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Post by davidpgowinghtafc on Feb 4, 2016 1:45:43 GMT 1
Looking purely at results Town has not progressed this season v last season.
This: Played 29-32 points, goal difference -3 7 points off drop zone.
Last: Played 29-37 points, goal difference -9 8 points off drop zone.
39 goals for in both seasons.
Teams above Town (at the same date) beaten by Town
Last: Wolves, Forest, Brentford, Watford
This: Birmingham, Preston.
Defensive frailties are still around and lack of goals scored is still around.
So it seems to me that the only area of progress is the style of football played and I do not think anyone would argue against that.
The question then remains (IMO) "Can Town show actual league position and points progress by the end of the season?"
I still believe that Town will finish higher than last season's 16th (55 points)which means that the team needs more than 23 points from the last 18 games.
Comments please.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 4, 2016 3:25:28 GMT 1
we look better having a bit of a struggle with it again..we do look like we can win games which is a step up, albeit we dont win them.. its a tough progress to take at times but its there..
the ball watching when defending is still very hard to watch..I dont mind the missing chances so much, at least we make em to miss..
still 3 players short..recurring theme..
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Post by keithAM11532 on Feb 4, 2016 3:53:58 GMT 1
If you want to make an omelette you have to break a few eggs - or, to gain some forward ground you often have to take a few steps back.The new manager is introducing a new dawn of Town football. People are optimistic. slow steady and defensive was one way, fast attacking high energy is another. Finishing one or two places higher this season than last - is that progress. statistically you could argue that it is. resurrecting the feel good factor and providing a better platform from which to attack next season -that is better progress IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 6:20:52 GMT 1
Much as we all might like to, the financial side cannot be ignored when looking for progress. An optimistic view of the finances would suggest we have accumulated, what is for us, a large transfer kitty in pretty much maintaining our league position. Those with glasses half empty must still surely recognise that cost-wise we are progressing towards a more sustainable model.
If it were me (my glass does not runneth over, but I'm seeing the contents) the tough call becomes when we release these funds to kick on. The club has decided this is not the time, or there was just no value for money available. I'm disappointed as I think if we spend a decent wedge on good prospects when they do eventually move on our manager will have improved their value. Still, if no-one was available, what can you do but wait.
I also believe the club has started to recognise and address the pricing errors which could have threatened future attendances, whilst not progress it is good to see the club openly accepting and quickly resolving its self generated problems.
The football itself is much easier, although at times more frustrating to watch. I believe we will drop a few points through this style of play with our current defensive line up. Not all the jigsaw pieces are in play yet to accommodate our style and until Wagner is able to bring in some more quality to our back line we will struggle to contain some of the better strikers, which of course mostly play for the teams at the top of the league.
I see progress, more importantly I can now see where the end game of a really competitive side could be. I couldn't see that last year.
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Post by morleyterrier on Feb 4, 2016 7:51:12 GMT 1
Good post by the OP.
Points is one thing and I of course am of the view we must stay in this division.
My view on progress is though more than than just solely stats.
I like Wagner and his interviews. His frank, honest assessments and not an excuse in sight.
I am also really enjoying the attacking football and enjoying going as much as I have since probably Clark's first season. The mere fact I am actually going again is also progress.
The main think though is moments of excitement in every match not dull dreary 'nothingness' and having belief and hope that something special may just be round the corner? (maybe not!).
Having a fresh and new approach to football, something different is proving to be significant progress in my opinion.
Long Live Wagner and what he is trying to achieve as trust me, the alternative will be grim.
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Post by Gold Coast Terrier on Feb 4, 2016 8:17:39 GMT 1
Problem is measuring performance of managers like this just leads to short term results, and a few extra achievements on a managers CV.
It looks like Wagner's objectives are more in line with others within the club. He'll be held partly responsible for his part to play in integration of youth, net transfer profit and over a longer period even attendances. He also seems to be shouldering more responsibility for the pacifying of fans to which Deano's been picking up the slack for a few years.
In my opinion Powell was an all out results driven manager, with little regard for the long term sustainability of HTAFC. It was always going to come to a head when the likes of Bunn, Clibbens and maybe even Jarvis start pointing the finger his way as a contributing factor for them not meeting their objectives - purely me speculating but you'd have thought they'd have a case...
We needed everyone working towards the same goals.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Feb 4, 2016 9:05:14 GMT 1
1. Our defence is weaker
2. Striking options poorer
3. Playing good football at times.
Cant really see progress so far.
Lets see this summer
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ligament
Darren Bullock Terrier
[M0:10] those were the days........
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Post by ligament on Feb 4, 2016 10:06:03 GMT 1
Looking purely at results Town has not progressed this season v last season. This: Played 29-32 points, goal difference -3 7 points off drop zone. Last: Played 29-37 points, goal difference -9 8 points off drop zone. 39 goals for in both seasons. Teams above Town (at the same date) beaten by Town Last: Wolves, Forest, Brentford, Watford This: Birmingham, Preston. Defensive frailties are still around and lack of goals scored is still around. So it seems to me that the only area of progress is the style of football played and I do not think anyone would argue against that. The question then remains (IMO) "Can Town show actual league position and points progress by the end of the season?" I still believe that Town will finish higher than last season's 16th (55 points)which means that the team needs more than 23 points from the last 18 games. Comments please. Dont go with the lack of goals only around 6 teams scored more than us. UTT |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Feb 4, 2016 10:10:45 GMT 1
1. Our defence is weaker 2. Striking options poorer 3. Playing good football at times. Cant really see progress so far. Lets see this summer Have you not been to.any of the last ten matches ? How a town fan can't see progress from this time last year is beyond me |
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Post by dalton knee-jerk on Feb 4, 2016 10:14:50 GMT 1
1. Our defence is weaker 2. Striking options poorer 3. Playing good football at times. Cant really see progress so far. Lets see this summer Have you not been to.any of the last ten matches ? How a town fan can't see progress from this time last year is beyond me It's ever since those threads merged, he's worse than before  |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Feb 4, 2016 10:24:59 GMT 1
Have you not been to.any of the last ten matches ? How a town fan can't see progress from this time last year is beyond me It's ever since those threads merged, he's worse than before All that effort for nothing |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 10:28:28 GMT 1
Our season didn't start till Wagner took the team for the first time. Since he took over we've flattered to deceive with inferior players and superior coaching methods. We've sold our better players over the last couple of season and not replaced them. It'll tell if we start picking up a few injuries as we now have no depth to the first team squad.
Are we better? yes and no.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Feb 4, 2016 10:42:02 GMT 1
Common theme all through Powell's tenure was that if only we played attacking, full throttle football and tried to win games.
We have seen mega progress on that score.
We have a gem in DW.
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Post by wtd on Feb 4, 2016 10:47:25 GMT 1
1. Our defence is weaker 2. Striking options poorer 3. Playing good football at times. Cant really see progress so far. Lets see this summer That's an extremely blinkered take on it, Nick. Try this one from morleyterrier who not very long ago would have agreed with you... Good post by the OP. Points is one thing and I of course am of the view we must stay in this division. My view on progress is though more than than just solely stats. I like Wagner and his interviews. His frank, honest assessments and not an excuse in sight. I am also really enjoying the attacking football and enjoying going as much as I have since probably Clark's first season. The mere fact I am actually going again is also progress. The main think though is moments of excitement in every match not dull dreary 'nothingness' and having belief and hope that something special may just be round the corner? (maybe not!). Having a fresh and new approach to football, something different is proving to be significant progress in my opinion. Long Live Wagner and what he is trying to achieve as trust me, the alternative will be grim. |
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Post by 3Pipe on Feb 4, 2016 10:52:40 GMT 1
Looking purely at results Town has not progressed this season v last season. Have! Come on David, we've been here before. |
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Post by Henry Mcgee on Feb 4, 2016 10:53:32 GMT 1
It's probably better to look at the difference in the last 2 managers, rather than 2 seasons where there has been a change of manager part way through. On league stats alone ...
Powell 1.18 points per game
Wagner 1.42 points per game
Powell 1.21 goals for per game
Wagner 1.83 goals for per game
Early days (12 league games for Wagner vs 56 for Powell) but those stats certainly support the view that progress is now being made and games are more entertaining.
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Feb 4, 2016 11:09:58 GMT 1
Looking purely at results Town has not progressed this season v last season. This: Played 29-32 points, goal difference -3 7 points off drop zone. Last: Played 29-37 points, goal difference -9 8 points off drop zone. 39 goals for in both seasons. Teams above Town (at the same date) beaten by Town Last: Wolves, Forest, Brentford, Watford This: Birmingham, Preston. Defensive frailties are still around and lack of goals scored is still around. So it seems to me that the only area of progress is the style of football played and I do not think anyone would argue against that. The question then remains (IMO) "Can Town show actual league position and points progress by the end of the season?" I still believe that Town will finish higher than last season's 16th (55 points)which means that the team needs more than 23 points from the last 18 games. Comments please. Dont go with the lack of goals only around 6 teams scored more than us. UTT Only 5 teams have conceded more (a slight improvement on last season) and that's what's holding us back in my opinion. The standard of football has improved and we now try to win games but we are being held back by our failure to strengthen the defence. |
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Feb 4, 2016 11:30:26 GMT 1
Dont go with the lack of goals only around 6 teams scored more than us. UTT Only 5 teams have conceded more (a slight improvement on last season) and that's what's holding us back in my opinion. The standard of football has improved and we now try to win games but we are being held back by our failure to strengthen the defence. Spot on . We are scoring plenty but shipping far too many. If Chilwell comes back that will make a big difference. DW still needs to do some work on defensive organisation, especially from corners and set pieces (ours and theirs). No good learning a new "lesson" every week! |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Feb 4, 2016 11:37:16 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks.
Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back.
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Post by detox on Feb 4, 2016 11:52:46 GMT 1
2-3 years of mind numbingly boring dross had driven 000's of fans away. The model Dean had in place meant successive managers all ended up with the same game plan to just stay in this league, at all costs. The loss of fans/revenues triggered a change in mindset from Dean and this is a lot better than what went before. However we still have the same issues as in the previous 3 years, lack of quality in key areas. Wagner will already know by now what is needed to take us to the next level. I'm tolerant of our defeats now because I can see where we are going, what we are trying to achieve and I can forgive players who are actually putting a shift in even though they might lack certain abilities. This has been an issue for most Town fans for a while, the appearance that players are strolling through games.
We know we're a small club in this division, we're a small town. So we needed new ideas. We will continue to drop points while ever we keep having to play lads with lesser ability but at least it's worth watching now. Sometimes the stats don't tell the real story...but in Wagner we at last have a manager who the fans have belief in. Crucially it seems Dean also has some belief in him, and will trust him to spend heavily during the summer and to finally resolve the weaknesses we have had for the past few years.
Our time will be next season provided we get the players we are after, and Wagner has had a full pre season to get his squad fit and tuned in. At the moment we are chugging along ok but I can't wait for next season to come along.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Feb 4, 2016 12:24:49 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks. Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back. Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately |
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Post by benhomly on Feb 4, 2016 12:33:22 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks. Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back. Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately Have to agree with this and once again Sky are at the forefront when it comes to ridiculous stats. It's mind numbingly boring when they're analysing or comparing players - so and so has completed 12,456 passes this season with a success rate of 64%; he's headed the ball 2,478 times, committed 231 fouls etc etc. Jesus it's tedious. |
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Post by lochnessterrier on Feb 4, 2016 12:35:27 GMT 1
Thanks for the info David, excellent research as usual.
Difficult to measure progress. I think it will be a struggle to match last season's 55 points, but I think the safety target will be much lower this time. Bolton and Charlton will have to play really well to reach 50 and they show little signs of doing so. We are also comfortably better than Rotherham, Bristol and MK so I don't think we are in any danger.
The main progress for me is that the club and the team both seem to be run much better now. Providing we can add that little bit of quality in the summer I think we'll fare much better next season.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Feb 4, 2016 12:46:25 GMT 1
Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately Have to agree with this and once again Sky are at the forefront when it comes to ridiculous stats. It's mind numbingly boring when they're analysing or comparing players - so and so has completed 12,456 passes this season with a success rate of 64%; he's headed the ball 2,478 times, committed 231 fouls etc etc. Jesus it's tedious. I once wondered if me and you would ever agree on anything ... We are almost brothers these days |
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Post by benhomly on Feb 4, 2016 12:49:49 GMT 1
Have to agree with this and once again Sky are at the forefront when it comes to ridiculous stats. It's mind numbingly boring when they're analysing or comparing players - so and so has completed 12,456 passes this season with a success rate of 64%; he's headed the ball 2,478 times, committed 231 fouls etc etc. Jesus it's tedious. I once wondered if me and you would ever agree on anything ... We are almost brothers these days Steady on Ted. When they have the mass DATM party mentioned the other day on a previous thread we'll just have to make sure we go to the same one and not the splitters one |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Feb 4, 2016 12:59:45 GMT 1
I've still not received my invite for the downwiththemac shindig ..must have got lost in the post
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Feb 4, 2016 13:18:01 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks. Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back. Powell was better away from home. |
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Feb 4, 2016 13:19:12 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks. Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back. Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately Bet DW likes a spreadsheet - but sensibly. |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Feb 4, 2016 13:27:54 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks. Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back. Powell was better away from home. We didn't win too many of them though did we? |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Feb 4, 2016 13:30:10 GMT 1
Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately Bet DW likes a spreadsheet - but sensibly. He actually said in one of his interviews that he was surprised at the level of analysis over here, specifically on the away team, so I'd imagine that he doesn't rely on Prozone in a way that a lot of modern coaches appear to. |
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