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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Oct 15, 2014 21:22:05 GMT 1
I think that the problem with this case is it's not cut and dried. Did he act like a scumbag? Yes, without a doubt. Are there grounds to question the conviction? It's certainly a matter of opinion but the fact that there has been such lengthy debate on here and in the media suggests that there is some degree of doubt, and that for me makes it hard to make a statement that this guy should not be able to earn a living playing a game.
If it was a stonewall case then I would have no hesitation. I am a father to a 7 year old girl, and I am definitely concerted that in 1o years time (less in fact) my daughter will be out in the big bad world.
But there are two scenarios here - scenario 1 is that Ched Evans did do what he was convicted of. If that is the case (and I'm far from convinced) then no - he should not be permitted to play football again, purely because in my opinion his sentence should have put him away so long it would have been impossible. But in the real world, as others have said, Luke McCormick is back playing professionally again, as is Lee Hughes. Clearly different crimes, but arguably with far more devastating consequences.
Scenario 2 is that the victim was not in fact raped, was a willing participant and then later either had a fit of shame, saw £ signs or a combination of the two and he's been wrongly convicted. If this is the case, he's still behaved badly but in recent years no worse than several international footballers. This should not have any long term impact of his career.
As for the question of whether she acted foolishly - clearly if she was raped then that's not her fault. However, in the real world we lock our doors, hide our valuables and avoid dodgy areas to reduce the risk of becoming victims of crime, and this is no different. Don't let yourself get so drunk that you're incapable of consenting, don't go to a hotel with a stranger and so on. Again, just so no-one misunderstands me, no one should have to do this - but being realistic, why take the risk? I teach my kids about stranger danger and the green cross code - it's sensible to reduce the risk.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 21:33:31 GMT 1
I'm not denying he's a bad role model, but his job is just to play football, it's not his fault if people decide to idolise him. A fact lost amongst the pious. A point I made earlier which was lost amongst the pomposity of some of the holier-than-thou posts in here, not sweeping this under the carpet with a ban and exposing him to the intense ill feeling will make folk and football players alike think on about getting themselves into situations like he has. The FACT is footballers are idolised by youngsters growing up. We can all wish they weren't/bemoan/deny the fact they are but they ARE hence my strong views about managing who should and should not retain the right to work in the field. Is ched Evans really going to care what names he's called when he's earning £000's k p.a. to play football. He doesn't think he did anything wrong. For footballers, crowd abuse goes with the territory- occupational hazard. An outright ban on footballers convicted of certain offences returning to the profession would have that effect you talk of though. A bit of crowd abuse won't imo. If trying to set better standards and give stronger messages and moral values to our children is pompous them I'm guilty as charged.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Oct 15, 2014 21:42:35 GMT 1
Grimois I've never been anally raped in my life.. I've been paraletically drunk on many occasions . Maybe I should count myself lucky eh ?
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 15, 2014 21:46:30 GMT 1
People seem to think he's done his time, he HAS NOT, he has done 2,5 years of a 5 year sentence............. Yeah, you're right, when he got early release for good behaviour he should have insisted on serving the rest of his sentence..........
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Post by Derby Blue on Oct 15, 2014 21:47:57 GMT 1
A fact lost amongst the pious. A point I made earlier which was lost amongst the pomposity of some of the holier-than-thou posts in here, not sweeping this under the carpet with a ban and exposing him to the intense ill feeling will make folk and football players alike think on about getting themselves into situations like he has. The FACT is footballers are idolised by youngsters growing up. We can all wish they weren't/bemoan/deny the fact they are but they ARE hence my strong views about managing who should and should not retain the right to work in the field. Is ched Evans really going to care what names he's called when he's earning £000's k p.a. to play football. He doesn't think he did anything wrong. For footballers, crowd abuse goes with the territory- occupational hazard. An outright ban on footballers convicted of certain offences returning to the profession would have that effect you talk of though. A bit of crowd abuse won't imo. If trying to set better standards and give stronger messages and moral values to our children is pompous them I'm guilty as charged. You mention people idolise him, yet that's not his fault. Should we be looking to punish him further than what the court has decided, by banning him, because of the actions of others (in idolising him)?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 22:19:17 GMT 1
Not his fault but just the way it is. Like MPs, footballers should be whiter than white or risk losing their privileged position.
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 15, 2014 22:25:47 GMT 1
Not his fault but just the way it is. Like MPs, footballers should be whiter than white or risk losing their privileged position. MP's are making decisions for the good of the future of the country, if they can't manage their private lives it would indicate maybe their professional lives which involve clear thinking and decision making may also be affected. Footballers kick a bag of air around a pitch. John Terry has allegedly slung his weapon wherever he fancies which hardly sets a good example, yet he was England captain, hardly a role model for your kids. Ashley Cole sent pics of his weapon to random women and threw up on one of them during sex, hardly a good example, yet he is one of Englands greatest ever left backs, to liken footballers to MP's is ridiculous and exactly the point the original poster was trying to make. These are young men who are going to make mistakes, not some God like figures.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 22:43:05 GMT 1
Not his fault but just the way it is. Like MPs, footballers should be whiter than white or risk losing their privileged position. MP's are making decisions for the good of the future of the country, if they can't manage their private lives it would indicate maybe their professional lives which involve clear thinking and decision making may also be affected. Footballers kick a bag of air around a pitch. John Terry has allegedly slung his weapon wherever he fancies which hardly sets a good example, yet he was England captain, hardly a role model for your kids. Ashley Cole sent pics of his weapon to random women and threw up on one of them during sex, hardly a good example, yet he is one of Englands greatest ever left backs, to liken footballers to MP's is ridiculous and exactly the point the original poster was trying to make. These are young men who are going to make mistakes, not some God like figures. They are looked up too though sadly & there are numerous individuals who have set a poor examples. I wouldn't call for a life ban for Terry or cole though some sanctions I would have backed for those fine specimens. I agree with you the football authorities have themselves taken no lead on these issues. This is the basis if my argument. They should be doing far more for the good of the game and it's image. When you work in the public eye, looked up to by young people & very handsomely rewarded for the privilege you have more responsibilities than others. Responsibility to society to set a good example. Where would you draw the line? Would it be ok for a convicted paedophile to resume his football career after he'd served his sentence?
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 15, 2014 22:55:57 GMT 1
MP's are making decisions for the good of the future of the country, if they can't manage their private lives it would indicate maybe their professional lives which involve clear thinking and decision making may also be affected. Footballers kick a bag of air around a pitch. John Terry has allegedly slung his weapon wherever he fancies which hardly sets a good example, yet he was England captain, hardly a role model for your kids. Ashley Cole sent pics of his weapon to random women and threw up on one of them during sex, hardly a good example, yet he is one of Englands greatest ever left backs, to liken footballers to MP's is ridiculous and exactly the point the original poster was trying to make. These are young men who are going to make mistakes, not some God like figures. They are looked up too though sadly & there are numerous individuals who have set a poor examples. I wouldn't call for a life ban for Terry or cole though some sanctions I would have backed for those fine specimens. When you work in the public eye, looked up to by young people & very handsomely rewarded for the privilege you have more responsibilities than others. Responsibility to society to set a good example. Where would you draw the line? Would it be ok for a convicted paedophile to resume his football career after he'd served his sentence? I agree with a lot of what you say Joe, I hate the way society is heading where the likes of Miley Cyrus, Kim Kardashian, and the men and women of TOWIE (i think i vomited just writing that) are the kind of people that are looked up to, I find the thought of these people being viewed as heroes far worse than this current situation. Very few people actually seem to feel responsible to society anymore. ***Editted to remove my response to the paedophile question as I really don't think it is relevant to this thread/topic***
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Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Spunker on Oct 16, 2014 1:39:29 GMT 1
Although cautious of not upsetting anyone because this is an incredibly sensitive subject, and rightly so; I was about to say the same thing. For me, he was hard done by. This girl must have known what she was getting herself into and surely not that naive. Why did she let someone buy her drinks AND go to a hotel with him? No rape drugs were involved as far as it is known and she just got herself steaming. Obviously not a very sensible or responsible human being. The strangest things in this is why he wanted to go to Rhyl on a Bank Holiday and why his Missus defended him; okay question his conviction but he still slept with another girl. Odd. Still, Town got promoted because of this. Just to clarify your thoughts, if you went for a night out with some lads, and accepted their generousity in buying you drinks, and then later you crashed out drunk, would it be okay for them to sodomise you and film the act? And that if any offence had taken place, it was your responsibility, and not the responsibility of the individuals who assualted you? If I was gay and they were gay, probably. If I went out with a group of females and they did that, yeah I'd probably be fine with it. Why else would they have been buying the girls drinks? Let's be honest, who would buy a complete stranger a drink if he didn't fancy her and think he had a chance? I think no one.
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Post by Barbieterrier on Oct 16, 2014 6:59:07 GMT 1
Just to clarify your thoughts, if you went for a night out with some lads, and accepted their generousity in buying you drinks, and then later you crashed out drunk, would it be okay for them to sodomise you and film the act? And that if any offence had taken place, it was your responsibility, and not the responsibility of the individuals who assualted you? If I was gay and they were gay, probably. If I went out with a group of females and they did that, yeah I'd probably be fine with it. Why else would they have been buying the girls drinks? Let's be honest, who would buy a complete stranger a drink if he didn't fancy her and think he had a chance? I think no one. Really? Not one of you guys would buy a girl a drink unless you thought you had a chance? Upon finding out she's incapable or not up for it he behaved despicably. He can't think he's entitled because he's bought her a drink surely? Well if anything this thread is truly an eye opener to the way some guys see girls and what some may be expecting or find acceptable after buying a cheap jaeger or two. The girl got drunk and trusted the wrong people. That's not a crime.
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Post by townatheart on Oct 16, 2014 7:29:15 GMT 1
Just to clarify your thoughts, if you went for a night out with some lads, and accepted their generousity in buying you drinks, and then later you crashed out drunk, would it be okay for them to sodomise you and film the act? And that if any offence had taken place, it was your responsibility, and not the responsibility of the individuals who assualted you? If I was gay and they were gay, probably. If I went out with a group of females and they did that, yeah I'd probably be fine with it. Why else would they have been buying the girls drinks? Let's be honest, who would buy a complete stranger a drink if he didn't fancy her and think he had a chance? I think no one. Right, so again to clarify, your opinion is that it is ok to rape and assult someone if they have accepted a drink from another person? And that is justified because no one buys another person a drink without the full antcipation that they will be free to do what they want with that persons body?
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Post by bro600 on Oct 16, 2014 7:40:47 GMT 1
Has anyone else 'licked out' a girl immediately after a friend had penetrated her whilst being recorded by your own brother and friend? Welsh people eh? That alone deserves a 2.5 year jail sentence. McDonald's ??
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 7:50:46 GMT 1
If I was gay and they were gay, probably. If I went out with a group of females and they did that, yeah I'd probably be fine with it. Why else would they have been buying the girls drinks? Let's be honest, who would buy a complete stranger a drink if he didn't fancy her and think he had a chance? I think no one. Right, so again to clarify, your opinion is that it is ok to rape and assult someone if they have accepted a drink from another person? And that is justified because no one buys another person a drink without the full antcipation that they will be free to do what they want with that persons body? As with Stuart Lubbock?
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 16, 2014 8:03:28 GMT 1
Just to clarify your thoughts, if you went for a night out with some lads, and accepted their generousity in buying you drinks, and then later you crashed out drunk, would it be okay for them to sodomise you and film the act? And that if any offence had taken place, it was your responsibility, and not the responsibility of the individuals who assualted you? If I was gay and they were gay, probably. If I went out with a group of females and they did that, yeah I'd probably be fine with it. Why else would they have been buying the girls drinks?Let's be honest, who would buy a complete stranger a drink if he didn't fancy her and think he had a chance? I think no one. THIS is victim blaming and this is utterly ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!! Get someone leathered and it's ok to rape them? ?? INSANE
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Post by bro600 on Oct 16, 2014 8:40:54 GMT 1
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 16, 2014 8:53:28 GMT 1
Very good piece and I agree with a lot of what is said, especially regarding the silence from Sheff Utd. I find it hard to believe anyone would sing "He f*cks who he wants" in support of Ched Evans, but saying that I'm pretty sure that some Leeds fans sang that in retaliation to chants aimed at them about Jimmy Savile, just goes to show that some football fans really are as thick as pig shit
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Oct 16, 2014 9:13:08 GMT 1
I think that the problem with this case is it's not cut and dried. Did he act like a scumbag? Yes, without a doubt. Are there grounds to question the conviction? It's certainly a matter of opinion but the fact that there has been such lengthy debate on here and in the media suggests that there is some degree of doubt, and that for me makes it hard to make a statement that this guy should not be able to earn a living playing a game. If it was a stonewall case then I would have no hesitation. I am a father to a 7 year old girl, and I am definitely concerted that in 1o years time (less in fact) my daughter will be out in the big bad world. But there are two scenarios here - scenario 1 is that Ched Evans did do what he was convicted of. If that is the case (and I'm far from convinced) then no - he should not be permitted to play football again, purely because in my opinion his sentence should have put him away so long it would have been impossible. But in the real world, as others have said, Luke McCormick is back playing professionally again, as is Lee Hughes. Clearly different crimes, but arguably with far more devastating consequences. Scenario 2 is that the victim was not in fact raped, was a willing participant and then later either had a fit of shame, saw £ signs or a combination of the two and he's been wrongly convicted. If this is the case, he's still behaved badly but in recent years no worse than several international footballers. This should not have any long term impact of his career. As for the question of whether she acted foolishly - clearly if she was raped then that's not her fault. However, in the real world we lock our doors, hide our valuables and avoid dodgy areas to reduce the risk of becoming victims of crime, and this is no different. Don't let yourself get so drunk that you're incapable of consenting, don't go to a hotel with a stranger and so on. Again, just so no-one misunderstands me, no one should have to do this - but being realistic, why take the risk? I teach my kids about stranger danger and the green cross code - it's sensible to reduce the risk. tweets link
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Post by Barbieterrier on Oct 16, 2014 9:13:59 GMT 1
www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/why-football-must-face-up-to-ched-evans-rape-crisis-1-6898008?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeedInteresting read.... For possibly the first time, the FA is preparing to take action to stop supporters chanting songs that demean women. A spokesman said: “If a club’s supporters chant songs that ‘praise’ the offender (Evans) or ridicule and possibly identify the victim, The FA will make swift, and possibly even pre-emptive contact with the club, to discuss in collaboration what measures they can take to prevent this.” They cant stop racism in the stands so how are they going to stop a bunch of guys singing 'he sh*gs who he wants..' I stood at Wembley play off final vs Sheffield with guys all around me singing 'she said no my friend, she said no!' the lass who was with me doesnt do many matches and was absolutely gutted that rape was a subject for a football chant. For me i think i am used to the sexism in football and this is just another example of it - imo. Buying girls a drink shouldnt make guys believe they are entitled to something else in return and i am surprised if this is the case guys - i wouldnt ever consider questioning the motives of guys match day at htafc buying me a drink.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 9:36:38 GMT 1
Spokesman Katie Russell said: “If I’m asked about what football should be doing on this issue, I say it’s for the FA, clubs and others to tell us what football is doing to combat sexual violence, abuse of women and misogyny. Football is in an influential position to raise awareness among young men in particular about consent and attitudes towards women and girls. Rape Crisis fully accepts that convicted criminals are entitled to resume their life after leaving prison, but when it’s into a high profile public arena it’s equally important that the clear message is sent out that sexual violence and violence against women are completely unacceptable. Since the conviction, Sheffield United has said very little.” It would be difficult to envisage another profession or another arm of what might loosely be called the entertainment industry making a similar decision. In most cases, a rape conviction would terminate a career. Points I have made on this thread already.
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Post by Barbieterrier on Oct 16, 2014 9:38:21 GMT 1
Spokesman Katie Russell said: “If I’m asked about what football should be doing on this issue, I say it’s for the FA, clubs and others to tell us what football is doing to combat sexual violence, abuse of women and misogyny. Football is in an influential position to raise awareness among young men in particular about consent and attitudes towards women and girls. Rape Crisis fully accepts that convicted criminals are entitled to resume their life after leaving prison, but when it’s into a high profile public arena it’s equally important that the clear message is sent out that sexual violence and violence against women are completely unacceptable. Since the conviction, Sheffield United has said very little.” It would be difficult to envisage another profession or another arm of what might loosely be called the entertainment industry making a similar decision. In most cases, a rape conviction would terminate a career. Points I have made on this thread already. I agree completely
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 10:03:50 GMT 1
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Post by Barbieterrier on Oct 16, 2014 10:10:18 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 10:15:09 GMT 1
Me neither go to BBC website.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 10:19:43 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 10:40:49 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 10:41:45 GMT 1
Ta just realised what I had done wrong
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Post by Barbieterrier on Oct 16, 2014 10:46:59 GMT 1
When i mentioned CE showing remorse in earlier posts i got heavily criticized for it . Not too sure on the whole what fan reaction would be - quite a few Blades seem to want him back. Going back to Wembley play off i remember a group of lads coming up to me and asking 'would i like to be raped' my friend went mental at them whilst i just gave them the answer they wanted - no. To which they sang 'she said no my friend...' given the attitude of these lads and some of the other comments on this forum I would probably say some fans wouldnt give it a second thought to have a convicted rapist on the pitch, but to me it fills me with absolute disgust. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29629832
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 16, 2014 10:52:43 GMT 1
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Post by lankystreak on Oct 16, 2014 10:59:02 GMT 1
Having read the above Daily Mail piece it just leaves me with more questions with regards to both verdicts in this case, by the sounds of it when Clayton McDonald came across the woman she was falling over, and acting severely drunk, at this point he was seperate from Ched Evans so Evans has seen none of this behaviour. McDonald then takes her back and has sex with her. Evans then appears at the hotel with no knowledge of her previous drunken behaviour and walks in on her having sex with McDonald, this is the only action he see's her making upon which he has supposedly to judge whether she is sober enough to give meaningful consent. By the basis that Evans was convicted on her being too drunk to give consent I really and truly cannot understand how the jury could find McDonald not guilty, given that it is purely based on the accused knowing that she was absolutely leathered. A very very strange case.
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