|
Post by benhomly on May 5, 2021 15:01:06 GMT 1
He was an absolute embarrassment, but bizarrely escaped a lot of criticism at the time. Looked to have enjoyed the summer too much and lost a yard of pace, and didn't try and make up for it in effort. Weird thing is that when Siewert came in he had a brief period where he looked a bit more sprightly, hit the post a couple of times when he'd come nowhere near scoring in the first part of the season. Maybe he lost weight because he'd been holding in a huge turd waiting to use the Canalside changing room toilet for months. Depoitre wasn't the only one. The Lossl affair was a strange one as well. Stalling over a new contract or coming back unfit from the world cup, whichever it was, it certainly didn't help our cause that we had Hamer in nets diving out of the way of everything headed in his direction for the first few games. That solidarity which had seemed unbreakable for two years suddenly evaporated after that night out in Soho. It might seem like it but he didn't dive out of the way of everything in the 6-1 defeat at Man City, they had 14 shots on target that day
|
|
|
Post by morleyterrier on May 5, 2021 15:24:23 GMT 1
Can never ever be categorised as anything other than a hero. The summer transfer window where we allegedly bought Players based on a style of play that he allegedly then changed thus rendering these Players surplus to requirements remains open for debate. If true, then Wagner has to take some of the responsibility here in terms of his otherwise pretty much faultless tenure. I also do not know why he panicked after Tottenham at home and we abandoned our 'no fear' approach. We will never know what might have been had we held our line ( thanks Chris Loewe for your significant contribution in this).That aside, hero and most certainly not a villain. A bit harsh on Loewe, seeing he was an integral reason as to why we were playing Spurs in the first place. Harsh, but in context true.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 15:59:33 GMT 1
I think some are going overboard a bit with the euphemistic use of the term 'villain' - I don't think he's meaning a dastardly character with evil intentions simply a metaphorical way of saying he did some things good (mostly IMO) and a few things wrong (which I also believe is true). But in every walk of life, every profession, who gets everything right all the time? Wagner was great for us but bailed out when everything conspired against the Club. What I cannot accept is some of the revisionist stuff putting the blame for our current shitty plight at his doorstep. I don’t think football fans are very good at living in the moment; we just have to have something to whinge and moan about.
|
|
|
Post by Convictatthemac on May 5, 2021 15:59:40 GMT 1
A bit harsh on Loewe, seeing he was an integral reason as to why we were playing Spurs in the first place. Harsh, but in context true. I think we just got Spurs when they had a bloody good day. All the one touch passing was hitting the targets and we just seemed to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time. That happens in football, sometimes it happens against the best and the worst. Loewe wasn’t at fault, it just is what it is. What we should have done is just picked up and continued on, not shit ourselves. But none of that matters now. Dislike the use of the word hero in this context, so he was 0% hero to me. That said, I 100% admired what he did, and no way would I call him a villain, he just lost the magic.
|
|
|
Post by sociallydistant on May 5, 2021 16:18:28 GMT 1
Depoitre wasn't the only one. The Lossl affair was a strange one as well. Stalling over a new contract or coming back unfit from the world cup, whichever it was, it certainly didn't help our cause that we had Hamer in nets diving out of the way of everything headed in his direction for the first few games. That solidarity which had seemed unbreakable for two years suddenly evaporated after that night out in Soho. It might seem like it but he didn't dive out of the way of everything in the 6-1 defeat at Man City, they had 14 shots on target that day Yeah he actually made some cracking saves that day. A couple went in a bit easy, but cancelled out by his saves.
|
|
|
Post by canterburyterrier on May 5, 2021 16:20:11 GMT 1
I'm going to sit on the fence for this one. After promotion and staying in the premier league both Wagner and Hoyle were heroes. Staying up seems to have changed the club's attitude - did they begin to believe they would stay up the following year and so spend money less wisely.
Hoyle brought Wagner into the club, regardless of whose idea it was brilliant. Wagner motivated and prepared players, that got us promotion - again brilliant. According to reports Hoyle increased Wagner's salary a number of times to keep him at Town and to stop him going off to another club - he was in demand. Wagner was happy to stay.
If I am in a job but my skill set is such that I am in demand I stay in the job whilst I am happy with the way things are run. If I don't like the way things are going I change jobs. This is the bit I don't get if Wagner wasn't getting the players he wanted why did he stay?
I think the argument that poor recruitment was down to others is probably wrong and that Wagner had some responsibility for it. If he had been given a bunch of players he didn't want he could have turned to Hoyle and said I'm going to quit and look for a better job. He didn't. The fact that those players have turned out to be such poor investments is what has cost us. I don't blame Wagner for this failure, there was a budget and he had to work with that. I don't blame Hoyle - although him taking his money back hasn't made life easy.
In summary I see both Wagner and Hoyle as heroes for what they achieved with some of the frailties of all humans.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 16:22:13 GMT 1
No. He was unfit, unmotivated, a shadow of his former self. It was clear whenever he was on the Pitch. Too busy looking after his hair transplant to bother putting much effort into training and playing the second season. His warming up routine at half time was comical. He just lurched around and scratched his bollocks. Whenever he got on, he just lurched around a bit and scratched his bollocks. He had clearly downed tools after that Chelsea game.
|
|
|
Post by Mecha Corte on May 5, 2021 17:37:52 GMT 1
I've never come across a manager of HTFC (or very few others in fact) whereby I'd literally hang off his every word post match on the car journey home, often parking up at home and sat on the drive listening for 10-15 mins until he'd stopped. The guy was utter class and talked exactly as the fans could see it. Also, have we had a manager when it was announced he was 'leaving', it was almost funeral like ? Total end of era stuff, not the usual 'thank **** he's gone' reaction. Of course some things could have been done differently, but in the 'Total Legend' category for me. I could give a hundred examples to back up the gist of your thread, I absolutely agree with you, we as Town fans had got used to 2nd stint Jacko, Ritchie, Ternant, Clark, Greyson, Robins and Powell all telling us we had played well, when clearly we hadn’t (worryingly it seems Corberan has started to do the same recently, I hope it’s a blip.) and I was genuinely pissed off heading to Hull for the first game of a new season when on the Friday night Powell raised the white flag to - how can we hope to compete with the likes of them. Wagner was a true terrier when he first joined, let other teams worry about us and with Newcastle and Villa the first two away games, these are the games you want. Admittedly it seemed to get diluted with promotion, the first defeat at West Ham was a game he tried to not lose rather than win and for me Spurs at home messed him up as bad as Millwall in the playoffs did with Lee Clark but what prompted me to post was the comment about listening to him post match on the radio, I would sit on the drive waiting for his interview to finish before getting out of the car, never done that before or since, Warnock was always good value, to be fair love him or loathe him Stan was worth listening to but nobody else has come close to that Wagner magic.
|
|
|
Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on May 5, 2021 17:44:41 GMT 1
Good debate, although it is going over old ground with lots of entrenched views that ultimately aren't going to be changed. Not sure of the need or motives for raking it up now.
One thing I will point out is that one of Hoyle's tactics for galvanising support has always been to shred former players and create an official narrative to be accepted as wisdom on the terraces, in the pub and on here. Jack Hunt was a good example, can't remember the specifics of it but Hoyle told a few 'home truths' about him on a Q&A and he was an almost instant villain after leaving. I remember at the time thinking it was a rather ungracious way of soiling the legacy of a home-grown player that we made a few quid out of.
Another example, Butterfield refusing to get on the coach to Fulham. I'm sure those with better memories will be able to correct, update or add specifics.
We made something like £7m or £8m out of selling those two players. The specifics of what was said about them might've been true or might not have been. But the stories were framed in a very specific way to make the club look like innocent and wronged parties.
There's always two sides to every story and I'm sure those two would have quite different takes on what happened. Also what about players like Smithies - as I recall he was sold quite clinically and quickly (his missus was pregnant also?) and had to move down to London, all because we'd given him too generous a contract.
For a man to have achieved what Hoyle achieved in business he will be ruthless and I see that in how reputations have been managed and narratives created. All well and good when it's ultimately for the good of the football club but I think that has stopped being the case.
|
|
boooothy
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,561
|
Post by boooothy on May 5, 2021 19:27:31 GMT 1
Hero. Absolute miracle worker and we would not be in this mess if he’d been allowed to carry on till the end of the season.
|
|
|
Post by johntheterrier on May 5, 2021 19:39:11 GMT 1
I've never come across a manager of HTFC (or very few others in fact) whereby I'd literally hang off his every word post match on the car journey home, often parking up at home and sat on the drive listening for 10-15 mins until he'd stopped. The guy was utter class and talked exactly as the fans could see it. Also, have we had a manager when it was announced he was 'leaving', it was almost funeral like ? Total end of era stuff, not the usual 'thank **** he's gone' reaction. Of course some things could have been done differently, but in the 'Total Legend' category for me. I could give a hundred examples to back up the gist of your thread, I absolutely agree with you, we as Town fans had got used to 2nd stint Jacko, Ritchie, Ternant, Clark, Greyson, Robins and Powell all telling us we had played well, when clearly we hadn’t (worryingly it seems Corberan has started to do the same recently, I hope it’s a blip.) and I was genuinely pissed off heading to Hull for the first game of a new season when on the Friday night Powell raised the white flag to - how can we hope to compete with the likes of them. Wagner was a true terrier when he first joined, let other teams worry about us and with Newcastle and Villa the first two away games, these are the games you want. Admittedly it seemed to get diluted with promotion, the first defeat at West Ham was a game he tried to not lose rather than win and for me Spurs at home messed him up as bad as Millwall in the playoffs did with Lee Clark but what prompted me to post was the comment about listening to him post match on the radio, I would sit on the drive waiting for his interview to finish before getting out of the car, never done that before or since, Warnock was always good value, to be fair love him or loathe him Stan was worth listening to but nobody else has come close to that Wagner magic. 100% agree.
|
|
|
Post by southowram on May 5, 2021 20:21:58 GMT 1
We saw days the like of which we’ve not seen for a generation or will see for another generation.
|
|
|
Post by 66738 on May 5, 2021 21:08:27 GMT 1
Of course David made mistakes. He’s human. They wouldn’t put erasers on the top of Pencils ✏️ If we were perfect. But by Jove! I can forgive them all, for the wonderful times we experienced under his guidance on the way to the Prem and selected moments of our first season up there. A place incidentally, that I never thought in my wildest dreams I’d ever see. We were a very unstylish, struggling Championship club, in a northern Town that wasn’t awash with wealth. The days where a local business man done good were no longer enough to get you to that promised land (or so I thought). We’d need the next step up (a rich Arab Sheik, or a Russian oligarch), but I highly doubted Huddersfield Town would be high on the priority list of Football clubs to take over. I’d come to terms with the fact that Barnsley, Bradford, Hull, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday and United had all graced the Premier League and we probably never would. Keeping company away from the top table the equally unfashionable Doncaster and Rotherham. Then out of nowhere, goodbye Chris Powell, step forward Herr Wagner. New ideas. New style. New approach. The stars aligned and we did it. We’d got there against all odds. Yes it’s been downhill all the way since our second season there, and times are tough for us at the moment. But no one can take those wonderful memories away from us. David Wagner made some errors, yes. Villan no. Hero definitely.
|
|
|
Post by drumriggend on May 5, 2021 21:28:17 GMT 1
Long post alert but difficult to condense all the points Lots of fingers of blame have been pointed at lots of people in the club since our our demise from the Premier League but David Wagner appears to have escaped almost scot-free. Dean Hoyle gave David Wagner his first big break – managing a team in the Championship. I will never forget Dean Hoyle introducing our new manager at the Millbridge Club. It was an inspirational evening and I went home believing that David Wagner was the real deal. He was enthusiastic, down to earth and brought a vision based on fitness, cohesion and Terrier Spirit. In no time at all you could see that it was working. He introduced double training sessions; sessions timed to match kick-off times and even had the players reporting in on a Sunday to reflect on the previous day’s game. He also initially brought in players who epitomised the Terrier Spirit – players who gave their all for the team and the shirt – Schindler, Hefele, Lowe, Kachunga, Quaner – players who when selected; gave everything they’d got. When questioned at the Millbridge Club about ‘big’ clubs in the league he replied ‘We don’t worry about the opposition, let them worry about us’. #Terrier Spirit and #No Limits were the order of the day. The Wagner Revolution had begun and it was a joy to behold. In his first full season we were promoted. It was ahead of the plan and it was incredible. We didn’t score many and we didn’t win games by big margins but it was effective and the team mentality was both positive and strong. Following the unexpected promotion things began to change. We started spending money that was previously unheard of for Huddersfield Town, a net total of £40M committed on fees alone before we’d even kicked a Premier League football including: Laurent Depoitre (£3.5M) Aaron Mooy (£10M Inc. add-ons) Scott Malone £3.3M) Zanka (£3.5M) Mounie (£13m Inc. add-ons) - He was on loan that first season but came with a ‘done deal’ agreement for us to buy for the following season. Ince (£10.5M Inc. add-ons) We got off to a good start but David Wagner then abandoned his #No Limits approach and in most games we set up not to lose – park the bus and get a goal on the break if possible. It got ever tougher to watch and if we conceded, we knew we were almost bound to lose. We played too defensively, we didn't take enough risks, we didn't create many chances, and the aim was mainly to concede as few goals as possible. Joe Lolley was unfortunate with injuries and we never got to see his full potential on a regular basis. He was very keen to play as a no 10 but David Wagner was reluctant to play him there. Instead, he told Dean Hoyle that he badly wanted Alex Pritchard in that role so in Jan 2018 we bought him for a staggering £11M. In turn we effectively gave Joe Lolley away to Forest for a rumoured £1M but also looked after Michael Hefele in the same deal by ensuring that he also got a 3-year deal with Forest. The reality is that we’d have got a lot more out of Lolley than Pritchard if we’d kept him instead of buying Pritchard and, with wages included, we lost somewhere in the region of £15M. Entirely down to David Wagner. David Wagner had seen his stock rise during the promotion season and both he and Dean were aware that some other clubs were showing increasing interest. David Wagner asked for and received large wage rises on three or four separate occasions from when he started. DH knew he had someone special and was keen to please DW by backing him with the players he wanted and the ever larger salary he was demanding. Against the odds we survived that first season in the Premier league and we all looked forward to strengthening the team over the summer. We completed the deal on Mounie We bought Kongolo on a permanent deal for £18M M’Benza was DW’s number one new target of the summer. DH backed him by spending £11.25M on him. (DW told the club's website: "Isaac is a very exciting player and this is a great deal for Huddersfield Town for a player with such ability and potential. You do not play for Belgium at U21 level unless you have some outstanding attributes). We were about to buy Adam Traore and had both the fee (£20M) and wages agreed. At the eleventh hour Traore sustained an injury that was likely to see him out for up to six weeks. DW told DH that he couldn’t wait six weeks and wanted a speedy winger immediately. DW backed him yet again and from the shortlist, DW selected Diakhaby at a cost of £9m DW commented, "He is a very hungry young footballer with a strong desire to succeed in England. Obviously he is still learning and improving at 22 years old, but he already has many of the qualities that we look for in our attacking players. He's a direct player who is comfortable with the ball at his feet and with genuine pace, which suits our style perfectly." Bizarrely that ‘style’ changed shortly after signing both M’Benza and Diakhaby and neither of them went on to be regular starters. By late autumn in that second season things were not going well. We were very defensive and it was getting ever harder to watch. Rock bottom of the league and it seemed that some players were already looking to their agents to find them their next honey pot. The #No Limits and ~Terrier Spirit football had all but vanished. You have to question what impact some of our most expensive and highly paid players had on the rest of the squad who encountered their inflated egos and poor attitudes on a daily basis. These very same expensive and highly paid players that had been chosen by DW who had the final say on all player purchases. Around the same time, news was coming out that DH was critically ill and had been in hospital for some weeks. With hindsight, it appears that nobody was able to step up and fill the huge void caused by his absence. DW had run out of ideas and knew the ship was sinking. At a time when DH was desperately struggling with his health, DW sent him a message via a third party that he wanted out by the end of the season at latest. The same DH who had given him his first big opportunity, had paid him handsomely and had backed him in spending huge amounts of money on fees and wages of players that DW had asked for. When the shit was hitting the fan, it does seem that DW put himself first. I can only imagine what impact all this must have had on DH. He was critically ill in hospital, his football team was relegation bound and DW was jumping ship leaving behind massively expensive contracted players who had no fight in them and no loyalty to the club. The attitude of some of those players continued to be a major problem after DW left as they saw their contracts out whilst enjoying their massive salaries. Remember, DW had the last say on all of them coming into the club. When he left, he left a very expensive burden behind. In summaryHero – No doubts whatsoever. Gaining promotion was an incredible achievement. Villain – For me he has to take a large amount of the blame for the dream turning sour Wot a load of owld shite.. Ower Dave is the greatest turd polisher in the history of footy.. How the foook he toook a squad of journeyman 3rd raters (except for mooy) From bottom of championship to premier LG.. And kept us up again.. Is a miracle upon a miracle.. That fooookin shiny bonced chorizo muncher at citeeh could only dream of such an achievement... Any fooookin townfan who thinks herr wagner is a villain should be drowned in a bucket to prevent the human race from further genetic dilution.. 🤨
|
|
|
Post by 28901 on May 5, 2021 21:44:22 GMT 1
A bit harsh on Loewe, seeing he was an integral reason as to why we were playing Spurs in the first place. Harsh, but in context true. Two mistakes leading to two goals in quick succession I remember. Town were playing well.
|
|
|
Post by Christ in Shades (art) on May 5, 2021 21:46:21 GMT 1
Long post alert but difficult to condense all the points Lots of fingers of blame have been pointed at lots of people in the club since our our demise from the Premier League but David Wagner appears to have escaped almost scot-free. Dean Hoyle gave David Wagner his first big break – managing a team in the Championship. I will never forget Dean Hoyle introducing our new manager at the Millbridge Club. It was an inspirational evening and I went home believing that David Wagner was the real deal. He was enthusiastic, down to earth and brought a vision based on fitness, cohesion and Terrier Spirit. In no time at all you could see that it was working. He introduced double training sessions; sessions timed to match kick-off times and even had the players reporting in on a Sunday to reflect on the previous day’s game. He also initially brought in players who epitomised the Terrier Spirit – players who gave their all for the team and the shirt – Schindler, Hefele, Lowe, Kachunga, Quaner – players who when selected; gave everything they’d got. When questioned at the Millbridge Club about ‘big’ clubs in the league he replied ‘We don’t worry about the opposition, let them worry about us’. #Terrier Spirit and #No Limits were the order of the day. The Wagner Revolution had begun and it was a joy to behold. In his first full season we were promoted. It was ahead of the plan and it was incredible. We didn’t score many and we didn’t win games by big margins but it was effective and the team mentality was both positive and strong. Following the unexpected promotion things began to change. We started spending money that was previously unheard of for Huddersfield Town, a net total of £40M committed on fees alone before we’d even kicked a Premier League football including: Laurent Depoitre (£3.5M) Aaron Mooy (£10M Inc. add-ons) Scott Malone £3.3M) Zanka (£3.5M) Mounie (£13m Inc. add-ons) - He was on loan that first season but came with a ‘done deal’ agreement for us to buy for the following season. Ince (£10.5M Inc. add-ons) We got off to a good start but David Wagner then abandoned his #No Limits approach and in most games we set up not to lose – park the bus and get a goal on the break if possible. It got ever tougher to watch and if we conceded, we knew we were almost bound to lose. We played too defensively, we didn't take enough risks, we didn't create many chances, and the aim was mainly to concede as few goals as possible. Joe Lolley was unfortunate with injuries and we never got to see his full potential on a regular basis. He was very keen to play as a no 10 but David Wagner was reluctant to play him there. Instead, he told Dean Hoyle that he badly wanted Alex Pritchard in that role so in Jan 2018 we bought him for a staggering £11M. In turn we effectively gave Joe Lolley away to Forest for a rumoured £1M but also looked after Michael Hefele in the same deal by ensuring that he also got a 3-year deal with Forest. The reality is that we’d have got a lot more out of Lolley than Pritchard if we’d kept him instead of buying Pritchard and, with wages included, we lost somewhere in the region of £15M. Entirely down to David Wagner. David Wagner had seen his stock rise during the promotion season and both he and Dean were aware that some other clubs were showing increasing interest. David Wagner asked for and received large wage rises on three or four separate occasions from when he started. DH knew he had someone special and was keen to please DW by backing him with the players he wanted and the ever larger salary he was demanding. Against the odds we survived that first season in the Premier league and we all looked forward to strengthening the team over the summer. We completed the deal on Mounie We bought Kongolo on a permanent deal for £18M M’Benza was DW’s number one new target of the summer. DH backed him by spending £11.25M on him. (DW told the club's website: "Isaac is a very exciting player and this is a great deal for Huddersfield Town for a player with such ability and potential. You do not play for Belgium at U21 level unless you have some outstanding attributes). We were about to buy Adam Traore and had both the fee (£20M) and wages agreed. At the eleventh hour Traore sustained an injury that was likely to see him out for up to six weeks. DW told DH that he couldn’t wait six weeks and wanted a speedy winger immediately. DW backed him yet again and from the shortlist, DW selected Diakhaby at a cost of £9m DW commented, "He is a very hungry young footballer with a strong desire to succeed in England. Obviously he is still learning and improving at 22 years old, but he already has many of the qualities that we look for in our attacking players. He's a direct player who is comfortable with the ball at his feet and with genuine pace, which suits our style perfectly." Bizarrely that ‘style’ changed shortly after signing both M’Benza and Diakhaby and neither of them went on to be regular starters. By late autumn in that second season things were not going well. We were very defensive and it was getting ever harder to watch. Rock bottom of the league and it seemed that some players were already looking to their agents to find them their next honey pot. The #No Limits and ~Terrier Spirit football had all but vanished. You have to question what impact some of our most expensive and highly paid players had on the rest of the squad who encountered their inflated egos and poor attitudes on a daily basis. These very same expensive and highly paid players that had been chosen by DW who had the final say on all player purchases. Around the same time, news was coming out that DH was critically ill and had been in hospital for some weeks. With hindsight, it appears that nobody was able to step up and fill the huge void caused by his absence. DW had run out of ideas and knew the ship was sinking. At a time when DH was desperately struggling with his health, DW sent him a message via a third party that he wanted out by the end of the season at latest. The same DH who had given him his first big opportunity, had paid him handsomely and had backed him in spending huge amounts of money on fees and wages of players that DW had asked for. When the shit was hitting the fan, it does seem that DW put himself first. I can only imagine what impact all this must have had on DH. He was critically ill in hospital, his football team was relegation bound and DW was jumping ship leaving behind massively expensive contracted players who had no fight in them and no loyalty to the club. The attitude of some of those players continued to be a major problem after DW left as they saw their contracts out whilst enjoying their massive salaries. Remember, DW had the last say on all of them coming into the club. When he left, he left a very expensive burden behind. In summaryHero – No doubts whatsoever. Gaining promotion was an incredible achievement. Villain – For me he has to take a large amount of the blame for the dream turning sour Wot a load of owld shite.. Ower Dave is the greatest turd polisher in the history of footy.. How the foook he toook a squad of journeyman 3rd raters (except for mooy) From bottom of championship to premier LG.. And kept us up again.. Is a miracle upon a miracle.. That fooookin shiny bonced chorizo muncher at citeeh could only dream of such an achievement... Any fooookin townfan who thinks herr wagner is a villain should be drowned in a bucket to prevent the human race from further genetic dilution.. 🤨 You don't half talk some utter shite lad. You're comparing Guadiola with Wagner? Wagner was a great manager for Town, hero for me, he was let down by shite transfer policy although he did seem to lose the plot in the end. Since he has turned Schalke in to an also ran,make of that what you will.
|
|
|
Post by drumriggend on May 5, 2021 22:00:31 GMT 1
Wot a load of owld shite.. Ower Dave is the greatest turd polisher in the history of footy.. How the foook he toook a squad of journeyman 3rd raters (except for mooy) From bottom of championship to premier LG.. And kept us up again.. Is a miracle upon a miracle.. That fooookin shiny bonced chorizo muncher at citeeh could only dream of such an achievement... Any fooookin townfan who thinks herr wagner is a villain should be drowned in a bucket to prevent the human race from further genetic dilution.. 🤨 You don't half talk some utter shite lad. You're comparing Guadiola with Wagner? Wagner was a great manager for Town, hero for me, he was let down by shite transfer policy although he did seem to lose the plot in the end. Since he has turned Schalke in to an also ran,make of that what you will. Yes I foookin am bro.. Pep inherited a team containing iniesta..xavi..busquets..messi.. Probably the greatest midfield in modern football history.. He then went to already guaranteed to win the LG Bayern Munich.. Then to abu dhabi billionaire citeeh.. Wagner inherited hoggy. Vlp..Tommy smith..Sean scannel..et al.. Guardiola would not have achieved what Wagner did given the same tools.. Could Wagner win the LG at Man City with all their money?? Of course he could.. Your attempts to discredit king David’s achievements are embarrassing to yourself.. At least allow us proper town fans to wallow in our former glories without attempting to sully the memories.. 🍻
|
|
|
Post by Mr Breitside on May 5, 2021 22:07:52 GMT 1
So shortbread..
Your answer is pretty emphatic...
|
|
4 pts
Steve Kindon Terrier
Posts: 1,627
|
Post by 4 pts on May 5, 2021 22:15:31 GMT 1
Wot a load of owld shite.. Ower Dave is the greatest turd polisher in the history of footy.. How the foook he toook a squad of journeyman 3rd raters (except for mooy) From bottom of championship to premier LG.. And kept us up again.. Is a miracle upon a miracle.. That fooookin shiny bonced chorizo muncher at citeeh could only dream of such an achievement... Any fooookin townfan who thinks herr wagner is a villain should be drowned in a bucket to prevent the human race from further genetic dilution.. 🤨 You don't half talk some utter shite lad. You're comparing Guadiola with Wagner? Wagner was a great manager for Town, hero for me, he was let down by shite transfer policy although he did seem to lose the plot in the end. Since he has turned Schalke in to an also ran,make of that what you will. Tbf to Wagner Art, he was on a hiding to nothing with Schalke. They were in massive decline both on and off the pitch with massive debts when he took over. Their decent players were all sold off and he was left with nothing to work with.
|
|
|
Post by terriers321 on May 5, 2021 22:19:44 GMT 1
Managers come and go. How can you blame Wagner for the plight the clubs in now. He left two years ago ffs.
Get out of Hoyles arse.
|
|
|
Post by Mastercracker on May 5, 2021 22:24:02 GMT 1
You don't half talk some utter shite lad. You're comparing Guadiola with Wagner? Wagner was a great manager for Town, hero for me, he was let down by shite transfer policy although he did seem to lose the plot in the end. Since he has turned Schalke in to an also ran,make of that what you will. Tbf to Wagner Art, he was on a hiding to nothing with Schalke. They were in massive decline both on and off the pitch with massive debts when he took over. Their decent players were all sold off and he was left with nothing to work with. It was a stupid job to take, but also probably impossible to turn down. Similar to taking on Villa in the couple of seasons before they went down. Penniless and hopeless.
|
|
|
Post by Detective Boyle on May 5, 2021 22:25:41 GMT 1
Managers come and go. How can you blame Wagner for the plight the clubs in now. He left two years ago ffs. Get out of Hoyles arse. Summed up perfectly.
|
|
4 pts
Steve Kindon Terrier
Posts: 1,627
|
Post by 4 pts on May 5, 2021 22:40:16 GMT 1
You don't half talk some utter shite lad. You're comparing Guadiola with Wagner? Wagner was a great manager for Town, hero for me, he was let down by shite transfer policy although he did seem to lose the plot in the end. Since he has turned Schalke in to an also ran,make of that what you will. Yes I foookin am bro.. Pep inherited a team containing iniesta..xavi..busquets..messi.. Probably the greatest midfield in modern football history.. He then went to already guaranteed to win the LG Bayern Munich.. Then to abu dhabi billionaire citeeh.. Wagner inherited hoggy. Vlp..Tommy smith..Sean scannel..et al.. Guardiola would not have achieved what Wagner did given the same tools.. Could Wagner win the LG at Man City with all their money?? Of course he could.. Your attempts to discredit king David’s achievements are embarrassing to yourself.. At least allow us proper town fans to wallow in our former glories without attempting to sully the memories.. 🍻 Although I do love Wagner, he's no where near Peps levels. As Messi is the complete player, Guardiola is the complete manager. Football played at its best
|
|
|
Post by shawsie on May 5, 2021 22:52:44 GMT 1
Thou shalt not criticise Wagner. Some pretty shit responses to a well constructed opening post for me He is indeed a hero and a villain, and always will be. Defend. Defend. DEFEND,DEFEND,DEFEND. It was shite to watch once he'd lost the magic. Shite to watch? Compared with what - the thrilling stuff we currently play, the excellence brought by siewert, the full throttle attacking style perpetrated by robins, Powell and Grayson. By all means some criticism of wagner may be right and proper but the buck stops with the owner who having been rightly lauded for his excellent stewardship historically, appears to have blown our brains, the prem money and then some on absolute dross...... and then constructed an exit deal to get his money back in full and exit stage left whilst constraining the club at a time when most fans were thinking we have a chance to use parachute money to make a stab at returning to the top flight like Norwich, Watford, Fulham, Bournemouth et al have. I don’t blame DH for wanting his money back .......... but I do question how a man who committed millions to the club he purported to love unconditionally now states on podcast - I will have to get a new hobby. All a bit strange for me, and quite sad.
|
|
boooothy
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,561
|
Post by boooothy on May 5, 2021 23:32:41 GMT 1
Don’t get our league position fool you. Yes we were going down but we’d had some horrendous luck and decisions. We were competitive right till the end of Wagner’s time.
It was only under Seawart where Diabenza, Duhaney, Rowe were playing with Mooy on the bench with Billing, Lossl, Zanka and co that we started getting bummed and became a joke.
|
|
|
Post by El Mel on May 6, 2021 6:41:18 GMT 1
Thou shalt not criticise Wagner. Some pretty shit responses to a well constructed opening post for me He is indeed a hero and a villain, and always will be. Defend. Defend. DEFEND,DEFEND,DEFEND. It was shite to watch once he'd lost the magic. Shite to watch? Compared with what - the thrilling stuff we currently play, the excellence brought by siewert, the full throttle attacking style perpetrated by robins, Powell and Grayson. By all means some criticism of wagner may be right and proper but the buck stops with the owner who having been rightly lauded for his excellent stewardship historically, appears to have blown our brains, the prem money and then some on absolute dross...... and then constructed an exit deal to get his money back in full and exit stage left whilst constraining the club at a time when most fans were thinking we have a chance to use parachute money to make a stab at returning to the top flight like Norwich, Watford, Fulham, Bournemouth et al have. I don’t blame DH for wanting his money back .......... but I do question how a man who committed millions to the club he purported to love unconditionally now states on podcast - I will have to get a new hobby. All a bit strange for me, and quite sad. Dean wasn't involved in the day to day running of the club, ever. He used to do a couple of days a week there. The people that spunked his money were those he employed, and he has to take the rap for that obviously. As for constructing an exit deal, well, that's in the podcast as well isn't it. He already had the choice to get his money back, but that would have removed the interest free debt from him, and put it on the club - obviously we don't know what the potential foreign owner would have achieved, it could have been succesful or it could have been failure, but either way, Dean had the opportunity to get his money back - and people expect him to turn that opportunity down and gift the club and that money onto somebody else. Talking of exit deals, what about Wagners? He'd been managing a football club for a few years, achieved an amazing promotion, and was facing a relegation that most of the football world had predicted. Not a bad first few years as a head coach / manager. What did he do, when the owner - who lets not forget was critically ill, for the 2nd time, after a decade of football club ownership and all that entails. Yep, wagner threw the towel in. "I've had enough, I need a break". Woe is me. Why aren't wall the Wagner fans venting their spleens that he deserted a sinking ship? The club was getting relegated, The owner was literally fighting for his life, and Wagner was thing "Fuck this, I'm off". He could have stayed, on a handsome wage no doubt, but no, 3 seasons of "Heavy metal football", had crushed him. Hero and Villain.
|
|
Amigo
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,824
|
Post by Amigo on May 6, 2021 9:02:58 GMT 1
Hero, without question. The style of play which could be seen from the very first game (even though results weren't great to start with), the atmosphere to levels we haven't seen, the connection with the fans, the matches we kept winning by one goal, the success.
He was inexperienced when he arrived so of course made mistakes and personally I've no idea what effect it all had on his personal life but could very easily imagine it was a completely consuming time which may have had a negative impact on him personally and his family and one of the reasons he wanted a break. It shouldn't take away from what was achieved when he was here though.
Success for clubs like ours come and go very quickly you've just got to enjoy them when they're here, if not it's probably not the right club for you.
|
|
|
Post by ShortbreadPete on May 6, 2021 19:20:10 GMT 1
Maybe the title of my OP shouldn't have included the word 'villain' as some seem to think such a word is bordering on blasphemy. What I was asking was if we are apportioning blame for our current plight, should some of it be shared by David Wagner?
Some interesting and thought provoking responses in and amongst some ill thought out rude ones eg 'Managers come and go. How can you blame Wagner for the plight the clubs in now. He left two years ago ffs. Get out of Hoyles arse'.
I was fully aware that I was lighting a fuse and that I needed to don my tin hat and stand well back for a while.
Some questioned the timimg of my post. I thought it was very timely given that we are shortly to finally see the back of some players who have drained the club financially whilst giving very little in return since they were signed by David Wagner.
I loved the Wagner revolution but I don't think he is blame free when we look at went wrong. Ultimately he put himself first by jumping ship when relegation was looking very likely and DH was in a critical condition in hospital. What loyalty did he show to the owner and the supporters at that point? He was part of the decision making on blowing our budget on players who didn't deliver on their fees and wages.
Some on here absolve DW by putting all the blame on the DOFs. It's an interesting one. If a DOF comes up with a player who is bought at moderate cost, delivers, improves and is sold on at a big profit then he's a genius. If he comes up with a player who turns out to be a dud, suffers with injuries or who has a disruptive attitude, then he's a failure. Many on this board could name very expensive players bought by top level clubs who have turned out to be duds. What was the DOF at West Brom thinking when he recommended Karlan Grant as the right buy at £15 million? Great business by Town.
If you were a manager with an impressive record similar to DW, would you randomly pick a player from a list given to you by your DOF or would you do due diligence first? If you watched video presentations of four players on a shortlist and then selected one as your preffered option do you not share the blame with the DOF if your choice turns out to be a dud and/or has a bad attitude? Never mind the DOF shortlist, your reputation is on the line if you blow the budget on the wrong player(s).
It's not black and white when it comes to apportioning blame and is more like fifty shades of grey. DH trusted and backed DW to the hilt and I think it's fair to question DW's decisions on acquisitions in the Premier League.
We do need to move on and with the last of the expensive deadwood about to leave, now is perhaps a good time.
Over to you Phil
UTT
|
|
|
Post by johntheterrier on May 6, 2021 19:25:01 GMT 1
Long post alert but difficult to condense all the points Lots of fingers of blame have been pointed at lots of people in the club since our our demise from the Premier League but David Wagner appears to have escaped almost scot-free. Dean Hoyle gave David Wagner his first big break – managing a team in the Championship. I will never forget Dean Hoyle introducing our new manager at the Millbridge Club. It was an inspirational evening and I went home believing that David Wagner was the real deal. He was enthusiastic, down to earth and brought a vision based on fitness, cohesion and Terrier Spirit. In no time at all you could see that it was working. He introduced double training sessions; sessions timed to match kick-off times and even had the players reporting in on a Sunday to reflect on the previous day’s game. He also initially brought in players who epitomised the Terrier Spirit – players who gave their all for the team and the shirt – Schindler, Hefele, Lowe, Kachunga, Quaner – players who when selected; gave everything they’d got. When questioned at the Millbridge Club about ‘big’ clubs in the league he replied ‘We don’t worry about the opposition, let them worry about us’. #Terrier Spirit and #No Limits were the order of the day. The Wagner Revolution had begun and it was a joy to behold. In his first full season we were promoted. It was ahead of the plan and it was incredible. We didn’t score many and we didn’t win games by big margins but it was effective and the team mentality was both positive and strong. Following the unexpected promotion things began to change. We started spending money that was previously unheard of for Huddersfield Town, a net total of £40M committed on fees alone before we’d even kicked a Premier League football including: Laurent Depoitre (£3.5M) Aaron Mooy (£10M Inc. add-ons) Scott Malone £3.3M) Zanka (£3.5M) Mounie (£13m Inc. add-ons) - He was on loan that first season but came with a ‘done deal’ agreement for us to buy for the following season. Ince (£10.5M Inc. add-ons) We got off to a good start but David Wagner then abandoned his #No Limits approach and in most games we set up not to lose – park the bus and get a goal on the break if possible. It got ever tougher to watch and if we conceded, we knew we were almost bound to lose. We played too defensively, we didn't take enough risks, we didn't create many chances, and the aim was mainly to concede as few goals as possible. Joe Lolley was unfortunate with injuries and we never got to see his full potential on a regular basis. He was very keen to play as a no 10 but David Wagner was reluctant to play him there. Instead, he told Dean Hoyle that he badly wanted Alex Pritchard in that role so in Jan 2018 we bought him for a staggering £11M. In turn we effectively gave Joe Lolley away to Forest for a rumoured £1M but also looked after Michael Hefele in the same deal by ensuring that he also got a 3-year deal with Forest. The reality is that we’d have got a lot more out of Lolley than Pritchard if we’d kept him instead of buying Pritchard and, with wages included, we lost somewhere in the region of £15M. Entirely down to David Wagner. David Wagner had seen his stock rise during the promotion season and both he and Dean were aware that some other clubs were showing increasing interest. David Wagner asked for and received large wage rises on three or four separate occasions from when he started. DH knew he had someone special and was keen to please DW by backing him with the players he wanted and the ever larger salary he was demanding. Against the odds we survived that first season in the Premier league and we all looked forward to strengthening the team over the summer. We completed the deal on Mounie We bought Kongolo on a permanent deal for £18M M’Benza was DW’s number one new target of the summer. DH backed him by spending £11.25M on him. (DW told the club's website: "Isaac is a very exciting player and this is a great deal for Huddersfield Town for a player with such ability and potential. You do not play for Belgium at U21 level unless you have some outstanding attributes). We were about to buy Adam Traore and had both the fee (£20M) and wages agreed. At the eleventh hour Traore sustained an injury that was likely to see him out for up to six weeks. DW told DH that he couldn’t wait six weeks and wanted a speedy winger immediately. DW backed him yet again and from the shortlist, DW selected Diakhaby at a cost of £9m DW commented, "He is a very hungry young footballer with a strong desire to succeed in England. Obviously he is still learning and improving at 22 years old, but he already has many of the qualities that we look for in our attacking players. He's a direct player who is comfortable with the ball at his feet and with genuine pace, which suits our style perfectly." Bizarrely that ‘style’ changed shortly after signing both M’Benza and Diakhaby and neither of them went on to be regular starters. By late autumn in that second season things were not going well. We were very defensive and it was getting ever harder to watch. Rock bottom of the league and it seemed that some players were already looking to their agents to find them their next honey pot. The #No Limits and ~Terrier Spirit football had all but vanished. You have to question what impact some of our most expensive and highly paid players had on the rest of the squad who encountered their inflated egos and poor attitudes on a daily basis. These very same expensive and highly paid players that had been chosen by DW who had the final say on all player purchases. Around the same time, news was coming out that DH was critically ill and had been in hospital for some weeks. With hindsight, it appears that nobody was able to step up and fill the huge void caused by his absence. DW had run out of ideas and knew the ship was sinking. At a time when DH was desperately struggling with his health, DW sent him a message via a third party that he wanted out by the end of the season at latest. The same DH who had given him his first big opportunity, had paid him handsomely and had backed him in spending huge amounts of money on fees and wages of players that DW had asked for. When the shit was hitting the fan, it does seem that DW put himself first. I can only imagine what impact all this must have had on DH. He was critically ill in hospital, his football team was relegation bound and DW was jumping ship leaving behind massively expensive contracted players who had no fight in them and no loyalty to the club. The attitude of some of those players continued to be a major problem after DW left as they saw their contracts out whilst enjoying their massive salaries. Remember, DW had the last say on all of them coming into the club. When he left, he left a very expensive burden behind. In summaryHero – No doubts whatsoever. Gaining promotion was an incredible achievement. Villain – For me he has to take a large amount of the blame for the dream turning sour Wot a load of owld shite.. Ower Dave is the greatest turd polisher in the history of footy.. How the foook he toook a squad of journeyman 3rd raters (except for mooy) From bottom of championship to premier LG.. And kept us up again.. Is a miracle upon a miracle.. That fooookin shiny bonced chorizo muncher at citeeh could only dream of such an achievement... Any fooookin townfan who thinks herr wagner is a villain should be drowned in a bucket to prevent the human race from further genetic dilution.. 🤨 An absolute top quality post that one. Take a bow sir. 👍🤣🤣🤣
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 21:44:57 GMT 1
Long post alert but difficult to condense all the points Lots of fingers of blame have been pointed at lots of people in the club since our our demise from the Premier League but David Wagner appears to have escaped almost scot-free. Dean Hoyle gave David Wagner his first big break – managing a team in the Championship. I will never forget Dean Hoyle introducing our new manager at the Millbridge Club. It was an inspirational evening and I went home believing that David Wagner was the real deal. He was enthusiastic, down to earth and brought a vision based on fitness, cohesion and Terrier Spirit. In no time at all you could see that it was working. He introduced double training sessions; sessions timed to match kick-off times and even had the players reporting in on a Sunday to reflect on the previous day’s game. He also initially brought in players who epitomised the Terrier Spirit – players who gave their all for the team and the shirt – Schindler, Hefele, Lowe, Kachunga, Quaner – players who when selected; gave everything they’d got. When questioned at the Millbridge Club about ‘big’ clubs in the league he replied ‘We don’t worry about the opposition, let them worry about us’. #Terrier Spirit and #No Limits were the order of the day. The Wagner Revolution had begun and it was a joy to behold. In his first full season we were promoted. It was ahead of the plan and it was incredible. We didn’t score many and we didn’t win games by big margins but it was effective and the team mentality was both positive and strong. Following the unexpected promotion things began to change. We started spending money that was previously unheard of for Huddersfield Town, a net total of £40M committed on fees alone before we’d even kicked a Premier League football including: Laurent Depoitre (£3.5M) Aaron Mooy (£10M Inc. add-ons) Scott Malone £3.3M) Zanka (£3.5M) Mounie (£13m Inc. add-ons) - He was on loan that first season but came with a ‘done deal’ agreement for us to buy for the following season. Ince (£10.5M Inc. add-ons) We got off to a good start but David Wagner then abandoned his #No Limits approach and in most games we set up not to lose – park the bus and get a goal on the break if possible. It got ever tougher to watch and if we conceded, we knew we were almost bound to lose. We played too defensively, we didn't take enough risks, we didn't create many chances, and the aim was mainly to concede as few goals as possible. Joe Lolley was unfortunate with injuries and we never got to see his full potential on a regular basis. He was very keen to play as a no 10 but David Wagner was reluctant to play him there. Instead, he told Dean Hoyle that he badly wanted Alex Pritchard in that role so in Jan 2018 we bought him for a staggering £11M. In turn we effectively gave Joe Lolley away to Forest for a rumoured £1M but also looked after Michael Hefele in the same deal by ensuring that he also got a 3-year deal with Forest. The reality is that we’d have got a lot more out of Lolley than Pritchard if we’d kept him instead of buying Pritchard and, with wages included, we lost somewhere in the region of £15M. Entirely down to David Wagner. David Wagner had seen his stock rise during the promotion season and both he and Dean were aware that some other clubs were showing increasing interest. David Wagner asked for and received large wage rises on three or four separate occasions from when he started. DH knew he had someone special and was keen to please DW by backing him with the players he wanted and the ever larger salary he was demanding. Against the odds we survived that first season in the Premier league and we all looked forward to strengthening the team over the summer. We completed the deal on Mounie We bought Kongolo on a permanent deal for £18M M’Benza was DW’s number one new target of the summer. DH backed him by spending £11.25M on him. (DW told the club's website: "Isaac is a very exciting player and this is a great deal for Huddersfield Town for a player with such ability and potential. You do not play for Belgium at U21 level unless you have some outstanding attributes). We were about to buy Adam Traore and had both the fee (£20M) and wages agreed. At the eleventh hour Traore sustained an injury that was likely to see him out for up to six weeks. DW told DH that he couldn’t wait six weeks and wanted a speedy winger immediately. DW backed him yet again and from the shortlist, DW selected Diakhaby at a cost of £9m DW commented, "He is a very hungry young footballer with a strong desire to succeed in England. Obviously he is still learning and improving at 22 years old, but he already has many of the qualities that we look for in our attacking players. He's a direct player who is comfortable with the ball at his feet and with genuine pace, which suits our style perfectly." Bizarrely that ‘style’ changed shortly after signing both M’Benza and Diakhaby and neither of them went on to be regular starters. By late autumn in that second season things were not going well. We were very defensive and it was getting ever harder to watch. bottom of the league and it seemed that some players were already looking to their agents to find them their next honey pot. The #No Limits and ~Terrier Spirit football had all but vanished. You have to question what impact some of our most expensive and highly paid players had on the rest of the squad who encountered their inflated egos and poor attitudes on a daily basis. These very same expensive and highly paid players that had been chosen by DW who had the final say on all player purchases. Around the same time, news was coming out that DH was critically ill and had been in hospital for some weeks. With hindsight, it appears that nobody was able to step up and fill the huge void caused by his absence. DW had run out of ideas and knew the ship was sinking. At a time when DH was desperately struggling with his health, DW sent him a message via a third party that he wanted out by the end of the season at latest. The same DH who had given him his first big opportunity, had paid him handsomely and had backed him in spending huge amounts of money on fees and wages of players that DW had asked for. When the shit was hitting the fan, it does seem that DW put himself first. I can only imagine what impact all this must have had on DH. He was critically ill in hospital, his football team was relegation bound and DW was jumping ship leaving behind massively expensive contracted players who had no fight in them and no loyalty to the club. The attitude of some of those players continued to be a major problem after DW left as they saw their contracts out whilst enjoying their massive salaries. Remember, DW had the last say on all of them coming into the club. When he left, he left a very expensive burden behind. In summaryHero – No doubts whatsoever. Gaining promotion was an incredible achievement. Villain – For me he has to take a large amount of the blame for the dream turning sour You obviously did not go to Wolves away on 25 November 2018 one of Town's finest performances in the PL where we looked a very decent side added to which DW did not 'jump ship' as you say. He informed the club that he wanted to leave at the end of that season but the club decided that it was best for him to leave when he did... enter Martin from Wakefield. FWIW in over 50 years supporting this club DW gave me and indeed many others of my age some of our most glorious moments ever. Blaming him for our present predicament is frankly shameful.....
|
|