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Post by haskins on May 21, 2024 14:23:39 GMT 1
So the limiting factor is the up to 75% of Relevant Turnover for Player Expenditure. It therefore doesn’t matter how many billions an owner can give as a non-refundable sum, it still can’t be spent on players. The loophole could be Sponsorship by Kevin through an entity. Overall though apart from boosting the non-playing side of things as you point out and investing in infrastructure a wealthy owner is not necessarily going to advantage a club to any great extent. Wonder how City would get on in League One. Donations / cash injections / equity injections would fall under "Football Fortune Income", 100% of which could theoretically go towards the playing budget, on top of the 75% of "Relevant Turnover". Think you’re right it’s the ‘sum of’ - so big cash injection (gift) would do nicely. |
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Post by rothwellterrier on May 30, 2024 15:58:13 GMT 1
The purchase cost of 22/23 squad, 4th lowest in the championship. Beer football on home brew prices  |
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Post by Mastercracker on May 30, 2024 16:05:58 GMT 1
The purchase cost of 22/23 squad, 4th lowest in the championship. Beer football on home brew prices Amazing really, having been just 3 years out of the premier league at that point. |
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on May 30, 2024 16:20:49 GMT 1
The purchase cost of 22/23 squad, 4th lowest in the championship. Beer football on home brew prices Amazing really, having been just 3 years out of the premier league at that point. And lightyears away from DH, showing any desire to get back there. |
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Post by Mastercracker on May 30, 2024 16:21:34 GMT 1
Amazing really, having been just 3 years out of the premier league at that point. And lightyears away DH showing any desire to get back there. "Moment in time" |
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Post by townarentbest on May 30, 2024 17:14:19 GMT 1
The purchase cost of 22/23 squad, 4th lowest in the championship. Beer football on home brew prices I'm assuming those three clubs went straight back up with that incredible advantage? |
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Post by Terriersmad on May 31, 2024 10:47:42 GMT 1
Amazing really, having been just 3 years out of the premier league at that point. And lightyears away from DH, showing any desire to get back there. At this point he didn't own the club (25% stake) and hadn't for the previous three years. He was propping up the wage bill because the actual owner had gone bust and wasn't putting any money in. DH was also actively trying to sell the club, so of course he wasn't spending big money on the playing squad. He wanted out. He tried to get out. He didn't manage it! Underinvestment for that level? Absolutely. But the biggest reason for that was a skint owner from 2019 running aground financially in 2021, not the bloke bailing him out for the greater part of two years. |
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Post by detox on May 31, 2024 10:53:25 GMT 1
And lightyears away from DH, showing any desire to get back there. At this point he didn't own the club (25% stake) and hadn't for the previous three years. He was propping up the wage bill because the actual owner had gone bust and wasn't putting any money in. DH was also actively trying to sell the club, so of course he wasn't spending big money on the playing squad. He wanted out. He tried to get out. He didn't manage it! Underinvestment for that level? Absolutely. But the biggest reason for that was a skint owner from 2019 running aground financially in 2021, not the bloke bailing him out for the greater part of two years. DH thought PH was a suitable new owner, due diligence and all that? Big mistake. He was never suitable and everyone knew the threat to his business with the claims ruling on the horizon. No this was a deal for DH only, not potless Phil. It failed. |
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Post by Terriersmad on May 31, 2024 11:08:09 GMT 1
At this point he didn't own the club (25% stake) and hadn't for the previous three years. He was propping up the wage bill because the actual owner had gone bust and wasn't putting any money in. DH was also actively trying to sell the club, so of course he wasn't spending big money on the playing squad. He wanted out. He tried to get out. He didn't manage it! Underinvestment for that level? Absolutely. But the biggest reason for that was a skint owner from 2019 running aground financially in 2021, not the bloke bailing him out for the greater part of two years. DH thought PH was a suitable new owner, due diligence and all that? Big mistake. He was never suitable and everyone knew the threat to his business with the claims ruling on the horizon. No this was a deal for DH only, not potless Phil. It failed. I get bored of this. DH is not responsible for the actions of PH, nor his finances. If I sell my car to someone and they crash it doing donuts on the ring road, it isn't my responsibility. I'm not saying Hoyle didn't make mistakes. I'm saying that it's time for Hodgkinson to shoulder the bulk of the blame. |
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Post by benhomly on May 31, 2024 11:13:07 GMT 1
DH thought PH was a suitable new owner, due diligence and all that? Big mistake. He was never suitable and everyone knew the threat to his business with the claims ruling on the horizon. No this was a deal for DH only, not potless Phil. It failed. I get bored of this. DH is not responsible for the actions of PH, nor his finances. If I sell my car to someone and they crash it doing donuts on the ring road, it isn't my responsibility. I'm not saying Hoyle didn't make mistakes. I'm saying that it's time for Hodgkinson to shoulder the bulk of the blame. When Hoyle took over one of the things he made clear was that when it came time to sell the club he would make sure that the club was left in good hands. He clearly didn't do that and couldn't wait to bail out. He should shoulder just as much blame as PH if not more. |
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Post by Rigodon on May 31, 2024 13:56:35 GMT 1
DH thought PH was a suitable new owner, due diligence and all that? Big mistake. He was never suitable and everyone knew the threat to his business with the claims ruling on the horizon. No this was a deal for DH only, not potless Phil. It failed. I get bored of this. DH is not responsible for the actions of PH, nor his finances. If I sell my car to someone and they crash it doing donuts on the ring road, it isn't my responsibility. I'm not saying Hoyle didn't make mistakes. I'm saying that it's time for Hodgkinson to shoulder the bulk of the blame. Totally. Due diligence is also done by the Fit and Proper person's test.. But it seems that even with the lumpiness of that, he passed through it and still managed to leave a debt to HMRC in the aftermath... www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/investigators-probe-collapse-of-pure-business-group/5114349.article Is that DH's fault too??! |
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Post by detox on May 31, 2024 17:05:06 GMT 1
I get bored of this. DH is not responsible for the actions of PH, nor his finances. If I sell my car to someone and they crash it doing donuts on the ring road, it isn't my responsibility. I'm not saying Hoyle didn't make mistakes. I'm saying that it's time for Hodgkinson to shoulder the bulk of the blame. Totally. Due diligence is also done by the Fit and Proper person's test.. But it seems that even with the lumpiness of that, he passed through it and still managed to leave a debt to HMRC in the aftermath... www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/investigators-probe-collapse-of-pure-business-group/5114349.article Is that DH's fault too??! Bored now. |
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Post by Tim Nice But Dim on May 31, 2024 17:42:44 GMT 1
There is roads works everywhere, i know lets blame Dean Hoyle.
There is only one Dean Hoyle the man who took us to the Premier League, he admitted mistakes were made and were not the only club to make them and won't be the last. Without DH it is possible that we would be playing the likes of Boreham Wood 12 years a go and Solihull then the moaners would have something to moan about.
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on May 31, 2024 18:11:11 GMT 1
There is roads works everywhere, i know lets blame Dean Hoyle. There is only one Dean Hoyle the man who took us to the Premier League, he admitted mistakes were made and were not the only club to make them and won't be the last. Without DH it is possible that we would be playing the likes of Boreham Wood 12 years a go and Solihull then the moaners would have something to moan about. But they'd be happy to be proven right  |
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on May 31, 2024 18:19:32 GMT 1
There is roads works everywhere, i know lets blame Dean Hoyle. There is only one Dean Hoyle the man who took us to the Premier League, he admitted mistakes were made and were not the only club to make them and won't be the last. Without DH it is possible that we would be playing the likes of Boreham Wood 12 years a go and Solihull then the moaners would have something to moan about. But they'd be happy to be proven right I thought it was all Warnock's fault  |
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Jun 1, 2024 18:08:10 GMT 1
But they'd be happy to be proven right I thought it was all Warnock's fault I personally hold Ian Greaves at fault poaching Trevor cherry |
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on Jun 1, 2024 18:48:26 GMT 1
I thought it was all Warnock's fault I personally hold Ian Greaves at fault poaching Trevor cherry I know let's all praise AB for being the worst manager that we have seen for some time and believe his excuses for being crap and blame it all on the players. not on who was telling them what to do. |
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Post by mrg on Jun 2, 2024 10:05:03 GMT 1
I get bored of this. DH is not responsible for the actions of PH, nor his finances. If I sell my car to someone and they crash it doing donuts on the ring road, it isn't my responsibility. I'm not saying Hoyle didn't make mistakes. I'm saying that it's time for Hodgkinson to shoulder the bulk of the blame. When Hoyle took over one of the things he made clear was that when it came time to sell the club he would make sure that the club was left in good hands. He clearly didn't do that and couldn't wait to bail out. He should shoulder just as much blame as PH if not more. To be fair mate, and this is hopefully the final thing I say on this, Dean nearly died being the ceo of town due to his failure to delegate. He made that decision in haste because he wanted out. Now we have an owner who can delegate but has 2 totally inexperienced Directors in the football league. Personally I'd have stuck with Dave Baldwin, but here we are. |
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Post by rothwellterrier on Aug 19, 2024 10:59:00 GMT 1
Swiss Ramble has been casting his expert eye over our accounts (up to and including 22-23 as they are the latest available).
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Aug 19, 2024 12:25:20 GMT 1
Swiss Ramble has been casting his expert eye over our accounts (up to and including 22-23 as they are the latest available). Remarkable how low Coventry City’s wages are in comparison to us, it proves that spending and wages doesn’t guarantee you a higher league position but good recruitment and a good manager does. We’ve been mismanaged and badly run for so long it just eventually caught up on us and the drop in commercial and TV revenue from relegation last season will hit us deep. |
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Post by Ginger Ogre on Aug 19, 2024 12:52:58 GMT 1
Swiss Ramble has been casting his expert eye over our accounts (up to and including 22-23 as they are the latest available). Remarkable how low Coventry City’s wages are in comparison to us, it proves that spending and wages doesn’t guarantee you a higher league position but good recruitment and a good manager does. We’ve been mismanaged and badly run for so long it just eventually caught up on us and the drop in commercial and TV revenue from relegation last season will hit us deep. It doesn't guarantee you a higher league position (there will always be 1 team that goes against the trend, Town being one in 2016/17) but generally they more you spend on players and wages they higher up the league you spend. As with anything else in life, quality generally costs money. |
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Aug 19, 2024 12:56:14 GMT 1
Remarkable how low Coventry City’s wages are in comparison to us, it proves that spending and wages doesn’t guarantee you a higher league position but good recruitment and a good manager does. We’ve been mismanaged and badly run for so long it just eventually caught up on us and the drop in commercial and TV revenue from relegation last season will hit us deep. It doesn't guarantee you a higher league position (there will always be 1 team that goes against the trend, Town being one in 2016/17) but generally they more you spend on players and wages they higher up the league you spend. As with anything else in life, quality generally costs money. My point was more that investing in the right people is more important than quantity of money. |
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Post by Essex Terrier on Aug 19, 2024 16:10:34 GMT 1
It doesn't guarantee you a higher league position (there will always be 1 team that goes against the trend, Town being one in 2016/17) but generally they more you spend on players and wages they higher up the league you spend. As with anything else in life, quality generally costs money. My point was more that investing in the right people is more important than quantity of money. Yup, everyone else got it.  |
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Post by dugnet on Aug 19, 2024 16:22:08 GMT 1
So the question is this; If we accept that quality costs money will people accept that season card prices will have to rise to add to help support that investment?
There is an element of a double edged sword here.
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Aug 19, 2024 16:25:13 GMT 1
So the question is this; If we accept that quality costs money will people accept that season card prices will have to rise to add to help support that investment? There is an element of a double edged sword here. As has been debated on the season card thread that an increase in ST prices is a drop in ocean and the drop off from an increase negates the extra income. Look at the account, it tells you quite clearly that the lack of commercial income compared to a Bristol City for example is where our issues lay, also being relegated which will have cost us at a guess around £7m+. |
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Post by impact on Aug 19, 2024 16:29:05 GMT 1
Swiss Ramble has been casting his expert eye over our accounts (up to and including 22-23 as they are the latest available). Remarkable how low Coventry City’s wages are in comparison to us, it proves that spending and wages doesn’t guarantee you a higher league position but good recruitment and a good manager does. We’ve been mismanaged and badly run for so long it just eventually caught up on us and the drop in commercial and TV revenue from relegation last season will hit us deep. Coventry's wage bill is remarkable compared to the whole league not just us, and they are the exception that breaks the rule. Places 18-24 are all the in bottom half of the wage table. Places 1-6 are all in the top half, except Coventry. You can hit gold like we did under Wagner and hugely outperform your budget, but on the whole, sadly, money wins. It isn't a level playing field. |
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Post by Sparrow on Aug 19, 2024 16:43:10 GMT 1
So the question is this; If we accept that quality costs money will people accept that season card prices will have to rise to add to help support that investment? There is an element of a double edged sword here. Commercial revenues are the revenues that need to rise and rise significantly. Increasing season ticket prices will help, but not significantly. An average £50 increase across 16K season ticket holders is £800K. But you probably don't maintain all of those 16K season ticket holders. Maybe it drops to 14.5K. £725K increase in revenue through Season cards, but then 1500 people less per match attending. 34,500 people across the season. Possibly £200K lost in match day sales? So you've made just over £500K by increasing season card prices. Doesn't really buy you a decent player if you include transfer fee wages, signing on fees, agents fees, bonus's etc. However, increase the commercial revenues by a good few million a season and that changes the whole dynamic of the clubs finances....And you don't have to increase season card prices |
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Post by dugnet on Aug 19, 2024 16:43:16 GMT 1
So the question is this; If we accept that quality costs money will people accept that season card prices will have to rise to add to help support that investment? There is an element of a double edged sword here. As has been debated on the season card thread that an increase in ST prices is a drop in ocean and the drop off from an increase negates the extra income. Look at the account, it tells you quite clearly that the lack of commercial income compared to a Bristol City for example is where our issues lay, also being relegated which will have cost us at a guess around £7m+. I don't disagree but there is a balance from a business viewpoint. The revenue we recover from season tickets and entrance receipts is also likely to be significantly, proportionately less, than Bristol City, too. There is undoubtedly a sweet spot according to the economic environment a club exists in. Where I feel a bit uncomfortable is when people (NB: this is not directed at you individually) demand investment in the team but also campaign for the cheapest possible entrance fee. On one hand an owner, Mr Nagle in our case, has chosen to take us on but there needs to be a commitment from fans to also show him some support. The attendance on Saturday showed a good level of commitment but, and to your point, how much less would that have been if entrance was more realistically priced? I don't think anyone can be unhappy with the level of commitment shown by Mr Nagle. Challenging the execution at 1st team level is about competence over financial commitment. To be fair so far this season the managerial appointment is very encouraging and the additions to the squad have made a difference. What is the value of that in relation to the price to get in, and based on the average prices across League One? I would say the £249 we have been asked to pay is more than reasonable and if/when it changes/increases it couldn't be classed as unfair, obviously the pricepoint in the future would be relevant. I, personally, don't think anyone can fairly complain about what Mr Nagle has done this closed season in squad investment, infrastructure investment and maintaining entrance prices. If that commitment continues and prices do increase then, depending on the % increase of course, I think the argument for an increase is diminished significantly. |
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Post by dugnet on Aug 19, 2024 16:59:25 GMT 1
So the question is this; If we accept that quality costs money will people accept that season card prices will have to rise to add to help support that investment? There is an element of a double edged sword here. Commercial revenues are the revenues that need to rise and rise significantly. Increasing season ticket prices will help, but not significantly. An average £50 increase across 16K season ticket holders is £800K. But you probably don't maintain all of those 16K season ticket holders. Maybe it drops to 14.5K. £725K increase in revenue through Season cards, but then 1500 people less per match attending. 34,500 people across the season. Possibly £200K lost in match day sales? So you've made just over £500K by increasing season card prices. Doesn't really buy you a decent player if you include transfer fee wages, signing on fees, agents fees, bonus's etc. However, increase the commercial revenues by a good few million a season and that changes the whole dynamic of the clubs finances....And you don't have to increase season card prices I understand the argument but I don't think that the issue is as straightforward as a balance between commercial revenue and the price charged to attend games. Noting that the more people who attend and are committed fans mean, potentially, more eyes to advertise and sell products to. The issue is one of value and what value is placed on coming to watch Town. Would a £50 increase per head per season card have lost as many as you forecast? Over a season that is less than £3 per game. The balance is creating an experience that people value, which is largely down to results/performances on the pitch but also their day out (the improvements to the stadium have made a difference and at some cost). The £800k may not buy the key player but it provides resources for the running of the club. Potentially attracting and keeping quality staff who run the club etc... I think my point was twofold: The current season card price is being, essentially, subsidised by Mr Nagle. If things don't go well on the pitch (and it is so far so good) people will be concerned/raise their concerns/moan (essentially). However what we need to be aware of is the argument that; "it has only cost 249 quid so what more can you expect"? If you see my point the price and the delivered value become linked, and in a negative context. The price is too cheap (based on the League One market place) and will need to increase at some point (if only to support the other elements of the Town business that need to keep running). |
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Post by gledholt terrier on Aug 19, 2024 17:24:48 GMT 1
So the question is this; If we accept that quality costs money will people accept that season card prices will have to rise to add to help support that investment? There is an element of a double edged sword here. Commercial revenues are the revenues that need to rise and rise significantly. Increasing season ticket prices will help, but not significantly. An average £50 increase across 16K season ticket holders is £800K. But you probably don't maintain all of those 16K season ticket holders. Maybe it drops to 14.5K. £725K increase in revenue through Season cards, but then 1500 people less per match attending. 34,500 people across the season. Possibly £200K lost in match day sales? So you've made just over £500K by increasing season card prices. Doesn't really buy you a decent player if you include transfer fee wages, signing on fees, agents fees, bonus's etc. However, increase the commercial revenues by a good few million a season and that changes the whole dynamic of the clubs finances....And you don't have to increase season card prices Commercial income rose 21% and at £4.2M is significant higher than pre-PL levels, which is a pretty impressive performance. Time for season card holders to carry a bit more on their shoulders (next season)? |
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