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Post by HuddsTerrier on Apr 9, 2013 10:05:08 GMT 1
For me like all politicians she did some good and some bad things, without getting into the more emotive topics I think the policy of allowing tenants to buy their councils house was a great idea, getting the EU rebate was again a good thing IMO, equally I feel some of the privatisation was a good thing (BT) but laterly I think some of the other privatisation went too far (e.g. transport) and Poll Tax idea was an awful idea
All I can say is that I'm glad I didn't live in the 70's, happy I don't remember the early 80's and was lucky to grow up in the 90's when things seemed a lot less turbulent
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 10:13:40 GMT 1
I don't really care about her to be honest but I am glad people who hated her in life are not afraid to say they still hate her in death. Hate it when you have to pretend to like someone cos they died Good point. I despised Princess Diana when she was alive and got pilloried when I didn't change my tune when she snuffed it. |
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Post by artysid on Apr 9, 2013 10:17:32 GMT 1
The 70's was the greatest period to live through for most of us. You have to take most of the doom and gloom propaganda with a pinch of salt.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 10:22:16 GMT 1
The 70's was the greatest period to live through for most of us. You have to take most of the doom and gloom propaganda with a pinch of salt. Would swap the 80s for the 70s in a heartbeat. UTT |
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Post by OldRastrickian on Apr 9, 2013 10:32:13 GMT 1
Without wanting to insult anyone, I was born in 1979 a month after Thatcher came to power so I don't really remember too much of the 80's, but I like to try and look at things objectively. So two questions really 1. If Thatchers was so disliked why did she win three General elections? (More than any PM in the modern era). Then after she left office the Tories went onto to win a forth election? Clearly the majority kept re-electing her and also elected her successor - so the majority must have approved of her manifesto, and that support seemingly continued for years even after the Miners strike and Falklands 2. If Mining was still viable why didn't the private sector step in - like they did with all the other privatised industries in the 1980's? Like I say I don't want to cause offence, because I absolutely get the personal suffering caused by the closure of the pits, but to be honest I don't get why if she was so unpopular she kept getting reelected and if mining was so viable why so few of the pits were saved Good questions. What's been ignored in this thread is the fact that millions of working class people voted for Thatcher's Tories......people sick to the back teeth of the ruination being brought on them by the irresponsible, wrecking excesses of many trade unions, who also controlled the Labour Party. Her sale of council houses was also very popular with tenants. What's also been overlooked is the fact that mining had been contracting for years prior to Thatcher coming to power....I believe it contracted at a faster rate under the Labour administration prior to her government. It was falling because demand was falling (eg the railways shrinking, whilst also converting to diesel power), then N Sea gas sounded its death knell. Deep mining is ludicrously expensive....I recall it was cheaper for Drax to use open cast coal from S Africa than Yorkshire coal. Today's mining industry here is not viable....it's crippled by the pension liabilities it inherited from the public sector. Much of the easy open cast has gone......there's a huge amount of deep coal remaining, but I think you'll find the private sector will only be interested in gassifying it in situ, not mining it. |
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Post by Scissett Terrier! on Apr 9, 2013 10:44:31 GMT 1
For me like all politicians she did some good and some bad things, without getting into the more emotive topics I think the policy of allowing tenants to buy their councils house was a great idea, getting the EU rebate was again a good thing IMO, equally I feel some of the privatisation was a good thing (BT) but laterly I think some of the other privatisation went too far (e.g. transport) and Poll Tax idea was an awful idea All I can say is that I'm glad I didn't live in the 70's, happy I don't remember the early 80's and was lucky to grow up in the 90's when things seemed a lot less turbulent people seem to confuse the transport issue, she never dared do the railways and when Major did do it it was a huge mistake. no railway in the history of the world has every made a profit (despite what network rail claim), its simply just too expensive to do and the technology still isnt there to make it cheap enough even though its incredible what we can do now. IMO we would be better off with a fully public railway but run under the same regulation and pressure network rail get now for the infrastructure by the ORR. In infrastructure terms it isnt brillaint yet but its a hell of alot better than BR and privatisation, Network Rail is one of the best things labour did and its a shame these clowns seem to be heading down giving it to corporates again when the rolling stock should be coming the other way either into network rail or into a rolling stock train operating company owned/run the same way as NR. In fact i'd like to see the NHS go the same way and be run as a private company limited by govermnet gaurentee, it forces private sector behaviour and stops a huge amount of waste and bullshit although some still excists as in every large operation. |
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Apr 9, 2013 11:17:04 GMT 1
For me like all politicians she did some good and some bad things, without getting into the more emotive topics I think the policy of allowing tenants to buy their councils house was a great idea, getting the EU rebate was again a good thing IMO, equally I feel some of the privatisation was a good thing (BT) but laterly I think some of the other privatisation went too far (e.g. transport) and Poll Tax idea was an awful idea All I can say is that I'm glad I didn't live in the 70's, happy I don't remember the early 80's and was lucky to grow up in the 90's when things seemed a lot less turbulent people seem to confuse the transport issue, she never dared do the railways and when Major did do it it was a huge mistake. no railway in the history of the world has every made a profit (despite what network rail claim), its simply just too expensive to do and the technology still isnt there to make it cheap enough even though its incredible what we can do now. IMO we would be better off with a fully public railway but run under the same regulation and pressure network rail get now for the infrastructure by the ORR. In infrastructure terms it isnt brillaint yet but its a hell of alot better than BR and privatisation, Network Rail is one of the best things labour did and its a shame these clowns seem to be heading down giving it to corporates again when the rolling stock should be coming the other way either into network rail or into a rolling stock train operating company owned/run the same way as NR. In fact i'd like to see the NHS go the same way and be run as a private company limited by govermnet gaurentee, it forces private sector behaviour and stops a huge amount of waste and bullshit although some still excists as in every large operation. I guess my point on transport is that it's a pre-requisite for getting people out to work, connecting communities and providing mobility to the elderly - it's really not on pricing people off the trains, or watching petrol prices go through the roof without offering a cheap alternative. Travelling to work is in effect a tax on employment, i.e. I pay £200 a month just in fuel getting to work. So while the Government want to make work pay, they may want to look at tax breaks for communte related travel I think we're making similar points (and I agree with your opinion on the NHS btw). Personally I would be ok with subsidising a proper transport network, but absolutely agree with your point that there maybe some mid ground in terms of private sector input/ investment |
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Post by artysid on Apr 9, 2013 11:21:25 GMT 1
few interesting facts on post war voting patterns - firstly % of vote, second numbers of votes in millions
% Con Labour
1945 36 50 Lab win
1950 40 46 Lab win
1951 48 49 Con win
1955 50 46 Con win
1959 49 44 Con win
1964 43 44 Lab win
1966 42 48 Lab win
1970 46 43 Con win
1974 feb 38 37 Con win
1974 oct 36 39 Lab win
1979 44 37 Con win
1983 42 28 Con win
1987 42 31 Con win
1992 42 34 Con win
1997 31 43 Lab win
2001 32 41 Lab win
2005 32 35 Lab win
2010 36 29 Con win
Millions Con Labour
1945 8.7 12 Lab win
1950 11.5 13.2 Lab win
1951 12.6 13.9 Con win
1955 13.3 12.4 Con win
1959 13.7 12.2 Con win
1964 12 12.2 Lab win
1966 11.4 13 Lab win
1970 13.1 12.2 Con win
1974 feb 11.9 11.6 Con win
1974 oct 10.5 11.5 Lab win
1979 13.7 11.5 Con win
1983 13.7 11.5 Con win
1987 13.7 10 Con win
1992 14 11.6 Con win
1997 9.6 13.5 Lab win
2001 8.3 10.7 Lab win
2005 8.8 9.6 Lab win
2010 8.8 9.6 Con win
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Post by Scissett Terrier! on Apr 9, 2013 11:29:16 GMT 1
For me like all politicians she did some good and some bad things, without getting into the more emotive topics I think the policy of allowing tenants to buy their councils house was a great idea, getting the EU rebate was again a good thing IMO, equally I feel some of the privatisation was a good thing (BT) but laterly I think some of the other privatisation went too far (e.g. transport) and Poll Tax idea was an awful idea All I can say is that I'm glad I didn't live in the 70's, happy I don't remember the early 80's and was lucky to grow up in the 90's when things seemed a lot less turbulent people seem to confuse the transport issue, she never dared do the railways and when Major did do it it was a huge mistake. no railway in the history of the world has every made a profit (despite what network rail claim), its simply just too expensive to do and the technology still isnt there to make it cheap enough even though its incredible what we can do now. IMO we would be better off with a fully public railway but run under the same regulation and pressure network rail get now for the infrastructure by the ORR. In infrastructure terms it isnt brillaint yet but its a hell of alot better than BR and privatisation, Network Rail is one of the best things labour did and its a shame these clowns seem to be heading down giving it to corporates again when the rolling stock should be coming the other way either into network rail or into a rolling stock train operating company owned/run the same way as NR. In fact i'd like to see the NHS go the same way and be run as a private company limited by govermnet gaurentee, it forces private sector behaviour and stops a huge amount of waste and bullshit although some still excists as in every large operation. The NHS is a total drain on the tax payer, i believe in free health care for all but jesus throwing money at idiots isnt the way to do it. Huge changes are required starting with the break up of local health authorties which i guess 80% of what they do could be done centrally saving millions to start with and having 6-10 regions all working to the same rules and sharing best practices and a central top management. One other issue is also procurment, its shocking. Companies add a right mark up to sell to public services, i once got bollocked for buying a kettle for £9.99 can claiming an expense of which to buy the same kettle via our procuement system was £49.99 (yes my manager of the time was a tit). If thats the mark up on a kettle what goes on elsewhere? It will be even worse in the NHS! |
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 9, 2013 11:30:38 GMT 1
A very fair account of MT's life & effects on the UK as PM www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-editorialit ends withn this She was an exceptionally consequential leader, in many ways a very great woman. There should be no dancing on her grave but it is right there is no state funeral either. Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed, which together shackle far more of the human spirit than they ever set free. |
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Post by Macduff on Apr 9, 2013 12:21:43 GMT 1
And just a quick point re the Falklands. To hear some people talk its as if Argentina invaded Dorset. At the time of the invasion (but fixed quickly and quietly afterwards) the islanders didnt have the right to come and live in Britain, so the last thing they can be described as being is British.
Hated her and her ilk, but partying for her demise is a bit ridiculous.
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Post by OldRastrickian on Apr 9, 2013 12:25:35 GMT 1
"Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed....." A predictable and amusing summation from that repository of left-wing bullshit.
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Post by thrice on Apr 9, 2013 12:33:54 GMT 1
He will be on about Child Allowance no doubt. He would be right too, it is ridiculous that we all get it when you think about it. The price of a "fair & equal" society. Do other countries have such welfare? I very much doubt it. And that is before we even start to consider the feckless. Child allowance is the only thing I have ever claimed off this country in all my working life and I have been working since 16. I have paid thousands upon thousands in tax and NI whilst scroungers rake in benefits and have a bigger telly than I could ever afford. If you don't mind I feel like I deserve the 83 quid a month contribution I get towards the well being of my child. I am sure that you do deserve it, as do I (and I have no intention of returning it Bolton). However surely child allowance paid equally to all regardless of their means demonstrates the monster that the welfare system has become. As noted earlier other countries have systems in place that do not place such drains upon the national purse. The welfare system was not established to help fund you & I raising our families. It was established to help & assist the most needy not all & sundry. Perhaps if we had more efficient systems in place we could all pay in less (to help those who really need it) without needing to take out so much ourselves. Our welfare system is both the pride of this nation and also its greatest burden! |
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Post by malcolmbrown on Apr 9, 2013 12:34:38 GMT 1
"Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed....." A predictable and amusing summation from that repository of left-wing bullshit. It may be predictable, but that's because it's true. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 12:35:21 GMT 1
"Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed....." A predictable and amusing summation from that repository of left-wing bullshit. Try keep it dignified please! Doesn't the fact that her policies divided the nation and caused misery (and worse) for many thousands bother you at all? Or are you just another WUM taking the piss out of everybody and every circumstance? |
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Post by Grandfather Berty of Cleck on Apr 9, 2013 12:36:45 GMT 1
Thatcher used to come out with the 'freedom of choice' line.
She then gave pensioners the choice of eating or heating.
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Post by thrice on Apr 9, 2013 12:37:24 GMT 1
few interesting facts on post war voting patterns - firstly % of vote, second numbers of votes in millions % Con Labour 1945 36 50 Lab win 1950 40 46 Lab win 1951 48 49 Con win 1955 50 46 Con win 1959 49 44 Con win 1964 43 44 Lab win 1966 42 48 Lab win 1970 46 43 Con win 1974 feb 38 37 Con win 1974 oct 36 39 Lab win 1979 44 37 Con win 1983 42 28 Con win 1987 42 31 Con win 1992 42 34 Con win 1997 31 43 Lab win 2001 32 41 Lab win 2005 32 35 Lab win 2010 36 29 Con win Millions Con Labour 1945 8.7 12 Lab win 1950 11.5 13.2 Lab win 1951 12.6 13.9 Con win 1955 13.3 12.4 Con win 1959 13.7 12.2 Con win 1964 12 12.2 Lab win 1966 11.4 13 Lab win 1970 13.1 12.2 Con win 1974 feb 11.9 11.6 Con win 1974 oct 10.5 11.5 Lab win 1979 13.7 11.5 Con win 1983 13.7 11.5 Con win 1987 13.7 10 Con win 1992 14 11.6 Con win 1997 9.6 13.5 Lab win 2001 8.3 10.7 Lab win 2005 8.8 9.6 Lab win 2010 8.8 9.6 Con win The Conservatives are clearly the natural party of government in the UK. God damn those millions of working class tories! |
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Post by canterburyterrier on Apr 9, 2013 12:39:10 GMT 1
For me like all politicians she did some good and some bad things, without getting into the more emotive topics I think the policy of allowing tenants to buy their councils house was a great idea, Whilst I think everyone has a right to own there own property - they were sold on the cheap, Westminster council even sold them illegally. More importantly the money wasn't used to build more housing stock. This situation has lead to the state we are in now. Not enough cheap housing for the population. People taking out bigger and bigger mortgages to buy smaller and smaller houses. Landlords charging rent that no one on a below average income can afford so it has to be subsidised by the taxpayer. My sympathies go to her family and to all the people who suffered as a consequence of her policies. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Apr 9, 2013 12:41:17 GMT 1
Here we go again Captain - another round of silly insults! You really do lose all credibility when you start that game! The fact is my mate was a surveillance specialist in the Para' (he's a photographer). He and five others, cartographers etc were parachuted on to the island just as the first Argentinian troops landed there. He was trained by the SAS and can look after himself (shall we say?) Their mission was to map the Island, particularly locations where troops could land. And yes, believe it or not, the British Army did not have any surveillance maps. Why would they the place was one huge sheep farm? Thats not what you said. You said the army and the government didn't have any maps of the falklands. thats a bit different from not having maps of potential landing sites! If your saying no one had a map of the falklands, then no Ill not believe that. Im sure we had maps of the coast of france in 1944, but still had to send commandos over to study potential landing sites. and please don't start with the pious holier than thou, hypocricy about insults- YOU have insulted many people randomly on here, so doesn't wash at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 12:51:18 GMT 1
How come a preaching pacifist can be friends with a soldier?
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 9, 2013 13:15:28 GMT 1
Another thing I do admire her for, bearing in mind she died of a ''stroke'' at 87 years old, was the fact that she could still get an erection at that age!!
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Post by OldRastrickian on Apr 9, 2013 13:41:12 GMT 1
"Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed....." A predictable and amusing summation from that repository of left-wing bullshit. Try keep it dignified please! Doesn't the fact that her policies divided the nation and caused misery (and worse) for many thousands bother you at all? Or are you just another WUM taking the piss out of everybody and every circumstance? A pretty stupid response. If my memory serves me correctly, didn't the Bible condemn selfishness and greed? And wasn't that in the Before Thatcher era? And has there yet been a government which didn't divide a nation? Isn't that what party politics is fundamentally all about? And are you, and those like you, too stupid to recognise, let alone admit to, the immense suffering being inflicted across British society by the left-wing shitbrains who ran the country (into the ground) prior to Thatcher? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 13:42:08 GMT 1
Here we go again Captain - another round of silly insults! You really do lose all credibility when you start that game! The fact is my mate was a surveillance specialist in the Para' (he's a photographer). He and five others, cartographers etc were parachuted on to the island just as the first Argentinian troops landed there. He was trained by the SAS and can look after himself (shall we say?) Their mission was to map the Island, particularly locations where troops could land. And yes, believe it or not, the British Army did not have any surveillance maps. Why would they the place was one huge sheep farm? Thats not what you said. You said the army and the government didn't have any maps of the falklands. thats a bit different from not having maps of potential landing sites! If your saying no one had a map of the falklands, then no Ill not believe that. Im sure we had maps of the coast of france in 1944, but still had to send commandos over to study potential landing sites. and please don't start with the pious holier than thou, hypocricy about insults- YOU have insulted many people randomly on here, so doesn't wash at all. I came to the conclusion some time ago that you just like arguing (particularly with me it seems) and being rude to people generally, which is something you appear to do if they don't agree with your views! You very quickly resort to petty insults which is very frustrating, Being kind, I guess it's because you can do it behind the buffer your keyboard! I don't doubt I have retaliated in the past but how does that make me a hypocrite? We socialist have feelings too and being insulted by someone who I don't know is completely unfathomable to me! If I have offended you by anything I have said now or in the past, I wholeheartedly apologise. I hope you are able to accept that? To be clear on the matter you question me on! I was told by my mate that the British Army & Government did not have maps of the Falklands and that his remit was to focus on the potential landing points but they did indeed map the entire Island as well. I spoke to him again this morning to confirm this, which he did. If you don't believe this it's up to you obviously but that's what I told me! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 15:13:43 GMT 1
I was braught up with the belief that Thatch was the Anti-Christ and i still believe that now shes dead. My opinion hasn't changed. On the little i know, the mines had to be closed eventually but i think the way in which it was done was dreadful. Those x-million men should of been invested in and re-educated with new skills/trades, not left out on the streets without a penny to rub together. Discussing the chance of leaving Liverpool to rot and cut off all funds to it is why up north generally she will be hated and her death celebrated. Make no mistake, london got rich and the Northern working class got poorer. Just like now, 'our own' were just left to rot, rather than made into industrialists. For that, in my circle, she will never be forgiven. And just on Mandella, surely if you sell weapons to 'terrorists' that kill your own people, doesn't that make you a terrorist? ... debate for another day!!
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Post by cj01 on Apr 9, 2013 15:23:10 GMT 1
Try keep it dignified please! Doesn't the fact that her policies divided the nation and caused misery (and worse) for many thousands bother you at all? Or are you just another WUM taking the piss out of everybody and every circumstance? A pretty stupid response. If my memory serves me correctly, didn't the Bible condemn selfishness and greed? And wasn't that in the Before Thatcher era? And has there yet been a government which didn't divide a nation? Isn't that what party politics is fundamentally all about? And are you, and those like you, too stupid to recognise, let alone admit to, the immense suffering being inflicted across British society by the left-wing shitbrains who ran the country (into the ground) prior to Thatcher? Yes all governments divide the nation, by necessity given the different views held by the voting public. What I, and those like me, maintain is that no person (government) has in recent history, divided the nation like she did. Surely you must concede that whether you agree with them or not, there are huge numbers of people who dislike or hate her because of what she did and her convictions. Nobody for years before, or since, has created the level of "dislike" in the populace that she did. And if so many people feel that way, surely there must be some justification for the way they feel. Even as a Labour voter for many years I acknowledge that the unions at that time were disgraceful in the way they acted and they needed controlling. Most commentators, of whatever political views, seem to hold the view that she went too far, and that's what is the basis of that aspect of the criticism of her. She destroyed the unions so that just as they were far too powerful then, they have too little power now. It is a fine line admittedly and difficult to get the checks and balances right. She got it wrong. And in doing that, and following her free market concept of economics she devastated large tracts of of manufacturing and industrial bases. Admittedly cheap foreign competition then, as now, played a significant part, but it should be remembered that we had no control over that. Here was a Briton who was reducing our manufacturing ability, not a foreign competitor, and worse still, and hence the vitriol, she clearly didn't care. I still maintain that she did some good things but I also maintain that they are outweighed by the bad. And those "left wing" writers at the Guardian got one thing right. The recent banking crisis is an example of what happens when her ethos of no limit on what you can earn or how you do it and devil take the hindmost is allowed to grow and remain unchecked. That is a throwback to pre - Labour Party days when the rich and powerful were able to increase their wealth and power without any regard whatsoever for the poor and the powerless and without any regard for any who suffered as a result of their entrepeneurship. Whilst I accept that the Guardian article does have a left wing slant to it and phrases some things in a way I don't agree with or like, fundamentally I think it is an accurate portrayal and the facts they quote in criticising her are, I believe, indisputable. |
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Post by Grandfather Berty of Cleck on Apr 9, 2013 15:34:16 GMT 1
Payback time.
Thatcher's last wish was to be cremated,
but there is not enough coal to do it !
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Post by trailingleg on Apr 9, 2013 15:34:46 GMT 1
I can't understand why this multi-million pound funeral has to be funded by the tax payer, and not by the private sector. After all, she hated state subsidy with a passion, and how many others get a funeral 'benefit'?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 15:35:22 GMT 1
legacies of thatch (trying to be even handed)
all utilities privatised and sold off to small investors - eventually bought by foreign companies to make massive profits.
Railways sold off - privatisation leading to the decimation of the maintenance structure and making many rich people richer overnight. Fragmentation leading to the huge prices of today.
Mines closed.....guess what? Largest coal reserves in europe. Love him or hate him, scargill was right all along. I dont like the fella but foreign energy is more expensive and that is a fact.
A sustained attack on northern working class people and areas.
The invention of the Yuppie.
The Poll Tax Riots
Abolition of school milk.
Ben F..kin Elton.
Spitting Image.
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Post by Scissett Terrier! on Apr 9, 2013 15:53:03 GMT 1
legacies of thatch (trying to be even handed) all utilities privatised and sold off to small investors - eventually bought by foreign companies to make massive profits. Railways sold off - privatisation leading to the decimation of the maintenance structure and making many rich people richer overnight. Fragmentation leading to the huge prices of today.Mines closed.....guess what? Largest coal reserves in europe. Love him or hate him, scargill was right all along. I dont like the fella but foreign energy is more expensive and that is a fact. A sustained attack on northern working class people and areas. The invention of the Yuppie. The Poll Tax Riots Abolition of school milk. Ben F..kin Elton. Spitting Image. I hate the women but she didnt do this, she knew it would be a mistake and the death of her. John Major did the railways as it was the only thin left except the post office and the NHS and as per my earlier posts what a cock up it turned out to be. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 16:00:40 GMT 1
Gave me nightmares...
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