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Post by Carlito Brigante on Nov 29, 2024 14:12:12 GMT 1
Could be worse, we could just decide not to appoint one and instead have a recruitment team of Phil Hodgkinson, Dean Hoyle, Julian Winter and Josh Marsh. (This actually happened). Who did we actually sign under this dream team? Did any work out well? |
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Post by dugnet on Nov 29, 2024 14:17:18 GMT 1
The thing that annoys me most is Kevins insistence that Cartwright is doing a good Job,when it is patently clear to anyone with Half a brain,that he is not. I wouldn't disagree. Be it because of poor decisions or just being unlucky ( and to be fair it's a combination of both in Cartwright's case IMO ) hes got to be on thin ice surely? on a wider point, maybe DoF is the biggest poison chalice in football these days? Everybody has an opinion on your performance without really knowing the details around it..your budget restrictions,,,the shenanigans that goes on with agents and other clubs. They'll call out the bad decisions you make but wont even be aware of the bad decisions you avoided. If the team does well you tend to get no credit..it all goes to the players and the manager. If the team does badly, then you'll get more stick than all of them. What id say about Cartwright and his player dealings is he makes Bromby look better and better all the time. You make some really good observations here and it presents a good balance of all the things that the job entails. Even allowing for the nuances and challenges Cartwright faces if you wanted to boil his contribution down to a single action it must be the Ladapo signing. It, potentially, looks one of the poorest choices in a long, long time (since Diakhaby?). I know he didn't attract a fee to another club but there will have been a signing on, agents fee, competitive salary for League One and a length of contract (2 years!). Now I was prepared, as with all players, to give him a chance but he offers absolutely nothing that I can see. I appreciate not every signing can be a success but the logic of this one beggars belief and the outcome matches that. I am sure there are others we could challenge. I don't know by what benchmark Mr Nagle evaluates Cartwright but this has to be of some concern, at least. We all know where our key weakness lies and Cartwright has had 2 full windows to address it. He's going to get another (he isn't going to be changed now -if he was it would also demonstrate a poor strategy) and he has to deliver. That's not trolling or being unpleasant it is, if we really have ambitions to move the team forward, a statement of fact. |
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Post by htafcokay on Nov 29, 2024 14:20:06 GMT 1
Could be worse, we could just decide not to appoint one and instead have a recruitment team of Phil Hodgkinson, Dean Hoyle, Julian Winter and Josh Marsh. (This actually happened). Who did we actually sign under this dream team? Did any work out well? Josh Koroma, Reece Brown, Tommy Elphick and Herbert Bockhorn to my knowledge. |
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incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,529
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Post by incognito on Nov 29, 2024 14:24:11 GMT 1
The thing that annoys me most is Kevins insistence that Cartwright is doing a good Job,when it is patently clear to anyone with Half a brain,that he is not. I wouldn't disagree. Be it because of poor decisions or just being unlucky ( and to be fair it's a combination of both in Cartwright's case IMO ) hes got to be on thin ice surely? on a wider point, maybe DoF is the biggest poison chalice in football these days? Everybody has an opinion on your performance without really knowing the details around it..your budget restrictions,,,the shenanigans that goes on with agents and other clubs. They'll call out the bad decisions you make but wont even be aware of the bad decisions you avoided. If the team does well you tend to get no credit..it all goes to the players and the manager. If the team does badly, then you'll get more stick than all of them. What id say about Cartwright and his player dealings is he makes Bromby look better and better all the time. What's clear here is that supporters still judge Sporting Directors almost exclusively through the prism of First Team recruitment. In reality, that's just one of various departments that report in to him. From the outside looking in, it seems as though Cartwright's brief has been to essentially rebuild the entire football organisation - any dividends of which stand to be realised over the longer term. If we are to just focus on First Team recruitment - his job, as much as anything, has been to recruit the people to do the recruitment. Since Warnock's 2023 summer window we've seen the installation of a new Head of Recruitment (09/2023), Assistant Head of Recruitment (06/2024), and Chief Scout (06/2024), as well as a stream of new regional lead scouts and analysts. Putting aside the specific player selections, I just found the overall strategy last January really strange. For a club in obvious transition, with an incumbent Head Coach on his last legs, and a tangible risk of relegation, going out and spending millions of pounds on permanent signings in the January market (much of it on players with no experience of senior football in England), and with only a skeletal recruitment organisation in place, seemed pretty illogical. At the start of the month, I'd fully anticipated a handful of quality loans, and perhaps one or two investments in promising players from the league below. (But I also think back to the KN video diaries around that time, and the intimations that Cartwright was operating according to some sort of top-down quota...) On the other hand, I could see the logic in pretty much all the business we did in the most recent window. Unfortunately, in many ways it has become defined by the business we didn't manage to do, and the subsequent countermeasure. Moving forward - if it was my club, I would only be sanctioning transfer fees as investments on players we believe have the potential to significantly appreciate in value (otherwise just lean on the loan market). Hopefully we now at least have the team in place to support the sensible use of limited resources (SCMP / FFP considerations rather than necessarily depth of owner's pockets). Either way, Cartwright will remain the public face of it for the remainder of his tenure - which is, ultimately, part of what he gets paid for. |
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Post by runner76 on Nov 29, 2024 14:31:17 GMT 1
I wouldn't disagree. Be it because of poor decisions or just being unlucky ( and to be fair it's a combination of both in Cartwright's case IMO ) hes got to be on thin ice surely? on a wider point, maybe DoF is the biggest poison chalice in football these days? Everybody has an opinion on your performance without really knowing the details around it..your budget restrictions,,,the shenanigans that goes on with agents and other clubs. They'll call out the bad decisions you make but wont even be aware of the bad decisions you avoided. If the team does well you tend to get no credit..it all goes to the players and the manager. If the team does badly, then you'll get more stick than all of them. What id say about Cartwright and his player dealings is he makes Bromby look better and better all the time. What's clear here is that supporters still judge Sporting Directors almost exclusively through the prism of First Team recruitment. In reality, that's just one of various departments that report in to him. From the outside looking in, it seems as though Cartwright's brief has been to essentially rebuild the entire football organisation - any dividends of which stand to be realised over the longer term. If we are to just focus on First Team recruitment - his job, as much as anything, has been to recruit the people to do the recruitment. Since Warnock's 2023 summer window we've seen the installation of a new Head of Recruitment (09/2023), Assistant Head of Recruitment (06/2024), and Chief Scout (06/2024), as well as a stream of new regional lead scouts and analysts. Putting aside the specific player selections, I just found the overall strategy last January really strange. For a club in obvious transition, with an incumbent Head Coach on his last legs, and a tangible risk of relegation, going out and spending millions of pounds on permanent signings in the January market (much of it on players with no experience of senior football in England), and with only a skeletal recruitment organisation in place, seemed pretty illogical. At the start of the month, I'd fully anticipated a handful of quality loans, and perhaps one or two investments in promising players from the league below. (But I also think back to the KN video diaries around that time, and the intimations that Cartwright was operating according to some sort of top-down quota...) On the other hand, I could see the logic in pretty much all the business we did in the most recent window. Unfortunately, in many ways it has become defined by the business we didn't manage to do, and the subsequent countermeasure. Moving forward - if it was my club, I would only be sanctioning transfer fees as investments on players we believe have the potential to significantly appreciate in value (otherwise just lean on the loan market). Hopefully we now at least have the team in place to support the sensible use of limited resources (SCMP / FFP considerations rather than necessarily depth of owner's pockets). Either way, Cartwright will remain the public face of it for the remainder of his tenure - which is, ultimately, part of what he gets paid for. First team football being the reason the majority of fans are fans. It’s the only benchmark that matters to most and it’s the one which Cartwright will be judged on at the end of the season……. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Nov 29, 2024 14:34:36 GMT 1
The thing that annoys me most is Kevins insistence that Cartwright is doing a good Job,when it is patently clear to anyone with Half a brain,that he is not. I wouldn't disagree. Be it because of poor decisions or just being unlucky ( and to be fair it's a combination of both in Cartwright's case IMO ) hes got to be on thin ice surely? on a wider point, maybe DoF is the biggest poison chalice in football these days? Everybody has an opinion on your performance without really knowing the details around it..your budget restrictions,,,the shenanigans that goes on with agents and other clubs. They'll call out the bad decisions you make but wont even be aware of the bad decisions you avoided. If the team does well you tend to get no credit..it all goes to the players and the manager. If the team does badly, then you'll get more stick than all of them. What id say about Cartwright and his player dealings is he makes Bromby look better and better all the time. The only thing thats stopped happening in the last decade is fans have stopped accusing them of picking the team  It's absolutely the biggest poisoned chalice in football. There's DOFs/Sporting Directors/Whatever getting it in the neck up and down the country when in reality unlike managers and players you get very little window at all into their working week. We've had knocking on 10 in the last decade since Ross Wilson and the only one who gets any credit is Stuart Webber, yet by the end Norwich fans hated him. Ross Wilson was hated at Rangers. Most have been hated here or haven't even been here long enough to get to that point. Seems like team does well and its the managers and players doing, team does bad and its the DOF getting it for appointing manager whos not doing well. |
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Post by htafcokay on Nov 29, 2024 14:38:30 GMT 1
I wouldn't disagree. Be it because of poor decisions or just being unlucky ( and to be fair it's a combination of both in Cartwright's case IMO ) hes got to be on thin ice surely? on a wider point, maybe DoF is the biggest poison chalice in football these days? Everybody has an opinion on your performance without really knowing the details around it..your budget restrictions,,,the shenanigans that goes on with agents and other clubs. They'll call out the bad decisions you make but wont even be aware of the bad decisions you avoided. If the team does well you tend to get no credit..it all goes to the players and the manager. If the team does badly, then you'll get more stick than all of them. What id say about Cartwright and his player dealings is he makes Bromby look better and better all the time. The only thing thats stopped happening in the last decade is fans have stopped accusing them of picking the team It's absolutely the biggest poisoned chalice in football. There's DOFs/Sporting Directors/Whatever getting it in the neck up and down the country when in reality unlike managers and players you get very little window at all into their working week. We've had knocking on 10 in the last decade since Ross Wilson and the only one who gets any credit is Stuart Webber, yet by the end Norwich fans hated him. Ross Wilson was hated at Rangers. Most have been hated here or haven't even been here long enough to get to that point. Seems like team does well and its the managers and players doing, team does bad and its the DOF getting it for appointing manager whos not doing well. Wilson was often accused of picking the team as well. |
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incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,529
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Post by incognito on Nov 29, 2024 14:38:37 GMT 1
What's clear here is that supporters still judge Sporting Directors almost exclusively through the prism of First Team recruitment. In reality, that's just one of various departments that report in to him. From the outside looking in, it seems as though Cartwright's brief has been to essentially rebuild the entire football organisation - any dividends of which stand to be realised over the longer term. If we are to just focus on First Team recruitment - his job, as much as anything, has been to recruit the people to do the recruitment. Since Warnock's 2023 summer window we've seen the installation of a new Head of Recruitment (09/2023), Assistant Head of Recruitment (06/2024), and Chief Scout (06/2024), as well as a stream of new regional lead scouts and analysts. Putting aside the specific player selections, I just found the overall strategy last January really strange. For a club in obvious transition, with an incumbent Head Coach on his last legs, and a tangible risk of relegation, going out and spending millions of pounds on permanent signings in the January market (much of it on players with no experience of senior football in England), and with only a skeletal recruitment organisation in place, seemed pretty illogical. At the start of the month, I'd fully anticipated a handful of quality loans, and perhaps one or two investments in promising players from the league below. (But I also think back to the KN video diaries around that time, and the intimations that Cartwright was operating according to some sort of top-down quota...) On the other hand, I could see the logic in pretty much all the business we did in the most recent window. Unfortunately, in many ways it has become defined by the business we didn't manage to do, and the subsequent countermeasure. Moving forward - if it was my club, I would only be sanctioning transfer fees as investments on players we believe have the potential to significantly appreciate in value (otherwise just lean on the loan market). Hopefully we now at least have the team in place to support the sensible use of limited resources (SCMP / FFP considerations rather than necessarily depth of owner's pockets). Either way, Cartwright will remain the public face of it for the remainder of his tenure - which is, ultimately, part of what he gets paid for. First team football being the reason the majority of fans are fans. It’s the only benchmark that matters to most and it’s the one which Cartwright will be judged on at the end of the season……. Absolutely. Were it up to the fans he wouldn't still be here. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Nov 29, 2024 15:10:06 GMT 1
The only thing thats stopped happening in the last decade is fans have stopped accusing them of picking the team It's absolutely the biggest poisoned chalice in football. There's DOFs/Sporting Directors/Whatever getting it in the neck up and down the country when in reality unlike managers and players you get very little window at all into their working week. We've had knocking on 10 in the last decade since Ross Wilson and the only one who gets any credit is Stuart Webber, yet by the end Norwich fans hated him. Ross Wilson was hated at Rangers. Most have been hated here or haven't even been here long enough to get to that point. Seems like team does well and its the managers and players doing, team does bad and its the DOF getting it for appointing manager whos not doing well. Wilson was often accused of picking the team as well. I know, thats what I was referencing when I said it had stopped. |
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Post by htafcokay on Nov 29, 2024 15:25:04 GMT 1
Wilson was often accused of picking the team as well. I know, thats what I was referencing when I said it had stopped. Can also guarantee that if we get promoted this season, Cartwright will get no praise whatsoever and it'll all be down to Nagle. Yet at the moment, people are blaming Cartwright and saying that Nagle can't be blamed for it. |
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Post by Gag N Bone Man on Nov 29, 2024 15:38:20 GMT 1
I know, thats what I was referencing when I said it had stopped. Can also guarantee that if when we get promoted this season, Cartwright will get no praise whatsoever and it'll all be down to Nagle. Yet at the moment, people are blaming Cartwright and saying that Nagle can't be blamed for it. Fixed it for you  |
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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 29, 2024 15:42:34 GMT 1
I wouldn't disagree. Be it because of poor decisions or just being unlucky ( and to be fair it's a combination of both in Cartwright's case IMO ) hes got to be on thin ice surely? on a wider point, maybe DoF is the biggest poison chalice in football these days? Everybody has an opinion on your performance without really knowing the details around it..your budget restrictions,,,the shenanigans that goes on with agents and other clubs. They'll call out the bad decisions you make but wont even be aware of the bad decisions you avoided. If the team does well you tend to get no credit..it all goes to the players and the manager. If the team does badly, then you'll get more stick than all of them. What id say about Cartwright and his player dealings is he makes Bromby look better and better all the time. You make some really good observations here and it presents a good balance of all the things that the job entails. Even allowing for the nuances and challenges Cartwright faces if you wanted to boil his contribution down to a single action it must be the Ladapo signing. It, potentially, looks one of the poorest choices in a long, long time (since Diakhaby?). I know he didn't attract a fee to another club but there will have been a signing on, agents fee, competitive salary for League One and a length of contract (2 years!). Now I was prepared, as with all players, to give him a chance but he offers absolutely nothing that I can see. I appreciate not every signing can be a success but the logic of this one beggars belief and the outcome matches that. I am sure there are others we could challenge. I don't know by what benchmark Mr Nagle evaluates Cartwright but this has to be of some concern, at least. We all know where our key weakness lies and Cartwright has had 2 full windows to address it. He's going to get another (he isn't going to be changed now -if he was it would also demonstrate a poor strategy) and he has to deliver. That's not trolling or being unpleasant it is, if we really have ambitions to move the team forward, a statement of fact. Dont agree with the bold bit. I think in the circumstances it was a logical signing. We'd got ourselves into a mess in our attempts to bring in a striker in the window..not all our fault really...then youre looking at free agents. We chose one who'd only a year previously fired his side up and out of this division scoring plenty of goals...a players whos lived in this area of the country before and one with loads of experience and a good reputation in terms of his character. I think it all made a lot of logical sense in the circumstances...until we actually saw him play! |
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Post by htafcokay on Nov 29, 2024 15:44:16 GMT 1
Can also guarantee that if when we get promoted this season, Cartwright will get no praise whatsoever and it'll all be down to Nagle. Yet at the moment, people are blaming Cartwright and saying that Nagle can't be blamed for it. Fixed it for you Next season, yeah? |
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Post by dugnet on Nov 29, 2024 16:12:00 GMT 1
You make some really good observations here and it presents a good balance of all the things that the job entails. Even allowing for the nuances and challenges Cartwright faces if you wanted to boil his contribution down to a single action it must be the Ladapo signing. It, potentially, looks one of the poorest choices in a long, long time (since Diakhaby?). I know he didn't attract a fee to another club but there will have been a signing on, agents fee, competitive salary for League One and a length of contract (2 years!). Now I was prepared, as with all players, to give him a chance but he offers absolutely nothing that I can see. I appreciate not every signing can be a success but the logic of this one beggars belief and the outcome matches that. I am sure there are others we could challenge. I don't know by what benchmark Mr Nagle evaluates Cartwright but this has to be of some concern, at least. We all know where our key weakness lies and Cartwright has had 2 full windows to address it. He's going to get another (he isn't going to be changed now -if he was it would also demonstrate a poor strategy) and he has to deliver. That's not trolling or being unpleasant it is, if we really have ambitions to move the team forward, a statement of fact. Dont agree with the bold bit. I think in the circumstances it was a logical signing. We'd got ourselves into a mess in our attempts to bring in a striker in the window..not all our fault really...then youre looking at free agents. We chose one who'd only a year previously fired his side up and out of this division scoring plenty of goals...a players whos lived in this area of the country before and one with loads of experience and a good reputation in terms of his character. I think it all made a lot of logical sense in the circumstances...until we actually saw him play! I am not so sure, that assumes there were no other options across the market. His record prior to last season was OK, not staggering but OK, last season his contribution at Charlton should surely have raised question marks? I take the point about being in a mess but even so surely there had to be a case for considering is no action was as good an outcome (as making the signing). Obviously evidence since has really made the whole thing look ludicrous. |
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