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Post by tottz on May 12, 2024 21:56:10 GMT 1
Isn’t it a good question? Clubs have gone to the wall because owners have lost interest and demanded their money back with interest. Probably a good thing to know in the current climate Who Bury Worky who else I’ll point you in the direction of Everton for the most recent, 777 are after a £160 million loan repaid. Bolton had issues with repayments of loans. Reading’s owner got bored and withdrew funding, Chansiri looking to recoup money. There’s plenty more similar stories out there, Josimar’s a really good site to read up more on the dodgy financial dealings going on in football nowadays and a lot of it serves as a cautionary tale |
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Post by Teddington Ted on May 12, 2024 22:04:22 GMT 1
I remember the good old days when all we worried about were points, goals and transfers.
If you want tk worry about finance, support KPMG Utd.
Football should be about the search for hedonism, not worrying about balance sheets and interest rates on directors loans.
Long may the blissful ignorance of such things continue.
UTT
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Post by Tiro on May 12, 2024 22:09:16 GMT 1
I’ll point you in the direction of Everton for the most recent, 777 are after a £160 million loan repaid. Bolton had issues with repayments of loans. Reading’s owner got bored and withdrew funding, Chansiri looking to recoup money. There’s plenty more similar stories out there, Josimar’s a really good site to read up more on the dodgy financial dealings going on in football nowadays and a lot of it serves as a cautionary tale Readings owner getting bored and withdrawing funding is not a matter of where the funds come from. Everton overspending is not a matter of where the funds come from. Bolton, Wigan et al not being able to repay loans, is not a matter of where the funds come from. The issue is not having the capital to pay. Back in topic, as long as Kev can keep paying, and it’s not a result of some sweatshop or slave trade, it’s not our business. Hodgkinson levied the club against his own business and failed. DH used his own capital wealth and didn’t have enough. As long as the cash flows, the club stays afloat. |
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Post by incognito on May 12, 2024 22:16:06 GMT 1
I remember the good old days when all we worried about were points, goals and transfers. If you want tk worry about finance, support KPMG Utd. Football should be about the search for hedonism, not worrying about balance sheets and interest rates on directors loans. Long may the blissful ignorance of such things continue. UTT Whether we like it or not, it's an important aspect of modern football. I do think it would be better if there was a concerted effort to contain as much of it as possible in the Finance Thread in order for people to more easily pick and choose whether they want to engage with it. |
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Post by twyford on May 12, 2024 22:21:16 GMT 1
Unless you are a card-carrying finance pervert, this question of loan interest is pretty much a red herring. Firstly: KN is currently having to subsidise eight figure losses each season (beyond whatever CAPEX projects he is funding). Every hypothetical pound he were to charge on these loans would require another hypothetical pound from his other pocket to cover the additional loss incurred. Secondly: While loan interest factors into FFP (Profit & Loss based) in the Championship, it is outside of the scope of SCMP in League One, which is more narrowly (and appropriately IMO) focused on the relationship between income and player expenses. As has been pointed out on several occasions already in this thread, the only possibility for KN to see this money again is by overseeing a seismic transformation in commercial and sporting performance. Although in practice the interest would roll up so he wouldn't need to actually introduce further cash to cover the interest but there would be a larger outstanding loan to recoup at some point. The way he answered the interest question, along the lines of 'I'm not bothered by that...' makes me pretty sure that interest is being charged but that he's comfortable with the roll up and dealing with the recovery at the point he seeks to exit. I've no knowledge of US corporate taxes but it does occur to me that there may be tax reasons which mean the investment vehicle used to make the loans may be obliged to charge interest to demonstrate an (albeit notional) income from the investment. |
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Post by dugnet on May 12, 2024 23:37:07 GMT 1
The reason the original question is pertinent is it gives an indication of the level of funding we will have next season. As I understand it Mr Nagle can supplement our budget provided the cash does not burden the club with debt ie he essentially gifts that money to the club.
There is an expectation that we will be adequately funded next season but I haven't heard anything to suggest how competitive that budget will be or how it will be underwritten.
Money talks in League One.
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Post by portugalterrier on May 12, 2024 23:46:49 GMT 1
The reason the original question is pertinent is it gives an indication of the level of funding we will have next season. As I understand it Mr Nagle can supplement our budget provided the cash does not burden the club with debt ie he essentially gifts that money to the club. There is an expectation that we will be adequately funded next season but I haven't heard anything to suggest how competitive that budget will be or how it will be underwritten. Money talks in League One. Why should he tell anyone about next seasons budget, it will only inflate any prices we get quoted, KN now owns HTAFC Ltd, it’s a private limited company , it’s entirely upto him to decide what financial information above and beyond what is in the accounts filed at companies house he discloses, absolutely nothing to do with anyone however entitled they think they are to know. |
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Post by philatrickstarbuck on May 13, 2024 0:29:12 GMT 1
DH lost fuck all running Town. My Mam told me so.
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Post by dugnet on May 13, 2024 6:42:03 GMT 1
The reason the original question is pertinent is it gives an indication of the level of funding we will have next season. As I understand it Mr Nagle can supplement our budget provided the cash does not burden the club with debt ie he essentially gifts that money to the club. There is an expectation that we will be adequately funded next season but I haven't heard anything to suggest how competitive that budget will be or how it will be underwritten. Money talks in League One. Why should he tell anyone about next seasons budget, it will only inflate any prices we get quoted, KN now owns HTAFC Ltd, it’s a private limited company , it’s entirely upto him to decide what financial information above and beyond what is in the accounts filed at companies house he discloses, absolutely nothing to do with anyone however entitled they think they are to know. You make a fair point about not disclosing in relation to transfers and wages, although I would say you only pay what you want to ultimately. I made the point because there are many people who think that we will be funded to have every chance to bounce back. I'm not getting that message from what has been said. Now that doesn't mean there won't be investment in the club in infrastructure etc but the key message I get from the messages is that Mr Nagle wants to create something that becomes sustainable. An academy that creates players that can play for the club and create financial value. A stadium, and surrounding infrastructure, that generates revenue which supports the running of the club. Both of those things are entirely sensible, and, if done very well, will benefit the club in the long term. Neither will however immediately support substantial squad building for next season. Many fans, rightly or wrongly (depending on your view) expect the club to be at least challenging for top 6 next season. There maybe revenue that can be driven by the trading of players, although our bargaining position has just been diminished by relegation. Irrespective of this, if you assume that Birmingham, Wrexham, Stockport, Charlton will have very competitive budgets, significant investment will be required (if we are to look to immediately return to the Championship). My sense of Mr Nagle is that he is essentially a decent bloke. I believe he is here to add value but that may be a slow burn. He intimates there will be investment in the team but he is more specific and passionate about the infrastructure projects. Now if that is his overall strategy I would personally prefer to understand that a little more clearly (noting that my assessment may well be wrong and, as you say, he's keeping his cards close to his chest) so we know what to expect. I suppose it is a difficult message to sell on the back of an awful season. How he funds any investment is pertinent because if it is borrowed against the club it potentially presents a problem in the future. There are many examples of where this is true. I suppose I am guilty of hoping that in Mr Nagle we have someone who sees the potential of the club and is prepared to invest to create something along the lines of Brentford and Brighton. That might be fanciful on my part. I, personally, would like to know so that I have something I can measure success against. If success is about better, in football business terms, sustainable infrastructure then I understand that success on the pitch might be further down the line. Mr Nagle controls that narrative so he will tell us what he wants to. I however don't see any issues with people asking those questions. The next manager/head coach appointment may clarify things. There are likely to be media events where further information will be available. Apologies for the diatribe but I wanted to explain my thoughts. |
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on May 13, 2024 6:48:31 GMT 1
People with real money rarely use their own money. They loan/borrow/debt to increase wealth. And it’s none of our business to be honest. It’s entirely our business as it’s our club. Future potential debts are a very genuine concern (or perhaps should be) for any fan. If it’s our club, that means you are part of it, and me, so would you like to share your thoughts on how you fund your season ticket, what financial assets you own, what money is borrowed, how much debt you have and where you see yourself financially in 5 years? |
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Post by tottz on May 13, 2024 7:47:50 GMT 1
It’s entirely our business as it’s our club. Future potential debts are a very genuine concern (or perhaps should be) for any fan. If it’s our club, that means you are part of it, and me, so would you like to share your thoughts on how you fund your season ticket, what financial assets you own, what money is borrowed, how much debt you have and where you see yourself financially in 5 years? Sometimes I buy it outright, sometimes I do the finance so I have more spends. I own a house, a car and I save about £500 a month but every so often I spend an absolute fuck tonne of money on tat from a football club in addicted to. Where do I see myself in 5 years financially? Don’t care |
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on May 13, 2024 8:18:11 GMT 1
And it would be none of my business.
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Post by watto80 on May 13, 2024 8:23:01 GMT 1
The question is an understandable one to ask but think it through and it’s misguided. The only way KN would ever get any money back is if the club is successful. In which case he’s entitled to any up side on his investment and at that point the funds would either be from club profits (unlikely) or purchase price of a sale. He would not get any money back by loaning it a ton of cash then demanding it back with interest that can’t be paid, ultimately that would mean administration and little to no chance of getting a return.
We are not Man Utd with the Glazers!
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Post by castlehillterrier on May 13, 2024 9:53:05 GMT 1
These sort of questions are completly nothing to do with us fans, Kevin does not have to explain any of this I am actually very suprised by the amount he has said on the subject.
Kevin is a very very rich individual and from everything he has said I am sure the money invested so far is just his own, from the various conversations I am also sure he is fully aware it will be very difficult to see any return in the short term. Every investment on and off the pitch is currently part of the planning to make HTAFC a much larger set up giving us more value in the long term, this long term value is the only way that any sort of return on investment is possible conbined by success on the pitch (Premier league football).
Many say we used to have a fan in charge we did Dean was excellent for us, Phil awful, KN has more money stuck to his left shoe (slider) than Phil and I honestly believe during this season he has become a massive fan of the club and wants to make a success of this for all the right reasons.
Move on stop abusing him especially on X its really quite embarassing.
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Post by dugnet on May 13, 2024 9:56:46 GMT 1
These sort of questions are completly nothing to do with us fans, Kevin does not have to explain any of this I am actually very suprised by the amount he has said on the subject. Kevin is a very very rich individual and from everything he has said I am sure the money invested so far is just his own, from the various conversations I am also sure he is fully aware it will be very difficult to see any return in the short term. Every investment on and off the pitch is currently part of the planning to make HTAFC a much larger set up giving us more value in the long term, this long term value is the only way that any sort of return on investment is possible conbined by success on the pitch (Premier league football). Many say we used to have a fan in charge we did Dean was excellent for us, Phil awful, KN has more money stuck to his left shoe (slider) than Phil and I honestly believe during this season he has become a massive fan of the club and wants to make a success of this for all the right reasons. Move on stop abusing him especially on X its really quite embarassing. Abuse isn't acceptable (in any way) or justified but asking reasonable questions shouldn't be an issue. Club finance is one such issue that it is reasonable to enquire and challenge about. |
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Post by castlehillterrier on May 13, 2024 10:17:45 GMT 1
These sort of questions are completly nothing to do with us fans, Kevin does not have to explain any of this I am actually very suprised by the amount he has said on the subject. Kevin is a very very rich individual and from everything he has said I am sure the money invested so far is just his own, from the various conversations I am also sure he is fully aware it will be very difficult to see any return in the short term. Every investment on and off the pitch is currently part of the planning to make HTAFC a much larger set up giving us more value in the long term, this long term value is the only way that any sort of return on investment is possible conbined by success on the pitch (Premier league football). Many say we used to have a fan in charge we did Dean was excellent for us, Phil awful, KN has more money stuck to his left shoe (slider) than Phil and I honestly believe during this season he has become a massive fan of the club and wants to make a success of this for all the right reasons. Move on stop abusing him especially on X its really quite embarassing. Abuse isn't acceptable (in any way) or justified but asking reasonable questions shouldn't be an issue. Club finance is one such issue that it is reasonable to enquire and challenge about. Kevin did answer the finance part though, he just did not go into detail and neither should he have to. |
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Post by dugnet on May 13, 2024 10:23:29 GMT 1
Abuse isn't acceptable (in any way) or justified but asking reasonable questions shouldn't be an issue. Club finance is one such issue that it is reasonable to enquire and challenge about. Kevin did answer the finance part though, he just did not go into detail and neither should he have to. I didn't take that from the diary. My concerns and rationale are in this thread above. |
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Post by richhtfc on May 13, 2024 10:36:30 GMT 1
I think he did answer the question in an answer to a question he was asked recently, but only half of what you want to know. I can't remember where or when the question was asked, but he was asked about the club funding and it was either badly worded or he didn't understand all of the question. He was asked whether the club was being funded by loans and he answered that no, he was using his own money. So it's not a commercial loan, but it doesn't answer whether it's a directors loan in a similar way that DH funded the club, or a cash injection. As far as I know, in League One FFP allows cash injections to increase the turnover to allow a club to spend more. But loans are not included in turnover. I’m not sure what is meant by a “cash injection”, there’s no such thing in accounting businesses, as I wrote on another thread : “ Could do with an accountant commenting but as I understand it, he can’t just “gift” the club cash. If he wants to introduce funds it has to go down on the balance sheet as a directors loan. You can’t just gift a Ltd company money for no reason, as it literally becomes “unaccountable”, and gives a false position to any accounting. It’s the reason why when owners have already loaned the maximum possible under ffp they do dodgy things like purchasing their stadium at inflated prices on the books. I think the interest on the loans is an interesting point but it would be completely normal to charge interest in these circumstances, but probably at a very low “better than the bank” or “in line with inflation” rate so as not to be to the detriment of his business. Obviously how he chooses to deal with the loans in future is a difficult question to answer, he might choose to write it off every year, more likely it will accumulate on the balance sheet so he can see what his total investment to date is. To be honest, I’m not sure these detailed funding questions are the sort he should have to answer, despite the fact most people don’t understand how businesses work at an accounting level, his finances are personal and no doubt complicated. It should be enough to my mind that people can tell by what he is saying that he is genuine, wants his asset to succeed and we can see he is investing and moving the club forward.” |
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Post by richhtfc on May 13, 2024 10:42:20 GMT 1
These sort of questions are completly nothing to do with us fans, Kevin does not have to explain any of this I am actually very suprised by the amount he has said on the subject. Kevin is a very very rich individual and from everything he has said I am sure the money invested so far is just his own, from the various conversations I am also sure he is fully aware it will be very difficult to see any return in the short term. Every investment on and off the pitch is currently part of the planning to make HTAFC a much larger set up giving us more value in the long term, this long term value is the only way that any sort of return on investment is possible conbined by success on the pitch (Premier league football). Many say we used to have a fan in charge we did Dean was excellent for us, Phil awful, KN has more money stuck to his left shoe (slider) than Phil and I honestly believe during this season he has become a massive fan of the club and wants to make a success of this for all the right reasons. Move on stop abusing him especially on X its really quite embarassing. Abuse isn't acceptable (in any way) or justified but asking reasonable questions shouldn't be an issue. Club finance is one such issue that it is reasonable to enquire and challenge about. It’s not reasonable because the people asking the questions don’t understand how business accounting works and will read what they want into any answers given. Its literally none of our business how he chooses to fund the club imo. |
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Post by Big Ern on May 13, 2024 10:43:00 GMT 1
These sort of questions are completly nothing to do with us fans, Kevin does not have to explain any of this I am actually very suprised by the amount he has said on the subject. Kevin is a very very rich individual and from everything he has said I am sure the money invested so far is just his own, from the various conversations I am also sure he is fully aware it will be very difficult to see any return in the short term. Every investment on and off the pitch is currently part of the planning to make HTAFC a much larger set up giving us more value in the long term, this long term value is the only way that any sort of return on investment is possible conbined by success on the pitch (Premier league football). Many say we used to have a fan in charge we did Dean was excellent for us, Phil awful, KN has more money stuck to his left shoe (slider) than Phil and I honestly believe during this season he has become a massive fan of the club and wants to make a success of this for all the right reasons. Move on stop abusing him especially on X its really quite embarassing. Abuse isn't acceptable (in any way) or justified but asking reasonable questions shouldn't be an issue. Club finance is one such issue that it is reasonable to enquire and challenge about. I genuinely don't think it is reasonable. We don't need to call him into question about how he funds the club. He bought it and IS funding it. That's what matters. Like any other owner they may one day hope to make a return on their investment and if that day comes he leaves us in a much much better place than we are now. Not for a single second do I think he will drop us in the shit. If he does we go into admin and he gets nothing anyway. Let's give the bloke our support and stick together. We need to go into the new season united |
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Post by detox on May 13, 2024 10:43:21 GMT 1
Can't remember which club it was (Ipswich..Norwich..?) That the owner had around £100m in loans to the club and wanted to sell..but actually wrote off the entire debt to give the new owners a clean start ? Couple of years ago, I think...
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htfcterry
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Post by htfcterry on May 13, 2024 10:48:06 GMT 1
Can't remember which club it was (Ipswich..Norwich..?) That the owner had around £100m in loans to the club and wanted to sell..but actually wrote off the entire debt to give the new owners a clean start ? Couple of years ago, I think... Ipswich. Marcus Evans I think |
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Post by dugnet on May 13, 2024 11:23:33 GMT 1
Abuse isn't acceptable (in any way) or justified but asking reasonable questions shouldn't be an issue. Club finance is one such issue that it is reasonable to enquire and challenge about. It’s not reasonable because the people asking the questions don’t understand how business accounting works and will read what they want into any answers given. Its literally none of our business how he chooses to fund the club imo. Point taken but in the context of L1 the financial regulations are different (to the Championship) so some explanation in that context would be helpful ( I do understand that Mr Nagle cannot gift money in regulatory terms ie it has to be accounted for within the guidelines of the EFL and the HMRC). As I elude above there is an expectation that we will "go for it" next season. I think that message is more borne from what people want to see, rather than what has been promised. I can live with not "going for it" if it is offset against the bigger picture strategy. |
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Post by dugnet on May 13, 2024 11:29:44 GMT 1
Abuse isn't acceptable (in any way) or justified but asking reasonable questions shouldn't be an issue. Club finance is one such issue that it is reasonable to enquire and challenge about. I genuinely don't think it is reasonable. We don't need to call him into question about how he funds the club. He bought it and IS funding it. That's what matters. Like any other owner they may one day hope to make a return on their investment and if that day comes he leaves us in a much much better place than we are now. Not for a single second do I think he will drop us in the shit. If he does we go into admin and he gets nothing anyway. Let's give the bloke our support and stick together. We need to go into the new season united Completely support the sentiment but, personally, I don't hear enough substance behind the undoubted positive messages. That hasn't stopped me renewing my ticket (a bit disingenuous saying that as I am one of those who does anyway) but I want something that I can measure against. I can understand the potential rationale for being a little ambiguous and it is very much about how I feel (rather than a statement of fact). |
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Post by tottz on May 13, 2024 11:55:12 GMT 1
I’m in the minority judging by this thread but I think it’s not unreasonable for fans to be a little bit worried and want reassurance from an owner. Clubs are going to the wall more frequently than ever before, surely it’s not a sin to ask questions
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Post by Big Ern on May 13, 2024 12:01:39 GMT 1
I genuinely don't think it is reasonable. We don't need to call him into question about how he funds the club. He bought it and IS funding it. That's what matters. Like any other owner they may one day hope to make a return on their investment and if that day comes he leaves us in a much much better place than we are now. Not for a single second do I think he will drop us in the shit. If he does we go into admin and he gets nothing anyway. Let's give the bloke our support and stick together. We need to go into the new season united Completely support the sentiment but, personally, I don't hear enough substance behind the undoubted positive messages. That hasn't stopped me renewing my ticket (a bit disingenuous saying that as I am one of those who does anyway) but I want something that I can measure against. I can understand the potential rationale for being a little ambiguous and it is very much about how I feel (rather than a statement of fact). What substance can really be shown in less than a year? Mistakes have been made on the managerial front but from what I can see we have a passionate owner who has owned his mistakes and wants to improve all aspects of the club. We don't need to worry about the finances. |
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Post by Werlinger on May 13, 2024 12:19:57 GMT 1
Whilst we're on the subject of finances, I bought a Tango which might have actually been a Fanta towards the back end of last season at an unspecified (for personal reasons) home match.
Don't ask me to specify which home match it was, because I won't divulge for both personal and financial reasons even though I didn't mention finances in my first sentence.
Cheers.
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Post by twyford on May 13, 2024 14:01:41 GMT 1
I think he did answer the question in an answer to a question he was asked recently, but only half of what you want to know. I can't remember where or when the question was asked, but he was asked about the club funding and it was either badly worded or he didn't understand all of the question. He was asked whether the club was being funded by loans and he answered that no, he was using his own money. So it's not a commercial loan, but it doesn't answer whether it's a directors loan in a similar way that DH funded the club, or a cash injection. As far as I know, in League One FFP allows cash injections to increase the turnover to allow a club to spend more. But loans are not included in turnover. I’m not sure what is meant by a “cash injection”, there’s no such thing in accounting businesses, as I wrote on another thread : “ Could do with an accountant commenting but as I understand it, he can’t just “gift” the club cash. If he wants to introduce funds it has to go down on the balance sheet as a directors loan.
You can’t just gift a Ltd company money for no reason, as it literally becomes “unaccountable”, and gives a false position to any accounting. It’s the reason why when owners have already loaned the maximum possible under ffp they do dodgy things like purchasing their stadium at inflated prices on the books. I think the interest on the loans is an interesting point but it would be completely normal to charge interest in these circumstances, but probably at a very low “better than the bank” or “in line with inflation” rate so as not to be to the detriment of his business. Obviously how he chooses to deal with the loans in future is a difficult question to answer, he might choose to write it off every year, more likely it will accumulate on the balance sheet so he can see what his total investment to date is. To be honest, I’m not sure these detailed funding questions are the sort he should have to answer, despite the fact most people don’t understand how businesses work at an accounting level, his finances are personal and no doubt complicated. It should be enough to my mind that people can tell by what he is saying that he is genuine, wants his asset to succeed and we can see he is investing and moving the club forward.” #1 - He could purchase new shares issued by the club - the club wouldn't need to repay these monies but he could recoup the outlay if he was subsequently able to sell the shares on to an alternative owner at the price paid for them (or potentially make a profit if a new owner was willing to pay a higher price). #2 - I'm sure that other clubs get around this issue by window dressing sponsorship deals at inflated prices - didn't Chansiri do this with shirt sponsorship at Wednesday before deciding he'd spent enough money? |
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Post by galpharm2400 on May 13, 2024 14:31:37 GMT 1
That's amazing... just been on the Man City fan's forum and a poster asked the very same question of Sheik Mansour. He found it down the back of his gold plated, leather sofa. Granted its miles long and he and his families 'loose' change isnt much like ours..😉 |
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Post by richhtfc on May 13, 2024 16:25:00 GMT 1
I’m not sure what is meant by a “cash injection”, there’s no such thing in accounting businesses, as I wrote on another thread : “ Could do with an accountant commenting but as I understand it, he can’t just “gift” the club cash. If he wants to introduce funds it has to go down on the balance sheet as a directors loan.
You can’t just gift a Ltd company money for no reason, as it literally becomes “unaccountable”, and gives a false position to any accounting. It’s the reason why when owners have already loaned the maximum possible under ffp they do dodgy things like purchasing their stadium at inflated prices on the books. I think the interest on the loans is an interesting point but it would be completely normal to charge interest in these circumstances, but probably at a very low “better than the bank” or “in line with inflation” rate so as not to be to the detriment of his business. Obviously how he chooses to deal with the loans in future is a difficult question to answer, he might choose to write it off every year, more likely it will accumulate on the balance sheet so he can see what his total investment to date is. To be honest, I’m not sure these detailed funding questions are the sort he should have to answer, despite the fact most people don’t understand how businesses work at an accounting level, his finances are personal and no doubt complicated. It should be enough to my mind that people can tell by what he is saying that he is genuine, wants his asset to succeed and we can see he is investing and moving the club forward.” #1 - He could purchase new shares issued by the club - the club wouldn't need to repay these monies but he could recoup the outlay if he was subsequently able to sell the shares on to an alternative owner at the price paid for them (or potentially make a profit if a new owner was willing to pay a higher price). #2 - I'm sure that other clubs get around this issue by window dressing sponsorship deals at inflated prices - didn't Chansiri do this with shirt sponsorship at Wednesday before deciding he'd spent enough money? Yeah I was going to mention share capital in my original post, I think it’s unlikely he’ll introduce funds that way but he might look to bring in some money by selling equity to a third party. On the second point, definitely read about stuff like that happening but pretty sure it’s not allowed anymore under FFP rules and is a quick way to get into trouble with the FA. |
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