wigster
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Post by wigster on May 5, 2021 10:39:04 GMT 1
Goodness me Shortbread - I presume you're connected in some way with Dean Hoyle - this post seems more about Mr Hoyle than Mr Wagner. Would I be right in assuming that you are a massive fan of the aforementioned previous owner ?
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Post by Teddington Ted on May 5, 2021 10:42:17 GMT 1
The Traore incident highlights everything we need to know. Wagner wanted him and Hoyle was personally assigned to get him. By his own mouth, Hoyle went on holiday, forgot to ring to finalise the deal on time, Traore got crocked and Wagner had to find a replacement.
We were a PL club and entirely reliant on one man, half way around the world, to remember to make a phone call to sign an international player for £20m. Wagner must have been tearing his hair out. Where’s the delegation, trust and competence in a board who are running a business turning over about £120m a year? The club was being run like a jumble sale stall. It’s then on Wagner to pick up the pieces, whilst in pre-season training and managing a club in the richest league in the world.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 10:45:37 GMT 1
For me, we can have this debate at any time.
What is concerning is that, unless Pete has an incredibly fertile imagination, this is straight from the desk of Dean Hoyle.
Why now? Why kick a hornets' nest like this just when we've guaranteed staying up? Will this engender the sort of togetherness necessary for future success?
It seems dangerously at odds for sometime who loves the club.
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Post by space hardware on May 5, 2021 10:49:33 GMT 1
Thou shalt not criticise Wagner. Some pretty shit responses to a well constructed opening post for me He is indeed a hero and a villain, and always will be. Defend. Defend. DEFEND,DEFEND,DEFEND. It was shite to watch once he'd lost the magic. Ironic, given that the OP has pretty much the exact view of Hoyle.
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Post by HalifaxTerrier on May 5, 2021 10:53:56 GMT 1
Thou shalt not criticise Wagner. Some pretty shit responses to a well constructed opening post for me He is indeed a hero and a villain, and always will be. Defend. Defend. DEFEND,DEFEND,DEFEND. It was shite to watch once he'd lost the magic. I disagree that it was shite to watch, especially early on in that season. It was frustrating when we couldn't break teams down but I thought in a lot of those matches in the second PL season we looked a much better team than the year before, we just couldn't get the breaks and score the goals. For me that was largely down to the poor recruitment in two key areas. We knew we were in need of wingers that could not only create, but also chip in with the odd goal, and then I'd add a proper number 10 into that as well as it was evident that Alex Pritchard wasn't the ideal in that position for us either. The rest of our squad looked fairly reasonable considering our budget at the time but our attacking options fell massively short and we were left with trying to play attacking full backs instead of any of our new wingers due to them not being good enough, lets not forget Sobhi in that list too, who found him? I doubt that going gung ho and/or playing an attacking high press would really have been the answer to any of our problems that year. We would have still struggled to create and finish and would have left ourselves more open in the process. Who knows though, maybe it would have worked but I'm highly sceptical, who would have scored the goals? As for Wagner being a villain, it's just laughable how he can even be considered as such. Ridiculous.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on May 5, 2021 11:03:27 GMT 1
After he took a club that was going nowhere into the Premier league he could have shat on the town hall steps, bumped off terry the terrier and been unmasked as otium for all I care
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Post by Mastercracker on May 5, 2021 11:06:16 GMT 1
Wonder if they have the same discussions on the Sheff United forum calling Wilder a villain. I doubt it tbh.
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Post by morleyterrier on May 5, 2021 11:09:53 GMT 1
Can never ever be categorised as anything other than a hero.
The summer transfer window where we allegedly bought Players based on a style of play that he allegedly then changed thus rendering these Players surplus to requirements remains open for debate. If true, then Wagner has to take some of the responsibility here in terms of his otherwise pretty much faultless tenure.
I also do not know why he panicked after Tottenham at home and we abandoned our 'no fear' approach. We will never know what might have been had we held our line (thanks Chris Loewe for your significant contribution in this).
That aside, hero and most certainly not a villain.
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Post by dugnet on May 5, 2021 11:12:41 GMT 1
I find this whole debate puzzling in as much as I am not sure what it achieves? What I find more puzzling is how time has clouded people's view of our 2nd season in the Premier League.
My views are well known, put simply we failed to plan in the long term from June 2017. Moss was appointed, and although I have no idea of the dynamics of who did what at that time, and made a reasonable fist of the recruitment for PL season one. He left pretty soon after the first window closed and we then seemed to enter a realm of everyone dabbling in the footballing side. NB: I don't know who ultimately made the call on recruitment but I seem to remember a comment, both after Webber and Moss left, about being able to continue with the people at the club.
I think we all agree that PL season 2 is where we made significant mistakes in recruitment. On the pitch I would contend that performances in matches up until the fateful Brighton at home were reasonable in that we were in games but our failure to score enough was our downfall. Had we addressed our weakness up front and out wide we would have had a chance. After Brighton, and the battling 1-0 loss at Arsenal, the wheels fell off as Mooy was injured. The losses at home to Newcastle and Southampton killed the season and it was incredible how quickly things fell apart. Wagner was clearly spent and with DH ill it made for a very poor situation. Appointing Siewert was merely the final nail in our Premier League coffin.
In my opinion had we planned better earlier the club would have been in a better position for the inevitable relegation and would have been able to ride the terrible illness to DH.
Now to the question posed was DW a hero or a villain? For all he achieved, and the manner he achieved it he has to be classed as an absolute hero. Was he culpable for the mistakes in Premier League 2? He almost certainly carries a degree of responsibility, but he shouldn't be alone in that burden. DH is just as responsible as he called the shots, he set the agenda. Those who had any involvement in the footballing side, coaches, recruitment and players, are all responsible to a degree. Does this mean they are all to be cast as villains? No, just people who made mistakes.
Here's something that makes me smile. On a footballing front DW's decision to abandon a certain Rajiv Van La Parra is something that potential polarises any review into our footballing fortunes at that time. For all the frustrations many had with VLP isn't it ironic when you look at the value that Mbenza and Diakhaby provided?
What I find immensely frustrating about this debate is that it is looking for scapegoats for our current predicament. It also has the scent of "defend DH at all costs". My position on DH is clear; He did may great things for this club, he invested considerable money and time and for that he should be rightly respected. He was also responsible for a failure to look at the bigger picture and set a new agenda for the club. He was so trusted at the time of promotion had he said "I am taking a long term view in how we manage this opportunity (promotion to the PL) so this club can be better over the next 10 years" (as was intimated - the "step change") pretty much everyone would have been behind him. I would certainly have defended him, as I have on many occasions on here down the years, and been happy with that approach.
The fact is that didn't happen and as a result, through bad planning and some bad luck, we find ourselves looking downwards and hoping we avoid relegation to League One. I know we are safe this season but can anyone honestly say they see us doing any better next season based on what we know today?
There are no villains, there are no easy targets to blame it was a collective failure with some more culpable than others. By continuing the debate of who should be vilified all we do is continue with a negative mindset that drags everyone down. Someone has to drag us all back up and start looking forward. If there is one thing DW did for our club, that cements him as a true hero, it was his ability to be the catalyst that brought all aspects of the club together. It was a unique skill and one that we so desperately need now.
The one group of people who weren't culpable were us, the fans. I understand that debates will continue, and I am as guilty as anyone else, but at some point we need to look forward. PH is now charged with the responsibility, a responsibility he wanted. Can he start to bring some unity? I hope he can.
We must learn from the past but also break away from the clutches it has on our fortune. This is true for everyone who has our club at heart.
UTT
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Post by impact on May 5, 2021 11:17:27 GMT 1
He performed a miracle 2 seasons running. He took a club which was dwindling at the bottom of the championship with no real hope or ambition and turned everything around - the atmosphere, the belief, the professionalism.
The guy was a genius and I can't understand any Town fan who doesn't think he was a hero.
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Post by El Mel on May 5, 2021 11:17:41 GMT 1
For me, we can have this debate at any time. What is concerning is that, unless Pete has an incredibly fertile imagination, this is straight from the desk of Dean Hoyle. Why now? Why kick a hornets' nest like this just when we've guaranteed staying up? Will this engender the sort of togetherness necessary for future success? It seems dangerously at odds for sometime who loves the club. I'm sure if Dean wanted to try and defend his position on here he would. (Although he'd be daft to even try) Trying to discredit a supporters views by claiming it's come from Hoyle is a bit shit isn't it? If you think it has come from DH, you need to back it up, if you genuinely think he's trying to kick a hornets nest.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 11:20:25 GMT 1
For me, we can have this debate at any time. What is concerning is that, unless Pete has an incredibly fertile imagination, this is straight from the desk of Dean Hoyle. Why now? Why kick a hornets' nest like this just when we've guaranteed staying up? Will this engender the sort of togetherness necessary for future success? It seems dangerously at odds for sometime who loves the club. I'm sure if Dean wanted to try and defend his position on here he would. (Although he'd be daft to even try) Trying to discredit a supporters views by claiming it's come from Hoyle is a bit shit isn't it? If you think it has come from DH, you need to back it up, if you genuinely think he's trying to kick a hornets nest. Because that passage contains information that isn't available in the public realm. Lots of it. Now, it can only have come from a bloke in Germany or a bloke just outside Cleckheaton. Where is it most likely to have stemmed from?
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Wingman
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Post by Wingman on May 5, 2021 11:20:31 GMT 1
The OP is clearly thought out and presented. But for me it’s just a diversion post away from the comments towards PH/DH currently. DH won hero status and has lost it, whereas PH has never had it but could yet turn it around. A mammoth task as it stands,
Wagner is no villain, he gave us all something we never believed possible. He believed, and for that, he is a hero.
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Post by Stavros on May 5, 2021 11:31:29 GMT 1
A mixture of hero and villain I suppose. My split is 100% hero and 0% villain. As for Hoyle the split is rather different.
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Post by Teddington Ted on May 5, 2021 11:32:28 GMT 1
Wonder if they have the same discussions on the Sheff United forum calling Wilder a villain. I doubt it tbh. Good point. Is Howe a villain to Bournemouth fans? Would Dyche be a bastard on the message boards of Burnley if they went down next year? How about if Leeds succumb to 2nd season syndrome, would Bielsa be hounded online? I’m guessing not. Some Town fans are just a special breed.
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Post by El Mel on May 5, 2021 11:33:43 GMT 1
I'm sure if Dean wanted to try and defend his position on here he would. (Although he'd be daft to even try) Trying to discredit a supporters views by claiming it's come from Hoyle is a bit shit isn't it? If you think it has come from DH, you need to back it up, if you genuinely think he's trying to kick a hornets nest. Because that passage contains information that isn't available in the public realm. Lots of it. Now, it can only have come from a bloke in Germany or a bloke just outside Cleckheaton. Where is it most likely to have stemmed from? It's come from a bloke in Leeds Give your head a shake lad.
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Post by Mastercracker on May 5, 2021 11:35:58 GMT 1
Wonder if they have the same discussions on the Sheff United forum calling Wilder a villain. I doubt it tbh. Good point. Is Howe a villain to Bournemouth fans? Would Dyche be a bastard on the message boards of Burnley if they went down next year? How about if Leeds succumb to 2nd season syndrome, would Bielsa be hounded online? I’m guessing not. Some Town fans are just a special breed. Probably not. Yet all the clubs you mention had/have much more competitive budgets than DW had here.
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Post by overtonterrierspirit on May 5, 2021 11:38:38 GMT 1
No Manager in the history of the game has a perfect 100% signing record.
This is been used as a stick to beat the man who in a season and a bit, transformed our club, took us to the Premier League and brought the whole Town together for 2 wonderful years.
Most of us have never experienced this before and sadly will probably never experience it again.
Some may blame him for this club’s shortcomings but lots know where the blame really lies.
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Post by detox on May 5, 2021 11:38:52 GMT 1
I think my biggest disappointment was in the man management side of things after we survived. He should have known and communicated to the players that season 2 is always harder than season 1, assuming you survive. Some players clearly felt they'd achieved an end goal and actually it should have been phase 2 of a 5 or ten year plan complete. I've never seen a player decline so rapidly as Laurent De Poitre. He was immense in the first season. He made some seasoned internationals look ordinary. Season 2 he looked like a Sunday league player. As regards Depoitre, he got 7 goals in that 1st season but the wingers were VLP, Ince plus Kachunga and Quanar aside him..the 2nd season we had no wingers...VLP, Ince and Quanar were gone and kachunga only played a handful of games ..Mbenze and Diakhaby made about 10 appearances between them.. I don't think it was so much Depoitre declining as the support play being non existent.
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Post by Hoggy on May 5, 2021 11:39:55 GMT 1
Good point. Is Howe a villain to Bournemouth fans? Would Dyche be a bastard on the message boards of Burnley if they went down next year? How about if Leeds succumb to 2nd season syndrome, would Bielsa be hounded online? I’m guessing not. Some Town fans are just a special breed. Probably not. Yet all the clubs you mention had/have much more competitive budgets than DW had here. Not sure Dyche has ever had a competitive budget by Premier League standards, hence his constant moaning in January and Summer every year
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Post by dm on May 5, 2021 11:44:41 GMT 1
Whilst I disagree with some of the OP, I do partially agree with the sentiment - definitely a hero, but is also partly why we always play out from the back and often into trouble.
Wagner was an absolute legend for Town and I previously thought that despite all the positives, he has left us with the hangover of this shit style that we can't budge (it wasn't always a shit style but has been for what feels like decades). For me though, the constant backward passing, playing out from the back and into trouble can't all be down to Wagner. Its not far off 2 and a half years since he left and we're still doing it and even insisting that the youth teams play that way. For years now the club has seemed so proud that all Town teams play the same way. Unfortunately, the kids seem to be able to do it better than the first team.
I also think that Wagner had his time for success but his inability/refusal to adapt his style has been his undoing.
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Post by Hoggy on May 5, 2021 11:44:55 GMT 1
I think my biggest disappointment was in the man management side of things after we survived. He should have known and communicated to the players that season 2 is always harder than season 1, assuming you survive. Some players clearly felt they'd achieved an end goal and actually it should have been phase 2 of a 5 or ten year plan complete. I've never seen a player decline so rapidly as Laurent De Poitre. He was immense in the first season. He made some seasoned internationals look ordinary. Season 2 he looked like a Sunday league player. As regards Depoitre, he got 7 goals in that 1st season but the wingers were VLP, Ince plus Kachunga and Quanar aside him..the 2nd season we had no wingers...VLP, Ince and Quanar were gone and kachunga only played a handful of games ..Mbenze and Diakhaby made about 10 appearances between them.. I don't think it was so much Depoitre declining as the support play being non existent. Interesting view. To me it seemed like he couldn't be arsed in his second season. Looked to have lost a bit of pace (not much to start with) and the ball constantly bounced off him. I think he is one of the players Hoyle alluded to who certainly thought they 'belonged' in the Premier League and let their standards slip. I remember VLP was slaughtered by many for failing to put a good ball in the box. Quaner is barely a league 1 player let alone premier league standard.
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Post by Teddington Ted on May 5, 2021 11:47:03 GMT 1
Seems daft to rake over such old coals when there’s plenty of current debates to be had.
My view,FWIW, is that the stars merely aligned. We had a gifted coach, a healthy, re-enthused chairman, a fan base desperate to back the club and happened upon some players (such as Mooy & Schindler) the quality of which we hadn’t seen for 2 generations. It simply clicked.
As with most similar scenarios, it couldn’t last. The pendulum swung, times changed and the synchronisty was lost.
‘Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold’ as Yeats wrote.
Lots of small factors simply meant we were no longer greater than the sum of our parts.
We’d be foolish to ruin the memories by apportioning blame.
Ask fans of a Bristol City, Brentford et al how they feel never having experienced such an endeavour and cherish the times we enjoyed.
Then look forward and plan how to achieve them again.
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Post by tepidterrier on May 5, 2021 11:52:08 GMT 1
There's a few glaring inaccuracies in the OP to be honest. None more so than claiming Mbenza was our number 1 target in the summer. He was at least 5th choice. Mbenza was signed (with our pants down as we were so desperate) because we had failed to get: Ante Rebic Alphonso Davies (!) Adama Traore Anthony Limbombe
There may have been more but I'm pretty sure these were players we had confirmed interest in. The Limbombe saga dragged on for weeks and weeks, and Mbenza's name only came up after that, a few days before he signed right at the end of the window. That's not how you go after a number 1 target.
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Post by Waterloo Terrier on May 5, 2021 11:52:34 GMT 1
Proper villain. How dare he take a club from the Championship relegation zone to briefly top of the Premier League on the back of one of the smallest budgets in the second tier. Give me more Grayson, Robins, Powell, Siewert, Cowley and Corberan football any day. Nurse, have you got my pills?
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Post by detox on May 5, 2021 11:52:49 GMT 1
As regards Depoitre, he got 7 goals in that 1st season but the wingers were VLP, Ince plus Kachunga and Quanar aside him..the 2nd season we had no wingers...VLP, Ince and Quanar were gone and kachunga only played a handful of games ..Mbenze and Diakhaby made about 10 appearances between them.. I don't think it was so much Depoitre declining as the support play being non existent. Interesting view. To me it seemed like he couldn't be arsed in his second season. Looked to have lost a bit of pace (not much to start with) and the ball constantly bounced off him. I think he is one of the players Hoyle alluded to who certainly thought they 'belonged' in the Premier League and let their standards slip. I remember VLP was slaughtered by many for failing to put a good ball in the box. Quaner is barely a league 1 player let alone premier league standard. tbh if I'd been playing up top that season, and making endless runs but not getting a pass..I'd be poxed off too. We were doubling up full backs in the hope Lowe and Kongolo could provide the crosses..Flo' and Smith seemed to have lost it and Durm never had it..and Pritchard was supposed to be the main link man !!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 11:54:32 GMT 1
If Wagner's a villain what would you call Stan Ternent? Stan?
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ambryboy
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Post by ambryboy on May 5, 2021 12:03:07 GMT 1
Because that passage contains information that isn't available in the public realm. Lots of it. Now, it can only have come from a bloke in Germany or a bloke just outside Cleckheaton. Where is it most likely to have stemmed from? It's come from a bloke in Leeds Give your head a shake lad. Who precisely is your bloke in Leeds Mel? Why did Iffy's reply warrant such a condescending response?
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Post by Mastercracker on May 5, 2021 12:09:11 GMT 1
Whilst I disagree with some of the OP, I do partially agree with the sentiment - definitely a hero, but is also partly why we always play out from the back and often into trouble. Wagner was an absolute legend for Town and I previously thought that despite all the positives, he has left us with the hangover of this shit style that we can't budge (it wasn't always a shit style but has been for what feels like decades). For me though, the constant backward passing, playing out from the back and into trouble can't all be down to Wagner. Its not far off 2 and a half years since he left and we're still doing it and even insisting that the youth teams play that way. For years now the club has seemed so proud that all Town teams play the same way. Unfortunately, the kids seem to be able to do it better than the first team. I also think that Wagner had his time for success but his inability/refusal to adapt his style has been his undoing. Burnley’s wage bill is £100m. It was £80m+ when we were there. Way above ours.
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Post by specialun on May 5, 2021 12:09:44 GMT 1
Villain? Good grief
The only villain part Wagner plays was 1. Achieving promotion and 2. Achieving one better and keeping us up
Why? It meant the board failed to pay sufficient attention to the key role of DOF & thought Wagner’s magic would overcome any shortcomings
Webber’s departure during the promotion season should have been a wake up call
But the board believed the extraordinary was the ordinary and failed to run the club (from a football recruitment point of view) like a championship let alone premier league club
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