jasonhand
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,971
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Post by jasonhand on Jul 10, 2014 12:14:28 GMT 1
Stats on Sky News shows public sector pay rose by 17 per cent over the last 7 years, whilst private sector pay rose by 13 per cent. Why 7 years? Where's the stats for the last five? Timescales for stats are crucial. Percentages are misleading. With percentages we could say house prices are 20% higher than what they were 5 years ago in the UK. Obviously this is done the house market in London. This percentage may well be people in the highest pay bracket in the public sector |
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Post by kennyk2 on Jul 10, 2014 12:14:41 GMT 1
Wife work's in the private sector and she's had 4 years of no pay increase. In fact 2 year's ago the company had to cut the wage bill across the board by 10%. She just got on with it. Having worked in the public sector for 23 years, I never realised how lucky I was. At last a public sector worker in touch of reality. Good for you mate. It really does make a change. Who was fighting for my final salary pension scheme? who was there fighting to prevent our pension pots from being pillaged? and who was there fighting for us when we were told, no pay rise again this year folks. In the private sector you have to make yourself competitive to stay at the top and move around to get the best salaries available to you. It's a dog eat dog world. unless you work in the public sector that is. Not a dig at you mate, I appreciate your comments. Yes I was in the public sector strictly speaking as the military is defined as part of the public sector. You don't get the right to strike and the annual pay increase was usually a paltry amount, often the pay review board's recommendations were totally ignored. Yes, we got a good pension, but that was balanced by paying a fair wack into it every month - that's why for instance a Police constables's take-home pay is way above what a soldier, airman or sailor rating would earn. Since the mid 90's the forces have been cut by an extraordinary amount. First it was the strategic defence review, then it was options for change, whereas now they don't try to dress it up anymore, it's just cuts. 90,000 RAF in 1982, 40,000 (ish) now. Imagine if the military were given the right to strike. I would have been championing Bob Crow as out trade union leader, he would really have got his teeth into the Government, we would never have been at work! |
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Chris461
Iain Dunn Terrier
[M0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by Chris461 on Jul 10, 2014 12:14:45 GMT 1
Divide and rule.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jul 10, 2014 12:16:28 GMT 1
"ridiculous pension terms" ??
agreed and signed by government to be financially legally binding.. but not when it suits them?
cant quite work out how nobody seems to be able to see whats coming.
A top surgeon my brother knows left this country 2 weeks ago to work in America. They are going to pay him more but that's not the reason he left. He left because the trust he worked for employed 2 surgeons from abroad on a 'pay as you operate' scheme which ultimately means that 3 in house surgeons that are due to retire will be replaced by 2 substitutes who just don't have the training or experience that is actually required, but they are much cheaper and can be called in when required. They will have little or no knowledge of the 'body' and as they are on 'piece work' the trust will want them on site for as little time as possible. If we are starting to 'lifesave' on the cheap then I guess street cleansing will be shifted out to a bloke who says he has trained some monkeys to do it. The new surgeons pay and conditions of course do not factor in the claims for negligence or plain incompetence that will surely follow on...
Its a slippery slope towards the government changing all the rules and agreements and no one will be able to take legal action against them or any other government department. Once we cant sue the National Health etc then the standards can drop as low as they please along with the wages. Its not privatisation its much, much worse than that its offering the worst public service you can possibly get away with to the user at the cheapest possible price whilst the private sector will obviously recruit both the best workforce and the customers who who by making massive changes to their finances can just about afford to move across.
Privatisation whilst still supposedly offering a public service.. gets more obvious by the day.
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leedsterrier
Steve Kindon Terrier
[M0:11]Legend![N4:#someleedsbloke#]
Posts: 1,676
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Post by leedsterrier on Jul 10, 2014 12:18:53 GMT 1
I only lurk here now, but wanted to comment on this thread. For my sins I worked in central government for 8 years and for the last 8 years I worked in the private sector so I've seen both sides of the divide.
I do have to say I think those striking today are in the wrong - it is their right of course, but where the majority of population have done their bit and not taken payrises and in a lot of cases a paycut, I don't see how it can be justified to ask for more when the rest of us are still having to be restrained and understand the need for it. I listened to the radio this morning and they had various representitives from different unions giving their reasons for striking and I struggled to find a valid reason for the action. To address them in order;
Teachers (Working Conditions & Performance Related Pay)- Performance related pay is used in parts of government already as well as widely in the private sector, why would you not want the ability to reward teachers who help their pupils to excellent results, obviously this would vary on area to area. However I cannot see why giving a better wage rise to someone who say has got 95% of their pupils achieving A-Cs, than a teacher who acheives only 50%? In terms of working conditions, I kept hearing that it's a 60 hour week, worklife balance etc etc but yet it's roughly 195 days work a year. I think this is fairly simple to resolve, set the holidays at the statutory minimum (20 days plus 8 bank holidays) - this should give the teachers more than enough time to do all this admin work and planning that they have to do. It would should reduce the need for them to cram all this work into a condensed period of time.
Firefighters (Retirement age) - I find it absolutely ludicris that there seems to be an assumption that as soon as a firefighter hits 55, he's no longer able to withstand the physical rigours of the job - that they become some sort of physical wreck. If I was 55 I'd find this ascertion insulting. The truth is some will be more than capable of continuing providing they look after themselves, so is it really unreasonable ask them to do another 5 years?
Local / National Government workers (Pay) - This one almost made me crash the car, the want a 5% payrise and want the government to fund it from an alleged 20 billion pound war chest the government has amassed to pay off the country's debt. There was no other rationale apart from the line trotted out about the majority being low paid, cleaners and dinner ladies etc. Working in the facilities industry employing cleaners and catering assistants, it is unlikely that the council job is their only one, so while their single job viewed on it's own would look like a pittance - when you take into account the other two jobs they under elsewhere, then the picture isn't as bad as it's made out to be.
The other thing that stuck with me was the line trotted out about having to pay for the crisis caused by the bankers. I'm sick of this narrative, because the truth of the matter is they aren't solely to blame - lots of us are cupable as well. They provided the means for this debt to be run up, but it is us who took out mortgages, loans and credit cards and spent up to the limits who are responsible just as much as the banking system - yet we need a scapegoat. We were seduced by easy money made available by 10 years of Labour and their claims of putting the end to boom and bust. We all spent too much, we borrowed too much and when it's come time to pay the piper we don't like the medicine.
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Jul 10, 2014 12:19:14 GMT 1
Apparently there was a bigger strike in Nov 2011 - I actually don't remember it so it shows what effect it had on my life
In terms of the public sector. I hate this race to the bottom but they do fine in my opinion, generous holiday, pay and pension (relative to the private sector).
The truth is Public Sector workers can leave if they don't like it, presuming they have the talent to warrant the pay they believe they are worth then there will be a job elsewhere paying that rate - of course if you're not worth the money make no mistake in the private sector you'll be found out and given your P45 (unlike the public sector that seems to carry a lot of dead wood in my albeit limited experience)
If you're a cleaner, teacher, accountant, cook, tradesman etc in the public sector there are similar roles in the Private sector. If you're not happy .... move.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 12:19:50 GMT 1
.......face up to the fact that she chose the profession, the terms or working conditions have hardly changed and she's probably not as bad off as she thinks? Maybe working in the private sector for a bit might help her realise this? |
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Post by Grandfather Berty of Cleck on Jul 10, 2014 12:21:36 GMT 1
"ridiculous pension terms" ?? agreed and signed by government to be financially legally binding.. but not when it suits them? cant quite work out how nobody seems to be able to see whats coming. A top surgeon my brother knows left this country 2 weeks ago to work in America. They are going to pay him more but that's not the reason he left. He left because the trust he worked for employed 2 surgeons from abroad on a 'pay as you operate' scheme which ultimately means that 3 in house surgeons that are due to retire will be replaced by 2 substitutes who just don't have the training or experience that is actually required, but they are much cheaper and can be called in when required. They will have little or no knowledge of the 'body' and as they are on 'piece work' the trust will want them on site for as little time as possible. If we are starting to 'lifesave' on the cheap then I guess street cleansing will be shifted out to a bloke who says he has trained some monkeys to do it. The new surgeons pay and conditions of course do not factor in the claims for negligence or plain incompetence that will surely follow on... Its a slippery slope towards the government changing all the rules and agreements and no one will be able to take legal action against them or any other government department. Once we cant sue the National Health etc then the standards can drop as low as they please along with the wages. Its not privatisation its much, much worse than that its offering the worst public service you can possibly get away with to the user at the cheapest possible price whilst the private sector will obviously recruit both the best workforce and the customers who who by making massive changes to their finances can just about afford to move across. Privatisation whilst still supposedly offering a public service.. gets more obvious by the day. 2,523 posts, and at last, finally one I agree with    |
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jasonhand
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,971
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Post by jasonhand on Jul 10, 2014 12:26:18 GMT 1
.......face up to the fact that she chose the profession, the terms or working conditions have hardly changed and she's probably not as bad off as she thinks? Maybe working in the private sector for a bit might help her realise this? You still don't address the issue with your logic the best people who work in our schools would leave. Which would leave our kids where? |
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Post by Grandfather Berty of Cleck on Jul 10, 2014 12:27:46 GMT 1
The truth is Public Sector workers can leave if they don't like it, presuming they have the talent to warrant the pay they believe they are worth then there will be a job elsewhere paying that rate Believe me, hundreds of thousands have. Despite being lower paid than the private sector for decade after decade, the vast majority stayed in the public sector because they had a good pension scheme. It is now impossible to get that pension scheme transferred to another job in the private sector. |
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Post by wasp on Jul 10, 2014 12:28:31 GMT 1
If it wasn't for people like me you would live in a 3rd world country you stupid fuckwit! I took on my job happy with the terms and conditions, but then they decided to change it at their own free will, doubling my workload. If it was up to me it would be an indefinate strike and c**** like you could live in a 3rd world state of a shithole, rest assured you'd complain about the filth, rats and maggots! Ok, are you the Commissar of the Bin Men? I will swear and shout, it makes my opinion more vallid. (not). Only 23% of pupblic sector workers even bothered to vote, that's how lazy and inefficiant they are. If the a Fireman's house burns down, will he break the strike? Jusk asking.... I wouldn't call walking 20 miles per day and shifting up to 30 tonnes of shit around lazy, if you think that's lazy then please come and be lazy with me for the day, you'd be more than welcome by us all! |
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jasonhand
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,971
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Post by jasonhand on Jul 10, 2014 12:29:20 GMT 1
.......face up to the fact that she chose the profession, the terms or working conditions have hardly changed and she's probably not as bad off as she thinks? Maybe working in the private sector for a bit might help her realise this? You still don't address the issue with your logic the best people who work in our schools would leave. Which would leave our kids where? I would also add your comments about her choosing her profession is nonsense. So simply because she choose her profession she can be sh1t all over for the next 30 years. |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jul 10, 2014 12:31:59 GMT 1
Marcus.
if the terms and conditions you sign up for are changed as and when the employer sees fit, you have no terms and conditions.
your wage will never be guaranteed and your position will always be under threat from someone who will do your job for less money/more hours and this will inevitably lead to a serious dumbing down of the position. Clearly there are too many people earning too much for producing too little but going the whole hog the other way isn't sensible, its cheaper. The private sector will end up paying massive amounts to the top end earners and nothing to the lowest end, its already happening and it will seriously divide the nation, whilst the public sector will just lose all its best talent to the private sector and will then have to compete with the private sector for the bottom end earners, its already happening and without a pension scheme that is worth anything and less overtime or extra payments they just wont recruit..
don't look at today, look at the slippery slope...
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Jul 10, 2014 12:32:35 GMT 1
I am truly staggered at the number of private sector workers who seem to hate public sector workers
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Post by Tanzanian Terrier on Jul 10, 2014 12:35:00 GMT 1
Why is working to 68 OK for bricklayers, dustmen, parking attendants etc but "too hard" for fecking teachers? Is that the same "too hard" for working a full day or having 6 weeks off in summer? This is what I mean by a race to the bottom. So you would rather everyone was made to work to 68, rather than everyone retire younger? I'm not saying the country could afford it at the moment mind you. There is some semblance of an argument here. Many in the public sector have had their terms and conditions changed beyond recognition, particularly relating to pensions and retirement ages. I accept and understand that there needs to be change, particularly involving pensions and retirement ages. What is gauling is that, MP's will no doubt vote through their massive pay rise and massive pensions improvements whilst the rest of the public sector will suffer with sore bottoms having had them spanked by the political elite. The pension problems is not something that has just come about from the financial melt down in 2008. People just suddenly are not living longer since 2008, they have started to live longer for many decades and this problem should have been dealt with many decades ago but the political elite fearful of not being reelected decided to kick the problem into the long grass. As an example perhaps in 1980 or 1990 or any other year the government could have easily said for any child born in 1980 or beyond their retirement age might be 70 years. So this would not have impacted on any voters immediately but effected future voters. Likewise, why can you get free prescriptions at 60 when the retirement age is higher and should it be linked to the retirement age. In summary, politicians and civil servants have continued to ignore this problem for decades, until it is too late and now the common man (or woman) is paying the price, whilst the politicians laud it up over the plebs. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 12:37:20 GMT 1
I am truly staggered at the number of private sector workers who seem to hate public sector workers I find it amusing the amount of folk on here who seem to think they are qualified to say what a public sector workers pay and pension should be. I would like to know how many private sector workers on here earn less than 30k and pay more than £400 a month into their pension |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 12:39:57 GMT 1
Find it pathetic how some people treat public sector workers, afterall they are well within in their right. Teachers also have a valid point of % of pay taken out of their payslip weekly for their pension, its a hell of a lot.
Also on pay, bit rich of Cameron and his cronies to give themselves a large pay rise without thinking of the smaller man. The smaller men are now making their voices heard and rightfully so.
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Post by Tez on Jul 10, 2014 12:40:57 GMT 1
The fact the MP's just vote to give themselves a pay rise is sickening
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 10, 2014 12:42:25 GMT 1
I am truly staggered at the number of private sector workers who seem to hate public sector workers I don't believe its hatred, at least it isn't in my case. Just sick of hearing them cry the poor tail and how everyone should feel sorry for them. I have first hand experience of public sector workers leaving to join the private sector and within month realise they are struggling to compete and in many cases should have stayed where they were. |
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Post by Grandfather Berty of Cleck on Jul 10, 2014 12:49:41 GMT 1
Same here. At the height of the recession we agreed to a 20% pay cut to keep our company going. We only got back up to our previous salaries when we were taken over by a Canadian company last year. To say that private sector workers don't know what it is like to have pay freezes/cuts is ill informed and lazy bullshit. Puplic sector workers are being asked to justify their wages in terms of worth and performace, and some of them have been found wanting; 'normal' people have had to live with this for years. And the Fireman Hero bollocks really pisses me off, it's a choice they make, yes, the risks are there there, but no one FORCES them to do the job. Edited in case I offended your English teacher. |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jul 10, 2014 12:50:54 GMT 1
one point;
you leave school at 16, never work and you can claim a full state pension. you also have all your care home fees paid in your dotage, having never paid a penny towards any services you used during your life of indolence.
leave school, work all your life and pay every tax going. buy your own house and invest in the country. they will take your house to pay your care home fees in your dotage and they will take your pension to assist. having paid in all your life they will take what you worked for from you.
the people who attack other WORKERS on here are definitely coming from the wrong angle on this. It does not matter what JOB you do, you work and you must be compensated and appreciated for that and we as a nation need to sort out the free loaders and the workshy and the criminal waste by government (successive ones) before we even contemplate attacking the pay and conditions of working people.
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jul 10, 2014 12:52:15 GMT 1
I am truly staggered at the number of private sector workers who seem to hate public sector workers Don't take it personally lad - we all meet at the same place, share a love of the same game & club, but hate......? I think what we are seeing here (or it this just my own view) is that there is really very little sympathy outside the public sector for the continuation of unsustainable working practices and remuneration - are you old enough to remember Wapping? Now, this is an interesting debate on just how good public sector Unions have been for their members! |
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jul 10, 2014 12:52:44 GMT 1
The fact the MP's just vote to give themselves a pay rise is sickening That's not how it works. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 12:54:07 GMT 1
You still don't address the issue with your logic the best people who work in our schools would leave. Which would leave our kids where? I'll start worrying about that when teacher's conditions really are as bad as they like to make out and we have a shortage. All the time there's plenty of people willing to join the profession, maybe only having to work 195 days a year does have it's benefits and things aren't really as bad as the unions propaganda would have us believe? |
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 10, 2014 12:54:25 GMT 1
one point; you leave school at 16, never work and you can claim a full state pension. you also have all your care home fees paid in your dotage, having never paid a penny towards any services you used during your life of indolence. leave school, work all your life and pay every tax going. buy your own house and invest in the country. they will take your house to pay your care home fees in your dotage and they will take your pension to assist. having paid in all your life they will take what you worked for from you. the people who attack other WORKERS on here are definitely coming from the wrong angle on this. It does not matter what JOB you do, you work and you must be compensated and appreciated for that and we as a nation need to sort out the free loaders and the workshy and the criminal waste by government (successive ones) before we even contemplate attacking the pay and conditions of working people. I agree with all that, but that's not the point of the discussion. |
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Post by Tez on Jul 10, 2014 12:55:18 GMT 1
The fact the MP's just vote to give themselves a pay rise is sickening That's not how it works. How else do you explain the disproportionate pay increase they get compared to those who should get it? |
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Post by ritchie on Jul 10, 2014 12:56:10 GMT 1
Fire men on strike again.... when do they ever not strike? Teachers moaning... If I don't like my terms and conditions I will get another job, I suggest you moaning shits either do the same or be glad you are working. Idiot |
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Post by Essex Terrier on Jul 10, 2014 12:56:24 GMT 1
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 10, 2014 12:57:44 GMT 1
and for the record Ted, I don't agree that all public sector workers are twat's.
That wasn't the point of my post.
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Post by BLUE&WHITE on Jul 10, 2014 12:58:46 GMT 1
FUCK ME... some really narrow minded people on here.
I really like the assumption that because they can move jobs then that is available for everyone, there's a few who seem to think they know better but then have no idea at all about the reasons for strike.
Let's clear one thing up right now... Firefighters...
How many private fire services do you know of? Yes there are some small private sector firefighters but these are usually at airports or at oil rigs/refineries and not that well paid because of the supply/demand.
So let's pretend there is a private option for them (which there isn't really)... As someone has said quite rightly the reason a lot stay in public sector work is that the pension was beneficial. Do them same people realise that the firefighters had joined up and had a retirement age of 50 (or 30 years) and that to enable this early age they currently pay 15% of their salary into their pension?!? So they have been paying this and planning their retirement for potentially the last 20+ years... Then suddenly the government say they have to work another 10 years!?! And that their final pension will be decreased DESPITE THEM PAYING A THIRD MORE FOR IT?!?
I doubt my mortgage company would let me ring them and say I'm going to give them less and I'll take longer to pay it back... But them type of contracts are invincible...why aren't the people who have signed upto a pension...?
For the narrow minded person who said about it being fine to work until 60 as a fireman... Did they know the average death of a fireman is 62? Hence why historically they have been allowed to retire earlier, and if they want someone age 60 climbing 15m up a ladder with an 18kg breathing apparatus set on their back and a 15kg hose over their shoulder to rescue their own children then fair enough... But I wouldn't.
These two reasons combined make the government changes horrifying to those who have put away so much into their pension and planned for their retirement. But the main reason for them being worried is also what happens if they cannot meet the fitness criteria? Currently the government proposal is that they get made redundant due to i capability... That means NO PENSION DESPITE PAYING THEIR £400 a month! NOTHING... NOT EVEN IF THEY GET TO 59, despite originally signing upto a pension at 50.
I'm in full agreement with them and that their treatment is disgusting. Especially when the MPs have a different idea of cost cutting to the rest of us, they may not give themselves a pay rise but they have accepted it! And get a full pension despite not paying a penny in.
Oh and then if you want to be picky about them being greedy they have had 5 years without an inflation increase despite inflation rising and are now have a pay-to-inflation comparison of an 8% pay cut.
However i do agree that the firefighters shouldn't have joined the other unions strikes because it all gets lumped together as 'pay disputes'
Oh and while we are on it, Yorkshire ambulance trust went on strike too... Their reason? Better safety and protection at work... Why? They have the highest level of assaults in any job (even police) so are they out of order too?
The private sector doesn't often consider those who are there for them when needed and the thing about democracy is that they have an option to speak out, it's just a shame those who support them aren't supported in return.
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