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Post by jqhtfc on Aug 17, 2023 13:43:15 GMT 1
I'd love to think this was a well thought out strategy but there were valid reasons we ditched the academy model. It would be nice to understand the rationale of why it will be different this time around. From memory DH never really liked the 'old' academy system, his view being that it cost a lot of money to run(something like £1m Pa) for what it produced- at that point O'Brien had not come through so the only real success you could point to were Smithies and Hunt? (There may have been others?) There was and still is the argument that all these big clubs poaching and that position was worsened by FPP(I think it was) where the Premier League gave EFL clubs more money but had more negotiating power on poaching academy player for less and I think this was the final straw for some clubs including Town. Has the 'new' system worked? I would say so as it seems to have produced more in a shorter time frame- Harrat, Headley, Bilokopic, Diarra, Camara, Jones, Ayina, Spencer who went straight into the new system. High, Austerfield, Jackson who were in the old system but have probably benefitted from the structure of the new system ie been given more time to prove themselves. Also would we have signed Koroma, Thomas, Russell etc under the old system!? Not sure!? Will be interesting to see what 'elements' of the B team system they will keep but there is no doubt to me that the 'return on investment' is much quicker. Will also be interesting to see how the old system will be introduced - as I have said before on here, where are you going to find 100+ kids ages 9- 16s of the quality required to start a season!? It maybe that you start with limited age groups say 9- 12s but again that will be a lot of recruitment initially and again, looking at it from a 1st team point of view, those players are years away from making a debut, if ever. In terms of what Town can do differently to recruit!? I think they are going to have to 'smooze' the parents of these kids- better communication, maybe free tickets to games to get them to choose us over bigger clubs! Amonst other things! Huge topic and a lot of work to be done IMO as you can see!! Bilokopic, diarra, camara, ayina, Jones and spencer could all have been brought in during the old system though much like billing was. |
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Sparrow
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Post by Sparrow on Aug 17, 2023 13:43:50 GMT 1
Finding 100+ kids of the right quality will indeed be a challenge as you rightly say Midge, however, I don't think an insurmountable one.
Every year there are loads of kids at all ages released from Academies. The likes of United, City, Liverpool etc etc will be releasing loads of kids that we could potentially take. Kids who are not good enough for them, but good enough for us. You can add the likes of Everton, Burnley, Sheff United, etc to that list as well. And not just from their actual Academy. Clubs like these will have loads of talented kids in their Development Centres who are not good enough for their Academy, but good enough for ours.
Then you've got 'smaller clubs' Academy's. Such as Oldham, Rochdale, Halifax, who may well have a few gems in there that we can poach ourselves. Plus there's probably kids at the likes of Barnsley, Sheff Wednesday, Blackburn, Leeds etc, that would prefer to be in Town's Academy that we could also poach.
Then you've got talented kids in grassroots that are not yet in Academies. There's a number of kids who at the moment are probably just below Academy level and can't get in anywhere due to established players. However, with a bit of polishing, they could become gems.....Remember Brahima Diarra was never in an Academy as such before joining Town. Neither was Chrichlow and others that we've signed from Grassroots at older ages that have gone on to be successful. So with Open Trials and building up a decent scouting network during this season, you can probably find a lot of talent in Grassroots.
There are also a number of Apps nowadays that clubs are using to successfully find players for their Academies, such as Tonsser, Skouted etc.
So whilst I do agree that it wont be easy and will take a lot of work from all concerned to fill an Academy for next season, using the above methods I feel it can be successfully achieved.
It'll certainly be an interesting one to watch
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Aug 17, 2023 13:57:11 GMT 1
Finding 100+ kids of the right quality will indeed be a challenge as you rightly say Midge, however, I don't think an insurmountable one. Every year there are loads of kids at all ages released from Academies. The likes of United, City, Liverpool etc etc will be releasing loads of kids that we could potentially take. Kids who are not good enough for them, but good enough for us. You can add the likes of Everton, Burnley, Sheff United, etc to that list as well. And not just from their actual Academy. Clubs like these will have loads of talented kids in their Development Centres who are not good enough for their Academy, but good enough for ours. Then you've got 'smaller clubs' Academy's. Such as Oldham, Rochdale, Halifax, who may well have a few gems in there that we can poach ourselves. Plus there's probably kids at the likes of Barnsley, Sheff Wednesday, Blackburn, Leeds etc, that would prefer to be in Town's Academy that we could also poach. Then you've got talented kids in grassroots that are not yet in Academies. There's a number of kids who at the moment are probably just below Academy level and can't get in anywhere due to established players. However, with a bit of polishing, they could become gems.....Remember Brahima Diarra was never in an Academy as such before joining Town. Neither was Chrichlow and others that we've signed from Grassroots at older ages that have gone on to be successful. So with Open Trials and building up a decent scouting network during this season, you can probably find a lot of talent in Grassroots. There are also a number of Apps nowadays that clubs are using to successfully find players for their Academies, such as Tonsser, Skouted etc. So whilst I do agree that it wont be easy and will take a lot of work from all concerned to fill an Academy for next season, using the above methods I feel it can be successfully achieved. It'll certainly be an interesting one to watch I tell you what if I was an ambitious youth team coach and that project/ opportunity was offered to me I'd bite your hand off Whoever heads that up literally has a blank canvas to create a youth system entirely of their own design Hopefully we find some top up and coming coaching talent in Man Utd. Man City etc to head this up |
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midge
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by midge on Aug 17, 2023 16:03:02 GMT 1
From memory DH never really liked the 'old' academy system, his view being that it cost a lot of money to run(something like £1m Pa) for what it produced- at that point O'Brien had not come through so the only real success you could point to were Smithies and Hunt? (There may have been others?) There was and still is the argument that all these big clubs poaching and that position was worsened by FPP(I think it was) where the Premier League gave EFL clubs more money but had more negotiating power on poaching academy player for less and I think this was the final straw for some clubs including Town. Has the 'new' system worked? I would say so as it seems to have produced more in a shorter time frame- Harrat, Headley, Bilokopic, Diarra, Camara, Jones, Ayina, Spencer who went straight into the new system. High, Austerfield, Jackson who were in the old system but have probably benefitted from the structure of the new system ie been given more time to prove themselves. Also would we have signed Koroma, Thomas, Russell etc under the old system!? Not sure!? Will be interesting to see what 'elements' of the B team system they will keep but there is no doubt to me that the 'return on investment' is much quicker. Will also be interesting to see how the old system will be introduced - as I have said before on here, where are you going to find 100+ kids ages 9- 16s of the quality required to start a season!? It maybe that you start with limited age groups say 9- 12s but again that will be a lot of recruitment initially and again, looking at it from a 1st team point of view, those players are years away from making a debut, if ever. In terms of what Town can do differently to recruit!? I think they are going to have to 'smooze' the parents of these kids- better communication, maybe free tickets to games to get them to choose us over bigger clubs! Amonst other things! Huge topic and a lot of work to be done IMO as you can see!! Bilokopic, diarra, camara, ayina, Jones and spencer could all have been brought in during the old system though much like billing was. Possibly!? Is there a coincidence here though that the 6 you mention were brought in within the space of 2 years and prior to that the only other example you quote is Billing? |
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Post by townarentbest on Aug 17, 2023 16:06:16 GMT 1
Copied from an article I just read.. Every team in the Premier League except for Brentford and Bournemouth (Category Three) currently operates a Category One Academy. In the Championship, only Huddersfield (Category Four) - who came within a whisker of promotion 2 years ago - would fail meet the new Premier League requirements. Surely the article is wrong. Southampton have an excellent academy, with products now being introduced into the first team in this Championship season. They are filtching lots of lads from Citeh, though. Why is the article wrong?! Based on that excerpt its saying only Hudds of the Championship would fail to meet the new PL requirements...doesn't say anything about Southampton or suggest that they would fail (which they wouldn't, since they're currently Category 1). |
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Post by jqhtfc on Aug 17, 2023 16:13:04 GMT 1
Bilokopic, diarra, camara, ayina, Jones and spencer could all have been brought in during the old system though much like billing was. Possibly!? Is there a coincidence here though that the 6 you mention were brought in within the space of 2 years and prior to that the only other example you quote is Billing? Don’t think so, Danny kane and jake Carroll both came over from Irish clubs, tronstad brought over from Norway all around the same time. Just saying all them deals could still have been done under the previous set up if the club had decided too |
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Post by townarentbest on Aug 17, 2023 16:15:17 GMT 1
Finding 100+ kids of the right quality will indeed be a challenge as you rightly say Midge, however, I don't think an insurmountable one. Every year there are loads of kids at all ages released from Academies. The likes of United, City, Liverpool etc etc will be releasing loads of kids that we could potentially take. Kids who are not good enough for them, but good enough for us. You can add the likes of Everton, Burnley, Sheff United, etc to that list as well. And not just from their actual Academy. Clubs like these will have loads of talented kids in their Development Centres who are not good enough for their Academy, but good enough for ours. Then you've got 'smaller clubs' Academy's. Such as Oldham, Rochdale, Halifax, who may well have a few gems in there that we can poach ourselves. Plus there's probably kids at the likes of Barnsley, Sheff Wednesday, Blackburn, Leeds etc, that would prefer to be in Town's Academy that we could also poach. Then you've got talented kids in grassroots that are not yet in Academies. There's a number of kids who at the moment are probably just below Academy level and can't get in anywhere due to established players. However, with a bit of polishing, they could become gems.....Remember Brahima Diarra was never in an Academy as such before joining Town. Neither was Chrichlow and others that we've signed from Grassroots at older ages that have gone on to be successful. So with Open Trials and building up a decent scouting network during this season, you can probably find a lot of talent in Grassroots. There are also a number of Apps nowadays that clubs are using to successfully find players for their Academies, such as Tonsser, Skouted etc. So whilst I do agree that it wont be easy and will take a lot of work from all concerned to fill an Academy for next season, using the above methods I feel it can be successfully achieved. It'll certainly be an interesting one to watch 100%. And one thing that the "bigger" clubs do which is a bit naughty, is they invite 100's of kids to come and join a few sessions every summer, tease them with the tantalising prospect of potentially joining their academy, and then tell them to go away and come back next year and they'll get offered a place if they've developed. In the meantime, Town have settled on their intake for the year and by the time Liverpool cast you off, its too late. You've got Liverpool & Man Utd fawning over your youngster, you're going to be shuttling them down the motorway or joining in sessions at some of their satellite set-ups (both operate IN Huddersfield 😡)...its very difficult to say yes to Hudds (especially as they haven't actively spotted and reached out) when there's a maybe from a club that could turn you into a multi-millionaire in a few years who are effectively showing their sweeties to your lad and telling him not to go to Bradford or Town because he "doesnt want to miss the opportunity". |
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Post by terrier86 on Aug 17, 2023 17:14:09 GMT 1
If Town put on a quality coaching offer with decent training facilities there's no reason why they shouldn't keep most of the quality up to 14/15 years old. At those ages there's no money offered and the longer travel times etc if they sell it on individual development should keep a lot in the area.
The difficulty will be at the older ages keeping that talent when ££ gets involved and showcasing getting more opportunities to develop and play to ultimately play professional football.
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midge
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Post by midge on Aug 17, 2023 17:21:28 GMT 1
Possibly!? Is there a coincidence here though that the 6 you mention were brought in within the space of 2 years and prior to that the only other example you quote is Billing? Don’t think so, Danny kane and jake Carroll both came over from Irish clubs, tronstad brought over from Norway all around the same time. Just saying all them deals could still have been done under the previous set up if the club had decided too I think the important words in your point are 'deals COULD still have been done' .....but they weren't and that to me shows the difference in strategy between the 2 'systems'. Respectfully, I think the players I have listed are greater in quantity and quality(some potential quality granted) to yours other than Billing of course! I class myself as a bit of a Town nerd but had to really scrape my memory to remember Carroll but really struggling to remember who Danny Kane was😬. The other point I would make was that the idea of stopping the old system was to divert funds into the new and the recruitment of these types of older players. My understanding is that we paid fees for some, if not all those players and to add to this list there is also the likes Luke Daley, Connor Falls and Danny Grant that I can think of. Such fees would not have been paid for the quantity and quality of players under the the old system! That said, for whatever reason(probably financial) this has tailed of in the last couple of years and we are now looking at the reintroduction of the old academy 'with elements of the existing B team system'! That says to me that we cannot afford or want to do the full elements of both! |
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Post by jqhtfc on Aug 17, 2023 18:16:13 GMT 1
Don’t think so, Danny kane and jake Carroll both came over from Irish clubs, tronstad brought over from Norway all around the same time. Just saying all them deals could still have been done under the previous set up if the club had decided too I think the important words in your point are 'deals COULD still have been done' .....but they weren't and that to me shows the difference in strategy between the 2 'systems'. Respectfully, I think the players I have listed are greater in quantity and quality(some potential quality granted) to yours other than Billing of course! I class myself as a bit of a Town nerd but had to really scrape my memory to remember Carroll but really struggling to remember who Danny Kane was😬. The other point I would make was that the idea of stopping the old system was to divert funds into the new and the recruitment of these types of older players. My understanding is that we paid fees for some, if not all those players and to add to this list there is also the likes Luke Daley, Connor Falls and Danny Grant that I can think of. Such fees would not have been paid for the quantity and quality of players under the the old system! That said, for whatever reason(probably financial) this has tailed of in the last couple of years and we are now looking at the reintroduction of the old academy 'with elements of the existing B team system'! That says to me that we cannot afford or want to do the full elements of both! Oh yeah I’d 100% say there better quality no argument there bar billing as you said and maybe tronstad who’s forged a good career for himself and ended up at Blackburn now. Would like to think we can do abit of both as it as it’s best of both worlds however I now think you need to waiting until lads are 18 before signing from abroad bar Ireland which probably hinders it. |
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midge
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by midge on Aug 17, 2023 18:17:27 GMT 1
Finding 100+ kids of the right quality will indeed be a challenge as you rightly say Midge, however, I don't think an insurmountable one. Every year there are loads of kids at all ages released from Academies. The likes of United, City, Liverpool etc etc will be releasing loads of kids that we could potentially take. Kids who are not good enough for them, but good enough for us. You can add the likes of Everton, Burnley, Sheff United, etc to that list as well. And not just from their actual Academy. Clubs like these will have loads of talented kids in their Development Centres who are not good enough for their Academy, but good enough for ours. Then you've got 'smaller clubs' Academy's. Such as Oldham, Rochdale, Halifax, who may well have a few gems in there that we can poach ourselves. Plus there's probably kids at the likes of Barnsley, Sheff Wednesday, Blackburn, Leeds etc, that would prefer to be in Town's Academy that we could also poach. Then you've got talented kids in grassroots that are not yet in Academies. There's a number of kids who at the moment are probably just below Academy level and can't get in anywhere due to established players. However, with a bit of polishing, they could become gems.....Remember Brahima Diarra was never in an Academy as such before joining Town. Neither was Chrichlow and others that we've signed from Grassroots at older ages that have gone on to be successful. So with Open Trials and building up a decent scouting network during this season, you can probably find a lot of talent in Grassroots. There are also a number of Apps nowadays that clubs are using to successfully find players for their Academies, such as Tonsser, Skouted etc. So whilst I do agree that it wont be easy and will take a lot of work from all concerned to fill an Academy for next season, using the above methods I feel it can be successfully achieved. It'll certainly be an interesting one to watch I agree that there are plenty of kids released from the big academies every year Jon but there are and always were other smaller clubs 'fishing in the same pond' don't forget.. Also if it were that easy, how come we were so poor at it last time around.? I would suggest we might be lucky to get one or 2 players of this type per age group at a push and we would have to massively up our game in selling it to them as we are basically starting from scratch and will not be as attractive initially as establlished academies/ teams! Same with the kids from 'smaller clubs' to an extent. The good ones will have other clubs sniffing and whilst it is very crass talking about a 12year old kid in this way, a lot will also have been let go for a reason. Probably another 1 to 2 kids per age group max! Grass roots is an interesting one! You can probably add Pat to that list and was it Jaheim or Muz who had never played academy before!? Anyway the point again is that as crass as it sounds, just about every kid in grass roots junior footy has been under the eye of a scout / been in a development centre or at an academy or develop later than others(and that may be where there are opportunities) but again these are few and far between so the 'opportunities' here are limited. For these reasons, that is why I feel that it will be difficult to get the quantity and quality of youngsters for a long time, particularly when it was deemed difficult 5 years ago when we had the players and the structure and it was deemed ineffective. As I have said, there are little things that can be done to improve recruitment and retention of players cos the old structure was poor but these are going to take a long time IMO and we need players in the here and now to compete! I obviously sincerely hope I am proved wrong BTW!!! |
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Sparrow
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Post by Sparrow on Aug 17, 2023 18:30:27 GMT 1
Yep all valid points mate. It will be interesting to see how Town go about it.
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Post by dalesterrier on Aug 18, 2023 10:02:07 GMT 1
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horler1
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by horler1 on Aug 22, 2023 13:34:51 GMT 1
Anyone in the know, ( Maynardblue) is there a plan to loan out the players from the B team? We don't seem to have loaned them out so far this year. The last few years have seen loads go out on loan and I think it's been of huge benefit. |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 22, 2023 14:38:32 GMT 1
If Turtinho was back from I jury then I could see real value in Brodie Spencer getting a loan. Maybe January?
Loïck Ayina is behind quite a number of players. It would make sense for him to go out to a club in Lg1 on loan.
If we're able to bring in a striker I can see the benefit of Hudlin leaving on loan. Hopefully Simpson kicks on at Northampton too. We could have quite a young, impressive strike force next season if everyone lives up to their potential.
All in all, I hope there are a few loans in the pipeline, subject to us getting deals of our own over the line. Seems strange that Ayina is still here though. We've more than enough cover in his position and I'd have thought it beneficial to all parties if he could move sooner rather than later.
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horler1
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by horler1 on Aug 22, 2023 14:45:55 GMT 1
If Turtinho was back from I jury then I could see real value in Brodie Spencer getting a loan. Maybe January? Loïck Ayina is behind quite a number of players. It would make sense for him to go out to a club in Lg1 on loan. If we're able to bring in a striker I can see the benefit of Hudlin leaving on loan. Hopefully Simpson kicks on at Northampton too. We could have quite a young, impressive strike force next season if everyone lives up to their potential. All in all, I hope there are a few loans in the pipeline, subject to us getting deals of our own over the line. Seems strange that Ayina is still here though. We've more than enough cover in his position and I'd have thought it beneficial to all parties if he could move sooner rather than later. Presume they've been looking at all the players as part of planning next transfer window etc but I hope there's going to plenty more loans out |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 22, 2023 14:53:48 GMT 1
If Turtinho was back from I jury then I could see real value in Brodie Spencer getting a loan. Maybe January? Loïck Ayina is behind quite a number of players. It would make sense for him to go out to a club in Lg1 on loan. If we're able to bring in a striker I can see the benefit of Hudlin leaving on loan. Hopefully Simpson kicks on at Northampton too. We could have quite a young, impressive strike force next season if everyone lives up to their potential. All in all, I hope there are a few loans in the pipeline, subject to us getting deals of our own over the line. Seems strange that Ayina is still here though. We've more than enough cover in his position and I'd have thought it beneficial to all parties if he could move sooner rather than later. Presume they've been looking at all the players as part of planning next transfer window etc but I hope there's going to plenty more loans out In case you missed it - there's a thread devoted to youth players pinned at the top. If you're interested in the subject you may find discussion on there to be of interest. |
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Post by Porrohman on Aug 22, 2023 15:59:04 GMT 1
B team won 4-0 at home to Lincoln. Austerfield, Jackson and 2 for Yuta
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Post by Porrohman on Aug 24, 2023 17:11:46 GMT 1
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Aug 24, 2023 20:36:32 GMT 1
Only an 18 month contract for spencer. Unusually short for a youngster with potential - wonder if that’s because we’re not sure on him, or offering a low wage that he doesn’t want to commit to for too long?
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Post by bells ringing :) on Aug 24, 2023 20:41:20 GMT 1
Only an 18 month contract for spencer. Unusually short for a youngster with potential - wonder if that’s because we’re not sure on him, or offering a low wage that he doesn’t want to commit to for too long? probs more of the first, look at how many younger players, we have been stuck with who have never lived up to their potential. It seems the club have learnt from mistakes made, offer young players a contract, but don't tie them down for 3/4 years until they have proven themselves, then get them tied down if so. |
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 25, 2023 8:17:53 GMT 1
Only an 18 month contract for spencer. Unusually short for a youngster with potential - wonder if that’s because we’re not sure on him, or offering a low wage that he doesn’t want to commit to for too long? I would have assumed that 2025 means summer 2025 as opposed to January - so 2 years. |
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crux
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Post by crux on Aug 25, 2023 10:19:53 GMT 1
Only an 18 month contract for spencer. Unusually short for a youngster with potential - wonder if that’s because we’re not sure on him, or offering a low wage that he doesn’t want to commit to for too long? I would have assumed that 2025 means summer 2025 as opposed to January - so 2 years. God, that makes me feel old! 2025 is less than 2 years away. I remember working overnight on December 31st 1999 just to make sure the YBS systems didn't collapse, as if it was a couple of years ago 🤣 |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Aug 25, 2023 10:48:13 GMT 1
Only an 18 month contract for spencer. Unusually short for a youngster with potential - wonder if that’s because we’re not sure on him, or offering a low wage that he doesn’t want to commit to for too long? I would have assumed that 2025 means summer 2025 as opposed to January - so 2 years. Yeah you’re right, not so bad then. |
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Post by Convictatthemac on Aug 25, 2023 11:24:16 GMT 1
Good loan that. They are a mid table team and if he can get in the first eleven he’ll meet many challenges. |
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Post by Terry Jacko on Aug 25, 2023 11:38:03 GMT 1
Be surprised if he gets in ahead of Stephen O’Donnell unless he has lost form or changed position.
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Aug 25, 2023 13:39:01 GMT 1
I would have assumed that 2025 means summer 2025 as opposed to January - so 2 years. God, that makes me feel old! 2025 is less than 2 years away. I remember working overnight on December 31st 1999 just to make sure the YBS systems didn't collapse, as if it was a couple of years ago 🤣 I don't remember December 31st 1999. I'm not young, I was just really, really pissed at the time. |
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Post by Porrohman on Sept 1, 2023 21:51:40 GMT 1
Brodie Spencer promoted from the NI U21's squad to the full squad
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Post by dalesterrier on Sept 4, 2023 14:26:39 GMT 1
We've finally signed Weatherall.....I think we tried to sign him during the Rubery era
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Post by mosher on Sept 4, 2023 14:38:38 GMT 1
Is that the ex-L***s guy? Couldn't tell from the picture, not how I remember him (yes I know it's been a while). His face has changed almost as much as Kylie's between neighbours and now  |
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