT 1
How are we losing half a million a month?? That seems like an obscene amount of money. £6 million a year loss over the last few years, thought that was fairly common knowledge. Old news, thought everyone knew. LINKIt is fairly common knowledge thanks, but I asked how – as in how are we still losing the same amount on average? Anyone know the accounts more in depth than the general categories the club posts the numbers under? Surely we are well in the + on net spending regarding transfers since we came up? At a guess, wages will have increased dramatically since we came up. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using proboards
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 28, 2015 9:41:22 GMT 1
If you attend home games and buy away tickets at same time ticketing fee is FREE (Headline) If everybody bought their away tickets when they attended the home games the queue would be round the block and there's also the possibility that people who live far away or find it inconvenient to get to the ground on non match days will be left disappointed when they'd sold out. I still can't see how it takes more time to process a phone or online order than it does if you turn up in person. Companies these days are encouraging people to order online as its supposedly cheaper than buying it in the shops. In the case that Ben highlighted on the first page, if him and his mates had all gone to the ticket office and each bought their tickets one after the other (incurring no fee), that would have taken far more time to process than him ringing up, ordering all seven and paying in one transaction.
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 28, 2015 9:47:50 GMT 1
I'd expect him to know that without supporters, he won't have a business. The man who owns the business has an accountant to do the costing, and you don't like him using phrases like "incurring costs"?Yeah right. Did theses costs not occur in previous years or were they included in the ticket price? If the club had made an announcement on the website prior to implementing this and explained the reasons behind it then there might not have been such a furore, but it smacks of trying to sneak it in the back door and hoping nobody will notice.
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