Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Aug 9, 2011 13:42:20 GMT 1
I have a reasonable amount of empathy - and at the moment it is going to the people who have been made homeless and/or had their livelihoods destroyed by a bunch of selfish c**** who want free trainers and mobiles. I'm surprised to see you taking the part of greedy, opportunistic selfish bastards over hard-working, salt of the earth working class folk. But then you are possibly the only state employee in the world who "loves a bit of anarchy" so I should have expected some raging cognitive dissonance.
Once again, when one of the fuckers chucks themselves under a horse for "the cause" instead of thieving, I'll sit up and pay attention.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Aug 9, 2011 13:45:40 GMT 1
Surprisingly I appear to have the most support amongst my work colleagues......
I'm not condoning individual acts. I just feel that rioting is a justifiable method of raising grievances. I have no issue with burning property and looting. It's just stuff. Physically hurting and killing other people I do have an issue with.
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Post by turtle on Aug 9, 2011 13:50:09 GMT 1
Go down your street and tell them it's just stuff Bris and that they're just airing their greivances. I bet they'd be right sypathetic.
I'd seriously send the army in and kick the living shit out of a few of them. That'd thunk 'em.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Aug 9, 2011 13:56:21 GMT 1
That'd solve it wouldn't it. We wouldn't be doing the same thing again in a few years time.
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Aug 9, 2011 14:00:40 GMT 1
brispo
Set fire to your work colleagues' living rooms and see how they feel after they have their kids jumping out of the bedroom windows.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Aug 9, 2011 14:05:28 GMT 1
I'm honestly at a loss as to how to parse that. You get the most support from your work colleagues? You support rioting most of all your colleagues?
So do I. But not when the grievance is, apparently, not having enough mobile phones or trainers.
I suspect that, were you to come home this evening to find your gaff burned out, with Mrs Brys and the Bryslets all teary-eyed and wondering where the fuck they're going to sleep tonight, and your collection of Notts Forest Panini stickers reduced to charred piles of gluey-smelling ash, you might have a change of attitude there.
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Post by turtle on Aug 9, 2011 14:06:45 GMT 1
No I really don't think that we would be in the same situation in a few years time as they'd know that if they set fire and loot their neighbourhood they would have the living shit kicked out of them again by some squaddies. And I don't care how principled or scummy your rioters are, they ain't gonna like that.
They're scum Bris and they deserve everything they get.
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Post by JohnnyNeptune on Aug 9, 2011 14:18:54 GMT 1
"when one of the fuckers chucks themselves under a horse for "the cause"
point of order - she didn't actually mean to do it.
carry on
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Post by markelt on Aug 9, 2011 14:19:38 GMT 1
Come on bris. These people are just wankers who have found a way of getting away with it in numbers. Listen to the sense of entitlement in the voices of those two girls on BBC news about what they're doing. Apparently it's all about 'doing what we want'. It's not just property because people's lives are at risk and their businesses are burning to the ground. How would you feel if somebody cut off your income for the sake of a phone and some clothes?
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Aug 9, 2011 14:20:29 GMT 1
I for one don't want to live in a military (or police) state.
Lots of work colleagues support the riots Bernie, so it aint' just me in the public sector. Cameron coming out with his 'We are all in this together' schtick is also winding more people up.
I don't think I would change my attitude. I genuinely don't. I got my car window smashed in my local youths a couple of years ago. I did things like that when I was a kid so just shrugged my shoulders and got on with it. No real harm was done.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Aug 9, 2011 14:27:52 GMT 1
Absolutely, me neither - and let's be realistic for a second, if this WERE a police state, then these riots would have been over before they'd started.
Cheers for the clarification. A cynic might say you would be (ref your argument about the police cuts). Are these state functionaries also labouring under the delusion that they are "anarchists"? I'm afraid I just can't get my read around that one...
Cameron is an arse, and I suspect he winds nearly everybody up.
It's good of you to accept your karma in that case, but I would posit that there is a world of difference between getting your car window smashed and having your loved ones scared shitless and burned out of their home. If you're going to look at it like that, what REAL harm do the cuts do? Ok, so a youth club or swimming pool might disappear, but where's the real harm in that?
Sith - typical bloody woman. Couldn't even get that right.
edit YAY! Elt is here. I knew if I mentioned "cognitive dissonance" he'd have the benison to pitch in. He's like the Candyman like that.
Let's see if we can summon NewGlennA too:
"I was walking down the street When I tripped up on a discarded banana skin And on my way down I caught the side of my head On a protruding brick chip It was the government's fault It was the fault of the government I was very let down From the budget I was expecting a one million quid handout I was very disappointed It was the government's fault It was the fault of the government
I became semi-autistic type person And I didn't have a pen And I didn't have a condom It was the fault of the government I think I'll emigrate to Sweden or Poland And get looked after properly by government"
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Aug 9, 2011 14:51:27 GMT 1
I have no issue with burning property and looting. It's just stuff. It might be "just stuff" but it's someone's stuff, on which their livelihood depends. You might have your cushy little car-counting job at the council (which apparently you're entitled to by right or something) but some people have to make a real living selling stuff and these small traders have had their stuff stolen / destroyed by the people you admire. All that's happening is that the honest part of the working class is being punished by the lazy dishonest part, and even moderate left-wingers are driven to views normally reserved for the letters page of the Daily Mail. You might have colleagues who agree with you (though I'm surprised at that) but you're the only person I know who is revelling in this tragedy. The fact that everyone here is opposed to you, even those for whom disagreeing with one another has become a full time hobby , must surely tell you something?
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Post by markelt on Aug 9, 2011 15:01:39 GMT 1
What it boils down to is simply that this is a generation of people who think they have the right to behave as they please whatever the effects on everybody else. It's not complicated. We experience them in our day to day lives and what they've discovered now are the circumstances to allow them to take that attitude to an extreme.
I cannot believe that anybody is cheering them on.
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Post by turtle on Aug 9, 2011 15:07:06 GMT 1
Dear Sir,
Please can the army to do something useful for once and kick some shit out of these rioting scumbags. Oh and while your at it get the water cannon and plastic bullets from Northern Ireland and let them have some of that too. And if you want to introduce a curfew for a few days, be my guest.
Yours truly,
A labour voting pacifist.
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Post by markelt on Aug 9, 2011 15:09:13 GMT 1
Seconded
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Aug 9, 2011 15:20:14 GMT 1
Aren't these c**** 'New Labour's children'?
Another thing, if Stoke players end up getting tired because they are playing for these johnny foreigner nations while Chelsea's England stars are well rested then it's an even bigger disgrace.
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Post by markelt on Aug 9, 2011 15:24:10 GMT 1
Yes merk
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Aug 9, 2011 15:38:16 GMT 1
what do you think about that then you Labour voting pacifist?
i'm sure some top pig on the news said that rubber bullets and water cannons weren't the answer
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ab
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Post by ab on Aug 9, 2011 17:32:38 GMT 1
Brispie's facebook thread on the riots is tremendous reading. I wouldn't say that the majority of his pals agreed with him though. I'd always thought that the Brispie history was that he'd been a shiftless stabby c*** as a youth but then decided he didn't want to be living off the social smoking dope all day in his trackie bottoms and went off to get an education and a job. Seems like he just wanted a bit more stuff and slightly more varied conversation but otherwise to stay a shiftless stabby c***. Which is a shame. When you have been brought up in a city which throughout your childhood was booming with so many opportunities that it attracted hundreds of thousands of people to relocate from other parts of the UK, hitch rides under lorries from Afghanistan or up sticks from Eastern Europe leaving their families behind I think you can have close to zero sympathy for saying "there ain't no jobs or opportunities for us". Tottingham isn't like the post-mining 1980s coalfields where you're a long way from the opportunities and haven't got the age-old certainties of a job down the pit that your ancestors had. The opportunities are right there if you want them. If you decide to be a stabby c*** it is because you prefer to be one rather than that being all that appears to be on offer. wp.me/p1kusD-3m
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Post by biggershoe on Aug 10, 2011 9:07:29 GMT 1
Somehow I can't see this lot trying to organise bolshevik cadres.
"It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade, well that and the free stuff innit."
Jordan Marx
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Aug 10, 2011 9:31:41 GMT 1
I'm not revelling in the looting. I'm really not. I just like the fact that this generation of teens have shown some spirit.
What is also really pissing me off is that people simply seem happy to lump these youths into a pot as thugs and yobs. Chuck them all in prison and forget about it. It really isn't that simple.
And thanks for that character assassination AB. I don't know you, like you don't know me. Pretty much like most of us middle classes don't know those currently rioting and yet feel obliged to judge them.
I did do those things when I was a youth. Smashed cars in, tick, smashed house and shop windows, tick, involved in mass brawls, tick, mass looted shops, tick, broke into shops, tick.
I wasn't a bad kid and I was far from being the ringleader. This was fairly standard stuff where I grew up. I was bored out of my mind and with minimal parental control. I was also full of testorone and easily followed my mates as they did me at times.
I grew up, moved on and now cannot condone those activities and am in fact embarrassed by them, but I can't go round judging those kids as I know it's not as simple as they are feral bastards who need a dose of national service.
I'm sure that some of them are lost cases who will be difficult to make into useful citizens, but some of them are probably crying out for some guidance and if we simply vilify them they are lost possibly forever.
That probably makes me a guardian reading, muesli eating, sandal wearing lefty. So be it.
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ab
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Post by ab on Aug 10, 2011 9:50:09 GMT 1
No need to be so thin skinned, it was intended more as caricature (on the basis of what you have said) than character assassination.
Why can't we judge people who we believe have done wrong? That doesn't mean that some or all of them might not have reasons or explanations for how they got to where they are. Not judging at all - which seemed to be the line you were taking before, is too much of a Guardianista cop out. I too am a Guardian reader (eased off a bit since their website disagrees with IE9) but do so in the understanding that it is basically The Daily Mail for middle class metropolitan socialists. Your typical Guardian article and reader is just as judgemental and prejudiced, they just have a different set of prejudices.
But if it is just guidance that they need, what sort and from whom? As you say, I don't know you, but I'd wager that you bring your children up to be respectful and polite and would be horrified if they grew up to be one of the looters of 2020. From what you have said in the past, you're not on the bread line but live reasonably frugally so being able to provide the guidance your children need isn't something that is dependent on your wealth or even your background.
Some or many of the looters might just grow up and move on, but there may also be plenty who will be helped to believe that they are the victims (by well-meaning lefties too reluctant to condemn out of misplaced guilt about themselves) or who see that actually there are no real consequences to such behaviour (reality is that a teen with no previous with a flat full of stuff nicked during the riots will probably not get any form of custodial sentence and might ultimately not even be worth processing through to trial if they accept a caution or ASBO).
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Aug 10, 2011 9:52:20 GMT 1
whether he knows you are not, you've just pretty much confirmed everything that AB said you were. we clearly have different definitions of 'showing spirit' as well. For the record, you were a bad kid.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Aug 10, 2011 10:03:27 GMT 1
At least now I understand how you can simultaneously be a functionary of the state and claim to like anarchy... there is a massive disconnect between reality and what you think, it would seem.
At the moment, it really IS that simple, as long as they are engaging in acts of thubbery and yoggery. Long-term, well, no-one's EVER to agree on what to do, but people that think smashing up cars and people's houses, looting shops and generally carrying on like a c*** isn't the behaviour of a "bad kid" should be excluded from the discussion if you ask me. I have a certain amount of respect for you for not being a hypocrite, but I think your judgement is utterly fucked.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Aug 10, 2011 11:33:49 GMT 1
If I think back to my youth, it was really all about being bored. From about 13-17 (when I could go in pubs reasonably regularly) I was bored most evenings. Mum and Dad wanted me out of the house, so we all went and hung around together somewhere. Most nights you don't do much.
Summer was generally better as the lighter evenings meant you could play football, but the darker evenings were worse. Low level anti-social stuff mostly. Hedgehopping or knock a door run or just hanging around outside the local shop, nicking sweets or frightening the local residents.
However, every now and then you'd get swept along with some crazy idea that someone else had and find yourself in a local village doing over all the local cars that you could find. Largely for the buzz of doing something, but also about machismo in front of your friends. You knew it was wrong and you knew the police may well find out, but mostly they didn't.
What I really needed was some structure. Like I say, Summers were different. We'd all be up the local field with a ball and play football until it got dark before going home. It was as simple as that. We had a local youth club, but we all got bored there. Somewhere dry if it rained, but there was little to do once you were in there.
These kids need a structure, something to burn some energy off that they enjoy, somebody giving them something to aim towards. I had no respect for school or my teachers as I guess that most of these kids don't. I managed to get kicked out of 6th form.
All it took for me was as a 21 year old I didn't feel good so went to see my doctor and he thought I might be depressed, but instead of giving me pills and packing me off we had a good chat and he said that I was obviously a bright lad so why didn't I try for university. It was like a light came on in my head and suddenly I had something to look forward to.
My parents had only ever wanted me to leave school as quickly as possible, like they had done, to get a job and bring some money in. They never motivated me at all, never really got involved other than cook my food and give me a roof over my head. I never remember my parents discussing my education or what I should do after school or how I should behave. When they got a letter from the school because I'd been smashing bottles outside someones house I got a slap on wrist and told by my dad that he never got caught when he was a lad.
That's why I don't think that all these kids should be lumped together and have the book thrown at them. Some of them have got decent futures ahead of them. If they go to prison for a long time now and made into social pariahs, that isn't going to happen. However, some of them are undoubtedly lost cases. There needs to be some community contact to work out which ones are worth that future and which aren't.
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merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by merkin on Aug 10, 2011 11:45:08 GMT 1
i think you were lucky brispie.
getting meals + roof and being told to get a job is something to be thankful for.
smashing things up out of boredom when you know its wrong is just pathetic and there are no excuses....especially if you are a bright lad.
all this community contact stuff is bollocks - everyone has a chance, its just whether or not you give it a go or not.
bring back the chain gangs
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Aug 10, 2011 11:59:26 GMT 1
"BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Court John Brain tells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon."
Bloody teachers. All that time off in the summer and nothing to do. It's no wonder they turn to violence.
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ab
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Post by ab on Aug 10, 2011 12:08:34 GMT 1
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Aug 10, 2011 12:16:20 GMT 1
fine the paedo slag her entire pension
a teacher though...brilliant ;D
just need a few kids who attended some youth clubs that got some New Labour funding from Red Ken and my happiness will be complete
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Aug 10, 2011 12:28:16 GMT 1
That's bollocks Merk. Everyone doesn't have the same chance. Everyone is dealt widely different hands, some with hands so bad they they fold before even starting.
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