Public sector Tw*ts

[rocky]

Jul 11, 2014 18:56:04 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

Jul 11, 2014 17:07:09 GMT 1 rocky said:

I've already said. Pension benefits significantly better than those available in a personal pension (for the same contribution levels) & that's before the employer contributions are taken into account. Death in service, dependents pensions, escalating income in retirement etc. etc. Sick pay benefit of 6 months full pay & 6 months half.

That's of the things the government are trying to get rid off Rocky to be fair.....twats. I had an operation last September and took some time off work sick to recover, not particularly long granted, 3 weeks, but if I hadn't been paid, I simply wouldn't have been able to pay the mortgage. The cost to cover my income privately would be outrageous and unaffordable and there is no guarantee that I even could get any cover in the first place. I fail to see how forcing hardship on the workforce is good for staff morale!!

But surely mate, that just emphasis the point I'm trying to make in this thread, i.e. whilst public sector workers are generally poorly paid, their benefits package definitely redresses the balance & they often forget this when they're moaning about things.

Condescending Terrier put it well when he said they have one hell of a cushy number & a prime example of that is when you were off sick. If you worked in the private sector, chances are you wouldn't have been paid & would have struggled to pay your mortgage. Many people working in the private sector have to rely on means tested benefits when they're off sick, which even when paid, are a tiny fraction of full pay.

I don't know if you saw my post earlier in this thread, but I spoke to someone recently who had been off work for 4 months (& counting!) with stress. Surprise surprise, he works for the Council. You & I both know that were it not for him receiving full pay, there's no way he would be off sick that long for something like that.

Anyway, roll on the new season when I can get back to bollocking you for moaning about all things HTFC!

[alexdire]

Jul 10, 2014 11:20:33 GMT 1 @northernspirit said:

Jul 10, 2014 10:09:47 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Agreed, I haven't been given a pay rise in the last 5 years, but my salary has increased. Why, because I get off my arse and move. Its the only way.

We have taken a pay CUT for the last 3 years since they increased our pensions by 3%

I

Did you get your increment pay rise though?

That's what a lot of people don't realise is that public sector pay is made up of an annual pay rise, which is frozen. Plus an increment as people move up the pay scale due to years served, which isn't frozen.

Also in the private sector, well my experience anyway, didn't get 13 years of decent pay rises between 97 and 10. Plus we didn't get a 'options for change' which seemed to me as an excuse to give most people I know a one off 20% pay rise.

[thrice]

Jul 12, 2014 9:55:22 GMT 1 wasp said:

Jul 11, 2014 21:29:53 GMT 1 thrice said:

I'll defend & support anyone's right to strike over fair pay & conditions but these public sector strikes seem all about maintaining privileged conditions to me. You should negotiate to maintain privileged conditions & not resort to withdrawing your labour with such apparent ease. You are being led a merry dance by your unions.

Is it any wonder that those in the private sector cannot support your actions when they have been subjected to redundancies, pay cuts & real deterioration in conditions in these recent times.

Good luck to you, but don't expect everyone to rally to your cause.

The folk striking don't even appear to have their heart in it.
Tens & hundreds of thousands on strike but where were the massed pickets?
That tells me all I need to know about the conviction of the strikers.

Why is wanting a decent pay rise a privilege ?

I'm 20% down and had my workload doubled

Count yourself as one of the lucky ones & negotiate for better pay & conditions accordingly.

[griffa]

Jul 12, 2014 10:16:40 GMT 1 HuddsTerrier said:

We'd all like to get paid more but as I said before who funds it?

The is no money left in the public sector and if people in that area don't like that reality they really ought to consider moving jobs /retraining because it will be this way for years maybe decades.

There is no easy solution. If the public sector where a business it would be insolvent and bankrupt. It has been mismanaged for decades

There are no ways to increase revenue to fund pay rises

Individual tax rises?

It's mid July and I won't have earned a penny yet in 2014 once you factor in tax for PAYE, NICS, council tax, 20% VAT plus higher levy on petrol (I spend c.£50 a week driving to work). At some point I then need to save for my own retirement as well!

Simply the UK public are taxed enough and there's little more left to tax here. We are one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world

Tax big business and risk them laying off private sector workers to save cost or in extreme cases moving offshore (there is a reason places like Gibraltar are booming) Or watch the company pass the extra costs onto end customers in higher prices - so we end up paying

Or recognise that despite borrowing billions annually to fund public spending and taxing about 35% of GDP -one of the highest in world - the public sector needs to make the decisions done in the private sector

It's not like the option is a across the board pay cut or a reduction of the workforce (redundancies) as happened in the private sector. BTW I didn't see public sector unions striking when that was common place in the private sector. No decide and conquer by the elite the public sector unions only care when it affects them - not sure why they are surprised that private sector employees show similar apathy to their strike

I get that teachers, nurse and soldiers deserve more but other civil servants really are doing okay IMO.

There are ways to fund pay rises IMO get rid of unnecessary roles (eg marketing), streamline (eg finance,HR) or pay less (eg legal aid bill). That's before the obvious waste we all see daily in procurement and logistics, eg roads being dug up one week and again a month later . Also there is a lot of deadwood in the public sector, I had some great teachers but also some horrific ones and they should get the boot like they would in the real world for underperformance (also reduce teacher paperwork, give them more authority in the classroom and instantly moral would rise there)

Point is public sector largely does a good job but they need to modernise. Cut the waste/ unnecessary functions, consolidate other departments and recognise that you can't keep spending more money than is taken in tax - otherwise your kids foot the bill eventually

What utter bollox, no money in the public coffers! That's why we're spending £50 billion on HR2.
And an estimated £100 billion on upgrading the Royal Navy Nuclear Strike Force.
Would have been useful for Royal Mail to have been sold properly & not under valued, but the City Spivs screwed the Government, estimated loss to the Exchequer £1 to £2 billion pounds.
A top down re-structure of the NHS, which cost £3 billion!
Tories know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing!
Meanwhile Cameron & Co blame all our woes on Immigrants, European Union, Unions & Labour!
What utter bollox!

[Christ in Shades (art)]

Jul 12, 2014 10:30:22 GMT 1 rocky said:

Jul 11, 2014 18:56:04 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

That's of the things the government are trying to get rid off Rocky to be fair.....twats. I had an operation last September and took some time off work sick to recover, not particularly long granted, 3 weeks, but if I hadn't been paid, I simply wouldn't have been able to pay the mortgage. The cost to cover my income privately would be outrageous and unaffordable and there is no guarantee that I even could get any cover in the first place. I fail to see how forcing hardship on the workforce is good for staff morale!!

But surely mate, that just emphasis the point I'm trying to make in this thread, i.e. whilst public sector workers are generally poorly paid, their benefits package definitely redresses the balance & they often forget this when they're moaning about things.

Condescending Terrier put it well when he said they have one hell of a cushy number & a prime example of that is when you were off sick. If you worked in the private sector, chances are you wouldn't have been paid & would have struggled to pay your mortgage. Many people working in the private sector have to rely on means tested benefits when they're off sick, which even when paid, are a tiny fraction of full pay.

I don't know if you saw my post earlier in this thread, but I spoke to someone recently who had been off work for 4 months (& counting!) with stress. Surprise surprise, he works for the Council. You & I both know that were it not for him receiving full pay, there's no way he would be off sick that long for something like that.

Anyway, roll on the new season when I can get back to bollocking you for moaning about all things HTFC!

I fully understand this, I alluded to this earlier in the thread in one of my posts. We have exchanged these extra 'benefits' for lower pay, but now they want to remove some of these benefits and keep our pay low, it's not as if they're exchanging it for higher pay, is it? Basically what they are saying is, we're going to take some of the extra benefits off you, keep your pay static and make you pay more for your pensions, make you work longer, would you not feel aggrieved if this happened to you Rocky mate? I could go and get another job, but to be fair I don't really want to, I quite like my job, I don't want to take another job which I might dislike just to appease you lot and maybe get me some more pay, even though I maybe unhappy in it.

I also find the cushy number comment a bit offensive, as previously said, it's not as if we sit around tossing it off all day. Another myth that public sector workers are on a 'cushy number'.

You can bollock me now if you wish Rocky, I've already made a few comments that have caused consternation.

[Christ in Shades (art)]

Jul 12, 2014 11:06:07 GMT 1 griffa said:

Jul 12, 2014 10:16:40 GMT 1 HuddsTerrier said:

We'd all like to get paid more but as I said before who funds it?

The is no money left in the public sector and if people in that area don't like that reality they really ought to consider moving jobs /retraining because it will be this way for years maybe decades.

There is no easy solution. If the public sector where a business it would be insolvent and bankrupt. It has been mismanaged for decades

There are no ways to increase revenue to fund pay rises

Individual tax rises?

It's mid July and I won't have earned a penny yet in 2014 once you factor in tax for PAYE, NICS, council tax, 20% VAT plus higher levy on petrol (I spend c.£50 a week driving to work). At some point I then need to save for my own retirement as well!

Simply the UK public are taxed enough and there's little more left to tax here. We are one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world

Tax big business and risk them laying off private sector workers to save cost or in extreme cases moving offshore (there is a reason places like Gibraltar are booming) Or watch the company pass the extra costs onto end customers in higher prices - so we end up paying

Or recognise that despite borrowing billions annually to fund public spending and taxing about 35% of GDP -one of the highest in world - the public sector needs to make the decisions done in the private sector

It's not like the option is a across the board pay cut or a reduction of the workforce (redundancies) as happened in the private sector. BTW I didn't see public sector unions striking when that was common place in the private sector. No decide and conquer by the elite the public sector unions only care when it affects them - not sure why they are surprised that private sector employees show similar apathy to their strike

I get that teachers, nurse and soldiers deserve more but other civil servants really are doing okay IMO.

There are ways to fund pay rises IMO get rid of unnecessary roles (eg marketing), streamline (eg finance,HR) or pay less (eg legal aid bill). That's before the obvious waste we all see daily in procurement and logistics, eg roads being dug up one week and again a month later . Also there is a lot of deadwood in the public sector, I had some great teachers but also some horrific ones and they should get the boot like they would in the real world for underperformance (also reduce teacher paperwork, give them more authority in the classroom and instantly moral would rise there)

Point is public sector largely does a good job but they need to modernise. Cut the waste/ unnecessary functions, consolidate other departments and recognise that you can't keep spending more money than is taken in tax - otherwise your kids foot the bill eventually

What utter bollox, no money in the public coffers! That's why we're spending £50 billion on HR2.
And an estimated £100 billion on upgrading the Royal Navy Nuclear Strike Force.
Would have been useful for Royal Mail to have been sold properly & not under valued, but the City Spivs screwed the Government, estimated loss to the Exchequer £1 to £2 billion pounds.
A top down re-structure of the NHS, which cost £3 billion!
Tories know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing!
Meanwhile Cameron & Co blame all our woes on Immigrants, European Union, Unions & Labour!
What utter bollox!

Don't forget Nigel Farage as well.

[HuddsTerrier]

Jul 12, 2014 11:06:07 GMT 1 griffa said:

Jul 12, 2014 10:16:40 GMT 1 HuddsTerrier said:

We'd all like to get paid more but as I said before who funds it?

The is no money left in the public sector and if people in that area don't like that reality they really ought to consider moving jobs /retraining because it will be this way for years maybe decades.

There is no easy solution. If the public sector where a business it would be insolvent and bankrupt. It has been mismanaged for decades

There are no ways to increase revenue to fund pay rises

Individual tax rises?

It's mid July and I won't have earned a penny yet in 2014 once you factor in tax for PAYE, NICS, council tax, 20% VAT plus higher levy on petrol (I spend c.£50 a week driving to work). At some point I then need to save for my own retirement as well!

Simply the UK public are taxed enough and there's little more left to tax here. We are one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world

Tax big business and risk them laying off private sector workers to save cost or in extreme cases moving offshore (there is a reason places like Gibraltar are booming) Or watch the company pass the extra costs onto end customers in higher prices - so we end up paying

Or recognise that despite borrowing billions annually to fund public spending and taxing about 35% of GDP -one of the highest in world - the public sector needs to make the decisions done in the private sector

It's not like the option is a across the board pay cut or a reduction of the workforce (redundancies) as happened in the private sector. BTW I didn't see public sector unions striking when that was common place in the private sector. No decide and conquer by the elite the public sector unions only care when it affects them - not sure why they are surprised that private sector employees show similar apathy to their strike

I get that teachers, nurse and soldiers deserve more but other civil servants really are doing okay IMO.

There are ways to fund pay rises IMO get rid of unnecessary roles (eg marketing), streamline (eg finance,HR) or pay less (eg legal aid bill). That's before the obvious waste we all see daily in procurement and logistics, eg roads being dug up one week and again a month later . Also there is a lot of deadwood in the public sector, I had some great teachers but also some horrific ones and they should get the boot like they would in the real world for underperformance (also reduce teacher paperwork, give them more authority in the classroom and instantly moral would rise there)

Point is public sector largely does a good job but they need to modernise. Cut the waste/ unnecessary functions, consolidate other departments and recognise that you can't keep spending more money than is taken in tax - otherwise your kids foot the bill eventually

What utter bollox, no money in the public coffers! That's why we're spending £50 billion on HR2.
And an estimated £100 billion on upgrading the Royal Navy Nuclear Strike Force.
Would have been useful for Royal Mail to have been sold properly & not under valued, but the City Spivs screwed the Government, estimated loss to the Exchequer £1 to £2 billion pounds.
A top down re-structure of the NHS, which cost £3 billion!
Tories know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing!
Meanwhile Cameron & Co blame all our woes on Immigrants, European Union, Unions & Labour!
What utter bollox!

I wouldn't fund HS2, aircraft carriers either - further waste of money which we don't have

Aircraft carriers just illustrate the wastefulness of public finances IMO. It also illustrates the lack of accountability in the public sector - has a single head rolled yet over that?

As for the post office. I agree a utter mess but it was Cable behind that so not sure of your Tory point. Cable should be accountable for that but we all know he won't walk

Finally if the Government hadn't taken the liabilities on for the post office pension fund do you think anyone would have invested at all?

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2014 10:11:58 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Jul 10, 2014 10:08:49 GMT 1 Grandfather Berty of Cleck said:

No idea have you Alex.

Sorry, its Public Sector workers that have no idea how the real world works. No offence.

Bullshit!!!!!! My old man was a public sector worker, which he rose to the top of his pile in but before that he was in your real world for years.
I remember having fuck all as a kid, oldest car on the street, my mum working 2 jobs, my dad on shit money then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off. So don't tell me he didn't know how your real world works.

[barnsleydaz]

Jul 12, 2014 11:18:30 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Jul 10, 2014 10:11:58 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Sorry, its Public Sector workers that have no idea how the real world works. No offence.

Bullshit!!!!!! My old man was a public sector worker, which he rose to the top of his pile in but before that he was in your real world for years.
I remember having fuck all as a kid, oldest car on the street, my mum working 2 jobs, my dad on shit money then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off. So don't tell me he didn't know how your real world works.

Keep reading, you'll catch up eventually.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 11:20:23 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Jul 12, 2014 11:18:30 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Bullshit!!!!!! My old man was a public sector worker, which he rose to the top of his pile in but before that he was in your real world for years.
I remember having fuck all as a kid, oldest car on the street, my mum working 2 jobs, my dad on shit money then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off. So don't tell me he didn't know how your real world works.

Keep reading, you'll catch up eventually.

I have no desire to read through all that twaddle, i'm replying to this post not any others, just this one condescending post.

[rocky]

Jul 12, 2014 11:09:00 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

I fully understand this, I alluded to this earlier in the thread in one of my posts. We have exchanged these extra 'benefits' for lower pay, but now they want to remove some of these benefits and keep our pay low, it's not as if they're exchanging it for higher pay, is it? Basically what they are saying is, we're going to take some of the extra benefits off you, keep your pay static and make you pay more for your pensions, make you work longer, would you not feel aggrieved if this happened to you Rocky mate? I could go and get another job, but to be fair I don't really want to, I quite like my job, I don't want to take another job which I might dislike just to appease you lot and maybe get me some more pay, even though I maybe unhappy in it.

I also find the cushy number comment a bit offensive, as previously said, it's not as if we sit around tossing it off all day. Another myth that public sector workers are on a 'cushy number'.

You can bollock me now if you wish Rocky, I've already made a few comments that have caused consternation.

Oh I'll wait till the season starts till I do that!

Seriously, there's no easy solution to the main point we're discussing here. The Govt only has so much money & I think HuddsTerrier has got it right in terms of describing the problem.

[barnsleydaz]

Jul 12, 2014 11:18:30 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Jul 10, 2014 10:11:58 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Sorry, its Public Sector workers that have no idea how the real world works. No offence.

Bullshit!!!!!! My old man was a public sector worker, which he rose to the top of his pile in but before that he was in your real world for years.
I remember having fuck all as a kid, oldest car on the street, my mum working 2 jobs, my dad on shit money then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off. So don't tell me he didn't know how your real world works.

then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off.

Point proved I think.

[Christ in Shades (art)]

Jul 12, 2014 11:53:33 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Jul 12, 2014 11:18:30 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Bullshit!!!!!! My old man was a public sector worker, which he rose to the top of his pile in but before that he was in your real world for years.
I remember having fuck all as a kid, oldest car on the street, my mum working 2 jobs, my dad on shit money then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off. So don't tell me he didn't know how your real world works.

then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off.

Point proved I think.

It's called career progression and reward for self improvement.

[barnsleydaz]

Jul 12, 2014 11:55:47 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

Jul 12, 2014 11:53:33 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off.

Point proved I think.

It's called career progression and reward for self improvement.

Agreed, the same that happens in the private sector if your good enough.

How come someone in the private sector can not make it, but if he moves to the public sector he reaches the top of the pile to use Hoamers analogy.

The answer is simple really.

Sorry, will rephrase that.
"When he gets his chance in the public sector".

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 11:53:33 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Jul 12, 2014 11:18:30 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Bullshit!!!!!! My old man was a public sector worker, which he rose to the top of his pile in but before that he was in your real world for years.
I remember having fuck all as a kid, oldest car on the street, my mum working 2 jobs, my dad on shit money then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off. So don't tell me he didn't know how your real world works.

then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off.

Point proved I think.

Wrong!!!!! Point totally smashed to bits. He knew exactly how the real world worked having spent the first 20yrs working in it, then he took his experience of that real world into the public sector which had made him into the man he was & enabled him to get to the position he did & then retire at the age of 56. Now if you'd have said "some of the public sector workers don't know how the real world works" you may have had a point but you didn't.

[barnsleydaz]

Jul 12, 2014 12:02:56 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Jul 12, 2014 11:53:33 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

then he got his chance in the public sector which made him quite well off.

Point proved I think.

Wrong!!!!! Point totally smashed to bits. He knew exactly how the real world worked having spent the first 20yrs working in it, then he took his experience of that real world into the public sector which had made him into the man he was & enabled him to get to the position he did & then retire at the age of 56. Now if you'd have said "some of the public sector workers don't know how the real world works" you may have had a point but you didn't.

If you say so.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 12:00:11 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Jul 12, 2014 11:55:47 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

It's called career progression and reward for self improvement.

Agreed, the same that happens in the private sector if your good enough.

How come someone in the private sector can not make it, but if he moves to the public sector he reaches the top of the pile to use Hoamers analogy.

The answer is simple really.

Sorry, will rephrase that.
"When he gets his chance in the public sector".

See there you go again, assuming.
In my old mans case it was a totally different job to how he started in your real world, then he moved into the public sector & worked his way up with sheer hard graft & a quite a lot of nous.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 12:07:40 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Jul 12, 2014 12:02:56 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Wrong!!!!! Point totally smashed to bits. He knew exactly how the real world worked having spent the first 20yrs working in it, then he took his experience of that real world into the public sector which had made him into the man he was & enabled him to get to the position he did & then retire at the age of 56. Now if you'd have said "some of the public sector workers don't know how the real world works" you may have had a point but you didn't.

If you say so.

Case in point well & truly proven. Thank you & good night.

[rubicon]

Politics eh, just one of the three things that should NEVER be discussed between friends, which lets face it as Town supporters we're at least supposed to be on the same side. I'm as Conservative as they come politics wise, but clearly there are still numerous Labour supporters still around even after Tony B Liar and Gordon spend it all Brown. One might as well try and convince conspiracy theorists a la the moon landings that they're as barking as they are as try and change anybodies mind about Politics, so no reply really necessary. I understand where you're coming from, just wouldn't agree with it in a million years and appreciate you feel exactly the same. May as well come round your house tomorrow with a Leeds United rosette on, it would have the same effect.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 12:26:57 GMT 1 rubicon said:

Politics eh, just one of the three things that should NEVER be discussed between friends, which lets face it as Town supporters we're at least supposed to be on the same side. I'm as Conservative as they come politics wise, but clearly there are still numerous Labour supporters still around even after Tony B Liar and Gordon spend it all Brown. One might as well try and convince conspiracy theorists a la the moon landings that they're as barking as they are as try and change anybodies mind about Politics, so no reply really necessary. I understand where you're coming from, just wouldn't agree with it in a million years and appreciate you feel exactly the same. May as well come round your house tomorrow with a Leeds United rosette on, it would have the same effect.

Don't do politics, don't know enough about it.
But when someone makes sweeping statements about something that is wrong then thats a different matter.

[barnsleydaz]

Jul 12, 2014 12:08:26 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Jul 12, 2014 12:00:11 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Agreed, the same that happens in the private sector if your good enough.

How come someone in the private sector can not make it, but if he moves to the public sector he reaches the top of the pile to use Hoamers analogy.

The answer is simple really.

Sorry, will rephrase that.
"When he gets his chance in the public sector".

See there you go again, assuming.
In my old mans case it was a totally different job to how he started in your real world, then he moved into the public sector & worked his way up with sheer hard graft & a quite a lot of nous.

Lets get something clear, the use of the term "Public Sector Worker" covers a vast amount of careers.

I have no problem with any of the:
Emergency Services
Armed Forces
NHS
Education
The all do a wonderful job and should be backed all the way.

But, most local councils are badly run.
Employing people on silly money for the job they are expected to do and with a benefits package that is quite frankly unsustainable to the country as a whole

I think the point being raised in most of the posts on this thread are that in the private sector you need to be the best at what you do to be any better off than someone at an equivalently educated level working in the public sector.

Most Public sector workers, have a job for life without having to be exceptional at what they do, in most cases progression is a given, and governed by time served most of the time.

Promotion/progression should be based on performance and not time served. This only pushes people into a role that they can not do correctly which leads to wastage of tax payers money. IMO.

If what you are claiming about your farther is true, then its a one off. We are talking in general.

Generally, people with a lot of nous, as you put it, choose to work in the private sector because there is more competition and the salaries (for the same position) are greater. (benefits package maybe not so.)

There are pro's and con's for both sides, but in general Private Sector workers are tired of hearing the complaining.

Obviously there are exception to this, I'm talking generally.




.

[townatheart]

Jul 12, 2014 12:34:08 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Jul 12, 2014 12:26:57 GMT 1 rubicon said:

Politics eh, just one of the three things that should NEVER be discussed between friends, which lets face it as Town supporters we're at least supposed to be on the same side. I'm as Conservative as they come politics wise, but clearly there are still numerous Labour supporters still around even after Tony B Liar and Gordon spend it all Brown. One might as well try and convince conspiracy theorists a la the moon landings that they're as barking as they are as try and change anybodies mind about Politics, so no reply really necessary. I understand where you're coming from, just wouldn't agree with it in a million years and appreciate you feel exactly the same. May as well come round your house tomorrow with a Leeds United rosette on, it would have the same effect.

Don't do politics, don't know enough about it.

Not to sure about that, you seem to have a comprehensive knowledge on just about any subject


But when someone makes sweeping statements about something that is wrong then thats a different matter.

Fair enough, always risky making generalizations, but to be fair, he never said ALL, so not so bad, but, you based you argument on one specific person (and well done by the way for sticking for your  Dad, refreshing to see nowadays - that is a serious compliment), so not to sure that you are on any firmer ground.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 12:57:01 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Jul 12, 2014 12:08:26 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

See there you go again, assuming.
In my old mans case it was a totally different job to how he started in your real world, then he moved into the public sector & worked his way up with sheer hard graft & a quite a lot of nous.

Lets get something clear, the use of the term "Public Sector Worker" covers a vast amount of careers.

I have no problem with any of the:
Emergency Services
Armed Forces
NHS
Education
The all do a wonderful job and should be backed all the way.

But, most local councils are badly run.
Employing people on silly money for the job they are expected to do and with a benefits package that is quite frankly unsustainable to the country as a whole

I think the point being raised in most of the posts on this thread are that in the private sector you need to be the best at what you do to be any better off than someone at an equivalently educated level working in the public sector.

Most Public sector workers, have a job for life without having to be exceptional at what they do, in most cases progression is a given, and governed by time served most of the time.

Promotion/progression should be based on performance and not time served. This only pushes people into a role that they can not do correctly which leads to wastage of tax payers money. IMO.

If what you are claiming about your farther is true, then its a one off. We are talking in general.

Generally, people with a lot of nous, as you put it, choose to work in the private sector because there is more competition and the salaries (for the same position) are greater. (benefits package maybe not so.)

There are pro's and con's for both sides, but in general Private Sector workers are tired of hearing the complaining.

Obviously there are exception to this, I'm talking generally.




.

It was the sweeping statement that you made that riled me. There are loads of people in the public sector that are in the bracket you mention, my mate for one who moans like fuck about the cuts to his pension etc etc but he's on good money & spends the fucking lot so not my problem. The situation with my dad was totally different, he was worse money in the private sector than in the public but like i said i was a career change.
He was a very intelligent man & was street wise to boot so he used his experience of working on the tools & took that into his public sector job & looked at it through their eyes as well as his own.
It must've worked because at his funeral last year there was that many people there they had to put it on the big screen outside as they couldn't all fit in,even his old boss who he hadn't worked for for 40yrs turned up. So as for not knowing anything about the real world was wrong in this case.

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2014 13:10:05 GMT 1 townatheart said:

Jul 12, 2014 12:34:08 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Don't do politics, don't know enough about it.

Not to sure about that, you seem to have a comprehensive knowledge on just about any subject


But when someone makes sweeping statements about something that is wrong then thats a different matter.

Fair enough, always risky making generalizations, but to be fair, he never said ALL, so not so bad, but, you based you argument on one specific person (and well done by the way for sticking for your  Dad, refreshing to see nowadays - that is a serious compliment), so not to sure that you are on any firmer ground.

Read my point further up, if he'd said "some public sector workers" but he didn't.
Its like saying muslims are terrorists, wrong some muslims are terrorists.

[barnsleydaz]

Jul 12, 2014 13:12:31 GMT 1 @moaner30 said:

Jul 12, 2014 12:57:01 GMT 1 barnsleydaz said:

Lets get something clear, the use of the term "Public Sector Worker" covers a vast amount of careers.

I have no problem with any of the:
Emergency Services
Armed Forces
NHS
Education
The all do a wonderful job and should be backed all the way.

But, most local councils are badly run.
Employing people on silly money for the job they are expected to do and with a benefits package that is quite frankly unsustainable to the country as a whole

I think the point being raised in most of the posts on this thread are that in the private sector you need to be the best at what you do to be any better off than someone at an equivalently educated level working in the public sector.

Most Public sector workers, have a job for life without having to be exceptional at what they do, in most cases progression is a given, and governed by time served most of the time.

Promotion/progression should be based on performance and not time served. This only pushes people into a role that they can not do correctly which leads to wastage of tax payers money. IMO.

If what you are claiming about your farther is true, then its a one off. We are talking in general.

Generally, people with a lot of nous, as you put it, choose to work in the private sector because there is more competition and the salaries (for the same position) are greater. (benefits package maybe not so.)

There are pro's and con's for both sides, but in general Private Sector workers are tired of hearing the complaining.

Obviously there are exception to this, I'm talking generally.




.

It was the sweeping statement that you made that riled me. There are loads of people in the public sector that are in the bracket you mention, my mate for one who moans like fuck about the cuts to his pension etc etc but he's on good money & spends the fucking lot so not my problem. The situation with my dad was totally different, he was worse money in the private sector than in the public but like i said i was a career change.
He was a very intelligent man & was street wise to boot so he used his experience of working on the tools & took that into his public sector job & looked at it through their eyes as well as his own.
It must've worked because at his funeral last year there was that many people there they had to put it on the big screen outside as they couldn't all fit in,even his old boss who he hadn't worked for for 40yrs turned up. So as for not knowing anything about the real world was wrong in this case.

Moaner, read all my comments on this thread and you will soon see that I'm talking generally, and that reading only one comment can easily be taken as a sweeping comment.

When I post, I assume (may be wrongly) that people read all the conversation.

For what is worth I empathise for your lose, it sounds like he was a decent bloke.

[midge]

Jul 12, 2014 11:09:00 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

Jul 12, 2014 10:30:22 GMT 1 rocky said:

But surely mate, that just emphasis the point I'm trying to make in this thread, i.e. whilst public sector workers are generally poorly paid, their benefits package definitely redresses the balance & they often forget this when they're moaning about things.

Condescending Terrier put it well when he said they have one hell of a cushy number & a prime example of that is when you were off sick. If you worked in the private sector, chances are you wouldn't have been paid & would have struggled to pay your mortgage. Many people working in the private sector have to rely on means tested benefits when they're off sick, which even when paid, are a tiny fraction of full pay.

I don't know if you saw my post earlier in this thread, but I spoke to someone recently who had been off work for 4 months (& counting!) with stress. Surprise surprise, he works for the Council. You & I both know that were it not for him receiving full pay, there's no way he would be off sick that long for something like that.

Anyway, roll on the new season when I can get back to bollocking you for moaning about all things HTFC!

I fully understand this, I alluded to this earlier in the thread in one of my posts. We have exchanged these extra 'benefits' for lower pay, but now they want to remove some of these benefits and keep our pay low, it's not as if they're exchanging it for higher pay, is it? Basically what they are saying is, we're going to take some of the extra benefits off you, keep your pay static and make you pay more for your pensions, make you work longer, would you not feel aggrieved if this happened to you Rocky mate? I could go and get another job, but to be fair I don't really want to, I quite like my job, I don't want to take another job which I might dislike just to appease you lot and maybe get me some more pay, even though I maybe unhappy in it.

I also find the cushy number comment a bit offensive, as previously said, it's not as if we sit around tossing it off all day. Another myth that public sector workers are on a 'cushy number'.

You can bollock me now if you wish Rocky, I've already made a few comments that have caused consternation.

When people talk of this lower pay on the public sector which jobs are we actually comparing!? Are there any hard facts that suggest this is correct!?

In terms of the benefits, I guess you mean the pension as far I am aware the sickness and holiday benefits are pretty much the same as they always were!?

In the private sector, defined benefit pensions schemes are like rocking horse sh!t, so to even still have this benefit still in tact is very fortunate to say the least!

No one can doubt that we are all living longer- we are being told that cures for cancer are around the corner and there are statistics about about the percentage of us and our children that will live over 100 which is far more than at the moment!

So if you were not asked to contribute more to an already great benefit or the age at which you could take your benefits increased then you could actually argue that your benefits package is actually improving all the time, as going forward each generation of public sector worker will enjoy more and more years of index linked pension for the same contribution!!!

[wasp]

Jul 12, 2014 10:18:17 GMT 1 Rigodon said:

Jul 12, 2014 9:55:22 GMT 1 wasp said:

Why is wanting a decent pay rise a privilege ?

I'm 20% down and had my workload doubled

WASP, as a favour (for not telling me about that Swastika your brother inked on my forehead in 2000 whilst walking into town from his Greenhead park residence. Still have to check the mirror before I leave the house even if he's a 'responsible parent' these days haha) can you empty my black 'un while I'm on holiday?

I PROMISE I WILL support your cause, bring you JD's and coke and letters of hilarity from the 'naughty scouser' whilst you are on the picket line.

You forgot to mention the E's! Make that funny horn sound one more, you know I love it :-)

[terrier86]

If the public sector is so easy with perks and better pay then why don't all the private sector workers apply for jobs in the public sector?

People have the choice in a lot of roles.

It shouldn't be a discussion about which sector you work in but what is fair. Its not fair on anyone to start a job with certain terms to then have them changed.Why can't the state pension age be rolling based on when you start? Its not a problem created overnight, an aging demographic has been happening for a long time and will continue to do so. It needs addressing rather than moving the goal posts every 5/10 years.

[barnsleydaz]

Jul 12, 2014 15:13:11 GMT 1 terrier86 said:

If the public sector is so easy with perks and better pay then why don't all the private sector workers apply for jobs in the public sector?

People have the choice in a lot of roles.

It shouldn't be a discussion about which sector you work in but what is fair. Its not fair on anyone to start a job with certain terms to then have them changed.Why can't the state pension age be rolling based on when you start? Its not a problem created overnight, an aging demographic has been happening for a long time and will continue to do so. It needs addressing rather than moving the goal posts every 5/10 years.

This is the same for both public and private sectors.

[Christ in Shades (art)]

Jul 12, 2014 13:31:28 GMT 1 midge said:

Jul 12, 2014 11:09:00 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

I fully understand this, I alluded to this earlier in the thread in one of my posts. We have exchanged these extra 'benefits' for lower pay, but now they want to remove some of these benefits and keep our pay low, it's not as if they're exchanging it for higher pay, is it? Basically what they are saying is, we're going to take some of the extra benefits off you, keep your pay static and make you pay more for your pensions, make you work longer, would you not feel aggrieved if this happened to you Rocky mate? I could go and get another job, but to be fair I don't really want to, I quite like my job, I don't want to take another job which I might dislike just to appease you lot and maybe get me some more pay, even though I maybe unhappy in it.

I also find the cushy number comment a bit offensive, as previously said, it's not as if we sit around tossing it off all day. Another myth that public sector workers are on a 'cushy number'.

You can bollock me now if you wish Rocky, I've already made a few comments that have caused consternation.

When people talk of this lower pay on the public sector which jobs are we actually comparing!? Are there any hard facts that suggest this is correct!?

In terms of the benefits, I guess you mean the pension as far I am aware the sickness and holiday benefits are pretty much the same as they always were!?

In the private sector, defined benefit pensions schemes are like rocking horse sh!t, so to even still have this benefit still in tact is very fortunate to say the least!

No one can doubt that we are all living longer- we are being told that cures for cancer are around the corner and there are statistics about about the percentage of us and our children that will live over 100 which is far more than at the moment!

So if you were not asked to contribute more to an already great benefit or the age at which you could take your benefits increased then you could actually argue that your benefits package is actually improving all the time, as going forward each generation of public sector worker will enjoy more and more years of index linked pension for the same contribution!!!

Currently that may well be the case but that may not be the case in the future, we are constantly being told that deaths from alcohol abuse are sky rocketing and obesity we are told is also a massive killer, cancer rates are soaring due to unhealthy lifestyles, so how do they work out that we are living longer? My mum and dads generation may well be living longer, born in the 50's but there is no guarantee my generation will live longer, born in the 70's.