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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 30, 2016 0:14:01 GMT 1
Is the writing on the wall....have we all seen enough to know that a goal a game is nowhere near good enough? That a porous, slow defence means we need at least two goals a match? As the table takes shape is it clear we are destined for the odd win and mid table obscurity? Forget the Cup, we have gone out feebly since the 1930's. Still November, what have we to look forward to?
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Post by Captainslapper on Nov 30, 2016 0:44:51 GMT 1
I guess your career as an inspirational speaker never really took off then oti? Theres 2 options really. We can our white flags, wallow in a bit of self pity and basically . Or we can grow a pair, look forward to the next game and support the team in the hope we get back on the horse after a pretty lousy run and challenge for a top 6 spot come may. I get the impression you've already made your mind up which course of action you think is best?
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Post by Venezuelan Pete on Nov 30, 2016 0:47:34 GMT 1
We're 6th
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Post by The Sheriff Strikes Back on Nov 30, 2016 0:50:34 GMT 1
Is the writing on the wall....have we all seen enough to know that a goal a game is nowhere near good enough? That a porous, slow defence means we need at least two goals a match? As the table takes shape is it clear we are destined for the odd win and mid table obscurity? Forget the Cup, we have gone out feebly since the 1930's. Still November, what have we to look forward to? Despite the shocking form I think there is still enough to get us at least a top 8 finish, PROVIDING we sign the right players in Jan, until then I feel like we are in limp mode. Most of the defence are woefully out of form, we have one striker who ain't interested and another who is completely wasted on the wing, we have 3 ineffectual wingers with our best one in the physio room, and a Goalkeeper who simply ain't good enough. However, we are heavenly blessed in the centre of the park, this current crop of CM's is one of the best we have seen at this club, so let's get using them more, stop pissing about with the ball out wide where it is currently pointless, and get us playing through the middle
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Post by Boaty McBoatface on Nov 30, 2016 0:51:10 GMT 1
Wigan were about as bad a team as I've seen in a long time...and yet we lost to them at home.
And you can say what you like about the referee (a total disgrace would be putting it mildly) but we're a complete shambles at the moment, there's no getting away from that.
The one positive is that if we can turn it around we've got points in the bag already.
The worrying thing is that we're still at least 3 players short of a half-decent team and I can't see much happening to change this in January.
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Post by Cosmo Kramer on Nov 30, 2016 0:51:43 GMT 1
I can't help but think our fast start has somewhat warped all expectations a bit. At the beginning of the season, I was looking forward to seeing good football, and a season pushing the top half. Despite the recent results the general football is still pretty good, and we're sixth. This means we're meeting my expectations so far, so i'm happy enough.
Performances have dipped a bit, but to me it is still clear what Wagner wants from us in terms of playing style, and it will take time, maybe quite a long time, to get right properly. Remember he has had to transform this club. Before he came in everything about the club was at a low. Performances were dour, the fans seemed to lack energy. So to turn us into what we are now is impressive, but perfecting his style will take time.
There are some obvious issues, the lack of goals, set pieces. But these are all solvable. I trust Wagner to find a solution. Last season we scored plenty of goals under Wagner, so we know this system can produce that. Earlier this season, we were fine at defending set pieces, so again we know we're capable. The players need a little confidence boost, some decisions to go their way, getting the run of the ball in a game etc.
I still think the signings so far are good too. People slagging Schindler off for example last night, he was excellent at the start of the season. He, like the team, is just having a dip in form. Stankovic was at fault for the first last night, but his performance had enough upside for me to stick with him and see how he does rather than brand him as a waste of money.
Patience is key here. We need to stick with the team and management, trust them to find solutions. I was gutted last night, I spent three hours on trains, got home at midnight (and i'm sure others did even more too), sat and froze through the 90 minutes when I could have stayed home and watched it on tv. But I know i've got to stick with the team, and keep showing up in faith that they'll get over this blip.
UTT
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Post by Boaty McBoatface on Nov 30, 2016 0:53:07 GMT 1
We were 1st though, then we were 2nd...
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Post by leeco on Nov 30, 2016 1:05:20 GMT 1
Don't talk wet.
6th place at this time of year isn't bad.
Think where us and u lot were last season.
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Post by leeco on Nov 30, 2016 1:07:57 GMT 1
At the start of the season and I said would you take 6th in December you would of snapped my hand off.
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Post by ShortbreadPete on Nov 30, 2016 1:34:05 GMT 1
I can't help but think our fast start has somewhat warped all expectations a bit. At the beginning of the season, I was looking forward to seeing good football, and a season pushing the top half. Despite the recent results the general football is still pretty good, and we're sixth. This means we're meeting my expectations so far, so i'm happy enough. Performances have dipped a bit, but to me it is still clear what Wagner wants from us in terms of playing style, and it will take time, maybe quite a long time, to get right properly. Remember he has had to transform this club. Before he came in everything about the club was at a low. Performances were dour, the fans seemed to lack energy. So to turn us into what we are now is impressive, but perfecting his style will take time. There are some obvious issues, the lack of goals, set pieces. But these are all solvable. I trust Wagner to find a solution. Last season we scored plenty of goals under Wagner, so we know this system can produce that. Earlier this season, we were fine at defending set pieces, so again we know we're capable. The players need a little confidence boost, some decisions to go their way, getting the run of the ball in a game etc. I still think the signings so far are good too. People slagging Schindler off for example last night, he was excellent at the start of the season. He, like the team, is just having a dip in form. Stankovic was at fault for the first last night, but his performance had enough upside for me to stick with him and see how he does rather than brand him as a waste of money. Patience is key here. We need to stick with the team and management, trust them to find solutions. I was gutted last night, I spent three hours on trains, got home at midnight (and i'm sure others did even more too), sat and froze through the 90 minutes when I could have stayed home and watched it on tv. But I know i've got to stick with the team, and keep showing up in faith that they'll get over this blip. UTT Great post!
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Post by ldotm on Nov 30, 2016 3:16:02 GMT 1
I can't help but think our fast start has somewhat warped all expectations a bit. At the beginning of the season, I was looking forward to seeing good football, and a season pushing the top half. Despite the recent results the general football is still pretty good, and we're sixth. This means we're meeting my expectations so far, so i'm happy enough. Performances have dipped a bit, but to me it is still clear what Wagner wants from us in terms of playing style, and it will take time, maybe quite a long time, to get right properly. Remember he has had to transform this club. Before he came in everything about the club was at a low. Performances were dour, the fans seemed to lack energy. So to turn us into what we are now is impressive, but perfecting his style will take time. There are some obvious issues, the lack of goals, set pieces. But these are all solvable. I trust Wagner to find a solution. Last season we scored plenty of goals under Wagner, so we know this system can produce that. Earlier this season, we were fine at defending set pieces, so again we know we're capable. The players need a little confidence boost, some decisions to go their way, getting the run of the ball in a game etc. I still think the signings so far are good too. People slagging Schindler off for example last night, he was excellent at the start of the season. He, like the team, is just having a dip in form. Stankovic was at fault for the first last night, but his performance had enough upside for me to stick with him and see how he does rather than brand him as a waste of money. Patience is key here. We need to stick with the team and management, trust them to find solutions. I was gutted last night, I spent three hours on trains, got home at midnight (and i'm sure others did even more too), sat and froze through the 90 minutes when I could have stayed home and watched it on tv. But I know i've got to stick with the team, and keep showing up in faith that they'll get over this blip. UTT Well put. Because of the unthinkable start it has altered people's expectations, we have to remember who we are and where we've come from, this time last year we were 21st, we also have the 3rd/4th lowest revenue income in the league and we are still 6th. Of course the form is worrying but this is a very weird league and a few wins and the confidence booming who knows what can happen. Norwich have worse form than us at the moment but you can guarantee they'll start picking it up again. For me, I'm still loving being a town fan, the atmosphere is much better, the football in general is more pleasant to the eye and we have a manager who will continue to learn and transform this club, with an absolute diamond of a chairman who will put his life and soul into this club, this is just the start and within a few more years of gradually building the squad, style and atmosphere who knows where we could be. Rome wasn't built in a day! On to Blackburn to get behind the lads UTT
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Post by morleyterrier on Nov 30, 2016 3:59:09 GMT 1
No.
We have the 4th lowest budget in the division thus a top-half finish would be an achievement.
Look at the big fish we are swimming amongst, realistically, how the hell do we expect to finish top of the pile, or even in the play-offs?. I do though believe with a bit of 'tweaking', we are not far away and still have the capability to surprise at this level.
Yes we have some ongoing frustrating issues with our play that are known to Wagner and are known to us the fans (and are well documented on here), however!, for me this to date has to be considered a memorable season so far. We have:
Topped the table and been points clear Seen regular circa 20k home attendances (with some great atmospheres) Beaten Mega-Bucks Newcastle away in front of 50k+ Drawn away at Aston Villa Beaten Leeds United away Beaten Derby County (with their multi, multi-million pound assembled Team)
We have also played some great football along the way.
I ain't enjoying this run any more than anybody else is, however, to suggest the season is over and we are not even out of November is ludicrous. Plenty to play for and anyway, what does 'season over' mean?. If we can't win the league then let's not bother?.
Try telling any fan on leaving the ground that the season is over when for example that 92nd minute winner goes in against Aston Villa at home or even beating a Burton at home for example 3 - 0.
Plenty points to play for and plenty to look forward to.
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Post by keithAM11532 on Nov 30, 2016 3:59:45 GMT 1
I would still like to remind people that Norwich, who apparently were nailed on second, are now 8th. A slump can happen to anybody, our neighbors Barnsley, who were second when we were top are now 18th...FFS. Wolves, with the interstellar million dollar squad 21st. Lets take some perspective from all of that and stop crying in our beer.
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Post by richyhtfc on Nov 30, 2016 7:21:47 GMT 1
It is if we dont find a big striker in jan.
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Post by shawsie on Nov 30, 2016 7:23:42 GMT 1
Oti.....that post is like a hormonal teenager full of angst and a sense of entitlement. Man up fella.....we are having a bad run. It happens to bigger and better than us mate. Now is the time to stay strong and back the staff to sort it.........you don't win the games we did as a fluke, but similarly the recent defeats have shown the fine lines at this level. When we get back to defending properly we will be fine...............but players who some thought were stars (e.g. Schindler) don't become buffoons on the back of the odd poor night. At least it's not dull!!!
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Post by Headless Chicken on Nov 30, 2016 7:58:24 GMT 1
Wigan were about as bad a team as I've seen in a long time...and yet we lost to them at home. And you can say what you like about the referee (a total disgrace would be putting it mildly) but we're a complete shambles at the moment, there's no getting away from that. The one positive is that if we can turn it around we've got points in the bag already. The worrying thing is that we're still at least 3 players short of a half-decent team and I can't see much happening to change this in January. Do you think the other teams around us have no gaps in their team/squad? Of course they do- which is why we don't need as close to a perfect team as many seem expect and why players don't come cheap, as demand outstrips supply. You could watch just about any team for a number of games and identify such gaps. We're better than a half-decent team, just have a couple of major flaws (at least one of which does require a signing) and a dip in form across a number of players at the same time. Wagner and his staff need to work hard on defensive issues in particular and boxing off at least one striker in January. We as fans need to continue to be patient with the performances and playing style. If we don't and any of our players aren't strong willed, we'll see them hiding or hoofing (Smith seems a bit like this, which is why I find him an odd choice for captain, whereas Hogg just brushes it off). The vast majority of the crowd do seem to be sticking by them, but I suspect the groans will increase exponentially if we don't turn the corner soon and we enter a viscous circle.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Nov 30, 2016 8:17:14 GMT 1
Is the writing on the wall....have we all seen enough to know that a goal a game is nowhere near good enough? That a porous, slow defence means we need at least two goals a match? As the table takes shape is it clear we are destined for the odd win and mid table obscurity? Forget the Cup, we have gone out feebly since the 1930's. Still November, what have we to look forward to? That's depression.com even by my standards.
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Morning Norwood
Tom Cowan Terrier
Always look on the bright side of life
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Post by Morning Norwood on Nov 30, 2016 8:52:48 GMT 1
Folk talking about wanting a big striker in jan, think this will solve all our problems is quite amusing.
Wagner said on the radio t'other night a big striker doesn't fit in to our identity now We play possession high up the pitch. where is the big striker likely to be holding the ball up if we are already passing it around the box? Our crossing rarely beats the first defender. Good luck Mr Big Striker nodding them in.
Town won't be signing a striker unless Wells goes, but then this will be dependent on value for money. Dean Hoyle always insists January is a bad month for transfers. Maybe Stuart Webber and his team have already spotted a few potential signings, but the wells money will need to be brought in to get them.
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Post by teddytheterrier on Nov 30, 2016 8:53:01 GMT 1
What a stupid post.
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Post by jonnyboy on Nov 30, 2016 9:02:48 GMT 1
Most teams have a bad spell a dip at some point in the season often two or three. We have new players new to the division and some rivals with near beserk budgets. We need to get off their backs and let them sort it out. The trouble with football is everyone is an expert. The people behind me with their constant undermining sarcastic bitching every time we go sideways or backwards to retain possession need to grow up a bit because we need a style that will sustain us at this level for years to come and anyone that's done any Reasonable level competitive sport will know that just going toe to toe in a bring it style is the quickest way to get beaten by a quality opponent. Keep the faith and we will come good again. But it might take a little while longer. Just being in with a shout of nicking a playoff place would be an excellent result for this season.
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Post by jonnyboy on Nov 30, 2016 9:05:06 GMT 1
Most teams have a bad spell a dip at some point in the season often two or three. We have new players new to the division and some rivals with near beserk budgets. We need to get off their backs and let them sort it out. The trouble with football is everyone is an expert. The people behind me with their constant undermining sarcastic bitching every time we go sideways or backwards to retain possession need to grow up a bit because we need a style that will sustain us at this level for years to come. Anyone that's done any reasonsble level competitive sport will perhaps recognise that just going toe to toe in a 'bring it' style is the quickest way to get beaten by a quality opponent. Keep the faith and we will come good again. But it might take a little while longer. Just being in with a shout of nicking a playoff place would be an excellent result for this season.
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Post by Sarcastic Terrier on Nov 30, 2016 9:18:26 GMT 1
A couple more defeats like we've been having in this run could see us drop like a stone in no time. It'll only take 2 defeats and the chasing pack to win to see us in 14th place.
Many folk might say it'll take more than 2 games to fall that far but we are loosing to the bottom teams, so they are closing the gap.
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Post by dugnet on Nov 30, 2016 9:36:32 GMT 1
Oti - ever worried you are getting ever more predictable?
In answer to your question though....the season isn't over for a myriad of reasons I won't bother to list here.
What will be will be - debating from a negative perspective is utterly futile but, on here, inevitable. I have neither the energy or inclination to enter in such debates at any length but would not the following as a fact;
Despite our current poor run of results and frustrating performances one thing is absolutely unequivocal - we have made significant progress under DW (prior to his appointment the general thread of debate on here was about progress since promotion to the Championship), although I don't like losing games there are still positives and it has always been stated that we are looking at a long term programme of improvement not a "one shot of glory". The point you made a few weeks back about the impact of funding on success was well made and largely undeniable. It is also true we have deficiencies in our squad and performance (in order to achieve a promotion) but there are still many positives.
That said this forum naturally attracts the extremes of opinion and always will. There is little room for those who can see the bigger picture, thus was it ever.
There are two truths at the moment -
1 - We need a win, in any way it comes
2 - And our chances of having a cup run are minimal - I am a realist and after nearly 40 years watching I accept we don't seem suited to cup football.
UTT
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Post by lex on Nov 30, 2016 9:59:57 GMT 1
Is the writing on the wall....have we all seen enough to know that a goal a game is nowhere near good enough? That a porous, slow defence means we need at least two goals a match? As the table takes shape is it clear we are destined for the odd win and mid table obscurity? Forget the Cup, we have gone out feebly since the 1930's. Still November, what have we to look forward to? Get a grip Oti, even for you this is an OTT. We are sixth in the Championship. Yes we are on a bad run, yes there are problems with the team that need changing however the downturn in form can change very quickly just look at the lot down the road and what has happened there. We are currently watching the best Town side I can remember considering the level we are playing at and in front of the biggest crowds for a generation. We have a committed chairman and a forward thinking manager. We can all look back with rose tinted specs at the Buxton Era but remember that was in the 4th division which is a country mile away from where we are now. The key to Town is tempo if we can try and inject this back into our play results will start to come. We do need to physically stronger and a bigger presence up front is required. If Nahki wants out we should sell him on Jan 1st and get somebody in who wants to play for OUR GREAT CLUB a situation I am sure the club has been looking at for months. I think we need to keep a degree of perspective in our comments and it is a sad situation when a ******* Leeds fan has to come on here and talk a bit of sense about our situation. Town fans can moan and groan with the best of them however we must support the club in these tough patches. Yes we must question things when required and not just follow in blind faith but support none the less. No team is perfect. I chose to stand in line behind Wagner and Hoyle ready to go over to top again who is with me boys? By the way Oti is this post was designed to get a reaction consider this a bite.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 10:31:54 GMT 1
does anybody remember that thing the players used to do after a game,i think it involved holding hands and raising them to the crowd,,,who responded by going yaaaa,yaaaa,yaaaa,yaaas,yaaaaaaa,,,oh to be Aaah,,,,,I used to enjoy that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 10:36:55 GMT 1
A big thing nobody has mentioned (it's the same for all clubs) and that is the fact that there is no longer a loan market to utilise. In the past clubs would have used it in these cases to give themselves a boost / freshen things up in areas that are weaker. Chilwell last season, Holt the year before. With the relationship between Klopp and Wagner I'm willing to bet that there may have been at least one come in from Liverpool and other clubs as Webber seems to be well connected.
Although we signed players in the summer to compensate for this, loss of form can't always be factored in. Especially when it happens down the spine of the team - Schindler, Mooy and to an extent Wells. Also Kachunga. Mooy has started come back into it more. Hogg also looks off form to me. He's back to charging around like the proverbial bull in a china shop and a booking waiting to happen. This is the argument for squad depth I suppose but that is evolutionary and gradual. The steps we have taken this season have been massive but when set-backs happen these seem way more significant than the actually are. We do, however, need to pick a consistent defence / team and stick to it to allow them to develop.
Another thing not really related but I was initially annoyed with the media response from Wagner and Lowe on Monday night as I expected more anger but now I've actually calmed down it was dealt with pretty well. If everyone had come all guns blazing and full of anger you'd have to add that to things to deal with and get past. Getting out of there and things done before coming back to it can make things more rational to deal with. also, despite how bad it seemed at the time we could have had a point on another night. Whether we'd have deserved it is another question entirely!
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Post by Manx Terrier on Nov 30, 2016 10:38:59 GMT 1
I guess your career as an inspirational speaker never really took off then oti? Theres 2 options really. We can our white flags, wallow in a bit of self pity and basically . Or we can grow a pair, look forward to the next game and support the team in the hope we get back on the horse after a pretty lousy run and challenge for a top 6 spot come may. I get the impression you've already made your mind up which course of action you think is best? To be honest if you think we need inspirational speeches it's a bit depressing! Words of hope,faith and trust may well cause many to nod wisely and coo in pleasure but are the worst possible ways of predicting the future. Images of Blackadder and whiskered Generals preparing troops for slaughter are conjured up. UTT
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Post by jqhtfc on Nov 30, 2016 10:42:33 GMT 1
Folk talking about wanting a big striker in jan, think this will solve all our problems is quite amusing. Wagner said on the radio t'other night a big striker doesn't fit in to our identity now We play possession high up the pitch. where is the big striker likely to be holding the ball up if we are already passing it around the box? Our crossing rarely beats the first defender. Good luck Mr Big Striker nodding them in. Town won't be signing a striker unless Wells goes, but then this will be dependent on value for money. Dean Hoyle always insists January is a bad month for transfers. Maybe Stuart Webber and his team have already spotted a few potential signings, but the wells money will need to be brought in to get them. Town will be signing a striker if wells goes or not. As for big striker it's not a target man Wagner wants who's only job is holding the ball and heading he wants somebody with a bit of presence who's also mobile enough to suit the system think kodja that sort.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 10:46:56 GMT 1
Is the season over? Nope.
Everything to play for still. Long way to go. It's a marathon not a snickers.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Nov 30, 2016 10:52:01 GMT 1
I guess your career as an inspirational speaker never really took off then oti? Theres 2 options really. We can our white flags, wallow in a bit of self pity and basically . Or we can grow a pair, look forward to the next game and support the team in the hope we get back on the horse after a pretty lousy run and challenge for a top 6 spot come may. I get the impression you've already made your mind up which course of action you think is best? I was playing Devils Slapps...i fly in tomorrow for the Blackburn game...reckon thats pretty positive.
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