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Post by morleyterrier on Dec 30, 2023 21:43:34 GMT 1
3 wins out of 18 is an appalling record. Not many Managers survive that, especially when you add in the brand of football is woeful. However! , you cannot argue with how we have played the last two matches, a significant improvement. I am still not convinced about Nagle and certainly not about Moore. I do though hope I am completely wrong on both fronts and we have seen a step-change in terms of Moore’s approach to matches. Defeats (undeserved like last night) I can and will tolerate if we have a go. Are you going to start a campaign to have him sell or liquidate the club then ? Ah of course, this wealthy businessman is not doing any of this for him or his own agenda / gain. He is just getting involved with this football club to selflessly fund the club and help us fans out. May be so, I am not though that naive. |
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Post by ColchTerrier on Dec 30, 2023 21:46:23 GMT 1
Long way to go for me. It’s obvious he’s been told to change his ways or hit the high road.
Just isn’t the guy.
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Post by tockyterrier on Dec 30, 2023 21:57:22 GMT 1
Ultimatum apparently......According to one ex Town manager pre match on Boxing day. I think Moore has been told his style of play and more importantly the results, are concretely unacceptable. There has been a clear change in our style of play. I doubt Moore just randomly decided it had to change, going by Nagles public statement Moore got a telling off and a few matches to sort it out. Or at least show intention. You think we've started playing better witbin a few days, because DM has been told results arent good enough? So you think he didnt already know results werent good enough? Id say its more likely a case of having Kasumu, Wiles and Rudoni available at the same time and players gradually understanding the patterns of play with the ball as we transition from Warnock's kick it long and chase it down style. I think DM has had to work to get the players to understand how to get in to defensive shape to stop the drubbings we got every time we tried to attack, before they could work on attacking play and its not easy when playing 2 games a week and half the squade injured or ill every week. |
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Post by tockyterrier on Dec 30, 2023 22:05:00 GMT 1
Are you going to start a campaign to have him sell or liquidate the club then ? Ah of course, this wealthy businessman is not doing any of this for him or his own agenda / gain. He is just getting involved with this football club to selflessly fund the club and help us fans out. May be so, I am not though that naive. Worked for Deano didnt it? Anyway, even if that was the case, hes got to make us sucessful to succeed, he wont make anything out of us by getting relegated will he. So Alpines point is valid. We were going bust, DH stopped it, but wanted out. What are you suggesting is best option now then? |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Dec 30, 2023 22:08:55 GMT 1
The thing with Moore was that there were no easy answers.
Ditch him, and you're looking at 7 managerial appointments in 18 months, and knowing that you HAVE to get the next one right. Who are you going to get that would walk into a job knowing they could be ditched in 3 months if they don't get a painfully thin squad firing on all cylinders and climbing the table?
Keep DM, and you're hoping a guy who had underperformed even Vs low expectations due to a weak squad will suddenly turn it around.
I just wanted something to hang my hat on. Something to say that he's the guy to turn it around.
The last 2 performances have given me hope.
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Post by waggers on Dec 30, 2023 22:10:00 GMT 1
I think Moore has been told his style of play and more importantly the results, are concretely unacceptable. There has been a clear change in our style of play. I doubt Moore just randomly decided it had to change, going by Nagles public statement Moore got a telling off and a few matches to sort it out. Or at least show intention. You think we've started playing better witbin a few days, because DM has been told results arent good enough? So you think he didnt already know results werent good enough? Id say its more likely a case of having Kasumu, Wiles and Rudoni available at the same time and players gradually understanding the patterns of play with the ball as we transition from Warnock's kick it long and chase it down style. I think DM has had to work to get the players to understand how to get in to defensive shape to stop the drubbings we got every time we tried to attack, before they could work on attacking play and its not easy when playing 2 games a week and half the squade injured or ill every week. No, likely told the manner the way he sets the team up to play was shocking. Which it was. |
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Post by Tinpot on Dec 30, 2023 22:10:18 GMT 1
I think Moore has been told his style of play and more importantly the results, are concretely unacceptable. There has been a clear change in our style of play. I doubt Moore just randomly decided it had to change, going by Nagles public statement Moore got a telling off and a few matches to sort it out. Or at least show intention. You think we've started playing better witbin a few days, because DM has been told results arent good enough? So you think he didnt already know results werent good enough? Id say its more likely a case of having Kasumu, Wiles and Rudoni available at the same time and players gradually understanding the patterns of play with the ball as we transition from Warnock's kick it long and chase it down style. I think DM has had to work to get the players to understand how to get in to defensive shape to stop the drubbings we got every time we tried to attack, before they could work on attacking play and its not easy when playing 2 games a week and half the squade injured or ill every week. I'm not sure Wiles has had a lot to do with it TBH. |
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Post by waggers on Dec 30, 2023 22:19:00 GMT 1
You think we've started playing better witbin a few days, because DM has been told results arent good enough? So you think he didnt already know results werent good enough? Id say its more likely a case of having Kasumu, Wiles and Rudoni available at the same time and players gradually understanding the patterns of play with the ball as we transition from Warnock's kick it long and chase it down style. I think DM has had to work to get the players to understand how to get in to defensive shape to stop the drubbings we got every time we tried to attack, before they could work on attacking play and its not easy when playing 2 games a week and half the squade injured or ill every week. I'm not sure Wiles has had a lot to do with it TBH. Rudoni's return has given us a boost. I don't think the return of him is the sole reason for the upturn in performance. I believe a large reason is a change of approach by Moore which is very welcome. |
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Post by Waterloo Terrier on Dec 30, 2023 22:20:10 GMT 1
Upto Nagle and Cartwright to sort this out now. They obviously don’t want to sack Moore in a rush and performances have got a lot better this week.
However, without a handful of proven Championship signings in the next few weeks we will probably go down. So it’s time for actions, not words.
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Post by rab030 on Dec 30, 2023 23:28:59 GMT 1
You think we've started playing better witbin a few days, because DM has been told results arent good enough? So you think he didnt already know results werent good enough? Id say its more likely a case of having Kasumu, Wiles and Rudoni available at the same time and players gradually understanding the patterns of play with the ball as we transition from Warnock's kick it long and chase it down style. I think DM has had to work to get the players to understand how to get in to defensive shape to stop the drubbings we got every time we tried to attack, before they could work on attacking play and its not easy when playing 2 games a week and half the squade injured or ill every week. No, likely told the manner in which he sets the team up to play was shocking. Which it was. Whoever told him what he needed to do must be a genius and we should appoint them manager immediately 🤩 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2023 23:57:52 GMT 1
So does anyone know what has changed? It's a stark opposite of the previous games he's set the players up as. I'm liable to get sent before a firing squad but I think the biggest thing that has changed is we've had Matty Pearson unavailable. He's got a massive heart and all that, but is borderline incompetent compared to what you'd expect of a Championship footballer, it's become impossible to have any stability at the back with him there, and there's no respite as all he can do is lump the ball aimlessly long and it just gets turned around into constant pressure. A few things have changed. Kasumu has started playing right wingback. Nakayama on the left of 3 centre backs as Pearson is out. This, for me, has made a huge difference. Both of them can, and do, support the attack. Pearson, heart of a lion, struggles to pass and is far from quick. Rudoni is back. He moves across the pitch and is an outlet for both wings. He links up play across the park and blocks the opposition down the centre. Starting to link better with Wiles as well. As all the strikers who would normally start are out we had Del and Sorba as a front 2 and then Koroma and Sorba. All, for me do more than Ward does. The latter pairing give us an overload down both wings but they will cut inside as well. Add in Headley and we have movement and speed. With Wiles playing better our midfield looks more capable and having more pace in the team allows us to press higher up the pitch and still get back to cover. It gives some indication of how we could be with a few more quality players either to start or on the bench. Being able to bring on a solid 6’ 4” striker, as Boro did, would really give us some options. So perhaps DM has just found a setup that allows us to play more positively and has players back fit to execute it. |
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Post by waggers on Dec 31, 2023 0:42:44 GMT 1
No, likely told the manner in which he sets the team up to play was shocking. Which it was. Whoever told him what he needed to do must be a genius and we should appoint them manager immediately 🤩 Most fans could have told him to be fair. It wasn't advice only Pep could have conveyed. Don't park every man behind the ball and play for a last minute penalty or own goal. We don't have a great squad, but we aren't that shit. |
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Post by wigster on Dec 31, 2023 2:38:38 GMT 1
You seem to have forgotten that VAR as implemented is only there for the big clubs. VAR or the people operating it would only see what they want to see. And we are not a big club. I get that, but I genuinely feel referees are reluctant to give us a decision. Yes, we got the penalty at Millwall, but if any sort of stat was out there in terms of key decisions going against a team over the last 5 years. I believe we would be close, or if not, the top of that list. Serious question - why on earth would referees be reluctant to give us decisions. Yes, refs make mistakes, some are "homers" etc but why on earth should referees genuinely be biased against us ? I've watched Town for 50 years + and, yes, there are a handful of exceptions and incidents, but I've no evidence whatsoever of refs being reluctant to give us decisions. |
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Post by rockwall on Dec 31, 2023 11:18:20 GMT 1
I get that, but I genuinely feel referees are reluctant to give us a decision. Yes, we got the penalty at Millwall, but if any sort of stat was out there in terms of key decisions going against a team over the last 5 years. I believe we would be close, or if not, the top of that list. Serious question - why on earth would referees be reluctant to give us decisions. Yes, refs make mistakes, some are "homers" etc but why on earth should referees genuinely be biased against us ? I've watched Town for 50 years + and, yes, there are a handful of exceptions and incidents, but I've no evidence whatsoever of refs being reluctant to give us decisions. Simple. Because we just roll over and accept it. We aren't a big club in the eyes of the footballing people. We never even get "homers". I am not saying that they meet and say "let's not give Huddersfield anything", it was more that the referee on the day probably gets less hassle from our club than the opposition, so big decisions, easier to upset us than the opposition. |
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Post by royrace on Dec 31, 2023 11:46:08 GMT 1
Serious question - why on earth would referees be reluctant to give us decisions. Yes, refs make mistakes, some are "homers" etc but why on earth should referees genuinely be biased against us ? I've watched Town for 50 years + and, yes, there are a handful of exceptions and incidents, but I've no evidence whatsoever of refs being reluctant to give us decisions. Simple. Because we just roll over and accept it. We aren't a big club in the eyes of the footballing people. We never even get "homers". I am not saying that they meet and say "let's not give Huddersfield anything", it was more that the referee on the day probably gets less hassle from our club than the opposition, so big decisions, easier to upset us than the opposition. I'm sure this is definitely a factor, another reason why it's sometimes good to have the type of manager who doesn't take any shit when the officials are having a mare. You won't find a better example than the play off final where the officials subconsciously thought well it's only little old Huddersfield, even if it cost them £200m it will soon be brushed under the carpet, none of the media will be interested and the club will just take it's medicine and keep schtum. And they were absolutely right on all counts. |
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Post by omegasupreme on Dec 31, 2023 20:30:14 GMT 1
I think Moore has been told his style of play and more importantly the results, are concretely unacceptable. There has been a clear change in our style of play. I doubt Moore just randomly decided it had to change, going by Nagles public statement Moore got a telling off and a few matches to sort it out. Or at least show intention. You think we've started playing better witbin a few days, because DM has been told results arent good enough? So you think he didnt already know results werent good enough? Id say its more likely a case of having Kasumu, Wiles and Rudoni available at the same time and players gradually understanding the patterns of play with the ball as we transition from Warnock's kick it long and chase it down style. I think DM has had to work to get the players to understand how to get in to defensive shape to stop the drubbings we got every time we tried to attack, before they could work on attacking play and its not easy when playing 2 games a week and half the squade injured or ill every week. This myth that Warnock plays "kick it long and chase down" . Opposed to what? Moore's "kick it long and don't chase down and have 20% possession" style? They played well against Blackburn and very well against Mbro, but come on don't kid yourself. Even if it was pragmatic at times - the football was significantly better under Warnock's reign than it has been under Moore's so far. Moore's tenure overall been bloody awful in terms of results and football. He's fortunate to still have his job. |
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Post by rockwall on Dec 31, 2023 20:49:17 GMT 1
You think we've started playing better witbin a few days, because DM has been told results arent good enough? So you think he didnt already know results werent good enough? Id say its more likely a case of having Kasumu, Wiles and Rudoni available at the same time and players gradually understanding the patterns of play with the ball as we transition from Warnock's kick it long and chase it down style. I think DM has had to work to get the players to understand how to get in to defensive shape to stop the drubbings we got every time we tried to attack, before they could work on attacking play and its not easy when playing 2 games a week and half the squade injured or ill every week. This myth that Warnock plays "kick it long and chase down" . Opposed to what? Moore's "kick it long and don't chase down and have 20% possession" style? They played well against Blackburn and very well against Mbro, but come on don't kid yourself. Even if it was pragmatic at times - the football was significantly better under Warnock's reign than it has been under Moore's so far. Moore's tenure overall been bloody awful in terms of results and football. He's fortunate to still have his job. Warnock did ride his luck at times though during 1st halves. Our 1st half performances weren't that great. Warnock though, had a knack of a great HT team talk and we scored a lot of goal from 45-60 mins. He then also knew, tactically, how to see a game out. |
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Post by omegasupreme on Dec 31, 2023 22:51:33 GMT 1
This myth that Warnock plays "kick it long and chase down" . Opposed to what? Moore's "kick it long and don't chase down and have 20% possession" style? They played well against Blackburn and very well against Mbro, but come on don't kid yourself. Even if it was pragmatic at times - the football was significantly better under Warnock's reign than it has been under Moore's so far. Moore's tenure overall been bloody awful in terms of results and football. He's fortunate to still have his job. Warnock did ride his luck at times though during 1st halves. Our 1st half performances weren't that great. Warnock though, had a knack of a great HT team talk and we scored a lot of goal from 45-60 mins. He then also knew, tactically, how to see a game out. Agree but not sure I’d call it luck. Warnock is about as lucky as Moore is unlucky (albeit with the exception of our last game which we were unlucky to lose). |
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Post by 66738 on Dec 31, 2023 23:47:24 GMT 1
Serious question - why on earth would referees be reluctant to give us decisions. Yes, refs make mistakes, some are "homers" etc but why on earth should referees genuinely be biased against us ? I've watched Town for 50 years + and, yes, there are a handful of exceptions and incidents, but I've no evidence whatsoever of refs being reluctant to give us decisions. Simple. Because we just roll over and accept it. We aren't a big club in the eyes of the footballing people. We never even get "homers". I am not saying that they meet and say "let's not give Huddersfield anything", it was more that the referee on the day probably gets less hassle from our club than the opposition, so big decisions, easier to upset us than the opposition. I can remember a bit ago on Talksport, they had a bloke on that supported Bristol City. He was complaining it was an extremely long time since they were awarded a penalty, and he thought officials had something against them. |
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Post by townarentbest on Jan 1, 2024 2:30:52 GMT 1
I get that, but I genuinely feel referees are reluctant to give us a decision. Yes, we got the penalty at Millwall, but if any sort of stat was out there in terms of key decisions going against a team over the last 5 years. I believe we would be close, or if not, the top of that list. Serious question - why on earth would referees be reluctant to give us decisions. Yes, refs make mistakes, some are "homers" etc but why on earth should referees genuinely be biased against us ? I've watched Town for 50 years + and, yes, there are a handful of exceptions and incidents, but I've no evidence whatsoever of refs being reluctant to give us decisions. Because we’ve been a nice club with nice players for about 20 years and we don’t get in the referees face at all after 50-50 incidents like some clubs. I don’t think refs are biased against us, but they can be biased and influenced by other teams. We’re a pussy club appealing to a family fan base, we’re not a hardcore aggressive tribalistic football club… (And that’s fine). |
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Post by townarentbest on Jan 1, 2024 2:36:30 GMT 1
This myth that Warnock plays "kick it long and chase down" . Opposed to what? Moore's "kick it long and don't chase down and have 20% possession" style? They played well against Blackburn and very well against Mbro, but come on don't kid yourself. Even if it was pragmatic at times - the football was significantly better under Warnock's reign than it has been under Moore's so far. Moore's tenure overall been bloody awful in terms of results and football. He's fortunate to still have his job. Warnock did ride his luck at times though during 1st halves. Our 1st half performances weren't that great. Warnock though, had a knack of a great HT team talk and we scored a lot of goal from 45-60 mins. He then also knew, tactically, how to see a game out. Except of course he *didn’t* have a knack of us scoring a lot of goals from 45-60 mins 🤷♂️ |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Jan 1, 2024 9:52:02 GMT 1
Theirs. Put it this way, if that was the other way around and it wasn't given, our fans would be doing the "poor me" act and whining about how "refs are always against us". Personally, I'd have given both. I've seen both types given, I've seen them both not given - but of the two I felt the handball was clearer than the mistimed tackle. Whether the ref had a better view of theirs than ours was probably the deciding factor this time. Just bad luck rather than anything more sinister imo. |
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Post by rothwellterrier on Jan 1, 2024 10:05:48 GMT 1
Serious question - why on earth would referees be reluctant to give us decisions. Yes, refs make mistakes, some are "homers" etc but why on earth should referees genuinely be biased against us ? I've watched Town for 50 years + and, yes, there are a handful of exceptions and incidents, but I've no evidence whatsoever of refs being reluctant to give us decisions. Because we’ve been a nice club with nice players for about 20 years and we don’t get in the referees face at all after 50-50 incidents like some clubs. I don’t think refs are biased against us, but they can be biased and influenced by other teams. We’re a pussy club appealing to a family fan base, we’re not a hardcore aggressive tribalistic football club… (And that’s fine). Makes you wonder how we got that penalty the other week at Millwall then. Two polar opposites of fan bases  |
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Post by Tinpot on Jan 1, 2024 10:11:22 GMT 1
You think we've started playing better witbin a few days, because DM has been told results arent good enough? So you think he didnt already know results werent good enough? Id say its more likely a case of having Kasumu, Wiles and Rudoni available at the same time and players gradually understanding the patterns of play with the ball as we transition from Warnock's kick it long and chase it down style. I think DM has had to work to get the players to understand how to get in to defensive shape to stop the drubbings we got every time we tried to attack, before they could work on attacking play and its not easy when playing 2 games a week and half the squade injured or ill every week. Opposed to what? Moore's "kick it long and don't chase down and have 20% possession" style? They played well against Blackburn and very well against Mbro, but come on don't kid yourself. Even if it was pragmatic at times - the football was significantly better under Warnock's reign than it has been under Moore's so far. Moore's tenure overall been bloody awful in terms of results and football. He's fortunate to still have his job. Was that a myth? Must admit that was exactly my interpretation of our style under Colin. To suggest that is not condemnation. Given the situation we were in that was a perfectly acceptable tactic to use. Darren Moore's tenure has been dreadful overall. I'd agree with that. And the strongest arguments for keeping him in post were (and to be honest, still are!) factors outside his control. Prior to the last two games I was erring on the side of letting him go. There was nothing to hang my hat on to say, "yes, this is what he's trying to do, this can work". The last two games have given us something. Arguably not enough to suggest all is well (we had some half way decent performances under Buzz too), but there's something. There isn't a perfect answer here. On balance though I think we need to back DM. Whether I regret those words in May is another matter. |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Jan 1, 2024 10:11:59 GMT 1
Because we’ve been a nice club with nice players for about 20 years and we don’t get in the referees face at all after 50-50 incidents like some clubs. I don’t think refs are biased against us, but they can be biased and influenced by other teams. We’re a pussy club appealing to a family fan base, we’re not a hardcore aggressive tribalistic football club… (And that’s fine). Makes you wonder how we got that penalty the other week at Millwall then. Two polar opposites of fan bases No-one likes them. |
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Post by rockwall on Jan 1, 2024 10:19:25 GMT 1
Warnock did ride his luck at times though during 1st halves. Our 1st half performances weren't that great. Warnock though, had a knack of a great HT team talk and we scored a lot of goal from 45-60 mins. He then also knew, tactically, how to see a game out. Except of course he *didn’t* have a knack of us scoring a lot of goals from 45-60 mins 🤷♂️ Headley 49th V Brum Pearson 55th V Watford Koroma 59th V Sunderland Hungbo 60th V Cardiff Ward 59th V Sheff Utd Koroma 49th V Reading Ruffles, Koroma and Pearson all V Boro. |
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Post by Porrohman on Jan 1, 2024 10:43:51 GMT 1
Except of course he *didn’t* have a knack of us scoring a lot of goals from 45-60 mins 🤷♂️ Headley 49th V Brum Pearson 55th V Watford Koroma 59th V Sunderland Hungbo 60th V Cardiff Ward 59th V Sheff Utd Koroma 49th V Reading Ruffles, Koroma and Pearson all V Boro. Yeah, but apart from those.....😁 |
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Post by omegasupreme on Jan 1, 2024 11:51:25 GMT 1
This myth that Warnock plays "kick it long and chase down" . Opposed to what? Moore's "kick it long and don't chase down and have 20% possession" style? They played well against Blackburn and very well against Mbro, but come on don't kid yourself. Even if it was pragmatic at times - the football was significantly better under Warnock's reign than it has been under Moore's so far. Moore's tenure overall been bloody awful in terms of results and football. He's fortunate to still have his job. Was that a myth? Must admit that was exactly my interpretation of our style under Colin. To suggest that is not condemnation. Given the situation we were in that was a perfectly acceptable tactic to use. Darren Moore's tenure has been dreadful overall. I'd agree with that. And the strongest arguments for keeping him in post were (and to be honest, still are!) factors outside his control. Prior to the last two games I was erring on the side of letting him go. There was nothing to hang my hat on to say, "yes, this is what he's trying to do, this can work". The last two games have given us something. Arguably not enough to suggest all is well (we had some half way decent performances under Buzz too), but there's something. There isn't a perfect answer here. On balance though I think we need to back DM. Whether I regret those words in May is another matter. Yes - played some decent football at times. Moore makes Warnock look like Pep based on his first 16 games. |
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Post by omegasupreme on Jan 1, 2024 11:57:04 GMT 1
Except of course he *didn’t* have a knack of us scoring a lot of goals from 45-60 mins 🤷♂️ Headley 49th V Brum Pearson 55th V Watford Koroma 59th V Sunderland Hungbo 60th V Cardiff Ward 59th V Sheff Utd Koroma 49th V Reading Ruffles, Koroma and Pearson all V Boro. All I would deduce from it is that we know he's always been great at motivating players at half time. Why does it matter what minute a team scores in? It seems like a really strange stat to point out. |
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Post by JG Mellor on Jan 1, 2024 12:33:23 GMT 1
Simple. Because we just roll over and accept it. We aren't a big club in the eyes of the footballing people. We never even get "homers". I am not saying that they meet and say "let's not give Huddersfield anything", it was more that the referee on the day probably gets less hassle from our club than the opposition, so big decisions, easier to upset us than the opposition. I can remember a bit ago on Talksport, they had a bloke on that supported Bristol City. He was complaining it was an extremely long time since they were awarded a penalty, and he thought officials had something against them. Go on any forum and their will be fans who are paranoid about refs being against their team. Any forum. |
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