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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Jun 4, 2021 18:08:03 GMT 1
I’m not even going to worry anymore what Town’s financial situation is. It’s difficult to make real sense of accounts due to the vagueness and ambiguity of what’s itemised, and finances in football are so ridiculous anyway, so why worry about something that is completely out of our control? It’s up to the clubs and football in general to sort out the mess. Probably a forlorn hope, anyway.
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Post by impact on Jun 4, 2021 18:30:49 GMT 1
I’m not even going to worry anymore what Town’s financial situation is. It’s difficult to make real sense of accounts due to the vagueness and ambiguity of what’s itemised, and finances in football are so ridiculous anyway, so why worry about something that is completely out of our control? It’s up to the clubs and football in general to sort out the mess. Probably a forlorn hope, anyway. Picking the team is entirely out of our control but we worry ourselves about that! |
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Jun 4, 2021 18:36:48 GMT 1
I’m not even going to worry anymore what Town’s financial situation is. It’s difficult to make real sense of accounts due to the vagueness and ambiguity of what’s itemised, and finances in football are so ridiculous anyway, so why worry about something that is completely out of our control? It’s up to the clubs and football in general to sort out the mess. Probably a forlorn hope, anyway. Picking the team is entirely out of our control but we worry ourselves about that! True, but that’s different. We go to games to watch so-called footballers to entertain and make us happy (hopefully) so we feel the need to engage with the team. We don’t go to engage with the accounts. |
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Post by impact on Jun 4, 2021 18:38:12 GMT 1
Picking the team is entirely out of our control but we worry ourselves about that! True, but that’s different. We go to games to watch so-called footballers to entertain and make us happy (hopefully) so we feel the need to engage with the team. We don’t go to engage with the accounts. I'm not sure many of us thought that in 2003 when we were financially screwed. |
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Jun 4, 2021 18:44:01 GMT 1
True, but that’s different. We go to games to watch so-called footballers to entertain and make us happy (hopefully) so we feel the need to engage with the team. We don’t go to engage with the accounts. I'm not sure many of us thought that in 2003 when we were financially screwed. True, I donated £10k. Obviously that was a crisis, and the clubs’ existence was at stake, so I don’t think you can compare that situation with the “financial normality” of Town’s current situation, as best we understand it. |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Jun 4, 2021 18:46:07 GMT 1
Those numbers are further proof of what an absolutely god awful shambles we made of the premier league money.
How could any serious businessman and town fan preside over such a monumental fuck up.
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Post by tomal2 on Jun 4, 2021 18:46:24 GMT 1
So despite the parachute payments, and the profit on player sales, and the reduced wage bill, we still lost £8M in our first year back in the championship? Am I interpreting the accounts correctly there?
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Post by impact on Jun 4, 2021 18:55:45 GMT 1
So despite the parachute payments, and the profit on player sales, and the reduced wage bill, we still lost £8M in our first year back in the championship? Am I interpreting the accounts correctly there? Yes but don't read too much into it. It includes amortisation for Premier league signings which will have (or should have) been earmarked to pay with Premier league money. |
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Post by Teddington Ted on Jun 4, 2021 19:18:23 GMT 1
I'm not sure many of us thought that in 2003 when we were financially screwed. True, I donated £10k. Obviously that was a crisis, and the clubs’ existence was at stake, so I don’t think you can compare that situation with the “financial normality” of Town’s current situation, as best we understand it. Blimey, I’d want a seat on the board for that! |
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Post by Teddington Ted on Jun 4, 2021 19:21:51 GMT 1
I’m not even going to worry anymore what Town’s financial situation is. It’s difficult to make real sense of accounts due to the vagueness and ambiguity of what’s itemised, and finances in football are so ridiculous anyway, so why worry about something that is completely out of our control? It’s up to the clubs and football in general to sort out the mess. Probably a forlorn hope, anyway. I agree. The fans know about 5% of the facts an average of 18 months after they actually happen. We worry about debt and wages yet have no idea of the inner workings. All we can do is trust those in charge with steering the ship. |
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Jun 4, 2021 19:22:14 GMT 1
True, I donated £10k. Obviously that was a crisis, and the clubs’ existence was at stake, so I don’t think you can compare that situation with the “financial normality” of Town’s current situation, as best we understand it. Blimey, I’d want a seat on the board for that! My wife took some persuading it was OK to do it! I don’t think I’d have wanted the stress of any more financial involvement then, and definitely not nowadays! |
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Post by morleyterrier on Jun 5, 2021 7:29:20 GMT 1
Interest on loans £80k a week, presumably that was the NatWest then?. Or were we paying our previous owner interest on top or any what ended up being loans?.
The stats I am interest in are how much Phil paid for the Club and where that money came from.
I also want to know how aggressive the repayments to Hoyle were and what lump sums he may have taken out (and Phil for that matter).
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Post by colnevalleyblue on Jun 5, 2021 7:38:52 GMT 1
Interest on loans £80k a week, presumably that was the NatWest then?. Or were we paying our previous owner interest on top or any what ended up being loans?. The stats I am interest in are how much Phil paid for the Club and where that money came from. I also want to know how aggressive the repayments to Hoyle were and what lump sums he may have taken out (and Phil for that matter). Hoyle loan is stated as interest free. |
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Post by morleyterrier on Jun 5, 2021 7:42:26 GMT 1
Interest on loans £80k a week, presumably that was the NatWest then?. Or were we paying our previous owner interest on top or any what ended up being loans?. The stats I am interest in are how much Phil paid for the Club and where that money came from. I also want to know how aggressive the repayments to Hoyle were and what lump sums he may have taken out (and Phil for that matter). Hoyle loan is stated as interest free. Thanks Colnevalley, how much was the loan?. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 7:50:52 GMT 1
Interest on loans £80k a week, presumably that was the NatWest then?. Or were we paying our previous owner interest on top or any what ended up being loans?. The stats I am interest in are how much Phil paid for the Club and where that money came from. I also want to know how aggressive the repayments to Hoyle were and what lump sums he may have taken out (and Phil for that matter). Every question you want answered is right there, in this thread, posted within the last 24 hours. |
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Post by morleyterrier on Jun 5, 2021 7:58:37 GMT 1
Interest on loans £80k a week, presumably that was the NatWest then?. Or were we paying our previous owner interest on top or any what ended up being loans?. The stats I am interest in are how much Phil paid for the Club and where that money came from. I also want to know how aggressive the repayments to Hoyle were and what lump sums he may have taken out (and Phil for that matter). Every question you want answered is right there, in this thread, posted within the last 24 hours. Sound, thanks, will have a read through!. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 8:03:27 GMT 1
Every question you want answered is right there, in this thread, posted within the last 24 hours. Sound, thanks, will have a read through!. I think the Town Finances thread is more thorough. |
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Post by morleyterrier on Jun 5, 2021 8:11:34 GMT 1
Sound, thanks, will have a read through!. I think the Town Finances thread is more thorough. Just been on it thanks and having a look through. |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Jun 5, 2021 8:55:23 GMT 1
25 pages at a guess. Maybe the Euros will deflate interest in this thread.
By the time it closes we'll have see-sawed from being able to buy Messi, to having to utilise the car park attendants as emergency midfielders...
I saw a headline on BBC sport yesterday, about Glazer being involved in a Man Utd fans engagement shindig, for the first time in 15 yrs.
We really need to be careful what we wish for sometimes.
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Post by smj1 on Jun 5, 2021 10:00:35 GMT 1
It was some drinks company last year who didn't pay. I think the increase in loans will be Mooy. Agree that the accounts seem ok (for football anyway). Hoyle's loan repayments have been extended as people were asking for and we have stabilised with player sales this year. I don't buy the argument from some that we are skint. Drinks company ? John Smith’s ? A few weeks ago Sean Jarvis posted on here and said unlike some other Online Betting Sponsors that OPE had paid upfront but it seems to me to lose £1M from a drinks company reeks of being “careless” ? Yep OPE paid up front - so not them... Cocofuzion was circa 30k - so wasn’t a single ‘rogue’ sponsor. Nor 100% sure... but may have been some bad debt against Bury. |
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Post by smj1 on Jun 5, 2021 10:03:04 GMT 1
Drinks company ? John Smith’s ? A few weeks ago Sean Jarvis posted on here and said unlike some other Online Betting Sponsors that OPE had paid upfront but it seems to me to lose £1M from a drinks company reeks of being “careless” ? Word is our old commercial team would sell to anybody, payment would look after itself. Word is we didn’t do a bad job 😉😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 13:43:44 GMT 1
Drinks company ? John Smith’s ? A few weeks ago Sean Jarvis posted on here and said unlike some other Online Betting Sponsors that OPE had paid upfront but it seems to me to lose £1M from a drinks company reeks of being “careless” ? Yep OPE paid up front - so not them... Cocofuzion was circa 30k - so wasn’t a single ‘rogue’ sponsor. Nor 100% sure... but may have been some bad debt against Bury. Bury certainly didn't pay us a transfer fee that we're owed for Phil Billing yet 🤷♂️😳😂 |
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Post by Mecha Corte on Jun 5, 2021 14:25:53 GMT 1
Drinks company ? John Smith’s ? A few weeks ago Sean Jarvis posted on here and said unlike some other Online Betting Sponsors that OPE had paid upfront but it seems to me to lose £1M from a drinks company reeks of being “careless” ? Yep OPE paid up front - so not them... Cocofuzion was circa 30k - so wasn’t a single ‘rogue’ sponsor. Nor 100% sure... but may have been some bad debt against Bury. 30k to be the official “official hydration partner of HTFC” sounds more reasonable than the £1M stated earlier - so when the claim that a drinks company failed to pay £1M are we now saying that’s not the case and 99%+ of the missing money is from Bury FC ? For what ? It’s not an insignificant amount for a bottom end PL but for a 3rd / 4th tier club it’s a huge amount and how can it be listed as a drinks company in the accounts, isn’t that fraud ? (PS I’m not having a dig at you, I appreciate your input I’m just baffled. PPS We have met briefly, many years ago before kick off at Darlington under the stands, I introduced you to a friend of mine, a Hartlepool fan, who had a chat with you, sadly Alzheimer’s has ended his attending any games now.) |
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Post by smj1 on Jun 6, 2021 9:04:59 GMT 1
Yep OPE paid up front - so not them... Cocofuzion was circa 30k - so wasn’t a single ‘rogue’ sponsor. Nor 100% sure... but may have been some bad debt against Bury. 30k to be the official “official hydration partner of HTFC” sounds more reasonable than the £1M stated earlier - so when the claim that a drinks company failed to pay £1M are we now saying that’s not the case and 99%+ of the missing money is from Bury FC ? For what ? It’s not an insignificant amount for a bottom end PL but for a 3rd / 4th tier club it’s a huge amount and how can it be listed as a drinks company in the accounts, isn’t that fraud ? (PS I’m not having a dig at you, I appreciate your input I’m just baffled. PPS We have met briefly, many years ago before kick off at Darlington under the stands, I introduced you to a friend of mine, a Hartlepool fan, who had a chat with you, sadly Alzheimer’s has ended his attending any games now.) Firstly and most importantly I am sorry to hear about your friend, such a horrible disease and sad when it gets to the stage you have explained. Having lost my mum to dementia is horrible to see the demise in friends and family. As for the figures, yep it’s a large number and am unsure what it’s made up of, certainly not a single drinks company though. I suspect it will be a combination of a number of things including the Bury debt. I know individuals at the Club monitor the site perhaps they can explain or it is asked at a future q and a . Just for the record, there seems to be some negative feeling towards OPE, so to explain, whilst we may not be a fan of their industry, their owner was a great individual who paid everything up front in full when the contract stipulated and was a genuine person who cared about Town. He actually spent above and beyond his contract. I genuinely found most businesses we dealt with to be very honourable and supportive of the Club. And a lot of them were supportive of the Club when we were in League 1 and began the new era. Commercially where we started to where we ended up was progressive (and something I am proud of) For me however, now as a fan, it’s now how the Club goes forwards. The new custodians will do it their way and will inevitably be different. UTT (and Leicestershire CCC now too 😉🦊) |
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on Jun 6, 2021 9:31:46 GMT 1
Surely Bury didnt agree to sign Harry Bunn £1 million
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Post by Mecha Corte on Jun 6, 2021 10:30:07 GMT 1
30k to be the official “official hydration partner of HTFC” sounds more reasonable than the £1M stated earlier - so when the claim that a drinks company failed to pay £1M are we now saying that’s not the case and 99%+ of the missing money is from Bury FC ? For what ? It’s not an insignificant amount for a bottom end PL but for a 3rd / 4th tier club it’s a huge amount and how can it be listed as a drinks company in the accounts, isn’t that fraud ? (PS I’m not having a dig at you, I appreciate your input I’m just baffled. PPS We have met briefly, many years ago before kick off at Darlington under the stands, I introduced you to a friend of mine, a Hartlepool fan, who had a chat with you, sadly Alzheimer’s has ended his attending any games now.) Firstly and most importantly I am sorry to hear about your friend, such a horrible disease and sad when it gets to the stage you have explained. Having lost my mum to dementia is horrible to see the demise in friends and family. As for the figures, yep it’s a large number and am unsure what it’s made up of, certainly not a single drinks company though. I suspect it will be a combination of a number of things including the Bury debt. I know individuals at the Club monitor the site perhaps they can explain or it is asked at a future q and a . Just for the record, there seems to be some negative feeling towards OPE, so to explain, whilst we may not be a fan of their industry, their owner was a great individual who paid everything up front in full when the contract stipulated and was a genuine person who cared about Town. He actually spent above and beyond his contract. I genuinely found most businesses we dealt with to be very honourable and supportive of the Club. And a lot of them were supportive of the Club when we were in League 1 and began the new era. Commercially where we started to where we ended up was progressive (and something I am proud of) For me however, now as a fan, it’s now how the Club goes forwards. The new custodians will do it their way and will inevitably be different. UTT (and Leicestershire CCC now too 😉🦊) Again, thanks for your reply, yes dementia is a truly awful disease and in many ways I think worse for the family and friends than the actual victim but that’s probably for another thread. As for the Bury debt, I can’t be the only one who didn’t ( still doesn’t ) have the foggiest as to what’s involved there, while I don’t think there’s any need by the club to go into every nut and bolt with the fans I find it odd that it’s now coming to light in this way ? With regards to OPE my own personal view is firstly I don’t think it’s good that any club has a sponsor on the shirt that kids are not allowed to have on theirs, I understand that these companies are usually the ones that are prepared to pay the most but that doesn’t alter my view. Secondly, again just my opinion but it felt that having reached the PL the club seemed to embrace a Chinese online gambling firm over everyone else we had dealt with in the past, then (like some of the “new fans” picked up at the same time )when we get relegated the PL newcomers aren’t interested anymore and the club has to turn their attention back to the old sponsors and fans that are now feeling justifiably disgruntled because they were ignored. That’s my feelings anyway. Good luck to you and LCCC but of course only so far as to finish runners up behind Yorkshire. |
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Post by andyeastleake on Jun 6, 2021 15:20:32 GMT 1
(NB Warning some may be bored rigid by the following).
Not sure if this should go on the Finances thread or here.
Directors loans have been presented in a strange manner (that I can't recall ever seeing before) and I'm not sure why, grateful if anyone can make a suggestion.
Figures in round millions only for ease
As Iffy's post states, £34m was still owed to Dean Hoyle under the repayment schedule. However, in the accounts other loans only total £31 million.
The reason for this is (sort of partly) explained in note 17 & note 20.
From note 17 "The loan has started to be repaid during the current year and no interest is to be charged on the loan, therefore this is discounted as a financing transaction at 5.5%".
In reserves (note 20), "The difference between the present value of the Creditor and the amount ultimately repayable is treated as a capital contribution in equity and is included in other reserves".
Basically what this means is that although the club owes DH £34m it will not be shown as that in the "main" accounts (Odd?), but as a lower figure reflecting no interest. The amount we've "gained" from this presentation can't be lost in the accounts but is shown in other reserves (presumably reducing when repaid?).
The value in reserves is £7m.
Thus you'd anticipate other loans should be £45m less £11m repaid less £7m gained through the odd presentation i.e. £27m.
But they're not they are £31m. What is the £4m? The only thing I can imagine is loans from PH?
However I can't see any real reason why you'd want to present the information like this other than to simply muddy the waters and (sort of) "hide" figures.
Any thoughts / ideas?
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by Sparrow on Jun 6, 2021 16:12:57 GMT 1
[/quote]Firstly and most importantly I am sorry to hear about your friend, such a horrible disease and sad when it gets to the stage you have explained. Having lost my mum to dementia is horrible to see the demise in friends and family.
As for the figures, yep it’s a large number and am unsure what it’s made up of, certainly not a single drinks company though. I suspect it will be a combination of a number of things including the Bury debt. I know individuals at the Club monitor the site perhaps they can explain or it is asked at a future q and a .
Just for the record, there seems to be some negative feeling towards OPE, so to explain, whilst we may not be a fan of their industry, their owner was a great individual who paid everything up front in full when the contract stipulated and was a genuine person who cared about Town. He actually spent above and beyond his contract.
I genuinely found most businesses we dealt with to be very honourable and supportive of the Club. And a lot of them were supportive of the Club when we were in League 1 and began the new era. Commercially where we started to where we ended up was progressive (and something I am proud of)
For me however, now as a fan, it’s now how the Club goes forwards. The new custodians will do it their way and will inevitably be different.
UTT (and Leicestershire CCC now too 😉🦊) [/quote]
You can take the man out of Town, but not Town out of the man. UTT
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Post by tockyterrier on Jun 6, 2021 20:45:34 GMT 1
But Billing's transfer etc. is paid over the life of their contract. Therefore it will be 'booked' as we get the payments. No it isn't in the accounts. Sales are done at the point of sale. The fees are usually spread over 3 years to actually be paid, but that 22m is players who we sold in the 19/20 accounting period. I'm pretty sure you are wrong on this. It might show up as trading profit in terms of player registrations. But i'm sure the annual declared income/expenditure can only be based on when it is actually received/spent. |
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Post by andyeastleake on Jun 6, 2021 22:11:20 GMT 1
No it isn't in the accounts. Sales are done at the point of sale. The fees are usually spread over 3 years to actually be paid, but that 22m is players who we sold in the 19/20 accounting period. I'm pretty sure you are wrong on this. It might show up as trading profit in terms of player registrations. But i'm sure the annual declared income/expenditure can only be based on when it is actually received/spent. I'm not 100% sure I understand your post (& the reference to income/expenditure - which is generally an alternate description of P&L), but I'd suggest Impact is correct. The postings relating to the basic transfer hit the P&L at the point the sale is made and if there are phased payments this is reflected in Debtors. Conditional payments will be reflected in the P&L when they are considered "certain". PS Tax treatment may differ but TBH paying any corporation tax looks a looooooong way away ATM. |
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