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Post by ShortbreadPete on May 4, 2021 23:31:40 GMT 1
Long post alert but difficult to condense all the points
Lots of fingers of blame have been pointed at lots of people in the club since our our demise from the Premier League but David Wagner appears to have escaped almost scot-free.
Dean Hoyle gave David Wagner his first big break – managing a team in the Championship. I will never forget Dean Hoyle introducing our new manager at the Millbridge Club. It was an inspirational evening and I went home believing that David Wagner was the real deal. He was enthusiastic, down to earth and brought a vision based on fitness, cohesion and Terrier Spirit.
In no time at all you could see that it was working. He introduced double training sessions; sessions timed to match kick-off times and even had the players reporting in on a Sunday to reflect on the previous day’s game. He also initially brought in players who epitomised the Terrier Spirit – players who gave their all for the team and the shirt – Schindler, Hefele, Lowe, Kachunga, Quaner – players who when selected; gave everything they’d got.
When questioned at the Millbridge Club about ‘big’ clubs in the league he replied ‘We don’t worry about the opposition, let them worry about us’. #Terrier Spirit and #No Limits were the order of the day. The Wagner Revolution had begun and it was a joy to behold.
In his first full season we were promoted. It was ahead of the plan and it was incredible. We didn’t score many and we didn’t win games by big margins but it was effective and the team mentality was both positive and strong.
Following the unexpected promotion things began to change. We started spending money that was previously unheard of for Huddersfield Town, a net total of £40M committed on fees alone before we’d even kicked a Premier League football including:
Laurent Depoitre (£3.5M) Aaron Mooy (£10M Inc. add-ons) Scott Malone £3.3M) Zanka (£3.5M) Mounie (£13m Inc. add-ons) - He was on loan that first season but came with a ‘done deal’ agreement for us to buy for the following season. Ince (£10.5M Inc. add-ons)
We got off to a good start but David Wagner then abandoned his #No Limits approach and in most games we set up not to lose – park the bus and get a goal on the break if possible. It got ever tougher to watch and if we conceded, we knew we were almost bound to lose. We played too defensively, we didn't take enough risks, we didn't create many chances, and the aim was mainly to concede as few goals as possible.
Joe Lolley was unfortunate with injuries and we never got to see his full potential on a regular basis. He was very keen to play as a no 10 but David Wagner was reluctant to play him there. Instead, he told Dean Hoyle that he badly wanted Alex Pritchard in that role so in Jan 2018 we bought him for a staggering £11M. In turn we effectively gave Joe Lolley away to Forest for a rumoured £1M but also looked after Michael Hefele in the same deal by ensuring that he also got a 3-year deal with Forest. The reality is that we’d have got a lot more out of Lolley than Pritchard if we’d kept him instead of buying Pritchard and, with wages included, we lost somewhere in the region of £15M. Entirely down to David Wagner.
David Wagner had seen his stock rise during the promotion season and both he and Dean were aware that some other clubs were showing increasing interest. David Wagner asked for and received large wage rises on three or four separate occasions from when he started. DH knew he had someone special and was keen to please DW by backing him with the players he wanted and the ever larger salary he was demanding.
Against the odds we survived that first season in the Premier league and we all looked forward to strengthening the team over the summer.
We completed the deal on Mounie
We bought Kongolo on a permanent deal for £18M
M’Benza was DW’s number one new target of the summer. DH backed him by spending £11.25M on him. (DW told the club's website: "Isaac is a very exciting player and this is a great deal for Huddersfield Town for a player with such ability and potential. You do not play for Belgium at U21 level unless you have some outstanding attributes).
We were about to buy Adam Traore and had both the fee (£20M) and wages agreed. At the eleventh hour Traore sustained an injury that was likely to see him out for up to six weeks. DW told DH that he couldn’t wait six weeks and wanted a speedy winger immediately. DW backed him yet again and from the shortlist, DW selected Diakhaby at a cost of £9m
DW commented, "He is a very hungry young footballer with a strong desire to succeed in England. Obviously he is still learning and improving at 22 years old, but he already has many of the qualities that we look for in our attacking players. He's a direct player who is comfortable with the ball at his feet and with genuine pace, which suits our style perfectly."
Bizarrely that ‘style’ changed shortly after signing both M’Benza and Diakhaby and neither of them went on to be regular starters.
By late autumn in that second season things were not going well. We were very defensive and it was getting ever harder to watch. Rock bottom of the league and it seemed that some players were already looking to their agents to find them their next honey pot. The #No Limits and ~Terrier Spirit football had all but vanished. You have to question what impact some of our most expensive and highly paid players had on the rest of the squad who encountered their inflated egos and poor attitudes on a daily basis. These very same expensive and highly paid players that had been chosen by DW who had the final say on all player purchases.
Around the same time, news was coming out that DH was critically ill and had been in hospital for some weeks. With hindsight, it appears that nobody was able to step up and fill the huge void caused by his absence.
DW had run out of ideas and knew the ship was sinking. At a time when DH was desperately struggling with his health, DW sent him a message via a third party that he wanted out by the end of the season at latest. The same DH who had given him his first big opportunity, had paid him handsomely and had backed him in spending huge amounts of money on fees and wages of players that DW had asked for. When the shit was hitting the fan, it does seem that DW put himself first. I can only imagine what impact all this must have had on DH. He was critically ill in hospital, his football team was relegation bound and DW was jumping ship leaving behind massively expensive contracted players who had no fight in them and no loyalty to the club.
The attitude of some of those players continued to be a major problem after DW left as they saw their contracts out whilst enjoying their massive salaries. Remember, DW had the last say on all of them coming into the club. When he left, he left a very expensive burden behind.
In summary
Hero – No doubts whatsoever. Gaining promotion was an incredible achievement.
Villain – For me he has to take a large amount of the blame for the dream turning sour
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Post by oldmanboothy on May 4, 2021 23:47:32 GMT 1
On the villain side it really depends how much stock you put into Wagner being responsible for transfers.
Having spoken to someone on the recruitment team at the time, essentially Wagner would identify the position that he wants and the scouting team and analysts will go away and draw up the shortlist. The least Wagner should expect is that all the players presented on the shortlist are of the quality to be able to play at the level we were at. If they’re not (and they clearly weren’t in the case of Mbenza and Diakhaby) then who is to blame?
I’ve said it before but the actual identification that we needed 2 wingers was correct. Mounie and Depoitre were starved of service in the year we survived yet when they did get a chance they typically scored. Unfortunately we ended up buying a bag of shite and the rest is history...
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Post by benhomly on May 4, 2021 23:47:50 GMT 1
You seem to know a lot about what went on behind the scenes during this time, the timing of things and who demanded what and who made what decisions etc etc. Fact or a lot of conjecture in there?
For me DW should take part of the blame but when any organisation turns sour you have to look to the very top for the lions share of the blame.
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Wagner Uber Alles
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Post by Wagner Uber Alles on May 4, 2021 23:52:11 GMT 1
Thanks for that opening piece Dean, hope you’re keeping well. Are you coming back as 100% owner or are you going to let Potless stuggle along with Clueless? Or sell up?
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Melc
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Post by Melc on May 4, 2021 23:53:09 GMT 1
What's the point of trying to put the blame on anyone, it has gone.. move on and lets see what the future holds!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 23:53:10 GMT 1
Very odd thing to put out at this moment in time.
Why is Dean Hoyle cranking up the PR machine at this time of night?
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Wagner Uber Alles
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Post by Wagner Uber Alles on May 4, 2021 23:56:51 GMT 1
Very odd thing to put out at this moment in time. Why is Dean Hoyle cranking up the PR machine at this time of night? As Maynard delicately suggested last week, something significant brewing…?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 23:58:38 GMT 1
Herbert Chapman - hero or villain?
Yes, we won the first of our two titles under him, and it was his team and structure that was responsible for the third.
But, soon as moneybags Arsenal comes knocking, he pissed off on the next charabanc without looking back.
In summary, not all that good. And definitely don't blame the chairman.
I think the above is just as relevant as the original post on this thread.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 0:02:03 GMT 1
Very odd thing to put out at this moment in time. Why is Dean Hoyle cranking up the PR machine at this time of night? As Maynard delicately suggested last week, something significant brewing…? Ok, let's say he was coming back. Why would Dean Hoyle's reputation manager use this time to disparage him? He'd hardly come back to slag off the ex chairman, so why the need to get in the first blow? All very odd.
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Post by sabailand on May 5, 2021 0:07:39 GMT 1
For many town fans who had been used to watching mediocrity and dross he made us the number one team in Yorkshire, we`ll never forget that, Wagner was at his best when in charge of average and above average players, he made them into good players and a good team, not a great team but a good team who opposition knew would be competetive to the final whistle. This carried over to some degree in the prem, but i believe Wagner found it harder to judge the so called better players than the type of player who got us promoted, maybe that was his weakness and his ultimate downfall. Any one of us could go on forever talking about him and the negatives and positives, but for me he`ll be remembered as the bloke who made the dream come true, its was so unnexpected but what a ride.
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Post by sabailand on May 5, 2021 0:12:31 GMT 1
Lot of unfair comments for a well written post that will have taken a bit of time.
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willo
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Post by willo on May 5, 2021 0:22:45 GMT 1
From what you have been posting over the last couple of weeks pete about the club’s plans for the summer followed by the above lengthy post, it’s clear you have connections within the club. FWIW, I don’t doubt that what you’ve said is pretty much how it played out and one of the reason’s DW doesn’t get much flak on here is because he is no longer connected with Huddersfield Town, something DH is. Equally, and as has been mentioned, I was under the impression DW gave the recruitment team a list of positions he wanted players for as against actual names and if this was correct, maybe he should shoulder less of the blame? He will forever be a hero to the fans though because he took us to the PL against all the odds on a shoestring and then kept us up(!). It was obvious to anyone that sat near the home dugout that towards the end of his time with us, he was a spent force (the phrase we used to use was “burnt out”) and keeping him on til the end of the season would have done nobody any good. Would it also be correct to say that none of us knew DH was particularly poorly at this time, I thought this only came to light further down the line? Anyways, I think a lot of the stick and abuse both DH and PH have received these last 18 months has been OTT although if true, I’m not a supporter of DH taking a lot of money out of the club, PH hasn’t handled things particularly well with the fans and I’m still sceptical about how he’s paying for the purchase of HTFC and lastly, I have virtually no confidence in those in player recruitment.
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Post by positive plus + pompous on May 5, 2021 6:40:46 GMT 1
Wagner took a bottom half squad to the premier league, then he created a bigger miracle by keeping up a squad that should have been rooted to the bottom of the premier league. He transformed how the club thought and operated on a daily football basis. He brought the club and Town together for the first time in decades.
In my opinion what he achieved was worth 10 times anything he may be blamed for. Wagner didn't scout the players, how could he possibly have had the time.
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on May 5, 2021 6:53:31 GMT 1
The main thing those poor signings highlight to me is that there are people within football clubs getting paid good money that are no better at spotting a player and judging potential than many folk on here.
Take Grant for example. We watched him week in week out and it was obvious that many aspects of his game were so far short of Premier League quality. His touch was abysmal, hold up play non existent and a questionable attitude when things aren't going right. That didn't stop some "experts" working for West Brom from thinking he was the missing piece of the jigsaw to help them survive and worth throwing £15 million at.
I refuse to believe that Mbenza and Diakhaby suddenly lost the ability to control a football when they arrived in Huddersfield. The matches that our scouting team watched, presumably on video rather than live, must have been littered with errors and mistakes yet they chose to overlook those and focus on the stats which said both were rapid
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Post by detox on May 5, 2021 7:10:26 GMT 1
There was only one problem at Town, and that was the lack of quality player recruitment. We had £m's to spend but spaffed it away on crap. I'm pretty sure DW didn't do the scouting as well as managing the team, so the blame goes to whoever presented that list of crap players to DW and told him they were good enough, showed him the videos put together by agents and believed them. We could have bought seasoned pro's to keep us in the PL, but no, we had to scour the international market because that sounded more glamorous. DW knew we'd bought crap which is why he never played them.
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leroy212
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Post by leroy212 on May 5, 2021 7:13:49 GMT 1
Very odd thing to put out at this moment in time. Why is Dean Hoyle cranking up the PR machine at this time of night? As Maynard delicately suggested last week, something significant brewing…? What did he put? Not been on for a while and missed maynard's post
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Post by golcarexile on May 5, 2021 7:23:38 GMT 1
Wasn't Anthony Limbombe the number one target in the window we ended up with Mbenza? The saga went on all summer beforw we finally pulled the plug after his dad asked for more brass at the eleventh hour. Signing Mbenza smacked of desperation.
For the record, I don't think it was wingers we needed. Ince and VLP were getting through an awful lot of defensive work and replacing them with luxury players, which most out and out wingers are, was never going to be a good idea. We should have been going for grafters with experience and a bit of quality instead of untried 'potential'. There were players like Okazaki who was surplus to requirements at Leicester available. Chris Brunt was mentioned at one point as well, somebody who can actually cross a ball.
We got it wrong. We bought the wrong players and overpaid for them. My hunch is that Wagner's role in bringing in these particular players was limited. He definitely didn't seem keen on playing either Diakhaby or Mbenza from the outset. I don't buy the line that he gave up on 'no limts' either. Wagner was pragmatic from day one and we rode our luck. In that second season it just ran out.
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Post by Mastercracker on May 5, 2021 7:25:02 GMT 1
Let’s not forgot our wage budget that was bottom 3 or 4 when promoted and £20m less almost everyone else in the bottom half of the prem when we survived. And still £20m less than everyone else bar Cardiff when we didn’t. But he spent £40m! Great, that gets you about 4 average prem players at best.
And because DW couldn’t sustain a miracle for a third time on cheap wages villain is mentioned.
Maybe he should have just got some pints in then he’d be a hero for everyone.
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Post by jakeg on May 5, 2021 7:32:00 GMT 1
I like history, I always did at school and since It can teach us some of the reasons why we are here, why we do certain things or why certain structures exist. It can teach us lessons about when things went wrong and how we might avoid them in the future. If we don't teach kids about the rise of Hitler then we aren't equipped to see it potentially happening again
It's also, on the other hand, a lot of pointless naval gazing that seeks to use selective facts, make them fit and use hindsight to apportion blame and plaudits. Churchill made stupendously terrible and crass decisions but also incredible and nation making triumphs. Whether you choose to demonise or deify him is your own business. It doesn't change anything.
So it's useful to think why we are where we are but its not one decision, or one man's fault. Neither was promotion solely down to one man (although its about as close as I've ever seen to being just that).
My hero is/was Buxton. I was a child and a teenager when he was manager and he could do no wrong. But he did, thousands of time. We all do. Sometimes we get away with it, sometimes not. Sometimes we make great decisions- sometimes they go un noticed and sometimes the stars align.
Wagner made great decisions, he made bad ones. Or at least, now we know the end of the story we judge those decisions. Schindler could have been a disaster, Pritchard a triumph. Diakhaby now worth £40m....OK too far.
He might come back, he might not. If he did he will be judged on what he acheives this time. Judgement is a personal.preference of which facts outweigh others. Personally Wagner gave me singularly the best 2 years watching Town. That's not luck. But then lost his way.
All i know is this summer is critical. That's whag matters
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Post by Essex Terrier on May 5, 2021 7:41:59 GMT 1
Lot of unfair comments for a well written post that will have taken a bit of time. Welcome to DATM.
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Post by Bigcolquaner on May 5, 2021 7:55:51 GMT 1
More hero less villain. Can hardly blame a manager for asking for more money or asking for money to spend on players. It's the chairman's job to say no.
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Post by Mastercracker on May 5, 2021 8:01:02 GMT 1
Meanwhile Bielsa gets Leeds promoted, at the second rather than first full attempt, on a wage budget higher than our premier league one, getting paid twice as much in the champ as Wagner did in the Prem, then spends £100m on players and gets a wage budget that slots straight in at mid table levels and he gets full hero , murals and streets named after him.
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Post by benhomly on May 5, 2021 8:01:39 GMT 1
As Maynard delicately suggested last week, something significant brewing…? What did he put? Not been on for a while and missed maynard's post In his first post he suggested that there was a small chink of light at the end of the tunnel but went no further than that. Then in a later post he said that we had signed 4 players for next season already but obviously couldn't name any names. Whether the second post was the small chink of light mentioned in the first post I don't know. Personally I hope not, I hope it's to do with the running/ownership of the club because as someone else pointed out would we have any confidence in the 4 new signings being any good judging by the signings made already by our recruitment team.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on May 5, 2021 8:06:32 GMT 1
I think my biggest disappointment was in the man management side of things after we survived. He should have known and communicated to the players that season 2 is always harder than season 1, assuming you survive. Some players clearly felt they'd achieved an end goal and actually it should have been phase 2 of a 5 or ten year plan complete. I've never seen a player decline so rapidly as Laurent De Poitre. He was immense in the first season. He made some seasoned internationals look ordinary. Season 2 he looked like a Sunday league player.
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Post by softboy on May 5, 2021 8:09:36 GMT 1
On the basis of this thread Mike Buxton must be the ultimate villian. We were in the bottom division going nowhere with a few thousand who turned up and no one else cared. And he started the dream. And second villian has to be Schindler for scoring the winning penalty at Wembley to take us to the PL. If he had missed we would never had this so called fall from grace!
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Champers
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Post by Champers on May 5, 2021 8:14:44 GMT 1
I arent reading all that. What's the main crux of it, anyone?
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Post by durhamterrier on May 5, 2021 8:22:12 GMT 1
Think if we are going to criticise his transfer dealings we have to praise the majority . Even the best got it wrong sometimes - remember Fergie signing David Bellion and DjembaDjemba or Wenger signing senderos?
When it came to signing players he knew of, he smashed it. When it came to identifying positions we needed to strengthen , he smashed it. When it came to approving players he’d not seen before provided by scouting network as suitable , he didn’t... but not many do .
We needed two, maybe three wingers before our second season and scouts came back with options . My guess is he wanted Adama Traore as his first option .., which fell through and we got Mbenza.
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Post by space hardware on May 5, 2021 8:23:33 GMT 1
Wow.
Reads like just another pro-Hoyle PR puff piece, just like that podcast he did with his tame interviewer.
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Post by jakeg on May 5, 2021 8:23:41 GMT 1
I think my biggest disappointment was in the man management side of things after we survived. He should have known and communicated to the players that season 2 is always harder than season 1, assuming you survive. Some players clearly felt they'd achieved an end goal and actually it should have been phase 2 of a 5 or ten year plan complete. I've never seen a player decline so rapidly as Laurent De Poitre. He was immense in the first season. He made some seasoned internationals look ordinary. Season 2 he looked like a Sunday league player. But how do we know he didn't sit them all down and go through that very thing. Agreed Depoitre was a very strange affair that he went so downhill but we don't know it wasn't other factors, personal stuff, him.not listening. It could of course but like you said - wagner not preparing the squad for the challenge. I don't know which, neither do you and neither does pretty much anyone! I completely get the whole point of the the board is for people's opinions based on very few facts (because we will probably never know any true facts). And it's the better for that. Just think sometimes (and this doesn't relate to your post) it's either feast or famine. Either the devil or God. Truth is good stuff and bad stuff and we take a view from there
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Post by durhamterrier on May 5, 2021 8:23:46 GMT 1
Meanwhile Bielsa gets Leeds promoted, at the second rather than first full attempt, on a wage budget higher than our premier league one, getting paid twice as much in the champ as Wagner did in the Prem, then spends £100m on players and gets a wage budget that slots straight in at mid table levels and he gets full hero , murals and streets named after him. I’m still waiting to see if Farke is nominated for coach of the year after taking a Norwich team considerably weaker than Leeds up as champions with a higher points total and better goal difference
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