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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 12:50:47 GMT 1
Religion is not per se evil. Corruption exists within it, this is mans interpretation and use of it. At a simple level nearly all religions preach a reasonable message. Should religions not exist such people would just find another umbrella in which to dress up their wrongdoings (celebrity, nationalism, racism, the BBC).
I believe we have an underlying issue with human nature and should not confuse that with issues with the organisations they choose to help cover up their evil doings.
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 28, 2015 13:26:51 GMT 1
It is when it is taught as a truth. When children learn about evolution they are not taught - this is what we think might have happened - they are taught that this IS what happened but scientists will agree that it is only a theory. The gaps that I refer to include the fact that if the theory is correct there should be some evidence today of the continuation of the changing of species from one to another, rather than change within the species. This I guess is my big problem with it. Also, the missing link remains missing. I'm just not convinced by it as it stands. It should also be noted that there are plenty of eminent scientists who also have a faith ( as well as many who don't) and they don't seem to have a problem with holding both points of view. .[/quote] That is such a cop out , it really is! Children learn about evolution based on absolutely masses of evidence, both in human evolution and other animals and plants. Human evolution can be traced back to Africa and from there back to small primitive primates that bare little resemblance to a modern day human- a different species of primate altogether. that isn't theory- its proven fact. Thats why its right it should be taught as such in schools- because it is knowledge. Thats what children should be taught- facts and knowledge, not mythical fairy stories with blind faith as the only explanation. Even taking into account the missing link straw youre clinging to, ( which being that the evidence is skeletal remains that are millions of years old- it is ridiculous to say it 'should' have been found) , If God created man in his own image, then science now proves god must be a hairy small primate, walking on 4 limbs with a brain the size of a walnut. On the religious eminent scientists - thats something I struggle to get my head round to be honest. Can only presume they shape and bend their religious beliefs conveniently around what they know through science.
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Novakaine
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Post by Novakaine on Feb 28, 2015 13:58:52 GMT 1
If God created the first life on Earth in his own image, God must be a bacteria. (bacterium)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 14:07:18 GMT 1
Who or what created the universe? Where does it end, what comes after it? If we can look back into space and see the birth of a star and the destruction of a galaxy by a black hole, is somebody else looking back into space and seeing the destruction of our galaxy right now - do we actually exist or are we already consumed by the death of the sun.
Depends where you are looking from I guess.
Science explains a lot, it doesn't explain everything.
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Post by 3Pipe on Feb 28, 2015 14:17:48 GMT 1
Science explains a hell of a lot more than religion though.
If you've got the two theories that we have evolved over millions of years from more simple lifeforms or a few thousand years ago some geezer with a beard created the first man - and I quote - "out of the dust of the ground and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life causing him to become a living soul" I know where my money is going every time.
I think this is the problem most have with religion, it's pure and utter bollocks, fairy stories, myth, bollocks, and it continues to be preached as 'the truth'. It's no wonder as a species we are so fucked up.
In thousands of years from now, if we are still existing as a species, they'll look back at us pissing themselves.
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 28, 2015 14:19:56 GMT 1
It doesn't mel, but it explains more and more with every passing generation. It explains everything that man knows as fact, which amounts to trillions of things. The scores on the doors are - science TRILLIONS, religion NIL. Baring in mind the earth is roughly half way through its expected lifespan, then religion is going to have to have a hell of a second half get back in the game!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 14:22:56 GMT 1
It doesn't mel, but it explains more and more with every passing generation. It explains everything that man knows as fact, which amounts to trillions of things. The scores on the doors are - science TRILLIONS, religion NIL. Baring in mind the earth is roughly half way through its expected lifespan, then religion is going to have to have a hell of a second half get back in the game!! :D What was here before the universe Captain?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 14:24:21 GMT 1
This thread has gone from the employment of a chaplain at Town to a debate on religion and it's ways. It's a shame it has because some are assuming this chaplain is going to be preeching the word of God to the players.
The way it looks to me is the club (probably Powell) has brought in someone who can be there for the players and staff to talk to about anything in an peaceful environment. He's unattached from the playing squad, he will be there to allow anyone to get something off their chest or just a neutral voice.
I'm not religious anymore. I don't beleive in God. I don't follow a holy book. But when I needed a neutral voice, someone to listen to me and somebody to tell me everything will be fine, a chaplain helped. He never mentioned God, Christianity or the Bible.
Forget his religious connection, he's not a preecher.
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Post by ritchie on Feb 28, 2015 14:27:34 GMT 1
Who or what created the universe? Where does it end, what comes after it? If we can look back into space and see the birth of a star and the destruction of a galaxy by a black hole, is somebody else looking back into space and seeing the destruction of our galaxy right now - do we actually exist or are we already consumed by the death of the sun. Depends where you are looking from I guess. Science explains a lot, it doesn't explain everything. Datm, ladies and gentleman. We have it all
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Post by 3Pipe on Feb 28, 2015 14:27:58 GMT 1
What was here before the universe Captain? Was there a 'here'?
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Post by 3Pipe on Feb 28, 2015 14:29:50 GMT 1
This thread has gone from the employment of a chaplain at Town to a debate on religion and it's ways. It's a shame it has because some are assuming this chaplain is going to be preeching the word of God to the players. The way it looks to me is the club (probably Powell) has brought in someone who can be there for the players and staff to talk to about anything in an peaceful environment. He's unattached from the playing squad, he will be there to allow anyone to get something off their chest or just a neutral voice. I'm not religious anymore. I don't beleive in God. I don't follow a holy book. But when I needed a neutral voice, someone to listen to me and somebody to tell me everything will be fine, a chaplain helped. He never mentioned God, Christianity or the Bible. Forget his religious connection, he's not a preecher. I think most can see that that's all good Ben regardless of where we stand on religion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 14:32:07 GMT 1
What was here before the universe Captain? Was there a 'here'? So there was nothing?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 14:33:08 GMT 1
Who or what created the universe? Where does it end, what comes after it? If we can look back into space and see the birth of a star and the destruction of a galaxy by a black hole, is somebody else looking back into space and seeing the destruction of our galaxy right now - do we actually exist or are we already consumed by the death of the sun. Depends where you are looking from I guess. Science explains a lot, it doesn't explain everything. Datm, ladies and gentleman. We have it all ;) Just asking the question, I know you don't have the answers though.
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Post by SaudiTerrier on Feb 28, 2015 14:38:18 GMT 1
This thread has gone from the employment of a chaplain at Town to a debate on religion and it's ways. It's a shame it has because some are assuming this chaplain is going to be preeching the word of God to the players. The way it looks to me is the club (probably Powell) has brought in someone who can be there for the players and staff to talk to about anything in an peaceful environment. He's unattached from the playing squad, he will be there to allow anyone to get something off their chest or just a neutral voice. I'm not religious anymore. I don't beleive in God. I don't follow a holy book. But when I needed a neutral voice, someone to listen to me and somebody to tell me everything will be fine, a chaplain helped. He never mentioned God, Christianity or the Bible. Forget his religious connection, he's not a preecher. Happens pretty much every time a slight religious connection might possibly be applied to a thread. People forget the original topic and why we come on this board i.e. to talk football and HTAFC, and start discussing the meaning of life instead. Honestly quite surprised we haven't seen Otium coming on ranting on about "moslems" again.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Feb 28, 2015 14:41:49 GMT 1
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terrier5
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Post by terrier5 on Feb 28, 2015 14:48:04 GMT 1
Isn't it funny how non-religious people who moan about religious people being intolerant, prejudiced, and forcing their religious beliefs down everyone else's throats are often themselves intolerant and prejudiced towards religious people, and go round trying to force their non-religion onto others.
You are confusing me giving my opinion on religion and those who believe in it, with me 'forcing' them to be non-religious. How exactly am I doing that? In terms of forcing beliefs onto the other side, its a very one sided arrangement , even in todays more secular society. I have relatives and friends who are religious to varying degrees as Im sure everyone has, so Im not prejudiced against them for it. But I do think they have some kind of mental issue to believe in something so ridiculous. Doesn't make them bad people though. We all have quirks that defy logic and reason. Driving to the other end of the country to watch some men kick a ball about is thought as one by many! Once again Captain, you are misquoting and being disingenuous to try make your point. No one is accusing of you of forcing anyone to be non religious. You are forcing your atheism on the thread and taking the point as far as it will go. It's undeniable - if you read the thread in its entirety - that those arguing for atheism are in fact a lot less tolerant of different opinion / belief than anyone here who is religious. Now I'm not a religious man, I like several others here, have walked away from the whole thing, it just doesn't do anything for me. But I'm able to respect religious folk and their beliefs - something you are incapable of doing; offering only outspoken contempt for anyone who believes in the pixies etc. Has no one else come across padres in the armed services? Did anyone get ruthlessly radicalised into attending Sunday school and organising coffee mornings following sleepless nights in Bosnia? I'd guess a lot of these footballers could do with a quiet word from a wise, sympathetic person at the club - whether they're getting into trouble with booze, gambling or whatever because it certainly affects many players. Good idea from the club.
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Post by 3Pipe on Feb 28, 2015 14:52:52 GMT 1
It's just a theory, one supported by many and also opposed by many. To me it's quite a logical theory, matter cancelled out by antimatter though I do subscribe to multiverse theory. I can see it all being infinite. The pressures, temperatures and distances out there are impossible to get your head around. Personally I find it hard to think outside of 3 dimensions but when you throw spacetime into the equation the very question “What happened before the Big Bang?” is illogical since spacetime does not exist in a singularity. In other words, there is no before or after there just 'is'. Can I explain that? No, it's beyond my intelligence, it took me the best part of a month to understand resonance in electrical circuits and I cheated at my calculus exam by writing the formulae inside my pencil case.
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Post by OldRastrickian on Feb 28, 2015 15:01:41 GMT 1
In his great work "On The Origin Of Species", Darwin conceded that his theory was totally undermined by the fossil record....which, rather than showing gradual changes in species, shows new species suddenly arriving, fully formed.
We are told that all of today's mammals evolved from a creature about the size of a shrew. So, to get from "shrew" to, say, African elephant, requires a helluva lot of morphing.....there should be countless transitional fossils as the creature increased in size, and changed shape. But nothing....the African elephant suddenly appears in the fossil record, looking pretty much like it does today.
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Post by 3Pipe on Feb 28, 2015 15:03:38 GMT 1
Always thought the elephant evolved from the mammoth.
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Post by Manx Terrier on Feb 28, 2015 15:03:57 GMT 1
Why would anyone who had faith be classed as having a mental health issue? I am no bible basher but i believe in God and class myself a Christian, and i find it strange that in todays society the same people who believe in and hunt ghosts, believe in demons and evil spirits, cannot by the same token believe in God. Over the years i think there was a higher risk of developing a mental health issue keeping the faith with Town than any religion! Do you think believing in all powerful creature who lives in the sky, without any evidence to support it, is normal behaviour? It's equally as mad as believing in ghosts, demons and evil spirits - I can't see any difference. None of that is to say the chaplain will not be useful to people at the clubI agree with you that it's the same as believing in ghosts etc. I agree with you that it's the same as believing in ghosts etc. Apologies for reposting what I posted in Offtopic a while ago but these two passages are amongst my favourite quotations! 1. Bertrand Russell - "If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." 2. Richard Dawkins - "The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first."
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Post by 3Pipe on Feb 28, 2015 15:07:37 GMT 1
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 28, 2015 16:31:49 GMT 1
You are confusing me giving my opinion on religion and those who believe in it, with me 'forcing' them to be non-religious. How exactly am I doing that? In terms of forcing beliefs onto the other side, its a very one sided arrangement , even in todays more secular society. I have relatives and friends who are religious to varying degrees as Im sure everyone has, so Im not prejudiced against them for it. But I do think they have some kind of mental issue to believe in something so ridiculous. Doesn't make them bad people though. We all have quirks that defy logic and reason. Driving to the other end of the country to watch some men kick a ball about is thought as one by many! Once again Captain, you are misquoting and being disingenuous to try make your point. No one is accusing of you of forcing anyone to be non religious. You are forcing your atheism on the thread and taking the point as far as it will go. It's undeniable - if you read the thread in its entirety - that those arguing for atheism are in fact a lot less tolerant of different opinion / belief than anyone here who is religious. Now I'm not a religious man, I like several others here, have walked away from the whole thing, it just doesn't do anything for me. But I'm able to respect religious folk and their beliefs - something you are incapable of doing; offering only outspoken contempt for anyone who believes in the pixies etc. Has no one else come across padres in the armed services? Did anyone get ruthlessly radicalised into attending Sunday school and organising coffee mornings following sleepless nights in Bosnia? I'd guess a lot of these footballers could do with a quiet word from a wise, sympathetic person at the club - whether they're getting into trouble with booze, gambling or whatever because it certainly affects many players. Good idea from the club. Youre selectively reading the bits you want to read and ignoring others to fit. . Im not arguing against people being religious ( though Im of the opinion the world would be better off if no one was) , Im arguing against teaching it as a fact in schools. To do that I have to explain why I think its nonsense- otherwise whats the point of the opinion??? Likening god to pixies is not meant as contempt- its meant as an illustration of why religion is nonsense- 2 imaginary things with no evidence to prove their existence, yet one is acceptable to believe in, whilst the other means you're a fruitcake. I don't get the difference thats all.
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 28, 2015 16:34:23 GMT 1
It doesn't mel, but it explains more and more with every passing generation. It explains everything that man knows as fact, which amounts to trillions of things. The scores on the doors are - science TRILLIONS, religion NIL. Baring in mind the earth is roughly half way through its expected lifespan, then religion is going to have to have a hell of a second half get back in the game!! What was here before the universe Captain? A rather large space where the universe would eventually exist.
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Post by huddstim on Feb 28, 2015 22:28:23 GMT 1
I don't see it as a religious thing. I see it as somebody to just have 10 minutes with, privately, to get things off your chest. So why appoint a chaplain rather than a counsellor? The job is defined by its religious attributes first, with the counselling as secondary. Should Town recruit players according to their religious beliefs rather than their footballing ability? If you think that sounds ridiculous look at the history of Glasgow Rangers. Unless their beliefs prevent them from doing their jobs properly (I would not want a Catholic to advise on birth control, or a Jehovah's Witness on blood transfusions), some Christians may well be excellent counsellors, but so are many people with different beliefs. What evidence is there that faith makes anybody a better person or more capable of providing pastoral care? There are plenty of examples to the contrary. I personally know people who were damaged for life by the abuse they received from "Christians" as children. However, if Shankly could have signed St John for Town we might have seen a miracle..............................
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 22:37:58 GMT 1
I don't see it as a religious thing. I see it as somebody to just have 10 minutes with, privately, to get things off your chest. So why appoint a chaplain rather than a counsellor? The job is defined by its religious attributes first, with the counselling as secondary. Should Town recruit players according to their religious beliefs rather than their footballing ability? If you think that sounds ridiculous look at the history of Glasgow Rangers. Unless their beliefs prevent them from doing their jobs properly (I would not want a Catholic to advise on birth control, or a Jehovah's Witness on blood transfusions), some Christians may well be excellent counsellors, but so are many people with different beliefs. What evidence is there that faith makes anybody a better person or more capable of providing pastoral care? There are plenty of examples to the contrary. I personally know people who were damaged for life by the abuse they received from "Christians" as children. However, if Shankly could have signed St John for Town we might have seen a miracle.............................. I didn't say his faith made him a better person than somebody who doesn't have a faith. I said from my personal experience, a chaplain was a great help. He offered great support in my hour of need so to speak and never once mentioned anything religious.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 23:51:45 GMT 1
Science explains a hell of a lot more than religion though. If you've got the two theories that we have evolved over millions of years from more simple lifeforms or a few thousand years ago some geezer with a beard created the first man - and I quote - "out of the dust of the ground and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life causing him to become a living soul" I know where my money is going every time. I think this is the problem most have with religion, it's pure and utter bollocks, fairy stories, myth, bollocks, and it continues to be preached as 'the truth'. It's no wonder as a species we are so fucked up. In thousands of years from now, if we are still existing as a species, they'll look back at us pissing themselves. Halleluja!
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Post by terrierng on Mar 1, 2015 13:02:30 GMT 1
What was here before the universe Captain? A rather large space where the universe would eventually exist. Surely you can prove that,beyond all doubt, otherwise its just heresay or mumbo jumbo,anyone beliveing things they cant prove have mental health problems right?
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Novakaine
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Post by Novakaine on Mar 1, 2015 13:25:06 GMT 1
Nobody knows what existed before the Universe, or how it actually came to be. That was 13.8 billion years ago. I enjoy listening to theories, though
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Post by OldRastrickian on Mar 1, 2015 13:36:28 GMT 1
Always thought the elephant evolved from the mammoth. From "shrew" to mammoth.....even more morphing! Imagine all the never-ending changing of size and shape......yet no fossils of those transitional species found. I'm sure dogs haven't eaten them all............
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Mar 1, 2015 13:49:52 GMT 1
Always thought the elephant evolved from the mammoth. From "shrew" to mammoth.....even more morphing! Imagine all the never-ending changing of size and shape......yet no fossils of those transitional species found. I'm sure dogs haven't eaten them all............ I believe in evolution but the missing link is a mystery
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