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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 10:36:48 GMT 1
The problem with KP is that he was crap as captain, but when they took it off him anyone who got it after that was going to have a problem from him and his nassive ego. He stood up, said Cook was a shite captain and said "who's with me?". It's deliberately devisive and so the selectors had a problem. They (rightly, in my opinion) backed the skipper. Cook is not the reason England are losing matches and series. He is one of many. When we need a good batting performance, we don't get it - when we need the bowlers to step up, we don't get it. One other thing I've been surprised by is why Adil Rashid hasn't been given a chance (perhaps a bit of Yorkshire bas from me) but he has been unplayable at times for Yorkshier. He's getting turn on day 1 on some wickets, and yet he never gets a mention. Rashid is too inconsistent which has always been his down fall. He started his cricket at the same club as me and he always was a very good spinner. He had his action changed during his early years at Yorkshire and I'm not sure it's helped. Leg spin is thee hardest art form in cricket and Rashid is typical of it, brilliant when he gets it right but when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong. England base there cricket on control and Rashid won't give them that hence why he will unlikely get a lot of chance to play test cricket.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Jul 23, 2014 10:39:11 GMT 1
The problem with KP is that he was crap as captain, but when they took it off him anyone who got it after that was going to have a problem from him and his nassive ego. He stood up, said Cook was a shite captain and said "who's with me?". It's deliberately devisive and so the selectors had a problem. They (rightly, in my opinion) backed the skipper. Cook is not the reason England are losing matches and series. He is one of many. When we need a good batting performance, we don't get it - when we need the bowlers to step up, we don't get it. One other thing I've been surprised by is why Adil Rashid hasn't been given a chance (perhaps a bit of Yorkshire bas from me) but he has been unplayable at times for Yorkshier. He's getting turn on day 1 on some wickets, and yet he never gets a mention. Rashid is too inconsistent which has always been his down fall. He started his cricket at the same club as me and he always was a very good spinner. He had his action changed during his early years at Yorkshire and I'm not sure it's helped. Leg spin is thee hardest art form in cricket and Rashid is typical of it, brilliant when he gets it right but when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong. England base there cricket on control and Rashid won't give them that hence why he will unlikely get a lot of chance to play test cricket. I like Rashid - but agree with you about his consistency - and he has actually had an England chance. No one else worth considering though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 11:16:10 GMT 1
Rashid is too inconsistent which has always been his down fall. He started his cricket at the same club as me and he always was a very good spinner. He had his action changed during his early years at Yorkshire and I'm not sure it's helped. Leg spin is thee hardest art form in cricket and Rashid is typical of it, brilliant when he gets it right but when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong. England base there cricket on control and Rashid won't give them that hence why he will unlikely get a lot of chance to play test cricket. I like Rashid - but agree with you about his consistency - and he has actually had an England chance. No one else worth considering though. Decent batter as well, Leg spin is very rare in international cricket because its so hard to master, and often they have higher economy rates but better strike rates. If you are picking a spinner, whoever it is, they need to be selected and stuck with. You cant go into winter series without having a spinner without any/much recent international experience, We are all for bringing on new batsmen, but it seems the bowlers are less likely to be given a chance.
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Post by kennyk2 on Jul 23, 2014 11:26:39 GMT 1
The problem with KP is that he was crap as captain, but when they took it off him anyone who got it after that was going to have a problem from him and his nassive ego. He stood up, said Cook was a shite captain and said "who's with me?". It's deliberately devisive and so the selectors had a problem. They (rightly, in my opinion) backed the skipper. Cook is not the reason England are losing matches and series. He is one of many. When we need a good batting performance, we don't get it - when we need the bowlers to step up, we don't get it. One other thing I've been surprised by is why Adil Rashid hasn't been given a chance (perhaps a bit of Yorkshire bas from me) but he has been unplayable at times for Yorkshier. He's getting turn on day 1 on some wickets, and yet he never gets a mention. Rashid is too inconsistent which has always been his down fall. He started his cricket at the same club as me and he always was a very good spinner. He had his action changed during his early years at Yorkshire and I'm not sure it's helped. Leg spin is thee hardest art form in cricket and Rashid is typical of it, brilliant when he gets it right but when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong. England base there cricket on control and Rashid won't give them that hence why he will unlikely get a lot of chance to play test cricket. The good news is that spin bowlers and especially leg spin bowlers, don't come into their own until they are over 30 (Warne excluded), so if England want to gamble a bit, he's the bowler. Saying that do the ECB strike you as being gamblers? My father was there all 4 days at Scarborough and said that yesterday was fantastic. He was never a Rashid fan, but said that in the second innings he was superb. However, he has to get rid of that one 4 bowl per over if he is going to make it at the highest level.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jul 23, 2014 11:39:56 GMT 1
Rashid is too inconsistent which has always been his down fall. He started his cricket at the same club as me and he always was a very good spinner. He had his action changed during his early years at Yorkshire and I'm not sure it's helped. Leg spin is thee hardest art form in cricket and Rashid is typical of it, brilliant when he gets it right but when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong. England base there cricket on control and Rashid won't give them that hence why he will unlikely get a lot of chance to play test cricket. I like Rashid - but agree with you about his consistency - and he has actually had an England chance. No one else worth considering though. He's been in a test squad, 3 years ago, but never played. He's a better player now than then. Tuffnel was never economical, but was always good to watch and was a clever bowler. We haevn't had a solid reguler leg spinner since. Maybe now is the time for a punt - what have England got to lose? He's bang on form, and could chip in a few runs too.
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Post by pieeater on Jul 23, 2014 11:50:46 GMT 1
I think it's clear Cook will be captain the rest of the summer. I'd be happy with foster or read in as wicket keeper. Buttler needs to improve his keeping considerably before he can be considered for the test side imo. He wasn't even keeping last season as kieswetter had the gloves. Bell maybe just burnt out after back to back ashes and playing one dayers too. On a positive note we do have some good youngsters coming thru in county cricket not least at YCC. Jack Brooks looks handy. Lyth has now found real consistency and Lees is a great prospect. Finn seems to be finding some rhythm again and taking wickets, he will come again. There's the lad Overton at Somerset and Stoneman and borthwick at Durham can both bat big. Brooks is 30 and came to us after five years in Minor Counties with Oxfordshire and then three in first class with Northants so to call him a 'youngster' is pushing it a bit I think Lyth deserves a pick though, he has always been a talent and as you say is now scoring consistently.
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Post by pieeater on Jul 23, 2014 11:53:09 GMT 1
Rashid is too inconsistent which has always been his down fall. He started his cricket at the same club as me and he always was a very good spinner. He had his action changed during his early years at Yorkshire and I'm not sure it's helped. Leg spin is thee hardest art form in cricket and Rashid is typical of it, brilliant when he gets it right but when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong. England base there cricket on control and Rashid won't give them that hence why he will unlikely get a lot of chance to play test cricket. The good news is that spin bowlers and especially leg spin bowlers, don't come into their own until they are over 30 (Warne excluded), so if England want to gamble a bit, he's the bowler. Saying that do the ECB strike you as being gamblers? My father was there all 4 days at Scarborough and said that yesterday was fantastic. He was never a Rashid fan, but said that in the second innings he was superb. However, he has to get rid of that one 4 bowl per over if he is going to make it at the highest level. Adil imo has focused too much on his batting over the years, a victim of the English philosophy that a spinner has to be able to bat (which is one of the reasons Monty never cemented his place, not that I am advocating for him now). I would rather he'd dedicated himself to being a frontline leggie who can bat a bit, but he's tried to become an all rounder.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 12:01:14 GMT 1
Can't wait until Jos Buttler drops a dolly just like he did against Scotland in the ODI and his numerous missed stumping too. Just not good enough a 'keeper or red ball player YET but is living off one innings v SL. Bairstow similarly isn't ready with the gloves nor the bat just yet.
Should be James Foster, the best keeper in the world atm (better than Read to those who watch CC regularly) and with the depth in Englands tail (All 11 at Lords have a international 50) he could easily slot in at 8, the only trouble being Stokes' form with the bat.
As for Cook, he needs dropping for the rest of the summer and some time off. Let either Bell or Root skipper for 3 tests (potentially longer) and bring in one of Carberry/Lyth/Vince/Lees to cover. I'd go Lyth as he's leading run scorer in DIV 1.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 12:06:36 GMT 1
The good news is that spin bowlers and especially leg spin bowlers, don't come into their own until they are over 30 (Warne excluded), so if England want to gamble a bit, he's the bowler. Saying that do the ECB strike you as being gamblers? My father was there all 4 days at Scarborough and said that yesterday was fantastic. He was never a Rashid fan, but said that in the second innings he was superb. However, he has to get rid of that one 4 bowl per over if he is going to make it at the highest level. Adil imo has focused too much on his batting over the years, a victim of the English philosophy that a spinner has to be able to bat (which is one of the reasons Monty never cemented his place, not that I am advocating for him now). I would rather he'd dedicated himself to being a frontline leggie who can bat a bit, but he's tried to become an all rounder. Not true at all, Dilly has always been an all rounder and batted 7/8. He was shoved up the order when Yorkshire had a lack of batting options a few years ago and flourished and it was largely his batting that kept him in the side ahead of Rafiq/Wainwright. The main issue for Rashid was the change of captain to Gale. Where Vaughan and McGrath before him had set in/out fields until Rashid had got into his rhythm, Gale gave him the odd over and if he had a bad one took him off. That ruined his confidence. Gale though has improved as a captain and trusts Rashid more but the tendency is still there to whip him off after the go after him. Added to that there are more green tops as we push for results which hinders progress of spinners. The more a spinner bowls the better he becomes
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Jul 23, 2014 13:06:26 GMT 1
The problem is that England need a spinner to keep it tight at one end as we're not posting the big scores that will allow us to play a wicket taking bowler that'll go at 4 an over. Also cook hasn't given ali many overs so I'd imagine he'd be similarly reluctant to give rashid five or six overs to get his eye in.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 14:41:33 GMT 1
If England play 4 seamers then they don't need a spinner to keep it tight. It's just and English misconception due to 2004 and 2005 when Giles did that job. If you have two attacking seamers and one or two to do the grafting (a bit like Bresnan used to do) then you can easily play an attacking spinner.
The issue is playing 5 tests in 42 days and that Anderson/Broad aren't fit enough. That is why they need someone to ease their workload due to lack of recovery time. Although saying that County Championship players do a hell of a lot more work than they do and manage it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 14:58:51 GMT 1
If England play 4 seamers then they don't need a spinner to keep it tight. It's just and English misconception due to 2004 and 2005 when Giles did that job. If you have two attacking seamers and one or two to do the grafting (a bit like Bresnan used to do) then you can easily play an attacking spinner. The issue is playing 5 tests in 42 days and that Anderson/Broad aren't fit enough. That is why they need someone to ease their workload due to lack of recovery time. Although saying that County Championship players do a hell of a lot more work than they do and manage it. I don't think it helps that test match pitches are bowlers graveyards where as county wickets generally provide results. The lords pitch would of been as flat as a London pint if Notts hadn't of provided such a road. But I do take your point, 5 tests in 42 days is a lot. And bresnan back would be great but he needs overs under his belt. This england side really does need a shake up.
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Post by amoeba on Jul 23, 2014 15:41:04 GMT 1
The problem with KP is that he was crap as captain, but when they took it off him anyone who got it after that was going to have a problem from him and his nassive ego. He stood up, said Cook was a shite captain and said "who's with me?". It's deliberately devisive and so the selectors had a problem. They (rightly, in my opinion) backed the skipper. Cook is not the reason England are losing matches and series. He is one of many. When we need a good batting performance, we don't get it - when we need the bowlers to step up, we don't get it. One other thing I've been surprised by is why Adil Rashid hasn't been given a chance (perhaps a bit of Yorkshire bas from me) but he has been unplayable at times for Yorkshier. He's getting turn on day 1 on some wickets, and yet he never gets a mention. Rashid is too inconsistent which has always been his down fall. He started his cricket at the same club as me and he always was a very good spinner. He had his action changed during his early years at Yorkshire and I'm not sure it's helped. Leg spin is thee hardest art form in cricket and Rashid is typical of it, brilliant when he gets it right but when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong. England base there cricket on control and Rashid won't give them that hence why he will unlikely get a lot of chance to play test cricket. Spot on,Rafiq would be the better choice for England. Fewer 5 fors but also fewer innings going at 5 p/o,makes their planning easier. Sent from my HTC One S using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 13:20:00 GMT 1
Chris Jordan has likely bowled himself back into the XI on Sunday. He's taken 3 wickets this morning at Horsham including Jon Trott. Pace and bounce. Probs come in for broad.
I agree about Buttler not good enough with gloves yet..very ageist & short sighted approach from England & as someone else pointed out the policy of picking experienced men in form worked superbly for Aus. Eg Rogers and Haddin even tho neither will be around for more than a couple of years.
Re. Brooks I've been down in sunny Hampshire all season so not seen him play...assumed he was another yongster off the Yorkshire conveyor belt of talent. Either way he's having a great season.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 15:53:54 GMT 1
Chris Jordan has likely bowled himself back into the XI on Sunday. He's taken 3 wickets this morning at Horsham including Jon Trott. Pace and bounce. Probs come in for broad. I agree about Buttler not good enough with gloves yet..very ageist & short sighted approach from England & as someone else pointed out the policy of picking experienced men in form worked superbly for Aus. Eg Rogers and Haddin even tho neither will be around for more than a couple of years. Re. Brooks I've been down in sunny Hampshire all season so not seen him play...assumed he was another yongster off the Yorkshire conveyor belt of talent. Either way he's having a great season. Agreed Joe. Jordan should count himself unlucky to have been dropped. As far as I know with Brooks, we got him for Northamptonshire. Don't think we can claim him as one ours.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 16:15:38 GMT 1
Chris Jordan has likely bowled himself back into the XI on Sunday. He's taken 3 wickets this morning at Horsham including Jon Trott. Pace and bounce. Probs come in for broad. I agree about Buttler not good enough with gloves yet..very ageist & short sighted approach from England & as someone else pointed out the policy of picking experienced men in form worked superbly for Aus. Eg Rogers and Haddin even tho neither will be around for more than a couple of years. Re. Brooks I've been down in sunny Hampshire all season so not seen him play...assumed he was another yongster off the Yorkshire conveyor belt of talent. Either way he's having a great season. Agreed Joe. Jordan should count himself unlucky to have been dropped. As far as I know with Brooks, we got him for Northamptonshire. Don't think we can claim him as one ours. From what I have seen of Brooks he is a very good county bowler, but not upto international standard.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 16:22:49 GMT 1
Brooks is the best bowler in county cricket atm, better than Finn and Jordan and definitely Woakes. Problem is hes just turned 30 and this England set up (which IMO is all wrong from top to bottom) won't pick him due to that age and as a Yorkie I'm selfish so glad.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 16:26:55 GMT 1
Yeah I mistakenly thought he was a youngster.
So does anyone reckon there'll be other changes to the XI?
Robson, Stokes candidates?
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Post by jjamez on Jul 24, 2014 16:47:12 GMT 1
I think woakes is one of the unlucky cricketers in english cricket. Last few seasons he's scored runs and got wickets, england ask him to put pace on he has done and its the same story.
What has robson done wrong? Scored a hundred? Theres only bell and cook out of the batters who haven't got a hundred for england this summer. Yeah his technique is unaesthetic but a lot of international players have had odd batting styles.
Stokes broad and prior are the ones that should miss out. Ones definitely gone. Another is odds on to miss out, do the powers that be have the guts to drop the other?
Hopefully as its due to fitness rather than form.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 17:00:28 GMT 1
Woakes is unlucky?! He's just a very good county cricketer.
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Post by jjamez on Jul 24, 2014 17:09:11 GMT 1
Woakes is unlucky?! He's just a very good county cricketer. And how many very good county players get overlooked for dross? Think back to pattinson from Notts as one example. He's been a very good county player for a good few years and is constantly being overlooked because the selectors have favorites that they think are undroppable and one day will come good again. Good county players need the chance to prove that they are international players, I dont mean one test and few odi's. I mean a set of matches. I'm not just on about woakes either. Taylor and patel at notts, arguably carbs at hamps, compton at somerset. Borthwick at durham etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 17:46:16 GMT 1
Woakes is unlucky?! He's just a very good county cricketer. And how many very good county players get overlooked for dross? Think back to pattinson from Notts as one example. He's been a very good county player for a good few years and is constantly being overlooked because the selectors have favorites that they think are undroppable and one day will come good again. Good county players need the chance to prove that they are international players, I dont mean one test and few odi's. I mean a set of matches. I'm not just on about woakes either. Taylor and patel at notts, arguably carbs at hamps, compton at somerset. Borthwick at durham etc. Woakes isn't overlooked for dross though. Anderson, Broad, Plunkett, Jordan and Stokes are all far superior bowlers and then there are the likes of Overton and Finn in CC. He's just a good county all rounder not good enough with the bat either for international cricket. As for the rest of the players you've mentioned, not really pulling up trees this season. Taylor - Hasn't scored big enough runs in county cricket ala Lees, Lyth, Vince, Roy etc Patel - Bits and pieces all rounder, not good enough with bat or ball Carberry - see Taylor. And 34. Compton - see Taylor averaging 30 in CC?! Poor technically too. Borthwick - Jesus wept. He's nowhere near good enough. How did he ever get a test cap is laughable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 19:07:01 GMT 1
Last England captain called kp a c*** The current one thinks the same Something tells me he's poison and the young players of the future are better off with him not around. He can't even score runs in a charity match anyway so he's no big loss
It's all just a waiting game till root takes the role
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Post by jjamez on Jul 24, 2014 21:41:05 GMT 1
And how many very good county players get overlooked for dross? Think back to pattinson from Notts as one example. He's been a very good county player for a good few years and is constantly being overlooked because the selectors have favorites that they think are undroppable and one day will come good again. Good county players need the chance to prove that they are international players, I dont mean one test and few odi's. I mean a set of matches. I'm not just on about woakes either. Taylor and patel at notts, arguably carbs at hamps, compton at somerset. Borthwick at durham etc. Woakes isn't overlooked for dross though. Anderson, Broad, Plunkett, Jordan and Stokes are all far superior bowlers and then there are the likes of Overton and Finn in CC. He's just a good county all rounder not good enough with the bat either for international cricket. As for the rest of the players you've mentioned, not really pulling up trees this season. Taylor - Hasn't scored big enough runs in county cricket ala Lees, Lyth, Vince, Roy etc Patel - Bits and pieces all rounder, not good enough with bat or ball Carberry - see Taylor. And 34. Compton - see Taylor averaging 30 in CC?! Poor technically too. Borthwick - Jesus wept. He's nowhere near good enough. How did he ever get a test cap is laughable. i never said woakes was overlooked for dross, it was a sweaping statement. he actually has a decent batting av for his batting position in CC or he did have and ECB made him lions captain. in terms of taylor he got one test cap and has never been allowed to try again, dont forget that was against steyn and morkel. Patel has a good batting av but is a pt spinner but still better than kerrigan and has been for a long time, the thing that costs him is physique. As for carbs and compton i was saying that they didnt get a fair crack of the whip. they have been in a shoved out i would say arguably to the better player but with cook atm i cant. With Borthwick hes scored a double hundred this season, they just dont let him bowl and this is what swann has said, young spinners get no chance in CC atm, and borthwick and rashid are suffering, as much as i hate to say it but they need to leave durham and yorks respectively to progress as players. you mention overton, which one are you referring to there?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 21:54:13 GMT 1
Scott Borthwick has been unable to bowl most of the season due to injury. But still isn't as good a spinner as the likes of Kerrigan, Rashid, Panesar, Tredwell, Rafiq. Doesn't matter what he does with the bat. Rashid doesn't need to leave Yorks he needs favourable wickets and an understanding captain. Gale hasn't used him effectively for far too long but due to drier wickets because of the weather he's starting to pick up wickets rather than bowling on green tops. Borthwick though needs to leave Durham. Taylor, meh. He had a chance with England ODI last summer and failed against Ireland of all teams but I fully expect him to tour WIndies this winter. Still not as good as Root/Ballance/Ali in that middle order though. Overton... the better one
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Post by jjamez on Jul 24, 2014 22:15:25 GMT 1
to me borthwick could become a very good all round cricketer, fields slips and can learn from colly in other areas. bats well and if he sorts his leg spin then he could become a what steve smith kinda player? leg spinners are a kind of novelty at TC and imo ballance isnt a bad one on that one over all be it. by overton then id say jamie although injury prone like tymel mills and stuart meaker.
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Post by pixie on Jul 24, 2014 23:11:46 GMT 1
To get back to Cook I think he must be about the worst England captain I've ever known, and I'm not talking about his batting. Just look at England's results with him in charge. Absolutely woeful. I think he has sawdust for a brain. However did he get the job? I believe the first time I realised he was useless was about a year ago, I forget the match. Anyway he was given out LBW and it was absolutely plumb. It was no big deal however as we had plenty of wickets in hand and we were not in any trouble. What happened? The "big girl's blouse" used (wasted) one of our two reviews and it was quickly rejected. I thought at the time, "you selfish bugger"! Anyway I've no doubt he'll keep the job for this summer. The idiots at Lords can't see that to expect a man with no form or brains to suddenly turn into a winning captain is lunatic thinking.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 23:36:42 GMT 1
I liked Ballance's action. Smooth and he was accurate too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 10:47:34 GMT 1
Perplexing selection for me.
Stokes & Plunkett out.
Jordan and Woakes in.
Pace bounce and swing likely here today.
Liam very unlucky imo. He's been better with bat and ball than stokes and we need to take 20 wickets.
Jordan is capable with the bat and so I would've just changed stokes for Jordan.
Kumar said it was swinging round corners in practice this morning so I fear for Cook and Robson both desperately vulnerable outsid the off stump. I'm surprised we've desired to bat. This could be messy,
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Post by kennyk2 on Jul 27, 2014 10:50:04 GMT 1
Perplexing selection for me. Stokes & Plunkett out. Jordan and Woakes in. Pace bounce and swing likely here today. Liam very unlucky imo. He's been better with bat and ball than stokes and we need to take 20 wickets. Jordan is capable with the bat and so I would've just changed stokes for Jordan. Kumar said it was swinging round corners in practice this morning so I fear for Cook and Robson both desperately vulnerable outsid the off stump. I'm surprised we've desired to bat. This could be messy, Plunkett has been best of a pretty bad bunch this summer, but it appears that he hasn't been dropped, just rested (semantics?).
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