Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 16, 2023 8:10:34 GMT 1
High should have followed the same path that O'brien did, a full season in League 2 getting used to playing week in, week out and developing properly a couple of seasons ago. We have utterly buggered up any chance he might have had at playing at a decent level. He did get that chance though at Shrewsbury. He was just awful for them too and not good enough. Was he awful? I recall at the time he was doing ok, but the side as a whole were not, and the new manager preferred experience. |
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Post by tepidterrier on Aug 16, 2023 8:46:25 GMT 1
I still think High is an alright system player. He'd fit in quite well in a Russell Martin type team, he does the basics reasonably well, and his positioning is good. He just falls in that unfortunate niche where he's neither strong enough to work as a scrappy midfielder, nor agile or quick on the ball enough to work as a front foot attacking midfielder. League 1 is his level at the minute, he needs time there to learn his craft, probably on a permanent. And this is from someone who's been very fair minded about High throughout his time with us. Since I first saw Austerfield play in pre-season a few years ago I've always preferred him though, if he kicks on he could be like Jon Russell minus the lethargy. That "unfortunate niche" is a good analogy. Probably a better way of describing why I thought he'd come good than I gave. If you could sacrifice one part of his game to improve another he might have a very good career. If he could just become "good" at one if the many things he's "ok" at, he'd be a lot better off. If he was stronger in the tackle he could be a really good defensive midfielder, because he has all the other attributes... etc I have a similar perspective on REG. Not strong enough in the air for CB, not quick enough or good enough with the ball at his feet for RB and not good enough passing range for midfield. Many other attributes in both players though. I wonder how much of that is down to how we've developed our players the last few years. Most of our young players that've got into the first team since the prem era are not quite one position and not quite another. REG, High, Koroma, Rowe, Headley, and Jackson, to name a few. |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 16, 2023 9:04:50 GMT 1
That "unfortunate niche" is a good analogy. Probably a better way of describing why I thought he'd come good than I gave. If you could sacrifice one part of his game to improve another he might have a very good career. If he could just become "good" at one if the many things he's "ok" at, he'd be a lot better off. If he was stronger in the tackle he could be a really good defensive midfielder, because he has all the other attributes... etc I have a similar perspective on REG. Not strong enough in the air for CB, not quick enough or good enough with the ball at his feet for RB and not good enough passing range for midfield. Many other attributes in both players though. I wonder how much of that is down to how we've developed our players the last few years. Most of our young players that've got into the first team since the prem era are not quite one position and not quite another. REG, High, Koroma, Rowe, Headley, and Jackson, to name a few. I hadn't thought of that, but you may be on to something there. I can certainly see the value of versatility. For its own sake but also because you might learn more about your favoured position - or develop useful skills in that position - by playing somewhere else. Alternatively you might discover that your best position is not the one you thought. If Lewis O'Brien hadn't been tried in central midfield who knows what level he'd have made it to - or if he'd have made it as a pro at all? It does seem that the balance might be wrong though. Great to be an all-rounder, but it's not enough to be good at everything unless you're excellent at something . |
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Post by Porrohman on Aug 16, 2023 9:05:49 GMT 1
High should have followed the same path that O'brien did, a full season in League 2 getting used to playing week in, week out and developing properly a couple of seasons ago. We have utterly buggered up any chance he might have had at playing at a decent level. He did get that chance though at Shrewsbury. He was just awful for them too and not good enough. That chance where they sacked the manager and brought in one that completely changed their style of play from a passing game to one that bypassed midfield 🤔 |
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Post by rockwall on Aug 16, 2023 9:10:18 GMT 1
He did get that chance though at Shrewsbury. He was just awful for them too and not good enough. That chance where they sacked the manager and brought in one that completely changed their style of play from a passing game to one that bypassed midfield 🤔 If you're any good, you play. Are you saying Shrewsbury played with no central midfielders? |
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Post by bells ringing :) on Aug 16, 2023 9:12:41 GMT 1
That chance where they sacked the manager and brought in one that completely changed their style of play from a passing game to one that bypassed midfield 🤔 If you're any good, you play. Are you saying Shrewsbury played with no central midfielders? You send players out on loan, for them to play but also you send them out to overcome issues/ problems. High had that chance at both shrews/rotherham and didn't/couldn't do it.
Sometimes/ quite a lot of the time, Town struggle to admit when they have made a mistake. They then seem so pig headed and double down on the mistake, by throwing long contracts at said mistake.
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Post by Drew Peacock on Aug 16, 2023 9:13:30 GMT 1
That "unfortunate niche" is a good analogy. Probably a better way of describing why I thought he'd come good than I gave. If you could sacrifice one part of his game to improve another he might have a very good career. If he could just become "good" at one if the many things he's "ok" at, he'd be a lot better off. If he was stronger in the tackle he could be a really good defensive midfielder, because he has all the other attributes... etc I have a similar perspective on REG. Not strong enough in the air for CB, not quick enough or good enough with the ball at his feet for RB and not good enough passing range for midfield. Many other attributes in both players though. I wonder how much of that is down to how we've developed our players the last few years. Most of our young players that've got into the first team since the prem era are not quite one position and not quite another. REG, High, Koroma, Rowe, Headley, and Jackson, to name a few. Great point, seem to remember they were always playing players out of position in development matches, sure I remember Diarra playing at full back or something ridiculous. |
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Post by Drew Peacock on Aug 16, 2023 9:16:47 GMT 1
Just wondering for those that watch B team games if there's any possibility of us seeing someone else break through this season, think there's 3-4 that are around 20 years old now.
Also heard good things about Iorpenda previously, any danger of him threatening to break through?
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Post by Porrohman on Aug 16, 2023 9:19:42 GMT 1
That chance where they sacked the manager and brought in one that completely changed their style of play from a passing game to one that bypassed midfield 🤔 If you're any good, you play. Are you saying Shrewsbury played with no central midfielders? I don't know whether they did or not. Presumably you do, as you know he was awful. So, presumably, you watched them a lot during that season to know that. As someone else's pointed out, the new manager (Cotterill ?) wanted experience in the team so the young kid on loan gets left out. Colins done the same with both FB positions this season, experience over promising youth. Our best CM prospect, possibly ever, has left after being overlooked last season due to experience getting the nod because of the position the club was in. |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 16, 2023 9:21:22 GMT 1
I wonder how much of that is down to how we've developed our players the last few years. Most of our young players that've got into the first team since the prem era are not quite one position and not quite another. REG, High, Koroma, Rowe, Headley, and Jackson, to name a few. Great point, seem to remember they were always playing players out of position in development matches, sure I remember Diarra playing at full back or something ridiculous. Yeah, that one with Diarra at right back was one of the things I was thinking of. It always seemed obvious that he was an attack minded midfielder. I wonder what the aim was with putting him there. I can only imagine that it was done with a view to improving some part of his game for his midfield role, rather than a genuine belief that he would make a good fullback. |
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Post by bells ringing :) on Aug 16, 2023 9:22:42 GMT 1
If you're any good, you play. Are you saying Shrewsbury played with no central midfielders? I don't know whether they did or not. Presumably you do, as you know he was awful. So, presumably, you watched them a lot during that season to know that. As someone else's pointed out, the new manager (Cotterill ?) wanted experience in the team so the young kid on loan gets left out. Colins done the same with both FB positions this season, experience over promising youth. Our best CM prospect, possibly ever, has left after being overlooked last season due to experience getting the nod because of the position the club was in. Can i just put this out there, Camara wanted to leave first and foremost he was not pushed at all.
Camara didn't play due to attiude and applying himself in training or lack of , Warnock gave him a chance he just didn't want to know.
Warnock's repuation of not playing young players, its absoulte rubbish, the lsit of players he has given their debut over the years is ten fold.
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 16, 2023 9:32:40 GMT 1
If you're any good, you play. Are you saying Shrewsbury played with no central midfielders? I don't know whether they did or not. Presumably you do, as you know he was awful. So, presumably, you watched them a lot during that season to know that. As someone else's pointed out, the new manager (Cotterill ?) wanted experience in the team so the young kid on loan gets left out. Colins done the same with both FB positions this season, experience over promising youth. Our best CM prospect, possibly ever, has left after being overlooked last season due to experience getting the nod because of the position the club was in. High was good enough when Sam Ricketts was manager, and I'd be willing to bet a decent sum of money that Etienne Camara will play at a higher level than some of those who got in the side ahead of him last season. We were right to bring him back from Shrewsbury and IIRC he was unfortunate that Vallejo unexpectedly took his chance so well. Loan at Rotherham was too high a level at the time and perhaps he might have been better working on excelling in some part of his game in (say) Lg1 or 2. I do think for the sake of his own career he needs to move on now though. Perhaps that well worn path to Harrogate? Edit. Valid point from bluebell |
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Post by rockwall on Aug 16, 2023 9:54:55 GMT 1
If you're any good, you play. Are you saying Shrewsbury played with no central midfielders? I don't know whether they did or not. Presumably you do, as you know he was awful. So, presumably, you watched them a lot during that season to know that. As someone else's pointed out, the new manager (Cotterill ?) wanted experience in the team so the young kid on loan gets left out. Colins done the same with both FB positions this season, experience over promising youth. Our best CM prospect, possibly ever, has left after being overlooked last season due to experience getting the nod because of the position the club was in. Cotterill played other youngsters. He didn't rate High, had nothing to do with experience. |
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Post by Terrier Ramone on Aug 16, 2023 9:57:25 GMT 1
Ajax have played their young kids in all positions to improve their awareness & general all round play & understanding of a game for years. Maybe also to see how they perform out of their comfort zone, I remember Diarra playing full back one game, maybe this was the case/idea with him?
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Sparrow
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Post by Sparrow on Aug 16, 2023 10:05:39 GMT 1
I don't know whether they did or not. Presumably you do, as you know he was awful. So, presumably, you watched them a lot during that season to know that. As someone else's pointed out, the new manager (Cotterill ?) wanted experience in the team so the young kid on loan gets left out. Colins done the same with both FB positions this season, experience over promising youth. Our best CM prospect, possibly ever, has left after being overlooked last season due to experience getting the nod because of the position the club was in. Can i just put this out there, Camara wanted to leave first and foremost he was not pushed at all. Camara didn't play due to attiude and applying himself in training or lack of , Warnock gave him a chance he just didn't want to know.
Warnock's repuation of not playing young players, its absoulte rubbish, the lsit of players he has given their debut over the years is ten fold.
I think Etienne is an interesting one to look at. As much as he wanted to leave, I think he also got a bit frustrated during his time at Town. When Brahima went to Harrogate, Etienne wanted to also go out on loan and there were a good few clubs interested, but Town said no, so he stayed with the B team whilst Brahima went out and played first team football and did really, really well. Then the following summer, the club were going to Loan out Brahima, but he got injured do didn't go, but they weren't looking to send Etienne out on loan and I don't think the idea was necessarily for him to be playing for us in the first team regularly. So I think he got a bit frustrated by us not letting him go out on loan and get first team football. When you then have an Agent telling you that clubs want you for their first team, then a young lad can easily get fed up and not push himself quite as hard in training. |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Aug 16, 2023 10:25:47 GMT 1
High should have followed the same path that O'brien did, a full season in League 2 getting used to playing week in, week out and developing properly a couple of seasons ago. We have utterly buggered up any chance he might have had at playing at a decent level. He did get that chance though at Shrewsbury. He was just awful for them too and not good enough. How do you know he was awful at Shrewsbury? |
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crux
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Post by crux on Aug 16, 2023 14:26:21 GMT 1
He did get that chance though at Shrewsbury. He was just awful for them too and not good enough. How do you know he was awful at Shrewsbury? As far as I remember, he wasn't. They changed manager and the new manager wanted a different, more experienced player on loan and to do that he ended High's loan. |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Aug 16, 2023 14:38:45 GMT 1
How do you know he was awful at Shrewsbury? As far as I remember, he wasn't. They changed manager and the new manager wanted a different, more experienced player on loan and to do that he ended High's loan. Yeah my recollection was that he played a few matches early in the season for the manager that brought him in, including scoring a cracker, then that manager got sacked and his replacement wanted experience as they were at the bottom end of the table. Life is not always as simple as many people make out. |
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Sparrow
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Post by Sparrow on Aug 16, 2023 17:14:35 GMT 1
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on Aug 16, 2023 17:24:59 GMT 1
With a bench of 9 players you need a second team with a bunch of games to keep them all fit and match ready. |
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Post by Solihull Terrier on Aug 16, 2023 22:19:45 GMT 1
I'd love to think this was a well thought out strategy but there were valid reasons we ditched the academy model. It would be nice to understand the rationale of why it will be different this time around. |
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Sparrow
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Post by Sparrow on Aug 16, 2023 22:40:20 GMT 1
I'd love to think this was a well thought out strategy but there were valid reasons we ditched the academy model. It would be nice to understand the rationale of why it will be different this time around. The main 2 reasons that I can remember were the cost of running a full Academy and players being poached. So I guess the new owner will be committing more money to the Academy than DH did. Possibly his own money? On the point of players being poached, yes that can still happen, but I can’t think of a player that was poached from our Academy into a bigger clubs Academy that’s gone on to play for that team or a club higher up than us. So for me that’s a bit of a non issue really. Over the last few seasons, including this one, we’ve signed lads as scholars who’ve been at both United and City, including some who were originally with us, which we can continue to do. There’s also players that we’ve missed out on by not having the younger age groups. There’s a lad at Sheffield Wednesday U14s who’s already signed scholarship forms for when he turns 16, in 3 years time, who would more than likely have been in our Academy after he was released by a PL Academy a few seasons ago. But went to Wednesday. And of course the final thing is that all Premier League clubs have to have a full Academy. So if we have any aspirations at all to get back up to the PL and stay there, we would ultimately be required to have a full Academy. So actually, we might as well just get that sorted now Oh and this time round we now have a partnership already with Rishworth school. So if we can leverage that and include an educational package in the offer, then that could stop players being poached by the likes of City who put the kids into a boarding school |
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Post by Spike24 on Aug 17, 2023 4:40:43 GMT 1
Copied from an article I just read..
Every team in the Premier League except for Brentford and Bournemouth (Category Three) currently operates a Category One Academy. In the Championship, only Huddersfield (Category Four) - who came within a whisker of promotion 2 years ago - would fail meet the new Premier League requirements.
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Aug 17, 2023 9:11:06 GMT 1
I’d suggest a big part is the requirement for being in the PL.
Nagle may also be slightly optimistic as to the quality of players we’ll be able to get out of it.
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bigfatmonkey
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Post by bigfatmonkey on Aug 17, 2023 10:25:54 GMT 1
Is there a reason why we've only gone for Category 3?
You'd have thought given how talked up reintroducing the academy has been, we'd be aiming higher.
Or is it a case that we can only go up one level at a time?
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Aug 17, 2023 10:30:56 GMT 1
Is there a reason why we've only gone for Category 3? You'd have thought given how talked up reintroducing the academy has been, we'd be aiming higher. Or is it a case that we can only go up one level at a time? Probably cost. I seem to recall some of the stipulations for higher level academies (number of coaches etc) sounded very expensive. |
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Aug 17, 2023 10:33:58 GMT 1
A quick look at the current England squad and a lot came from smaller academies
Ramsdale, Maguire, Walker - Sheffield United
Mings - non league
Stones - Barnsley
Pope - non league
Eze - Millwall
Maddison and Wilson - Coventry
Toney - Northampton
Bowen - non league
So the smaller academies do produce good quality/ England international players
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Post by dalesterrier on Aug 17, 2023 11:22:14 GMT 1
Is there a reason why we've only gone for Category 3? You'd have thought given how talked up reintroducing the academy has been, we'd be aiming higher. Or is it a case that we can only go up one level at a time? KN said it would be initial steps to begin with so I'd imagine further moves in due course. I'm surprised tbh how young the age groups are in Cat 3 |
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Post by saintlyterrier on Aug 17, 2023 13:01:05 GMT 1
Copied from an article I just read.. Every team in the Premier League except for Brentford and Bournemouth (Category Three) currently operates a Category One Academy. In the Championship, only Huddersfield (Category Four) - who came within a whisker of promotion 2 years ago - would fail meet the new Premier League requirements. Surely the article is wrong. Southampton have an excellent academy, with products now being introduced into the first team in this Championship season. They are filtching lots of lads from Citeh, though. |
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midge
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Post by midge on Aug 17, 2023 13:08:59 GMT 1
I'd love to think this was a well thought out strategy but there were valid reasons we ditched the academy model. It would be nice to understand the rationale of why it will be different this time around. From memory DH never really liked the 'old' academy system, his view being that it cost a lot of money to run(something like £1m Pa) for what it produced- at that point O'Brien had not come through so the only real success you could point to were Smithies and Hunt? (There may have been others?) There was and still is the argument that all these big clubs poaching and that position was worsened by FPP(I think it was) where the Premier League gave EFL clubs more money but had more negotiating power on poaching academy player for less and I think this was the final straw for some clubs including Town. Has the 'new' system worked? I would say so as it seems to have produced more in a shorter time frame- Harrat, Headley, Bilokopic, Diarra, Camara, Jones, Ayina, Spencer who went straight into the new system. High, Austerfield, Jackson who were in the old system but have probably benefitted from the structure of the new system ie been given more time to prove themselves. Also would we have signed Koroma, Thomas, Russell etc under the old system!? Not sure!? Will be interesting to see what 'elements' of the B team system they will keep but there is no doubt to me that the 'return on investment' is much quicker. Will also be interesting to see how the old system will be introduced - as I have said before on here, where are you going to find 100+ kids ages 9- 16s of the quality required to start a season!? It maybe that you start with limited age groups say 9- 12s but again that will be a lot of recruitment initially and again, looking at it from a 1st team point of view, those players are years away from making a debut, if ever. In terms of what Town can do differently to recruit!? I think they are going to have to 'smooze' the parents of these kids- better communication, maybe free tickets to games to get them to choose us over bigger clubs! Amonst other things! Huge topic and a lot of work to be done IMO as you can see!! |
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