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Post by Captainslapper on Oct 8, 2015 0:51:21 GMT 1
That might be all well and good and id agree in principle, but the problem is we are trying to compete with clubs who have much bigger fanbases than we do and in a division where lots of clubs get huge parachute payments too.
This idea that we can charge our small fanbase half what everyone else does ( cos its scandalous if we don't!!) and still play in this division is a weird one.
Less income means a worse team and none of these missing fans are going to turn up to watch Town lose every weak even if its £20 on the door.
Bucking the trend= relegation
Bradford buck the trend and can't even compete that well in league 1 against much smaller clubs, so how on earth could Town buck the trend in the Championship and still compete against much bigger , richer ones??
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Oct 8, 2015 1:15:05 GMT 1
That might be all well and good and id agree in principle, but the problem is we are trying to compete with clubs who have much bigger fanbases than we do and in a division where lots of clubs get huge parachute payments too. This idea that we can charge our small fanbase half what everyone else does ( cos its scandalous if we don't!!) and still play in this division is a weird one. Less income means a worse team and none of these missing fans are going to turn up to watch Town lose every weak even if its £20 on the door. Bucking the trend= relegation Bradford buck the trend and can't even compete that well in league 1 against much smaller clubs, so how on earth could Town buck the trend in the Championship and still compete against much bigger , richer ones?? To buck the trend, even with the financial odds stacked against us, all it takes is a decent manager who can make the parts add up to more than the whole. I don't suppose Ian Greaves bucked any financial trends, but he did create a team, and bucked an apathy/go nowhere trend which had existed for several years in the sixties. We flogged all our decent players in the early to mid-sixties as well! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 1:21:46 GMT 1
That might be all well and good and id agree in principle, but the problem is we are trying to compete with clubs who have much bigger fanbases than we do and in a division where lots of clubs get huge parachute payments too. This idea that we can charge our small fanbase half what everyone else does ( cos its scandalous if we don't!!) and still play in this division is a weird one. Less income means a worse team and none of these missing fans are going to turn up to watch Town lose every weak even if its £20 on the door. Bucking the trend= relegation Bradford buck the trend and can't even compete that well in league 1 against much smaller clubs, so how on earth could Town buck the trend in the Championship and still compete against much bigger , richer ones?? It's all about finding the right balance, I didn't say anywhere we should charge half what everyone else is, but it's the job of people like Clibbens to find the balance between investing in the team, and keeping folk coming through the turnstiles. Part of the reason we have a shrinking fan base is because he is getting that wrong, trying to blame it on the rest of football is just a cop out. Bradford are in the situation they are in because they haven't found that balance either, their tickets being too cheap means they have naff all to invest. |
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Post by jimmymac on Oct 8, 2015 4:46:26 GMT 1
It just isn't this regime though is it.....this board is just following on from previous boards in my opinion.....from 1908-to the late 1960,s I would say Huddersfield Town was a stable football club finacially.....then in 1972 til now its all gone so wrong.....we have never really come back from the late 60,s....its been a nightmare ever since we got relegated to the 2nd tier in 1972.....so like I say its not just this regime that's got it wrong .....the last 40 odd years as been a rollercoaster ride......UTT......
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Post by gledholt terrier on Oct 8, 2015 5:09:01 GMT 1
It just isn't this regime though is it.....this board is just following on from previous boards in my opinion.....from 1908-to the late 1960,s I would say Huddersfield Town was a stable football club finacially.....then in 1972 til now its all gone so wrong.....we have never really come back from the late 60,s....its been a nightmare ever since we got relegated to the 2nd tier in 1972.....so like I say its not just this regime that's got it wrong .....the last 40 odd years as been a rollercoaster ride......UTT...... From 1908 to the 60s there was a thing called the maximum wage. The only differential was size of support and even then that wasn't massively disruptive - clubs cheated by paying players under the table to attract them but it wasn't particularly effective. It's no coincidence that Town became a club which was largely in the bottom 2 divisions rather than the top 2 divisions when the wage restraint ended. The only way to break through this ceiling and become established in the higher divisions is by relying on the wealth and ambition of individual Directors - which is what you've been seeing these last 6 or 7 years. Even with money, it is no guarantee - coz other clubs get the same financial boost (look how hard it was to compete even in L1 with some of the teams who were down there) Seems to me that when the going gets tough, too many Town fans wilt, piss and moan. If fans want success, they have to play their part - some do (NSL, for example, identify an atmosphere problem and do something positive about it) while many cant take being a small fish in a big pool and just want one man to spend more and more to try to get a winning team - then they might come back and watch, |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 5:55:13 GMT 1
Said it before and will say it again. Clibbens is a numbers monkey. Town wont progress while he is employed. You'd certainly hope so, with him being an accountant. he's a leeds fan isn't he? yeah like leeds fans* who happen to be accountants have great track records.... |
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Post by iangreaves on Oct 8, 2015 7:38:50 GMT 1
True enough, but he's also one of the main reasons for the scandalous ticket pricing that has come into force, which in turn has pushed hundreds if not thousands of fans away. He also thinks that Town have a solid fanbase of 10,000 that will turn up regardless of price, how wrong that is proving to be. He may be a good numbers man, but the fact is that it is scary just how far out of touch he is with what is needed to get fans back through the turnstiles at this club. Even more worrying is that he appears to be paying little or no attention to what the situation is 'on the ground', the very reason the ATT panel was set up was so that the man himself could hear directly from the fans exactly what is needed, he appears to show little or no genuine interest to what is being said to him, so what was a good initiative has now become somewhat of a farce. He may have had a hand in our transfer successes, but it's not like he scouted and identified the likes of Rhodes, Pilks, Butterfield, etc, and I'm almost certain that we'd have still received the money we did for those players if someone else with a reasonable degree of competency was in the role he is. Just my opinion but at the moment he is causing this club more harm than good. It's going to cost hundreds of thousands to get back those fans that were lost through his shambolic pricing structure. re ticket prices- you're blaming Nigel Clibbens for something that has been going on throughout english football for many years at all clubs across the board. OUR 'scandelous ticket pricing' is just a reflection of the way the game is and indeed ours are actually on the low side compared to our competitors. I don't know whether other clubs are suffering the same collapse in attendances. According to these figures from the football league, average Championship attendances were up seven per cent last year; ours were down five per cent: www.football-league.co.uk/documents/average-attendance549-2598153.pdfSomebody on the attendances thread said we have lost 3,000 fans over the last three years. That rate of loss is unsustainable for a club like ours. Yet Clibbens insists that prices and attendances are inelastic. I think he probably needs to get his head out of his books and see what's actually happening. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 8:15:49 GMT 1
re ticket prices- you're blaming Nigel Clibbens for something that has been going on throughout english football for many years at all clubs across the board. OUR 'scandelous ticket pricing' is just a reflection of the way the game is and indeed ours are actually on the low side compared to our competitors. I don't know whether other clubs are suffering the same collapse in attendances. According to these figures from the football league, average Championship attendances were up seven per cent last year; ours were down five per cent: www.football-league.co.uk/documents/average-attendance549-2598153.pdfSomebody on the attendances thread said we have lost 3,000 fans over the last three years. That rate of loss is unsustainable for a club like ours. Yet Clibbens insists that prices and attendances are inelastic. I think he probably needs to get his head out of his books and see what's actually happening. 3k over 3 years? Jesus H Christ I hadn't realised it was that bad. Has somebody got our attendance stats over the last 3 seasons? |
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Post by iangreaves on Oct 8, 2015 8:35:09 GMT 1
I don't know whether other clubs are suffering the same collapse in attendances. According to these figures from the football league, average Championship attendances were up seven per cent last year; ours were down five per cent: www.football-league.co.uk/documents/average-attendance549-2598153.pdfSomebody on the attendances thread said we have lost 3,000 fans over the last three years. That rate of loss is unsustainable for a club like ours. Yet Clibbens insists that prices and attendances are inelastic. I think he probably needs to get his head out of his books and see what's actually happening. 3k over 3 years? Jesus H Christ I hadn't realised it was that bad. Has somebody got our attendance stats over the last 3 seasons? Just referring to what detox posted on the attendances thread: |
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chinaski
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Post by chinaski on Oct 8, 2015 8:40:37 GMT 1
The quandary for floating fans at the moment isn't necessarily that it's too expensive, they just don't think the entertainment on offer is worth >£20. There are so many variables that go into your average non-SC holder turning up to pay on the day - the sake of a few extra quid probably ranks quite low in their decision.
Of course the attendances have dropped considerably since our first year back in the second tier in over ten years, that was inevitable - unless we established ourselves as perennial play off contenders.
If the football improves, the crowds improve.
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Post by iangreaves on Oct 8, 2015 8:41:30 GMT 1
According to those Football League stats I linked to, our average gate in 2012-13 was 15,068. I've just done a quick calculation of our average home gate so far this season. It is 11,161. The difference is 3,906 - so worse than the number quoted in the attendances thread.
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chinaski
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Post by chinaski on Oct 8, 2015 8:46:11 GMT 1
According to those Football League stats I linked to, our average gate in 2012-13 was 15,068. I've just done a quick calculation of our average home gate so far this season. It is 11,161. The difference is 3,906 - so worse than the number quoted in the attendances thread. Small sample. That figure for this season will be considerably higher after the three home games post MK. |
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Post by iangreaves on Oct 8, 2015 8:51:17 GMT 1
According to those Football League stats I linked to, our average gate in 2012-13 was 15,068. I've just done a quick calculation of our average home gate so far this season. It is 11,161. The difference is 3,906 - so worse than the number quoted in the attendances thread. Small sample. That figure for this season will be considerably higher after the three home games post MK. Time will tell, but Blackburn, Bolton and Forest were amongst our better attendances last season. |
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Post by specialun on Oct 8, 2015 9:00:21 GMT 1
Clibbens has more of an insolvency background - qualified accountant maybe but not necessarily a numbers man. He'd not have been doing the accounts!
He's perfect if your looking to reshape / cut costs in your business and would have had a good few contacts if you wanted to have an argument over a fransfer of shares...or have an office to watch trains from. Perfect on all 3 Id have thought from the start?
His background is on linked ... he joined from a middle of the road team and hadnt reached and wasnt going to reach the top of his profession or 1. He'd have stayed there 2. He'd have made it by his age
He will have no / limited experience running a football club before this or growing a business - his experience being on the other foot
He was a perfect fit at the time hoyle took over... But time / the situation has moved on....
Ive said before, the group of directors now is as it was in league 1. Are they all (some maybr) good enough for us to progress? The answer you may argue is yes...?
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Post by AndySk on Oct 8, 2015 9:08:16 GMT 1
The 'thinking' begin the £3 pay on the day increase was it would mean more people would buy tickets before the game, then if, for whatever reason, that fan couldn't make the game who cares as town have already got their money out of him/her. Bollocks to the fans as long as they're getting the coin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 9:13:24 GMT 1
I like the bloke
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 9:29:58 GMT 1
I like him too, time we had a Nigel appreciation society.  Get the flags made |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 9:34:07 GMT 1
I like him too, time we had a Nigel appreciation society. Get the flags made I can even hear the Italian job themed song |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Oct 8, 2015 9:37:01 GMT 1
captain he has been an accountant for a business losing millions? when you lose millions cutting back and still losing a shitload isnt too hard.. making millions and cutting overheads is the tough one.. With respect galpharm, clibbens has overseen an uplift in partner income, a recent reduction in the club wage bill which hasnt coincided in a fall in our fortunes on the pitch and receipt of transfer income of well in excess of 15m in the last 3/4 years. Thats not a bad resume imho. By all means criticise some aspects of his tenure eg ticket pricing, poor marketing etc but the club is making progress - itsnot as quick or as exciting as many would like, but its still progress nevertheless. never said it wasnt.. having jordan rhodes turn into 8 million quid certainly helped.. the club killing what crowds we might have been able to attain is , in my view, not progress. going from a position of spending money like our hair was on fire to selling players to start towards balancing the books isnt great accounting.. |
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Post by Mecha Corte on Oct 8, 2015 9:38:16 GMT 1
According to those Football League stats I linked to, our average gate in 2012-13 was 15,068. I've just done a quick calculation of our average home gate so far this season. It is 11,161. The difference is 3,906 - so worse than the number quoted in the attendances thread. Undoubtedly Town have lost a number of fans, with price and negative/losing football to blame, however to go from 15,000 in the 3rd to 11,000 in the 2nd simply CONFIRMS that price is at the heart of it. Walsall, Hartlepool, Yeovil etc we only ever expected a few hundred away fans, Wolves, Bolton, QPR you would expect 2 or 3 thousand, if we're lucky they are bringing half that. IMO the reason being most away teams see us in the same way we see the likes of Walsall or Hartlepool, " a shitty, little tinpot club " and no way I'm spending £30 to go to that "shithole" - take Hartlepool, we always used to take a good following, however last time, in the middle of our 500 game unbeaten run, Pools made it £25 for away fans and we took about 5 or 6 hundred. It's a trend that still continues, how many will we take to Ipswich next week, 3 or 4 hundred ? If we had 20 points instead of 10 that would probably double at the same ticket price but it would also do the same at £20 instead of £30+ (for the record I WON'T be going, because of the ticket price, I went the first season back, Vaughns missed pen and all that but that year I decided enough is enough and for the first time in 40 years I stopped going to away games because of the cost, I've now gone from 25+ away games a season ( league, cups & friendlies ) to around 5 - at first I found it very difficult, it was like an addict going cold turkey, now I'm out of the habit I don't miss it. I'm still a season ticket holder, I'm in the B&W and I go to Canalside every home game but if longstanding fans like me are being lost then "football" needs to do something before it's too late. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 9:41:09 GMT 1
I like him too, time we had a Nigel appreciation society. Get the flags made I can even hear the Italian job themed song You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!! ......Nigel. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 9:47:09 GMT 1
It just isn't this regime though is it.....this board is just following on from previous boards in my opinion.....from 1908-to the late 1960,s I would say Huddersfield Town was a stable football club finacially.....then in 1972 til now its all gone so wrong.....we have never really come back from the late 60,s....its been a nightmare ever since we got relegated to the 2nd tier in 1972.....so like I say its not just this regime that's got it wrong .....the last 40 odd years as been a rollercoaster ride......UTT...... Isn't it just that as fans we didn't tend to know the financial state of the club? In the 80s and 90s I had no idea, and even less care, as to the financial state of Hudds Town. There was this team, and I turned up and supported it. And we were mostly pretty shitty, but I didn't "expect" us to splash out £100k or sign players I'd heard of from higher up the League system. Beyond the players and the manager I probably had no idea of any other employees or board members and what their influence was. The Rubery takeover changed all that. That's the moment when Town became a "modern club" like all the others, and with the popularisation of the internet (I had dialup from about 1990 I think) and the ability for hundreds of fans to have a voice and discuss things every day of the week (instead of Saturday and read the Examiner on Monday)...there became a new level of awareness. I don't really like it, although it's just the way it is nowadays. I can't really remember what point I was answering! (Which didn't matter when we just rambled post game in the Shere Punjab and didnt write our thoughts down!!). |
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Post by detox on Oct 8, 2015 9:53:06 GMT 1
3k over 3 years? Jesus H Christ I hadn't realised it was that bad. Has somebody got our attendance stats over the last 3 seasons? Just referring to what detox posted on the attendances thread: I've kept records of gates since we got promoted - the figures I quoted were Town fans only, not the away fans. the figures for home fans are 2011/12 13,196 (league one) 2012/13 13,348 2013/14 12,634 2014/15 12,102 2015/16 10,166 (only 5 games) since promotion we have lost 3,182 Town fans per home game.. during this period (2012/13 to now) away fans have also reduced, by 747 per game..that's in addition to the above figures |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 9:54:14 GMT 1
Supped three large coffees when he interviewed me a few years ago for a role at Town did Clibbens, about the only memorable thing from it other than the view onto the pitch !
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Post by detox on Oct 8, 2015 10:07:54 GMT 1
Supped three large coffees when he interviewed me a few years ago for a role at Town did Clibbens, about the only memorable thing from it other than the view onto the pitch ! you didn't get the job then ? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 10:15:46 GMT 1
I like him too, time we had a Nigel appreciation society. Get the flags made I can even hear the Italian job themed song  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 10:17:53 GMT 1
Just referring to what detox posted on the attendances thread: I've kept records of gates since we got promoted - the figures I quoted were Town fans only, not the away fans. the figures for home fans are 2011/12 13,196 (league one) 2012/13 13,348 2013/14 12,634 2014/15 12,102 2015/16 10,166 (only 5 games) since promotion we have lost 3,182 Town fans per home game.. during this period (2012/13 to now) away fans have also reduced, by 747 per game..that's in addition to the above figures Interesting figures. HOWEVER...isn't this just natural fall off from the high point of attracting unusually high number of season ticket holders off the back of the Centenary £100 offer?? What did the numbers look like in the few years before that? |
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Post by detox on Oct 8, 2015 10:32:09 GMT 1
I've kept records of gates since we got promoted - the figures I quoted were Town fans only, not the away fans. the figures for home fans are 2011/12 13,196 (league one) 2012/13 13,348 2013/14 12,634 2014/15 12,102 2015/16 10,166 (only 5 games) since promotion we have lost 3,182 Town fans per home game.. during this period (2012/13 to now) away fans have also reduced, by 747 per game..that's in addition to the above figures Interesting figures. HOWEVER...isn't this just natural fall off from the high point of attracting unusually high number of season ticket holders off the back of the Centenary £100 offer?? What did the numbers look like in the few years before that? Wasn't that in 2008 ? It's some while prior to the Dean Hoyle era if so...I can have a delve but the comparison between a mediocre league one side and now might not be relevant, plus I can't always get the numbers of away fans ...another factor is we changed from 'attendance' to 'gate' a few years ago so not like for like comparisons... |
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Post by showaddywaddywaddy on Oct 8, 2015 10:39:20 GMT 1
I cant afford to go and watch Town regularly with my kids. I wouldnt be able to afford it if we were 10 points clear at the top of the league or if we are in a relegation place. It's economics. I'd love to go more often than the 5 or 6 matches a season I currently get to.. but it's economics. Living is expensive for ordinary people earning a normal wage and sadly I have to make choices. Call it disloyal, whatever you want. I choose to not get burdened with credit card debt and a family holiday every summer is more important to me than going to the matches. Am i a former season ticket holder gone forever? Hope not but football will collectively have to alter it's structure for me to be able to go and be able to watch players who earn more in a fortnight than I do in a year.
I read with amazement how owners and executives hike prices up with the promise of signings to make a bigger effort to get up the table (ie Sheff Wed) surely a supporter earns the same money and has the same disposable income regardless of who they have playing for them on a Saturday afternoon. The Wayne Rooney documentary the other night was aiming to confirm that football was still a working class game, who are they trying to kid? Wake up football before it's too late..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 10:44:08 GMT 1
Just referring to what detox posted on the attendances thread: I've kept records of gates since we got promoted - the figures I quoted were Town fans only, not the away fans. the figures for home fans are 2011/12 13,196 (league one) 2012/13 13,348 2013/14 12,634 2014/15 12,102 2015/16 10,166 (only 5 games) since promotion we have lost 3,182 Town fans per home game.. during this period (2012/13 to now) away fans have also reduced, by 747 per game..that's in addition to the above figures Pricing still inelastic? Christ. |
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Get the flags made 
