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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jun 25, 2018 8:17:05 GMT 1
The reality is I think England are good enough to win it and as I said in my previous post. This tournament is wide open. There is no stand-out Team, Germany included. It isn't England's fault but the reality is they only ever get to play competitive matches at the rate of about 4 every two years. Those being the one decent side in the Group stages of a Tournament (Euros and World Cup) so that's two matches. The other two being the Quarter finals (usually) in each of the same Tournaments which is the other two. It just isn't enough to gain the know-how and experience / knowledge to win big games against quality International opposition. The ridiculously easy qualifying groups England get for every tournament (and breeze though) is not helping England one bit, They don't play anybody then find it tough when eventually they do. It will never happen because of seeding (and let's face it, seeding is only in place because of money and sponsors. Seeding looking to ensure the Countries that tournaments want there, get there). But if England could get a tough qualifying group with other quality International Teams that they have to play twice each. And then come through it to qualify. They would be so much better prepared for the tough matches at knock-out stage at tournaments. Morley i agree to some extent regarding the lack of quality England play during qualification but it is the same for most teams. Belgium played Gibraltar, Cyprus, Estonia, Greece. Spain played Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Israel, Albania. Poland played Kazakhstan, Armenia, Montenegro. Germany played San Marino, Azerbaijan, Norway. It is not just us that breezes through a low standard qualification group so we are all in the same boat. Just because we coast through to a knockout, along with the other decent teams, that should not be a negative, which it always seems to be with most English fans. All we can do is beat who is in front of us and then hope we turn over one of the better teams, which we are more than capable of doing. Many people seem to have the same thinking, once we play a decent team we will get knocked out. Maybe so, but that is because most of the teams who get to the knockout stages are good teams and it is a pretty level playing field so anything can happen, doesn't mean we are crap if we get turned over by a decent team, same as it doesn't mean we are world beaters if we beat a decent team. We have a very good team that is worth, in my opinion, a quarter final place at least. That is good enough for me. I don't expect to win anything nor do i expect us to roll over easily. I have enjoyed watching us this time, it is a shame others can't just enjoy it for what it is. All well and good....but you know that when we face a team as good as us, when the balls are on the line, that's when we fail. Meet an Iceland in the last 8 and its game over. You are not going to see us outplay Spain and go out gloriously. |
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Jun 25, 2018 8:20:38 GMT 1
All well and good....but you know that when we face a team as good as us, when the balls are on the line, that's when we fail. Meet an Iceland in the last 8 and its game over. You are not going to see us outplay Spain and go out gloriously. Historically yes, we do fail when we meet a decent team but that wont last forever. Times change. In my opinion we could play Iceland 10 times and lose once. No we wouldn't outplay Spain but who would? |
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Post by Captainslapper on Jun 25, 2018 9:37:50 GMT 1
Morley i agree to some extent regarding the lack of quality England play during qualification but it is the same for most teams. Belgium played Gibraltar, Cyprus, Estonia, Greece. Spain played Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Israel, Albania. Poland played Kazakhstan, Armenia, Montenegro. Germany played San Marino, Azerbaijan, Norway. It is not just us that breezes through a low standard qualification group so we are all in the same boat. Just because we coast through to a knockout, along with the other decent teams, that should not be a negative, which it always seems to be with most English fans. All we can do is beat who is in front of us and then hope we turn over one of the better teams, which we are more than capable of doing. Many people seem to have the same thinking, once we play a decent team we will get knocked out. Maybe so, but that is because most of the teams who get to the knockout stages are good teams and it is a pretty level playing field so anything can happen, doesn't mean we are crap if we get turned over by a decent team, same as it doesn't mean we are world beaters if we beat a decent team. We have a very good team that is worth, in my opinion, a quarter final place at least. That is good enough for me. I don't expect to win anything nor do i expect us to roll over easily. I have enjoyed watching us this time, it is a shame others can't just enjoy it for what it is. All well and good....but you know that when we face a team as good as us, when the balls are on the line, that's when we fail. Meet an Iceland in the last 8 and its game over.You are not going to see us outplay Spain and go out gloriously. We go out once to a side like Iceland and that is now what always happens?? Panama are a team 'like Iceland'. Tunisia are too and we should have got 5 or 6 against them too. I haven't seen anyone in these finals who I look at and think ' well we'd definitely lose against them'. ( apart from the Poles obviously  ) Why the desperate need to be proved 'right' and see england lose? Just enjoy it and see how far we can go. Some are so desperate to slag off the england team, they slag them off when we win now!! |
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Post by trailingleg on Jun 25, 2018 11:29:01 GMT 1
Doesn't seem like a proper World Cup without the Italians. As for yesterday, I wouldn't have believed that a 6-1 win could be so boring. 20 passes, the last one into touch. Did Vardy touch the ball more than once?
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jun 25, 2018 11:32:48 GMT 1
All well and good....but you know that when we face a team as good as us, when the balls are on the line, that's when we fail. Meet an Iceland in the last 8 and its game over.You are not going to see us outplay Spain and go out gloriously. We go out once to a side like Iceland and that is now what always happens?? Panama are a team 'like Iceland'. Tunisia are too and we should have got 5 or 6 against them too. I haven't seen anyone in these finals who I look at and think ' well we'd definitely lose against them'. ( apart from the Poles obviously ) Why the desperate need to be proved 'right' and see england lose? Just enjoy it and see how far we can go. Some are so desperate to slag off the england team, they slag them off when we win now!! Panama a team like Iceland? Are you quite mad? Crewe Alexandra would beat Panama....seriously. We lost to the USA 1950...a 100/1 shot. Out. 1954 we went out to little Uruguay after drawing 4-4 with minnows Belgium. Uruguay was then a backwater of 3 million people. 1958 we went out at the hands of minnows Austria who had nothing to play for. Went home without a win as well. 62...qualified from the group just....a 0-0 draw with the mighty Bulgaria....then its Brazil and home. 1970...get out of the group with two 1-0 wins against giants Romania and Czechoslovakia...then its Germany and home. 74. Failed to qualify at the hands of giants Wales and the clown Tomaszewski. 78..failed to qualify on goal difference. 82. Two draws with Spain and Germany....home. Again we fail to beat a good team. 86. Morocco top the group yet we sneak in to the knock-out rounds. We then beat the worst team in South America by some margin...Paraguay. Meet Argentina and its home. Getting tired now...you know the rest....we NEVER succeed in big matches v good teams. |
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Jun 25, 2018 11:38:45 GMT 1
our defence looks really dodgy. I mean even Panama scored against us. That is not good.
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Jun 25, 2018 11:45:16 GMT 1
Doesn't seem like a proper World Cup without the Italians. As for yesterday, I wouldn't have believed that a 6-1 win could be so boring. 20 passes, the last one into touch. Did Vardy touch the ball more than once? Did you find the first half boring? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 11:45:51 GMT 1
Care to do a similar breakdown of Poland's success in previous tournaments? That didn't seem to matter when you thought they had a chance of winning it less than two weeks ago.
What's happened in the past is just that. The past. It has no bearing on what happens in the knockout phase 4 years later, and most certainly not what we did the best part of a century ago.
Anyway, what happens to football just being "random"? Surely if its random then we have a chance of winning the 4 games we need to lift the trophy? In fact we don't even have to win any of them.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jun 25, 2018 11:51:13 GMT 1
we do not have to 'outplay' anyone..
outscoring them will do nicely..
possession is only more important on very hot days..
we let a goal in yesterday, belgium conceded 2 and it might have been another 1/2, agreed they could have scored a couple more but its all relative..
might come down to do we have the players and the desire to take more chances from mistakes than the others? there is a considerable amount of overplaying in defence going on at this world cup..
bet the Russians dont give a shit it was only Saudi that they arseholed....not sure the belgians are that bothered about letting in 2..
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Post by Captainslapper on Jun 25, 2018 12:28:36 GMT 1
We go out once to a side like Iceland and that is now what always happens?? Panama are a team 'like Iceland'. Tunisia are too and we should have got 5 or 6 against them too. I haven't seen anyone in these finals who I look at and think ' well we'd definitely lose against them'. ( apart from the Poles obviously ) Why the desperate need to be proved 'right' and see england lose? Just enjoy it and see how far we can go. Some are so desperate to slag off the england team, they slag them off when we win now!! Panama a team like Iceland? Are you quite mad? Crewe Alexandra would beat Panama....seriously. We lost to the USA 1950...a 100/1 shot. Out. 1954 we went out to little Uruguay after drawing 4-4 with minnows Belgium. Uruguay was then a backwater of 3 million people. 1958 we went out at the hands of minnows Austria who had nothing to play for. Went home without a win as well. 62...qualified from the group just....a 0-0 draw with the mighty Bulgaria....then its Brazil and home. 1970...get out of the group with two 1-0 wins against giants Romania and Czechoslovakia...then its Germany and home. 74. Failed to qualify at the hands of giants Wales and the clown Tomaszewski. 78..failed to qualify on goal difference. 82. Two draws with Spain and Germany....home. Again we fail to beat a good team. 86. Morocco top the group yet we sneak in to the knock-out rounds. We then beat the worst team in South America by some margin...Paraguay. Meet Argentina and its home. Getting tired now...you know the rest....we NEVER succeed in big matches v good teams. Yeah yeah yeah. what a crock of shit. When we win its because the other side are shit. When we lose its because the other side are still shit, just not as shit as us. It gets so boring At least we won;t be coming up against the mighty Poles this time with their superior skill, players and attitude  Panama would beat Poland. |
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Post by pixie on Jun 25, 2018 12:33:44 GMT 1
Because we have a left back who hasn't got the ability to use his left foot. How he is an international continues to amaze me. I wouldn't want him at Town even if he was on a free. Every single time he is in a position to cross the ball he has to stop and play the ball with his right foot to someone level or behind him. It's frankly embarrassing: what is Southgate thinking? We would be a much better team using Sessegnon in that position. And don't get me going about Sterling ... Serious question, do you honestly think a right footed left back will prevent us winning the World Cup? Did you notice yesterday when Young was defending 5 yards from the corner flag? He had a couple of seconds to clear upfield with his left foot but was obviously not confident enough to do so. Instead he stopped, looked around and then passed back to Pickford who had to hurriedly do what he should have done in the first place. Players marking Young have a much easier job than they should because they know his limitations. Sterling doesn't do a quarter of the work of Lingard and never looks like scoring. He must be in the team because he scored 23 goals for City last season, probably all from inside the 6 yard box. Remember his jammy goal off his thigh against Town? Do you imagine a team with 2 passengers winning the WC? It's possible of course but very unlikely. |
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Jun 25, 2018 12:36:23 GMT 1
Serious question, do you honestly think a right footed left back will prevent us winning the World Cup? Did you notice yesterday when Young was defending 5 yards from the corner flag? He had a couple of seconds to clear upfield with his left foot but was obviously not confident enough to do so. Instead he stopped, looked around and then passed back to Pickford who had to hurriedly do what he should have done in the first place. Players marking Young have a much easier job than they should because they know his limitations. Sterling doesn't do a quarter of the work of Lingard and never looks like scoring. He must be in the team because he scored 23 goals for City last season, probably all from inside the 6 yard box. Remember his jammy goal off his thigh against Town? Do you imagine a team with 2 passengers winning the WC? It's possible of course but very unlikely. Every team has passengers. There is no team with a starting 11 that are all worldies. |
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Post by andyeastleake on Jun 25, 2018 12:45:40 GMT 1
Getting tired now...you know the rest....we NEVER succeed in big matches v good teams. Why didn't the gap in your list alert you to the fact your final statement quite simply isn't correct? ....whether you put it in capitals or increase the Font size. .....but hey why bother letting facts get in the way of your opinion. |
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Post by htfctx on Jun 25, 2018 12:49:15 GMT 1
World Cup winners don't win 3 in the group stage. Back to '78, only Brazil in 2002 got 9 points in the group stage.
The other extreme is Italy, in 1982. drew 2 of 3 in the group stage and won the thing.
That's 9 out of 10 winners, build a head of steam around the quarter finals and hit a vein of form.
England just had a win that is a record in the WC finals. That is significant, are they going to have a better or worse result next game?
It is far better to build "belief" in the squad by getting some warriors blooded in the competition. Keep the spine of the team and rotate.
I don't think you build belief by playing Ashley Young as a left wing back and then a right wing back. Rotate the squad, don't tell the squad 'you are so shit, I am making convoluted substitutions to avoid bringing you in'.
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Post by upthetown on Jun 25, 2018 12:51:41 GMT 1
Did you notice yesterday when Young was defending 5 yards from the corner flag? He had a couple of seconds to clear upfield with his left foot but was obviously not confident enough to do so. Instead he stopped, looked around and then passed back to Pickford who had to hurriedly do what he should have done in the first place. Players marking Young have a much easier job than they should because they know his limitations. Sterling doesn't do a quarter of the work of Lingard and never looks like scoring. He must be in the team because he scored 23 goals for City last season, probably all from inside the 6 yard box. Remember his jammy goal off his thigh against Town? Do you imagine a team with 2 passengers winning the WC? It's possible of course but very unlikely. Every team has passengers. There is no team with a starting 11 that are all worldies. Town |
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jun 25, 2018 13:12:50 GMT 1
Panama a team like Iceland? Are you quite mad? Crewe Alexandra would beat Panama....seriously. We lost to the USA 1950...a 100/1 shot. Out. 1954 we went out to little Uruguay after drawing 4-4 with minnows Belgium. Uruguay was then a backwater of 3 million people. 1958 we went out at the hands of minnows Austria who had nothing to play for. Went home without a win as well. 62...qualified from the group just....a 0-0 draw with the mighty Bulgaria....then its Brazil and home. 1970...get out of the group with two 1-0 wins against giants Romania and Czechoslovakia...then its Germany and home. 74. Failed to qualify at the hands of giants Wales and the clown Tomaszewski. 78..failed to qualify on goal difference. 82. Two draws with Spain and Germany....home. Again we fail to beat a good team. 86. Morocco top the group yet we sneak in to the knock-out rounds. We then beat the worst team in South America by some margin...Paraguay. Meet Argentina and its home. Getting tired now...you know the rest....we NEVER succeed in big matches v good teams. Yeah yeah yeah. what a crock of shit. When we win its because the other side are shit. When we lose its because the other side are still shit, just not as shit as us. It gets so boring At least we won;t be coming up against the mighty Poles this time with their superior skill, players and attitude Panama would beat Poland. Panama would not beat Poland in 20 attempts. us.soccerway.com/teams/poland/poland/1677/ |
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jun 25, 2018 13:13:41 GMT 1
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jun 25, 2018 13:15:39 GMT 1
Getting tired now...you know the rest....we NEVER succeed in big matches v good teams. Why didn't the gap in your list alert you to the fact your final statement quite simply isn't correct? ....whether you put it in capitals or increase the Font size. .....but hey why bother letting facts get in the way of your opinion. Name 3 competitive big games against big teams won in your lifetime excluding Euro 96. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Jun 25, 2018 13:31:05 GMT 1
Off the top of my head
France in 82 World cup. One you conveniently ignored. They lost in the semis that year, screwed by shocking reffing.
Argentina in 02.
Belgium in 90
No one is saying our record is good against the big teams in tournament finals.
Its not.
But ignoring any wins we have had and dismissing any opponent we beat to try and make some sort of point is really lame.
Poland are shit despite your big build up. they stunk their group out. Wouldn;t surprise me at all if Panama beat them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 13:34:10 GMT 1
We go out once to a side like Iceland and that is now what always happens?? Panama are a team 'like Iceland'. Tunisia are too and we should have got 5 or 6 against them too. I haven't seen anyone in these finals who I look at and think ' well we'd definitely lose against them'. ( apart from the Poles obviously ) Why the desperate need to be proved 'right' and see england lose? Just enjoy it and see how far we can go. Some are so desperate to slag off the england team, they slag them off when we win now!! Panama a team like Iceland? Are you quite mad? Crewe Alexandra would beat Panama....seriously. We lost to the USA 1950...a 100/1 shot. Out. 1954 we went out to little Uruguay after drawing 4-4 with minnows Belgium. Uruguay was then a backwater of 3 million people. 1958 we went out at the hands of minnows Austria who had nothing to play for. Went home without a win as well. 62...qualified from the group just....a 0-0 draw with the mighty Bulgaria....then its Brazil and home. 1970...get out of the group with two 1-0 wins against giants Romania and Czechoslovakia...then its Germany and home. 74. Failed to qualify at the hands of giants Wales and the clown Tomaszewski. 78..failed to qualify on goal difference. 82. Two draws with Spain and Germany....home. Again we fail to beat a good team. 86. Morocco top the group yet we sneak in to the knock-out rounds. We then beat the worst team in South America by some margin...Paraguay. Meet Argentina and its home. Getting tired now...you know the rest....we NEVER succeed in big matches v good teams. Uruguay still has a population of 3 million, less than say Republic of Ireland. They are big over achievers in international football terms. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 13:37:24 GMT 1
Either way its irrelevant, its about the here and now. What history did Greece have when they won the Euros?
Also little Urguguay who knocked us out in 1954 won the first world cup only 24 years prior.
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Post by Captainslapper on Jun 25, 2018 14:06:22 GMT 1
Either way its irrelevant, its about the here and now. What history did Greece have when they won the Euros? Also little Urguguay who knocked us out in 1954 won the first world cup only 24 years prior. True. We have a very young side and a new manager. They shouldn;t really be effected by previous failures ( never mind from 1954 ) Its very much about the here and now, and here and now england have looked pretty good and made very satisfactory start to the tournament. Some just can't stand that. |
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Post by Torquayterrier on Jun 25, 2018 14:14:52 GMT 1
Indeed time moves on, even the likes of Lineker and Shearer are old timers to the actual England players themselves. I think Southgate has got the tone pretty much spot on so far, immediately picking up on things he wasnt happy with against Panama before giving praise where it was due.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 19:23:31 GMT 1
Either way its irrelevant, its about the here and now. What history did Greece have when they won the Euros? Also little Urguguay who knocked us out in 1954 won the first world cup only 24 years prior. True. We have a very young side and a new manager. They shouldn;t really be effected by previous failures ( never mind from 1954 ) Its very much about the here and now, and here and now england have looked pretty good and made very satisfactory start to the tournament. Some just can't stand that. I was listening to talksport pre tournament and they were asking each of the current squad what their first World Cup memory was. Most of them answered Frank Lampards goal that never was against Germany. Most of the squad can only remember 2 world cups, so I'm sure they're not worried about 1954 |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Jun 25, 2018 20:06:00 GMT 1
Either way its irrelevant, its about the here and now. What history did Greece have when they won the Euros? Also little Urguguay who knocked us out in 1954 won the first world cup only 24 years prior. Uruguay were defending world champions in 1954 after beating Brazil at the Maracana. Some backwater. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 21:01:34 GMT 1
Either way its irrelevant, its about the here and now. What history did Greece have when they won the Euros? Also little Urguguay who knocked us out in 1954 won the first world cup only 24 years prior. Uruguay were defending world champions in 1954 after beating Brazil at the Maracana. Some backwater. Brilliant 😂 didn't realise they'd won it twice |
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Post by trailingleg on Jun 27, 2018 1:28:20 GMT 1
Doesn't seem like a proper World Cup without the Italians. As for yesterday, I wouldn't have believed that a 6-1 win could be so boring. 20 passes, the last one into touch. Did Vardy touch the ball more than once? Did you find the first half boring? It was good to watch the goals go in against League 2 standard opposition, and I thought the team did well to keep their cool against the intimidating tactics. I realise the heat was a factor too, but what I found disappointing was, in the second half, a tactic that at first seemed a good idea - draw the opposition out and pass the ball over or through them to the strikers. However, Panama were only drawn to just beyond the halfway line after which they retreated back into their own half. England made no attempt to pass the ball through or over them when they were farthest out, nor did they use the wings. They simply repeated the exercise ad infinitum, drawing them out and watching them retreat. I'm sorry that I found it boring and frustrating. The last thing I wanted was to be as exasperated as I was. |
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Post by golcarexile on Jun 27, 2018 4:29:05 GMT 1
The draw is looking so lopsided, with only Spain of the ‘big’ teams in one side, and potentially France, Portugal, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, plus Uruguay in the other. Whatever anyone says, that must be some incentive for England to take it easy against Belgium. Then again, they’re probably thinking the same thing. What seemed ludicrous, that neither team might actually try to win, or may even stoop to picking up deliberate yellow cards in order to finish second, could become a reality. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
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Post by philincalifornia on Jun 27, 2018 4:33:14 GMT 1
The draw is looking so lopsided, with only Spain of the ‘big’ teams in one side, and potentially France, Portugal, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, plus Uruguay in the other. Whatever anyone says, that must be some incentive for England to take it easy against Belgium. Then again, they’re probably thinking the same thing. What seemed ludicrous, that neither team might actually try to win, or may even stoop to picking up deliberate yellow cards in order to finish second, could become a reality. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out. If the crazy scenario happens, I nominate Phil Jones to come on and pick up two yellow cards in the last 5 minutes  |
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Post by htfctx on Jun 27, 2018 4:39:13 GMT 1
The draw is looking so lopsided, with only Spain of the ‘big’ teams in one side, and potentially France, Portugal, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, plus Uruguay in the other. Whatever anyone says, that must be some incentive for England to take it easy against Belgium. Then again, they’re probably thinking the same thing. What seemed ludicrous, that neither team might actually try to win, or may even stoop to picking up deliberate yellow cards in order to finish second, could become a reality. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Yep, Wednesday night things will become pretty clear. |
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