|
Post by Terrier Ramone on Aug 26, 2021 17:29:27 GMT 1
I rate Vallejo but to compare him to Mooy, at this point, is just ridiculous, you're comparing a promising, decent passing forward but poor defensive midfielder that has been here a while & is nowhere near a regular in the team, with the best player we've had in 45 years.
|
|
|
Post by York Terrier on Aug 26, 2021 19:33:09 GMT 1
I can’t believe you’ve just compared Mooy and Vallejo??? A PL player and a bench player in the Championship 🤔 Like Mooy he’s liable to silly little mess ups? I know Mooy wasn’t perfect but that’ll do me. Please drop in "Pogba" or "Michael Flynn" in place of "Mooy" in my narrative if you like. It still holds true to what I'm putting across and doesn't tarnish the delicate pedestal you have Mooy on which is causing your irrational reaction! You need to get off the wacky Backy sir I have been watching Town since 1962 and Aron Mooy is the Best midfielder we have had since Jimmy Nick (and probably better ) in fact I can only think of Frank Worthington and Trevor Cherry who have been better in my time of watching. Vallejo is a Honda 50 compared to Mooy
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2021 20:22:10 GMT 1
Please drop in "Pogba" or "Michael Flynn" in place of "Mooy" in my narrative if you like. It still holds true to what I'm putting across and doesn't tarnish the delicate pedestal you have Mooy on which is causing your irrational reaction! You need to get off the wacky Backy sir I have been watching Town since 1962 and Aron Mooy is the Best midfielder we have had since Jimmy Nick (and probably better ) in fact I can only think of Frank Worthington and Trevor Cherry who have been better in my time of watching. Vallejo is a Honda 50 compared to Mooy Why on earth are you and the other loons seemingly suggesting that I'm of the opinion Vallejo is better than Mooy?! They're comparable, they play in a broadly similar position, and like Mooy we're trying to lever them into a team that also features Hogg...because the answer to the question "Vallejo over Hogg" is "Vallejo PLUS Hogg", just as the most productive answer previously was "Mooy PLUS Hogg".
|
|
|
Post by York Terrier on Aug 26, 2021 21:42:55 GMT 1
Me and the other loons have read your posts ( I think you should check again what you have posted ) but only when the effects of the Wacky Backy have worn off Vallejo and Hogg get the game time that the Manager see fit,and Vallejo spends most of the season on the bench ( which is why his nickname is the judge) Hogg plays every game. AM is 10 times the player Vallejo will ever be so there can be no serious comparison. Finally (I hope) when we are watching Vallejo you see a Bentley I see a Seat at best ( I think they are made in Spain)
|
|
|
Post by overtonterrierspirit on Aug 26, 2021 22:47:50 GMT 1
That’s August’s Hoggy bashing almost out of the way. Tune in soon for September’s.
I’d wager that Hogg is always the first name on Carlos’s team sheet every week - just like all of his previous managers.
Best defensive midfielder in the league.
|
|
|
Post by thrice on Aug 26, 2021 23:08:40 GMT 1
Must admit he is on my shite list.
|
|
|
Post by Convictatthemac on Aug 27, 2021 8:33:06 GMT 1
Sure let’s compare. Passing - Mooy has a great range, Vallejo has a good range. Tight spaces - Mooy was excellent in tight spaces Vallejo is ok Tackling- Mooy loved a tackle, Vallejo has he made one? Goals - Mooy scored crucial goals for us Vallejo has he scored for us? Errors - Mooy was consistently a good player one of his best attributes, Vallejo yeah he slipped it happens but he makes numerous defensive errors Box to box - Mooy covered the whole pitch, Vallejo gets nose bleeds crossing the halfway line unless it’s a corner. Football brain- Mooy(just Mooy) I could go on but why, they aren’t comparable. There you go, you've compared...see, it is possible after all 🤷♂️ My opinion is some of your statements are rose tinted, but fair enough they are your opinions, and I certainly accept them. Just to point out where I'm coming from, compare the raw stats of Vallejo v Mooy in the games where they played a full 90minutes for us at home versus Everton (a bit of a flawed comparison, but a comparison). The data is VERY similar. I’m glad you realise it’s a flawed comparison, a PL match v a Carabao Cup match, which is what I believe you are doing with Mooy and Vallejo, a flawed comparison. What you originally wrote was: “He's basically Aaron Mooy but even more of a luxury player, he seems to just find playing football very easy, its like watching a Bentley purring through the game.” Since everyone is allowed an opinion which you quite rightly point out, I disagree with you that “he’s basically Aaron Mooy” and I believe it’s a flawed comparison. Anyway, we aren’t going to agree here, so I’m happy to move along.
|
|
|
Post by JonsonClarkParis on Aug 27, 2021 8:47:52 GMT 1
Vallejo over Hogg at home yes, away from home start hoggy
|
|
|
Post by araucaria on Aug 27, 2021 10:05:59 GMT 1
I have been convinced that Hoggy is a huge part of our problems for a long time now. We all know how good he is off the ball but - on the ball he is just so clunky - and always has been if we're honest. He cannot play Carlos's style of football where everything has to go through that defensive midfielder - Vallejo showed us exactly how it should be done last night. Agreed, we are weaker defensively with Vallejo than Hogg but I'm prepared to live with that to watch the kind of team football we saw last night, where Vallejo is central to everything. Hoggy was part of a great time in our recent history but he has been the one permanent feature in our horrible demise - during which we have looked increasingly static and pedestrian - and sadly for such a great servant he is now a major part of the problem. And yet since we got relegated, our record without Hogg is P21 W3 D4 L14. Or to put it another way we average 0.6ppg without Hogg, and 1.2ppg with him (or equivalent as it includes some cup games). We still don't have anyone who can replace his defensive qualities. Vallejo can't play the holding role on his own as he doesn't read the game close to quickly enough. I'd have been more selective in my analysis, Impact. Ignore 2019-20, when we won the three games without Hoggy (and his absence was covered by a guy who didn't convince many at the time but who now plays for Chelsea). Last season he missed 9 league games - just as he did in the season before - and we drew 3 and lost 6. [The last time we won without him was the 4-0 v Charlton, so perhaps it's something to do with crowds].
|
|
|
Post by araucaria on Aug 27, 2021 10:24:43 GMT 1
Vallejo over Hogg at home yes, away from home start hoggy So far in his short Town career, Vallejo has started only once when we won a match - Swansea at home - and in his eight starts, nine if you include Everton, without Hogg beside him, we haven't yet won one. This doesn't mean to say that replacing Hogg with Vallejo from now on means this trend will continue, but if I was Carlos and I've yet to win a game without Hogg....[And didn't Carlos replace Vallejo with High at half-time against Fulham admitting that he got it wrong?]
|
|
|
Post by Million Dollar Babies on Aug 28, 2021 17:10:31 GMT 1
Class today
|
|
|
Post by impact on Aug 28, 2021 17:46:30 GMT 1
3rd goal (I think) shows his worth. Knows exactly where to be, cuts out the pass, little ball to LOB and we're away.
|
|
|
Post by overtonterrierspirit on Aug 28, 2021 20:01:51 GMT 1
Some of us never ever doubt Jonathan Hogg.
Thankfully I’m one of them.
Top class today.
|
|
|
Post by kennyk2 on Aug 28, 2021 20:10:07 GMT 1
Hoggy was the consistent B+, but perhaps I am a bit harsh and he deserves an A-.
|
|
|
Post by Captainslapper on Aug 29, 2021 17:40:18 GMT 1
Never understand why even after all this time and after he's proved himself to be so key to the team playing well so many times, that there's still this weird urge some have to ditch him. He'll have the odd bad game, which players don't, but he's still pretty much the first name on the team sheet for me.
Back to his best yesterday. Just always right there where he needed too be and always making himself available to receive the ball and circulate it.
I dont mind Valejo , but dropping Hogg for him?? Lets drop Sorba Thomas to give Aarons a game whilst we're at it!
|
|
|
Post by bluesandtwos on Aug 29, 2021 17:51:31 GMT 1
We are not a top end Premiership team. We do not have defensive midfielders who can regularly spray passes accurately all over the pitch. What we have is a solid defensive unit of which Hogg is a key part, and also our captain. The ball Colwill played out to Thomas for the first goal yesterday is the sort of consistent quality we can probably only borrow. Hogg does what he does well and it is a hugely important part of how we play.
|
|
|
Post by richhtfc on Aug 29, 2021 18:25:52 GMT 1
I don’t think anyone could deny Hogg’s importance to the team but…. Carlos needs to recognise better when he’s having a bad game and give Vallejo a chance IMO.
He was great yesterday, it was almost like he’d read some of the criticism because he was much more positive with his play, but he isn’t always and we need proper competition for every position on the pitch..
|
|
|
Post by sykeylad on Aug 29, 2021 19:07:03 GMT 1
Isn't Scotty High more the likely successor to Hoggy than Vallejo?
|
|
|
Post by ACW on Aug 29, 2021 19:12:21 GMT 1
Never understand why even after all this time and after he's proved himself to be so key to the team playing well so many times, that there's still this weird urge some have to ditch him. He'll have the odd bad game, which players don't, but he's still pretty much the first name on the team sheet for me. Back to his best yesterday. Just always right there where he needed too be and always making himself available to receive the ball and circulate it. I dont mind Valejo , but dropping Hogg for him?? Lets drop Sorba Thomas to give Aarons a game whilst we're at it! Wasn't able to get to the match yesterday as I was away. Great to hear Hogg was back on song, making himself available and recycling the ball. My main criticism of Hogg's below-par performances this season have been because he HAS NOT been doing this. When he's off it and not providing a link between defence and the more creative players we are a much poorer side. When he provides that link we are able to play through the thirds and get up the pitch much more effectively. As I said, great to hear he played well and the team benefitted. Long may it continue.
|
|
|
Post by richhtfc on Aug 29, 2021 19:14:29 GMT 1
Isn't Scotty High more the likely successor to Hoggy than Vallejo? Yeah him or Vallejo I just think we need to start rotating Hogg a bit more to bring the others through, create competition for places and mix the way we play up a bit. Like we appear to be doing with Ward and Campbell.
|
|
|
Post by ACW on Aug 29, 2021 19:17:08 GMT 1
Some of us never ever doubt Jonathan Hogg. Thankfully I’m one of them. Top class today. I'm a big fan of Hogg. I've defended him a lot on here over the years. We're obviously a better side with him than without him. That said, he's not above criticism. He's started the season relatively poorly and should expect his performances to be questioned. Great to hear he was back to his old self yesterday. Hopefully his poor form is behind him.
|
|
|
Post by Captainslapper on Aug 29, 2021 19:17:42 GMT 1
Isn't Scotty High more the likely successor to Hoggy than Vallejo? I see Scott High as a lad who might take Obriens role in the side when he moves on. That box to box midfielder role. Still finding his feet is High but making very steady progress. I think he'll be a really good player. I do think Vallejo plays a similar role to Hogg. Bit silkier on the ball but doesn't have the tenacity or energy. No one's place should be guaranteed. If Hoggs having a run of poor games then Id be happy to see Vallajo take his place and try and keep the shirt. Hoggs very consistent though. A bad run of games for him is 2, then he'll put in good performances again for the next 10.
|
|
|
Post by thrice on Aug 29, 2021 19:39:04 GMT 1
It would be nice to bring in another centre mid option before the window closes. We are still light on options in there & up front.
|
|
|
Post by sykeylad on Aug 29, 2021 19:54:29 GMT 1
Isn't Scotty High more the likely successor to Hoggy than Vallejo? I see Scott High as a lad who might take Obriens role in the side when he moves on. That box to box midfielder role. Still finding his feet is High but making very steady progress. I think he'll be a really good player. I do think Vallejo plays a similar role to Hogg. Bit silkier on the ball but doesn't have the tenacity or energy. No one's place should be guaranteed. If Hoggs having a run of poor games then Id be happy to see Vallajo take his place and try and keep the shirt. Hoggs very consistent though. A bad run of games for him is 2, then he'll put in good performances again for the next 10. Fair points, I get the box-to-box element for High to be an O'Brien. Just that for me when Vallejo plays teams seem to come straight through us too often whilst Hoggy (and High not far behind) stop that happening.
|
|
|
Post by Headless Chicken on Aug 29, 2021 20:46:13 GMT 1
Never understand why even after all this time and after he's proved himself to be so key to the team playing well so many times, that there's still this weird urge some have to ditch him. He'll have the odd bad game, which players don't, but he's still pretty much the first name on the team sheet for me. Back to his best yesterday. Just always right there where he needed too be and always making himself available to receive the ball and circulate it. I dont mind Valejo , but dropping Hogg for him?? Lets drop Sorba Thomas to give Aarons a game whilst we're at it! Nowt wrong with criticising/questioning elements of his game, but no one should really doubt his overall contribution.
|
|
|
Post by galpharm2400 on Aug 29, 2021 21:25:19 GMT 1
Never understand why even after all this time and after he's proved himself to be so key to the team playing well so many times, that there's still this weird urge some have to ditch him. He'll have the odd bad game, which players don't, but he's still pretty much the first name on the team sheet for me. Back to his best yesterday. Just always right there where he needed too be and always making himself available to receive the ball and circulate it. I dont mind Valejo , but dropping Hogg for him?? Lets drop Sorba Thomas to give Aarons a game whilst we're at it! Nowt wrong with criticising/questioning elements of his game, but no one should really doubt his overall contribution. Dont ask Hogg to do anything but hold and tackle and cover whilst making sure he just moves the ball on quickly. If he does that he is the first name on the team sheet. Dont go back to asking him to play too much. Dont give him too much or too little time on the ball. Horses for courses. Vallejo can play on the turn and his passing is better so it's possible that the central 3 midfield could be Hogg, Vallejo and O brien? Vallejo being our 'next' Mooy?
|
|
|
Post by Captainslapper on Aug 30, 2021 11:21:05 GMT 1
Players like Mooy are thin on the ground. Very comfortable to receive the ball even under pressure and just see the game developing around them so they know what they're going to do before they even have the ball. I think our next ones coming through our youth system but I wont embarrass his old man with such an ambitious prediction!
|
|
tepidterrier
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,576
Member is Online
|
Post by tepidterrier on Aug 30, 2021 14:04:21 GMT 1
I rate Vallejo but to compare him to Mooy, at this point, is just ridiculous, you're comparing a promising, decent passing forward but poor defensive midfielder that has been here a while & is nowhere near a regular in the team, with the best player we've had in 45 years. I don't think anyone for a minute is suggesting they're comparable in quality. Their roles in the team as the tempo setter are the same though, despite having many different qualities.
|
|
|
Post by Convictatthemac on Aug 30, 2021 14:54:49 GMT 1
I don’t think anyone could deny Hogg’s importance to the team but…. Carlos needs to recognise better when he’s having a bad game and give Vallejo a chance IMO. He was great yesterday, it was almost like he’d read some of the criticism because he was much more positive with his play, but he isn’t always and we need proper competition for every position on the pitch.. I think it’s no coincidence that he performed after the criticism he has received. Turning on the ball or letting it run across his body, it was almost as though he’d forgotten about using it until the criticism. His performance wasn’t up to the early part of last season(because last year’s was so good) but it was miles ahead of anything this season and if he continues to play that way we'll be a much team for it. Good on him.
|
|
|
Post by specialun on Aug 31, 2021 21:37:22 GMT 1
For all our ups and many downs, one thing is constant - every manager / head coach, from the great through to the not so good pick Hogg.
Anyone doubting him watch that third goal. Hogg at his best.
I recall a similar thread last summer and probably the 5 before that too!
Agree he’s not beyond criticism - and some good posts / comments on this thread
|
|