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Post by Amigo on Jan 3, 2024 13:55:19 GMT 1
The thing for me is we came off the back of 2 very good performances at home and everyone seemed pretty positive about what we were seeing and then -
We get beat away to comfortably the best side in the league with 2 wingers up front, a midfielder at wing back, our captain out leaving a player that's played (that's nowhere near championship quality anyway) most of his career at centre back in midfield, a keeper that's appeared for 65 mins in the last 9 games and a kid that's made one league appearance for us before plus having nothing to bring off the bench.
Then a manager that was doing far worse with far better resources gets sacked and suddenly we're back to being a shit show with no ambition and a shit manager.
Of all the things to get negative about and drag everyones mood back down after 2 good performances these 2 things weren't it.
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Jan 3, 2024 14:59:27 GMT 1
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Post by townarentbest on Jan 3, 2024 15:46:04 GMT 1
Warcnock - Played = 24... Won = 9..... Draw = 6...... Loss = 9.... Win % = 37.50 On that basis NW would have around 36 points at the 26 game mark..but we have 25 points...21st instead of 12th.. Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Jan 3, 2024 16:00:21 GMT 1
I think warnock would have more points now, but not that many more to be honest. Wed probably be a few places higher up. Warnock put this squad together, Moore didnt, and Warnock would have struggled with its lack of strength too. He really didn’t put this squad together though did he? He was handed a set of players devoid of any confidence and stuck with them. He made the most of what he had. Then there was just 4 additions in the summer. I don’t know what the narrative is of people wanting to berate Warnock, but I wish it would stop. The guy came in and successfully did what he was set out to do, with flying colours. I didn’t see anyone criticising him after Sheffield United at home last season. What he did last season was amazing..but that doesnt mean you can absolve him of all blame for the state of our squad this season. He will be the one who decided who should go and was responsible for hiring replacements, or perhaps not hiring replacements. For example, hell be the one who decided it would be a good idea to let Rhodes leave and rely on Ward's form and fitness without any replacement striker coming in. Thats one of the big reasons they wanted him to stay on..to be in charge of all that whilst the takeover and boardroom building was going on in the background. The players will have gone into this season full of confidence after how last season ended. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Jan 3, 2024 16:02:15 GMT 1
On that basis NW would have around 36 points at the 26 game mark..but we have 25 points...21st instead of 12th.. Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. When assessing a manager you can only include what they did last season if its warnock, NOT if its Moore. Thems the rules.  |
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Post by Captainslapper on Jan 3, 2024 16:08:07 GMT 1
Fotheringham's points per game record over the 20 games he was in charge ( 21 points) would have kept us up if maintained over a full season..yet he was the worst manager of all time who would have definitely got us relegated according to almost everyone on here. Is it one rule for warnock, a different rule for him? You are right in saying that Fotheringham's points per game record would have kept us up, but he might not have needed the full season. If his last 17 games had produced 17 or 18 points - you have to admit it's a big if - we'd have finished with 45 or 46 points and Reading went down with 44. But Reading had the 6-point deduction and we had to play them at home, so it would have been touch and go. I didn't start this extrapolation bollocks* - you know as well as I do that very few clubs' points tally follows a linear pattern throughout a season - but Warnock, alone among our last 4 managers, gathered points at a far better rate than a point a game, and my bet is that the 7 points out of 9 when he left was just the start of another gathering of points at a rate of better than a point a game. * When posters do this sort of thing, the least they can do is to count league games only. Yeah its difficult to do fairly. Theres many factors going on..a key players form perhaps, or a really bad injury situation like Fotheringham had to contend with for almost all his time here. My view is warnock was great last season...did us no favours in the summer window and perhaps as a result this season was pretty 'meh'. |
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araucaria
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Post by araucaria on Jan 3, 2024 17:15:20 GMT 1
On that basis NW would have around 36 points at the 26 game mark..but we have 25 points...21st instead of 12th.. Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. Was it the squad in February last year, or was it the manager? Oh, and those four points would be really handy. |
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Post by detox on Jan 3, 2024 17:24:00 GMT 1
Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. When assessing a manager you can only include what they did last season if its warnock, NOT if its Moore. Thems the rules. |
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Post by detox on Jan 3, 2024 17:25:33 GMT 1
When assessing a manager you can only include what they did last season if its warnock, NOT if its Moore. Thems the rules. being manager at Town is the rules.. |
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by goodbet on Jan 3, 2024 18:28:33 GMT 1
On that basis NW would have around 36 points at the 26 game mark..but we have 25 points...21st instead of 12th.. Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. The points difference of 4 points now would relate to approx 8 points by the end of the season. You don't think 8 points would make any difference at the end of the season? |
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Post by Porrohman on Jan 3, 2024 19:57:40 GMT 1
On that basis NW would have around 36 points at the 26 game mark..but we have 25 points...21st instead of 12th.. Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. Except this manager isn't fit to lace up Colins boots |
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Post by Porrohman on Jan 3, 2024 19:58:45 GMT 1
He really didn’t put this squad together though did he? He was handed a set of players devoid of any confidence and stuck with them. He made the most of what he had. Then there was just 4 additions in the summer. I don’t know what the narrative is of people wanting to berate Warnock, but I wish it would stop. The guy came in and successfully did what he was set out to do, with flying colours. I didn’t see anyone criticising him after Sheffield United at home last season. What he did last season was amazing..but that doesnt mean you can absolve him of all blame for the state of our squad this season. He will be the one who decided who should go and was responsible for hiring replacements, or perhaps not hiring replacements. For example, hell be the one who decided it would be a good idea to let Rhodes leave and rely on Ward's form and fitness without any replacement striker coming in. Thats one of the big reasons they wanted him to stay on..to be in charge of all that whilst the takeover and boardroom building was going on in the background. The players will have gone into this season full of confidence after how last season ended. I bet he wasn't banking on us not bringing another striker in. |
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Post by Porrohman on Jan 3, 2024 20:00:33 GMT 1
Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. When assessing a manager you can only include what they did last season if its warnock, NOT if its Moore. Thems the rules. Last season when Moore had the best squad and biggest budget in the league below us ? |
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Post by townarentbest on Jan 3, 2024 22:39:02 GMT 1
Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. Was it the squad in February last year, or was it the manager? Oh, and those four points would be really handy. Last February we won one game under Warnock, against a very poor Birmingham team who were in the middle of what would go on to be 4 straight defeats and finished on equal points to us. Hungbo scored in the game where we had Hogg, Rudoni, Ward, Kasumu, Helik and Lees on the pitch. Besides Hungbo (who would walk into this team), the rest are all current Town players, who would arguably be first XI...Darren Moore has not had all of those players available for ANY game of his tenure...he had the experience of Ruffles, Knockaert, Koroma & Waghorn on the bench against a poor team, now, against what are already the champions elect, we've got a bench packed with (no offence to the lads) Falls, Stone, Iorpenda, Austerfield, Hudlin and Ayina - players that nobody would expect to be playing at this level. |
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Post by townarentbest on Jan 3, 2024 22:41:49 GMT 1
Except most of that was an entirely different season. His average points return this season if maintained (which it wouldn't be, given the injuries to key players), would see us one place higher than we are today, on 29points. Basically, no difference. ITS THE SQUAD, not the manager. The points difference of 4 points now would relate to approx 8 points by the end of the season. You don't think 8 points would make any difference at the end of the season? I don't think the points difference would have existed...the periods aren't really comparable as we've been impacted by injuries and omissions since Warnock left that have definitely reduced the likelihood of us picking up points. Same injuries and illness since Warnock left we could easily have similar or worse return now. Did you see the state of the football where Matty Pearson was the outlet from the back? 😟 |
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Post by Porrohman on Jan 4, 2024 0:09:57 GMT 1
The points difference of 4 points now would relate to approx 8 points by the end of the season. You don't think 8 points would make any difference at the end of the season? I don't think the points difference would have existed...the periods aren't really comparable as we've been impacted by injuries and omissions since Warnock left that have definitely reduced the likelihood of us picking up points. Same injuries and illness since Warnock left we could easily have similar or worse return now. Did you see the state of the football where Matty Pearson was the outlet from the back? 😟 You are Darren Moore and I claim my prize |
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Post by Captainslapper on Jan 4, 2024 0:31:06 GMT 1
What he did last season was amazing..but that doesnt mean you can absolve him of all blame for the state of our squad this season. He will be the one who decided who should go and was responsible for hiring replacements, or perhaps not hiring replacements. For example, hell be the one who decided it would be a good idea to let Rhodes leave and rely on Ward's form and fitness without any replacement striker coming in. Thats one of the big reasons they wanted him to stay on..to be in charge of all that whilst the takeover and boardroom building was going on in the background. The players will have gone into this season full of confidence after how last season ended. I bet he wasn't banking on us not bringing another striker in. He had all summer to sign a striker. He re-signed ward ( who's agent must absolutely love warnock!) and then no one. You really think warnock had no share of the blame for us failing to get another striker..nevermind loaning out one that we did have? |
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Post by keithAM11532 on Jan 4, 2024 0:39:26 GMT 1
Oi, guys, this is the Shrek thread...just saying
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by goodbet on Jan 4, 2024 11:13:09 GMT 1
I bet he wasn't banking on us not bringing another striker in. He had all summer to sign a striker. He re-signed ward ( who's agent must absolutely love warnock!) and then no one. You really think warnock had no share of the blame for us failing to get another striker..nevermind loaning out one that we did have? Warnock was here all summer summer so I agree that he has to take a share of the blame. I do recall Warnock making some comment about not realising that extending Wards contract would come out of the transfer budget. It shows that Town did not have the structure in place to manage the summer window correctly. |
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by goodbet on Jan 4, 2024 11:22:15 GMT 1
The points difference of 4 points now would relate to approx 8 points by the end of the season. You don't think 8 points would make any difference at the end of the season? I don't think the points difference would have existed...the periods aren't really comparable as we've been impacted by injuries and omissions since Warnock left that have definitely reduced the likelihood of us picking up points. Same injuries and illness since Warnock left we could easily have similar or worse return now. Did you see the state of the football where Matty Pearson was the outlet from the back? 😟 I don't get your point here, first of all you are saying that there was no difference between Warnock and DM and now the periods aren't comparable. I see no further point in discussing anything with you! |
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Post by Captainslapper on Jan 4, 2024 11:25:35 GMT 1
One of those comments warnock would make that you could take with a pinch of salt IMO along with his assessment of Ruffels as a player and the competitiveness of the squad as a whole as he was leaving. Of course he knew any signing on fees..agents fees ..wages..etc would come out of the budget we had..unless he thought that money would just magically appear out of thin air! It was an awkward window because youre right, we didnt have the structure in place properly. Like I said before , I think that was a huge reason why they persuaded Warnock to stay on...he has a shed load of contacts and knowledge and already knew the squad inside and out. The perfect man for that situation...or so he should have been anyway. relevant to Rooney because in football it doesnt always pan out like you hope and expect it will ( for Keith ) |
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by goodbet on Jan 4, 2024 12:19:20 GMT 1
One of those comments warnock would make that you could take with a pinch of salt IMO along with his assessment of Ruffels as a player and the competitiveness of the squad as a whole as he was leaving. Of course he knew any signing on fees..agents fees ..wages..etc would come out of the budget we had..unless he thought that money would just magically appear out of thin air! It was an awkward window because youre right, we didnt have the structure in place properly. Like I said before , I think that was a huge reason why they persuaded Warnock to stay on...he has a shed load of contacts and knowledge and already knew the squad inside and out. The perfect man for that situation...or so he should have been anyway. relevant to Rooney because in football it doesnt always pan out like you hope and expect it will ( for Keith ) I just feel like it was a asking a child to help out in a sweet shop. |
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Post by townarentbest on Jan 4, 2024 12:28:59 GMT 1
I don't think the points difference would have existed...the periods aren't really comparable as we've been impacted by injuries and omissions since Warnock left that have definitely reduced the likelihood of us picking up points. Same injuries and illness since Warnock left we could easily have similar or worse return now. Did you see the state of the football where Matty Pearson was the outlet from the back? 😟 I don't get your point here, first of all you are saying that there was no difference between Warnock and DM and now the periods aren't comparable. I see no further point in discussing anything with you! I'm saying there was no significant difference subjectively - performances under Warnock were pretty crappy (especially this season) - just as performances under DM have seemed pretty crappy (although we seem to have turned a bit of a corner in that regard - the last few games we've given a good go, its been progressive and relatively entertaining). And objectively they're not really comparable - we've effectively had an entirely different set of players available. Warnock didn't have to deal with the keeper situation, had Ruffles, Hogg, Rudoni, Ward etc available for pretty much every game....but, if you really do want to compare them objectively...NW won 2 of 8 games in all competitions this season...which is broadly the return that DM has been maintaining (with an even weaker available squad). I suspect perhaps you (and plenty others for sure) just didn't want rid of NW when he went (or ever), didn't want DM, and are now entrenched - when the real fact is that DM is doing a perfectly ok job given the state of the squad he's had to work with, and even if compared against the most experienced manager there's ever been. |
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Post by royrace on Jan 4, 2024 12:40:12 GMT 1
He had all summer to sign a striker. He re-signed ward ( who's agent must absolutely love warnock!) and then no one. You really think warnock had no share of the blame for us failing to get another striker..nevermind loaning out one that we did have? Warnock was here all summer summer so I agree that he has to take a share of the blame. I do recall Warnock making some comment about not realising that extending Wards contract would come out of the transfer budget. It shows that Town did not have the structure in place to manage the summer window correctly. He also pretty much said that the budget wouldn't stretch to any of the strikers that be wanted. It was clear then that he wasn't exactly happy with the budget and didn't think it allowed him to strengthen the striker position otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it on numerous different occasions. |
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Post by royrace on Jan 4, 2024 12:45:24 GMT 1
One of those comments warnock would make that you could take with a pinch of salt IMO along with his assessment of Ruffels as a player and the competitiveness of the squad as a whole as he was leaving. Of course he knew any signing on fees..agents fees ..wages..etc would come out of the budget we had..unless he thought that money would just magically appear out of thin air! It was an awkward window because youre right, we didnt have the structure in place properly. Like I said before , I think that was a huge reason why they persuaded Warnock to stay on...he has a shed load of contacts and knowledge and already knew the squad inside and out. The perfect man for that situation...or so he should have been anyway. relevant to Rooney because in football it doesnt always pan out like you hope and expect it will ( for Keith ) We were already paying the wages of ward, ruffles and koroma so if he was given a new player budget of say £15k pw in wages you can see how he might have thought that was for new players. Regardless though it should have been made crystal clear by whoever communicated the budget to him. Completely amateurish really to assume he knew without making it clear. The main issue of course seems to be that the budget was way too small to do anything useful with. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Jan 4, 2024 13:08:37 GMT 1
One of those comments warnock would make that you could take with a pinch of salt IMO along with his assessment of Ruffels as a player and the competitiveness of the squad as a whole as he was leaving. Of course he knew any signing on fees..agents fees ..wages..etc would come out of the budget we had..unless he thought that money would just magically appear out of thin air! It was an awkward window because youre right, we didnt have the structure in place properly. Like I said before , I think that was a huge reason why they persuaded Warnock to stay on...he has a shed load of contacts and knowledge and already knew the squad inside and out. The perfect man for that situation...or so he should have been anyway. relevant to Rooney because in football it doesnt always pan out like you hope and expect it will ( for Keith ) We were already paying the wages of ward, ruffles and koroma so if he was given a new player budget of say £15k pw in wages you can see how he might have thought that was for new players. Regardless though it should have been made crystal clear by whoever communicated the budget to him. Completely amateurish really to assume he knew without making it clear. The main issue of course seems to be that the budget was way too small to do anything useful with. We werent already paying the wages of Ward Ruffels and Koroma, ..those three players had left. They werent ours anymore for the squad in 23/24. Negotiations will have taken place with all 3's agents around contracts, wages, fees etc..and whatever was agreed was always going to be ADDED to the budget, not already part of it. The budget allowed us to spend something like £1.2m on Wiles so some money was clearly there for the right player. For whatever reasons, a deal for a striker couldn't get over the line. Warnock has always said whatever strengthens Warnock's position and reputation IMO. Not his fault we didnt sign a striker...( with no mention of letting one go out on loan) ..hes re-signed one of the best full backs in the championship....hed put together a squad capable of challenging for top 6...he didnt understand new signings werent already part of the existing budget...etc etc Honestly, throughout his career most of what he says should be taken with a large dose of salt IMO...hes extremely good at marketing himself. |
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Post by Porrohman on Jan 4, 2024 13:17:05 GMT 1
I don't get your point here, first of all you are saying that there was no difference between Warnock and DM and now the periods aren't comparable. I see no further point in discussing anything with you! I'm saying there was no significant difference subjectively - performances under Warnock were pretty crappy (especially this season) - just as performances under DM have seemed pretty crappy (although we seem to have turned a bit of a corner in that regard - the last few games we've given a good go, its been progressive and relatively entertaining). And objectively they're not really comparable - we've effectively had an entirely different set of players available. Warnock didn't have to deal with the keeper situation, had Ruffles, Hogg, Rudoni, Ward etc available for pretty much every game....but, if you really do want to compare them objectively...NW won 2 of 8 games in all competitions this season...which is broadly the return that DM has been maintaining (with an even weaker available squad). I suspect perhaps you (and plenty others for sure) just didn't want rid of NW when he went (or ever), didn't want DM, and are now entrenched - when the real fact is that DM is doing a perfectly ok job given the state of the squad he's had to work with, and even if compared against the most experienced manager there's ever been. Do you think Moore would've done the job Colin did last season, with the same players ? |
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Post by Porrohman on Jan 4, 2024 13:19:19 GMT 1
We were already paying the wages of ward, ruffles and koroma so if he was given a new player budget of say £15k pw in wages you can see how he might have thought that was for new players. Regardless though it should have been made crystal clear by whoever communicated the budget to him. Completely amateurish really to assume he knew without making it clear. The main issue of course seems to be that the budget was way too small to do anything useful with. We werent already paying the wages of Ward Ruffels and Koroma, ..those three players had left. They werent ours anymore for the squad in 23/24. Negotiations will have taken place with all 3's agents around contracts, wages, fees etc..and whatever was agreed was always going to be ADDED to the budget, not already part of it. The budget allowed us to spend something like £1.2m on Wiles so some money was clearly there for the right player. For whatever reasons, a deal for a striker couldn't get over the line. Warnock has always said whatever strengthens Warnock's position and reputation IMO. Not his fault we didnt sign a striker...( with no mention of letting one go out on loan) ..hes re-signed one of the best full backs in the championship....hed put together a squad capable of challenging for top 6...he didnt understand new signings werent already part of the existing budget...etc etc Honestly, throughout his career most of what he says should be taken with a large dose of salt IMO...hes extremely good at marketing himself. So was Hoyle, you lapped it up when he did it (IMO) |
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Post by Terrier Ramone on Jan 4, 2024 13:37:25 GMT 1
We were already paying the wages of ward, ruffles and koroma so if he was given a new player budget of say £15k pw in wages you can see how he might have thought that was for new players. Regardless though it should have been made crystal clear by whoever communicated the budget to him. Completely amateurish really to assume he knew without making it clear. The main issue of course seems to be that the budget was way too small to do anything useful with. We werent already paying the wages of Ward Ruffels and Koroma, ..those three players had left. They werent ours anymore for the squad in 23/24. Negotiations will have taken place with all 3's agents around contracts, wages, fees etc..and whatever was agreed was always going to be ADDED to the budget, not already part of it. The budget allowed us to spend something like £1.2m on Wiles so some money was clearly there for the right player. For whatever reasons, a deal for a striker couldn't get over the line. Warnock has always said whatever strengthens Warnock's position and reputation IMO. Not his fault we didnt sign a striker...( with no mention of letting one go out on loan) ..hes re-signed one of the best full backs in the championship....hed put together a squad capable of challenging for top 6...he didnt understand new signings werent already part of the existing budget...etc etc Honestly, throughout his career most of what he says should be taken with a large dose of salt IMO...hes extremely good at marketing himself. Agree totally, you always have to take what NW says with a pinch of salt, i.e of course he would say he'd expect us to be top 6, despite him leaving, he knew we had a crap squad but it makes him look really good when the new man can't get us in the top 20, |
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by goodbet on Jan 4, 2024 15:40:38 GMT 1
I don't get your point here, first of all you are saying that there was no difference between Warnock and DM and now the periods aren't comparable. I see no further point in discussing anything with you! I'm saying there was no significant difference subjectively - performances under Warnock were pretty crappy (especially this season) - just as performances under DM have seemed pretty crappy (although we seem to have turned a bit of a corner in that regard - the last few games we've given a good go, its been progressive and relatively entertaining). And objectively they're not really comparable - we've effectively had an entirely different set of players available. Warnock didn't have to deal with the keeper situation, had Ruffles, Hogg, Rudoni, Ward etc available for pretty much every game....but, if you really do want to compare them objectively... NW won 2 of 8 games in all competitions this season...which is broadly the return that DM has been maintaining (with an even weaker available squad). I suspect perhaps you (and plenty others for sure) just didn't want rid of NW when he went (or ever), didn't want DM, and are now entrenched - when the real fact is that DM is doing a perfectly ok job given the state of the squad he's had to work with, and even if compared against the most experienced manager there's ever been. So in spite of what I said earlier :- Warnock for me is someone I have always had mixed feelings about. I was a fan of the team he broke up when he first arrived but happy when we got promoted, but I was not too upset that we split ways after the promotion. This time around I and I suspect just about everyone else was happy with last years result when he dragged us to safety. This season we were looking OK not great but we looked like we would be safe. Replacing him with someone who looked like he did not have a clue and only seems to want to play football because he was told too after the attendances dropped and the fans were far from happy. If DM played square pegs in square holes, understood the substitution rules and not stood on the sideline like he was just waiting for a bus he would have helped himself a little bit. In a very much results business he has been running behind the curve from the off and on the basis of his decision making todate I would not have allowed him anywhere near the decisions for any strengthening we desperately need in this window. Finally I just think that if you think they're not really comparable I just don't see how you could make the statement I have highlighted. |
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