brispie
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Harsh?
Aug 17, 2011 13:43:49 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Aug 17, 2011 13:43:49 GMT 1
Probably need ABs advice on this, but I believe that the judges are being extremely harsh in their sentencing of those involved in the riots.
Nobody argued that those who had started fires or killed someone should be banged away, but 5 months for receiving a pair of shorts whilst you were actually asleep during the riots is gobsmacking. Especially when that person is a mother of 3.
Has kneejerkDave had a quiet word with them?
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ab
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Harsh?
Aug 17, 2011 14:16:52 GMT 1
Post by ab on Aug 17, 2011 14:16:52 GMT 1
I suspect that some of the more lurid sentences (eg the Cheshire Facebook Twats) will get reduced on appeal, although perhaps not by that much. The development of public attitudes seems to have been - public demands rioters be strung up, PM agrees, judges/magistrates string up rioters, everyone is surprised and says "oh, that seems a bit harsh". I'd recommend reading the sentencing remarks of the chief judge at Manchester Crown Court at www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/hhj-gilbart-qc-sentencing-remarks-r-v-carter-others.pdfParagraph 8 is particularly entertaining - he states that he'd have told the Government to fuck off (in more judicial language) had it tried to interfere in the sentencing approach he and the other judges at the Court have decided upon. The tariff they have set for the least culpable form of handling stolen goods was a range between a community sentence and 3 years in prison. Looking at the Metro report of the "shorts" case it doesn't look like an unwitting handling case (eg she was asleep and knew nothing of the shorts), but one where while she was asleep her mate went and nicked a load of stuff and she then decided she'd quite like to keep the obviously nicked shorts rather than grass up her mate or even tell her to get the stuff away from her house. www.metro.co.uk/news/872276-manchester-riots-mum-of-two-jailed-for-five-months-for-wearing-stolen-shortsHarsh, but in line with the sentencing approach in that Court. She's got no real chance at appeal because appeals from the Magistrates' Court go up to the Crown Court. Manchester Crown Court has shown that it is not minded to leniency. Although it was very fair to the woman in the case at my first link who got a suspended sentence in recognition of the fact that she had at least managed to beat heroin addiction and so should be given the chance to get over the alcoholism that led her to be out drinking on the street when the riots happened (I guess the implication is that she'd have been swigging meths in Picadilly Gardens anyway so wasn't someone who had particularly been interested in the riots).
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Aug 17, 2011 15:44:18 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Aug 17, 2011 15:44:18 GMT 1
Still harsh. Surely community sentences would have been more appropriate for some of the more minor offences. eg, get out and clean up the community that you directly or indirectly ruined. That also means less stigma attached to prisons affecting any future chance of employment.
The harsh sentencing is potentially creating further issues.
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ab
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Harsh?
Aug 17, 2011 18:32:46 GMT 1
Post by ab on Aug 17, 2011 18:32:46 GMT 1
I guess the judiciary and magistracy, rather like many people, didn't think participation in the riots or being happy to take the spoils of looting was minor in any instance. That certainly seems to be the approach taken in Manchester.
One of the suggested explanations for why there was so much rioting and looting in the places it happened (and one that was given by a number of those involved when interviewed) was the feeling that there wouldn't be that much chance of getting caught or much in the way of consequences if they did. A typical quote went along the lines "I've got no previous, I'll probably only get an ASBO". In isolation, many of the individual acts probably would have only got an ASBO, caution or minor non-custodial sentence. Added all together in the context of rioting and looting as a sort of leisure activity, done while sticking two fingers up at the man and his laws, it isn't that surprising that the man has been somewhat less lenient than expected.
Just thank your lucky stars that you are a grown up with responsibilities who could just inwardly cheer things on rather than get stuck in as you might have possibly drifted into in your youth.
I'm not sure that the future employment prospects of those who got any conviction for involvement in the rioting and looting would have been great - the conviction would still need in most cases to be disclosed and I can't see a lot of employers being overkeen on anyone who was involved.
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Aug 18, 2011 9:51:30 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Aug 18, 2011 9:51:30 GMT 1
It wouldn't have been great, but it's certainly not going to help it getting better.
I'm outraged of Bristol at the moment. I was worried about this government right from the outset, but recent noises have concerned me seriously. Even to the point of wondering which country I could move to.
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ab
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Aug 18, 2011 10:10:09 GMT 1
Post by ab on Aug 18, 2011 10:10:09 GMT 1
Where would you go that you would be able to get a job in and which was more politically to your liking?
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Harsh?
Aug 18, 2011 11:16:22 GMT 1
Post by AndyM on Aug 18, 2011 11:16:22 GMT 1
Jersey has a vacancy for a stabby youth
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Aug 18, 2011 12:44:36 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Aug 18, 2011 12:44:36 GMT 1
I've racked my brains AB and am still none the wiser!
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merkin
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Harsh?
Aug 18, 2011 13:24:23 GMT 1
Post by merkin on Aug 18, 2011 13:24:23 GMT 1
community service - are you having a fucking laugh?
soft sentences or even total ignorance to crime is what has brought us to shit tip places in the first place
this is what i don't understand brispo - as a self confessed bad one who has probably dished out slappings and the odd knifing to people who look at you funny, you seem happy for people who would cause absolute havoc in a city centre to spend a couple of hours clearing trees from a field in the fucking sunshine.
you are off ur fucking tits
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Aug 18, 2011 16:44:44 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Aug 18, 2011 16:44:44 GMT 1
This is exactly what I argued right from the outset. Don't lump all of the rioters together. They all did different things, were there for different reasons and made different choices. The ones that killed, injured or caused serious damage should be dealt with appropriately. The others shouldn't be going to prison.
It's an absolute joke in my opinion. It doesn't show that we are being strong, it shows that we are being weak by pandering to irrational fears.
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daleylama
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Harsh?
Aug 19, 2011 11:35:57 GMT 1
Post by daleylama on Aug 19, 2011 11:35:57 GMT 1
Are they fuck as like too harsh.
Sentencing was previously too soft and this is merely a natural allignment of the law with what is right and good and proper. It is mere coincidence that this is happening at the same time that rioters are being dealt with.
If it was an allignment with kneejerkdave then they'd all have been shot already, without trial and then been conscripted into the national service on the front line in Helman or such zones.
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Harsh?
Aug 19, 2011 12:50:22 GMT 1
Post by AndyM on Aug 19, 2011 12:50:22 GMT 1
There should be a mandatory jail sentence for spelling alignment with 2 ls.
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daleylama
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Harsh?
Aug 19, 2011 13:05:36 GMT 1
Post by daleylama on Aug 19, 2011 13:05:36 GMT 1
Fuck off you pilock.
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Harsh?
Aug 22, 2011 10:21:41 GMT 1
Post by GroveR on Aug 22, 2011 10:21:41 GMT 1
it shows that we are being weak by pandering to irrational fears. Enough! By the powers invested in me by tabloid-reading imbeciles, I pronounce you guilty of liberalismophilia.
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Harsh?
Aug 25, 2011 12:49:27 GMT 1
Post by markelt on Aug 25, 2011 12:49:27 GMT 1
There is a thread on the Warrington Guardian reflecting this argument because the local moron who started a Facebook page got 4 years. As usual it veers off into something about the council asking people to take down flags to avoid offence to queer muslims. Anybody caught even using the word alignment on there would be viewed as suspiciously interlectewal.
Personally I think the only response to anybody arguing about the severity of the sentences is 'tough shit'. So, brispie - tough shit.
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Harsh?
Aug 25, 2011 12:58:48 GMT 1
Post by markelt on Aug 25, 2011 12:58:48 GMT 1
PS for Botz
Ever noticed how often little shitbags are described in court nowadays as suffering from ADHD? It was the defence in the link you posted last week about that teenage arsonist and sure enough every time I read about some little yob stabbing somebody, robbing somebody or kicking the shit out of somebody there it is again. Would it be lawful for the clerk of the court to administer a chinese burn each time a defence lawyer tries to pull the ADHD card?
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ab
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Harsh?
Aug 25, 2011 14:46:56 GMT 1
Post by ab on Aug 25, 2011 14:46:56 GMT 1
In one of her more lucid interludes an ex-girlfriend of mine, Mad Lindsay, who was a special needs teacher, explained to me that in most cases ADHD was just a medical diagnosis for the common condition of being an arsehole.
I'm not entirely unconvinced that defence lawyers don't use the ADHD card because they have been specifically instructed to do so and in the knowledge that it is shorthand for "arsehole" in the mind of the sentencer. Somewhat like the genuine abbreviations in GP notes when they were hand written of "NFN" (Normal for Norfolk), "FLK" (Funny Looking Kid), "GOOMS" (Get out of my surgery), and "GOOMSN" (Get out of my surgery now).
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Harsh?
Aug 25, 2011 15:29:00 GMT 1
Post by markelt on Aug 25, 2011 15:29:00 GMT 1
I've twice seen people questioning the very existence of ADHD recently. One was on one of those cool RSA animate lectures. The other Jon Ronson in The Psychopath Test. I'm with you on the arsehole thing. If you see what I mean.
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Harsh?
Aug 25, 2011 15:30:16 GMT 1
Post by markelt on Aug 25, 2011 15:30:16 GMT 1
Was Mad Lindsay a Special Needs Teacher or a Special Needs Teacher? Or both?
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ab
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Aug 25, 2011 15:39:21 GMT 1
Post by ab on Aug 25, 2011 15:39:21 GMT 1
She taught mongs. Well, mainly spoilt brats whose parents could afford to send them to a private mong academy.
Markelt's law applied to an extent, but eventually got overwhelmed by the downsides of being absolutely bonkers. And from Wigan.
I must get hold of the Psychopath Test.
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daleylama
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Harsh?
Aug 25, 2011 19:48:32 GMT 1
Post by daleylama on Aug 25, 2011 19:48:32 GMT 1
A bonkers woman from Wigan?
Was her mum called Penny?
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 9:57:24 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Sept 2, 2011 9:57:24 GMT 1
I thought better of you Marky mark. I really did.
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Bernie
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 10:15:23 GMT 1
Post by Bernie on Sept 2, 2011 10:15:23 GMT 1
Like most of us, you use "thought better of you" to mean "thought you thought more like me". The "tough shit" defence is really quite robust* - looting is frowned on for some very time-tested and sensible reasons. Try it in the US and you'll get shot, either by the PO-lees or some dude in a vest with a shotgun who is defending his "store". Quite right too. And it doesn't really matter if you looted a bottle of water or a Ford Mondeo, same as it doesn't matter if you murdered a small child or a great big fat northerner like Elt. Well, OK, some clemency should probably be introduced for murdering northerners and fat people as it improves the wider society, but you get my drift I hope.
*however - applying it to some dick saying some stuff on some stupid website, obviously I don't think that should ever be a crime ever. (Counts Denbo seconds).
Additionally, if want to blame ADHD for you crimes, then welcome to the special "coping with ADHD" programme at Broadmoor.
Oh, and you were a right little c*** when you were younger, going by what you've told us. You may have been quiet, but that's what the neighbours said about Dennis Nilson didn't they?
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 12:01:29 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Sept 2, 2011 12:01:29 GMT 1
What is how I was as a kid got to do with this? I was no different to cultural norm of where I grew up.
There are degrees of nicking, the same as there are degrees of murder. Or are you saying that my 11 year old self nicking a pack of football stickers is the same as Ronnie Biggs et al nicking millions?
I never argued that the scrotes that actually personally injured someone or set fire to something that could have injured someone shouldn't have it coming to them, because they should.
And of course I meant thought more like me. What else would I have meant?
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Bernie
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 12:34:13 GMT 1
Post by Bernie on Sept 2, 2011 12:34:13 GMT 1
What you were like as a kid/cultural norms perhaps goes someway to explaining your (often weird) attitude. Hey, you brought it up in this context, not me!
I maintain that looting is looting, it's not the same as nicking. Though there is something to be said for treating all nickers the same. (Denbo second counter started again). And arson is arson too - it's still arson even if it doesn't endanger life.
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 12:49:23 GMT 1
Post by markelt on Sept 2, 2011 12:49:23 GMT 1
For once Bernie is right. What we saw was exactly how many people would let their whole world burn for a pair of fucking shoes and an iPod, not just kids nicking stuff from Woolies. As soon as it became apparent that their whole attitude when caught was that they would just get a slap on the wrist anyway so it was worth it, the approach had to be to make them squeal.
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 13:08:44 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Sept 2, 2011 13:08:44 GMT 1
Fucking hell. When did you become merk?
Did you expect them to go. Ooh it's a riot, lets have a go. Ooh look, a pair of trainers I can have for fre, but I couldn't possibly do that until I stop and try and put this fire out.
Nicking is still only nicking. It didn't directly hurt anyone and neither does setting fire to a wheelie bin.
This whole thing seems to have completely screwed up peoples perspectives.
Bernie - I grew up a mining town, which was always inward looking and then the pits closed down in my mid to late teens followed shortly by the worse recession for 60 years, so it wasn't all mummy and daddy taking you to the local riding school, followed by a trip to the local michelin starred pub as a special treat.
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Bernie
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 13:31:47 GMT 1
Post by Bernie on Sept 2, 2011 13:31:47 GMT 1
I think the point is that people have to learn that helping yourself to other people's hard-earned (getting it "for free") is wrong and punishable. Especially when done en-masse during or after a riot, natural disaster etc.
Leaving aside that fact that looting isn't nicking anymore than stabbing someone is surgery, a shopkeeper who had their entire stock nicked and is now looking at bankruptcy and homelessness looks pretty hurt to me.
At least you scabs had the wages earned from working while South Wales was showing solidarity. Anyway, my dad grew up poorer than you can imagine, and he's considerably more decent than I am.
Cuntish behaviour is the result of thinking you can get away with behaving like a c***. All power to your elbow for having rejected that behaviour.
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brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 14:07:03 GMT 1
Post by brispie on Sept 2, 2011 14:07:03 GMT 1
I bet if you ask your dad he did some cuntish things in his day. As I did and most people I grew up with. Some got caught. Some got a slap on the wrist. Most didn't. Most have now gone on to be respectable citizens. With a stretch inside this would have been less likely to happen.
If the shopkeeper wasn't covered he's an idiot (or the insurance system).
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ab
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Harsh?
Sept 2, 2011 14:17:50 GMT 1
Post by ab on Sept 2, 2011 14:17:50 GMT 1
Did you expect them to go. Ooh it's a riot, lets have a go. Ooh look, a pair of trainers I can have for fre, but I couldn't possibly do that until I stop and try and put this fire out. No, but I think there was a divide between the majority of people, even poor people who are feeling like the world is pretty shit at the moment, who stayed at home and were worried about what was going on to trash the area they lived in and the minority who thought "ooh it's a riot, better go and have a look" and then decided when they were there that it wouldn't hurt to join in because they'd probably get away with it. :nopity: If your neighbours got burgled, would you think it OK to help yourself to a few bits and pieces that the burglars hadn't bothered with before the Police got there? After all, no-one would be hurt by it and your neighbours would be claiming on the insurance anyway. In the excitement would you think it OK not to bother calling the police yourself as that would be an unconscionable distraction from the thrill of the little bit of theft facilitated by someone else's burglary? Would you think it OK if that was your neighbour's attitude to you? Or would you suddenly decide you didn't really want to live next door to people like that?
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