NSL Scouting Trip

[benmsmith4]

Thought I'd just share my thoughts on my trip to watch Union Berlin vs Karlsruher, and what I think the NSL can learn.
The experience of being at a football match in Germany was immense. It was everything I'd heard it'd be: cheap, boozy (drinking on the terrace), raucous and colorful. Union won 2-0 on the day, but I'm sure their fans would have sang continuously regardless of the result.
It was largely a scouting trip for me to see the fan culture we should be replicating at Town and across England.
Just got a few comments regarding the NSL:
1) There were 3000 Karlsruher fans in the away end and some 6000 in the home end. We couldn't hear them at other side of the pitch and they probs couldn't hear us, but nonetheless both fans were vociferous. The point I want to make is that it doesn't matter if those in the DG or away end can't hear us, it's about our own enjoyment and fun.
2) Drums and capos are a must, capos actually shouted through megaphones that were linked up to loud speakers in the stand so fans could be choreographed etc. (could this be possible?). Drummers and capos were perfectly synchronised and the fans hung on their every word/beat. Maybe we should introduce some songs that involve a bit of choreographing (bouncing, claps, waving, fuck knows). It seemed to get everyone going on what was a freezing Berlin night.
3) Keep up the good work. We have an atmosphere now where singing/being passionate is considered eccentric and sitting/shutting up is the norm. We need to strive towards the opposite and slowly I think we can do that.

Cheers

[Ginger Ogre]

Been to watch Union Berlin myself and it was brilliant.

I went while the new stadium was being built so I've not been to the new ground, seen pictures though and it looks amazing.

[benmsmith4]

Dec 21, 2014 19:35:21 GMT 1 Ginger Ogre said:

Been to watch Union Berlin myself and it was brilliant.

I went while the new stadium was being built so I've not been to the new ground, seen pictures though and it looks amazing.

Stadium is awesome, and part-financed/built by the fans which is cool.
Funnily enough three quarters of it is standing terrace with one big seated area, which bar a few hundred is completely empty. Nobody wants to sit down, it's almost as if its frowned upon to sit (unless you're a family/disabled of course).

[RossoneriTerrier]

Good to hear about such scouting reports! Im a huge admirer of German football in general, but particularly the 2. Bundesliga where under the circumstances (much less funding for choreography compared to established Bundesliga clubs) the supporters do such a fantastic job of creating an atmosphere.

There are lots of examples of this but you just have to look at the likes of St. Pauli and Union Berlin for a spectacle and fighting against modern football's darker side (ticket prices, too much commercial involvement) and for that I commend them. Then theres the likes of Fortuna Dusseldorf, playing in front of 30,000 in a 50k stadium, still generating a fantastic atmosphere.

There is a lot to learn for English clubs, but when you consider the majority of these German 'Ultras' groups have been around for over a decade, it becomes apparent that perhaps patience is needed as well.

[RossoneriTerrier]

Just as a side note, I've only been to Cologne (or Köln) myself which is a beautiful city that I wouldn't mind going back to.

There are a few places I'd love to visit and grounds I'd like to see, including the likes of Dusseldorf (theres a direct flight from Leeds Bradford Airport) but I particularly want to go see Greuther Furth.

[benmsmith4]

Dec 22, 2014 21:04:22 GMT 1 RossoneriTerrier said:

Good to hear about such scouting reports! Im a huge admirer of German football in general, but particularly the 2. Bundesliga where under the circumstances (much less funding for choreography compared to established Bundesliga clubs) the supporters do such a fantastic job of creating an atmosphere.

There are lots of examples of this but you just have to look at the likes of St. Pauli and Union Berlin for a spectacle and fighting against modern football's darker side (ticket prices, too much commercial involvement) and for that I commend them. Then theres the likes of Fortuna Dusseldorf, playing in front of 30,000 in a 50k stadium, still generating a fantastic atmosphere.

There is a lot to learn for English clubs, but when you consider the majority of these German 'Ultras' groups have been around for over a decade, it becomes apparent that perhaps patience is needed as well.

Yeah I was mightily impressed by Union as, like you say, it is the fans that organise the choreography as opposed to the club. 
Main thing I took away from it is that, like many on other threads have said, the culture is completely different. The community and the clubs are connected on a far greater level than the odd school visit by a player like we have over here (although that is still commendable).
The dream is go to watch St. Pauli given that I'm a bit of a lefty, gonna have to save up the pennies for another trip though!

[Deleted]

The pro-fan movement is getting bigger in this country, fans are fighting back. In Europe they have a lot more power and sway at their respected clubs. The more clubs in this country that start up home ends and fan groups the better.
Sio went to Dortmund last week to a gay pride event and took the chance to go watch Dortmund whilst he was there and said it was brilliant.

[benmsmith4]

Dec 23, 2014 12:38:05 GMT 1 ben1987 said:

The pro-fan movement is getting bigger in this country, fans are fighting back. In Europe they have a lot more power and sway at their respected clubs. The more clubs in this country that start up home ends and fan groups the better.
Sio went to Dortmund last week to a gay pride event and took the chance to go watch Dortmund whilst he was there and said it was brilliant.

Think the first big victory we're gonna see is safe standing rail seats being introduced, hence why I think it's better we stay in the North Stand as it'll be easier to introduce there.
How was is Sio? Were you in the 'Yellow Wall'?

[Sio]

Dec 23, 2014 12:59:38 GMT 1 benmsmith4 said:

Dec 23, 2014 12:38:05 GMT 1 ben1987 said:

The pro-fan movement is getting bigger in this country, fans are fighting back. In Europe they have a lot more power and sway at their respected clubs. The more clubs in this country that start up home ends and fan groups the better.
Sio went to Dortmund last week to a gay pride event and took the chance to go watch Dortmund whilst he was there and said it was brilliant.

Think the first big victory we're gonna see is safe standing rail seats being introduced, hence why I think it's better we stay in the North Stand as it'll be easier to introduce there.
How was is Sio? Were you in the 'Yellow Wall'?

Absolutely quality mate- very similar to how you describe it. 

80,000 always helps the atmosphere, but there were so many times when the whole ground stood up and started singing. The yellow wall were obviously stood the whole game, but there was plenty of standing and singing in the opposite end (where we were)- it certainly wasn't just the wall making the noise. Drinking in the stands helps too, and I found it fascinating how everyone was walking around outside the ground with a bottle of beer, with people selling them all over the place. On top of that, almost everyone, no exaggeration, was wearing some kind of Dortmund /hat etc. You get such a massive sense of which club you're visiting, and I was thinking on Saturday how different it is for us- so nondescript. 

I noticed the loudspeaker thing too, and it definitely helped sync their fans up in singing. They also had a drum going almost constantly, so the claims that drums are tinpot seem a little daft considering this.. 

They also did this awesome thing after the goals where the fans shout out the players name after the guy over the tannoy introduces him. This is the exact goal actually- whole ground joins in. Again, much easier with 80k fans..

 

[Sio]

They also did this at the end of the game- pretty much a lap of honour following a 2-2 draw. I believe they do this all the time. Imagine if our players showed the same togetherness and appreciation for the fans at the end of the games- might just make a few connect with the team more. 

[benmsmith4]

Dec 23, 2014 13:10:05 GMT 1 Sio said:

Dec 23, 2014 12:59:38 GMT 1 benmsmith4 said:

Think the first big victory we're gonna see is safe standing rail seats being introduced, hence why I think it's better we stay in the North Stand as it'll be easier to introduce there.
How was is Sio? Were you in the 'Yellow Wall'?

Absolutely quality mate- very similar to how you describe it. 

80,000 always helps the atmosphere, but there were so many times when the whole ground stood up and started singing. The yellow wall were obviously stood the whole game, but there was plenty of standing and singing in the opposite end (where we were)- it certainly wasn't just the wall making the noise. Drinking in the stands helps too, and I found it fascinating how everyone was walking around outside the ground with a bottle of beer, with people selling them all over the place. On top of that, almost everyone, no exaggeration, was wearing some kind of Dortmund /hat etc. You get such a massive sense of which club you're visiting, and I was thinking on Saturday how different it is for us- so nondescript. 

I noticed the loudspeaker thing too, and it definitely helped sync their fans up in singing. They also had a drum going almost constantly, so the claims that drums are tinpot seem a little daft considering this.. 

They also did this awesome thing after the goals where the fans shout out the players name after the guy over the tannoy introduces him. This is the exact goal actually- whole ground joins in. Again, much easier with 80k fans..

 

Yeah I got a pint outside the ground and as I was walking up the steps I started trying to down it in case stewards took it off me, and I then realised my error!
Like I said in the OP I think mic'd up capos and drums are a winning formula for the NSL, definitely something we should be looking to implement. Trouble is, if the likes of Scoffa or someone else tried standing on a seat facing everyone trying to get them going it's likely the stewards would hassle them!
Videos are mint. I was at the ground in Berlin a good hour before the game and half an hour after because throughout there was singing and fan/player interaction.

[RossoneriTerrier]

Dec 23, 2014 12:12:36 GMT 1 benmsmith4 said:

Dec 22, 2014 21:04:22 GMT 1 RossoneriTerrier said:

Good to hear about such scouting reports! Im a huge admirer of German football in general, but particularly the 2. Bundesliga where under the circumstances (much less funding for choreography compared to established Bundesliga clubs) the supporters do such a fantastic job of creating an atmosphere.

There are lots of examples of this but you just have to look at the likes of St. Pauli and Union Berlin for a spectacle and fighting against modern football's darker side (ticket prices, too much commercial involvement) and for that I commend them. Then theres the likes of Fortuna Dusseldorf, playing in front of 30,000 in a 50k stadium, still generating a fantastic atmosphere.

There is a lot to learn for English clubs, but when you consider the majority of these German 'Ultras' groups have been around for over a decade, it becomes apparent that perhaps patience is needed as well.

Yeah I was mightily impressed by Union as, like you say, it is the fans that organise the choreography as opposed to the club. 
Main thing I took away from it is that, like many on other threads have said, the culture is completely different. The community and the clubs are connected on a far greater level than the odd school visit by a player like we have over here (although that is still commendable).
The dream is go to watch St. Pauli given that I'm a bit of a lefty, gonna have to save up the pennies for another trip though!

Thats the thing, its such a mass operation in the sense that everyone is behind it and everyone can see the benefits it generates. Some of the choreo is amazing and the constant chanting, pyrotechnics (which aren't as frowned upon as over here) just make the whole football experience better in my opinion.

Just wish I could get over and witness some in the flesh, but I'd definitely be up for another NSL venture, perhaps to the Millerntor this time?

[RossoneriTerrier]

Dec 23, 2014 13:24:17 GMT 1 benmsmith4 said:

Dec 23, 2014 13:10:05 GMT 1 Sio said:

Absolutely quality mate- very similar to how you describe it. 

80,000 always helps the atmosphere, but there were so many times when the whole ground stood up and started singing. The yellow wall were obviously stood the whole game, but there was plenty of standing and singing in the opposite end (where we were)- it certainly wasn't just the wall making the noise. Drinking in the stands helps too, and I found it fascinating how everyone was walking around outside the ground with a bottle of beer, with people selling them all over the place. On top of that, almost everyone, no exaggeration, was wearing some kind of Dortmund /hat etc. You get such a massive sense of which club you're visiting, and I was thinking on Saturday how different it is for us- so nondescript. 

I noticed the loudspeaker thing too, and it definitely helped sync their fans up in singing. They also had a drum going almost constantly, so the claims that drums are tinpot seem a little daft considering this.. 

They also did this awesome thing after the goals where the fans shout out the players name after the guy over the tannoy introduces him. This is the exact goal actually- whole ground joins in. Again, much easier with 80k fans..

 

Yeah I got a pint outside the ground and as I was walking up the steps I started trying to down it in case stewards took it off me, and I then realised my error!
Like I said in the OP I think mic'd up capos and drums are a winning formula for the NSL, definitely something we should be looking to implement. Trouble is, if the likes of Scoffa or someone else tried standing on a seat facing everyone trying to get them going it's likely the stewards would hassle them!
Videos are mint. I was at the ground in Berlin a good hour before the game and half an hour after because throughout there was singing and fan/player interaction.

I agree regarding the drumming, helps create a background atmosphere and almost a rhythm for everything. All these continental teams renowned for their ultras seem to have a drum. Part of me thinks having someone mic'd up wouldn't really work cos we don't have many call and response chants, plus you have to think that the noise contrast between the call and response would be quite different.

Also agree about how German clubs (among others) seem more connected with their fans, this can only help and give motivation to the supporters trying to make a difference.

I think the NSL will get there, it just needs time, perseverance and passion, the last of which is the most important and its clearly there!

[Deleted]

The NSL is taking note of your views Oli + Ben. They certainly can be achieved in the NSL, it's down to people like yourselves on match days to do it and hope others follow you. The drummer thing is something that needs adressing as does choreography. It takes time and we will get there.

[benmsmith4]

Dec 23, 2014 14:34:47 GMT 1 ben1987 said:

The NSL is taking note of your views Oli + Ben. They certainly can be achieved in the NSL, it's down to people like yourselves on match days to do it and hope others follow you. The drummer thing is something that needs adressing as does choreography. It takes time and we will get there.

Despite all the bullshit you see on other threads the NSL has greatly improved my matchday experience. Just hope the momentum can be kept up in the face of undeserved criticism.

[Deleted]

Dec 23, 2014 16:06:33 GMT 1 benmsmith4 said:

Dec 23, 2014 14:34:47 GMT 1 ben1987 said:

The NSL is taking note of your views Oli + Ben. They certainly can be achieved in the NSL, it's down to people like yourselves on match days to do it and hope others follow you. The drummer thing is something that needs adressing as does choreography. It takes time and we will get there.

Despite all the bullshit you see on other threads the NSL has greatly improved my matchday experience. Just hope the momentum can be kept up in the face of undeserved criticism.

We all just have to be man enough not to take it to heart. If more and more NSL regulars get involved the more it will grow. It's all down to the fans.

[benmsmith4]

Here are some videos. Particular like the -waving chant, something we could replicate (Blue and White Army maybe?)

[Deleted]

This is exactly the path we need to take, The Germans have the blueprint for successful football. Sensible ticket pricing coupled with entertainment on and off the pitch. All we have to do is follow it.

[allthewhile]

Maybe it would be better if there was perhaps two designated capos at the front and the core NSL about 5 rows back to encourage more people to join in. More foreign influence on NSL can only be a good thing. Also think on match days encourage scarfs to be brought by social media and then the capos can use the scarfs to signal what they want done with them. Keep up the good work! UTT

[benmsmith4]

Dec 24, 2014 9:40:20 GMT 1 allthewhile said:

Maybe it would be better if there was perhaps two designated capos at the front and the core NSL about 5 rows back to encourage more people to join in. More foreign influence on NSL can only be a good thing. Also think on match days encourage scarfs to be brought by social media and then the capos can use the scarfs to signal what they want done with them. Keep up the good work! UTT

This

[Cole]

Dec 24, 2014 9:40:20 GMT 1 allthewhile said:

Maybe it would be better if there was perhaps two designated capos at the front and the core NSL about 5 rows back to encourage more people to join in. More foreign influence on NSL can only be a good thing. Also think on match days encourage scarfs to be brought by social media and then the capos can use the scarfs to signal what they want done with them. Keep up the good work! UTT

Yeah this is how I felt from the start. But the NSL is a mix of people in there for a laugh and a sing and then there's people in there who want the ultras style support. I think  that's why it's sometimes hard to get the constant singing. I think to be successful we need more organisation, capos, drums, more of an ultras feel. Then over time more and more people will get into that style of support.  If we could get a core of 50 or so that are up for bouncing, singing and flag waving constantly I think it would be a good start.

[Cole]

This is Beautiful. 

[allthewhile]

Dec 24, 2014 16:08:13 GMT 1 Cole said:

Dec 24, 2014 9:40:20 GMT 1 allthewhile said:

Maybe it would be better if there was perhaps two designated capos at the front and the core NSL about 5 rows back to encourage more people to join in. More foreign influence on NSL can only be a good thing. Also think on match days encourage scarfs to be brought by social media and then the capos can use the scarfs to signal what they want done with them. Keep up the good work! UTT

Yeah this is how I felt from the start. But the NSL is a mix of people in there for a laugh and a sing and then there's people in there who want the ultras style support. I think  that's why it's sometimes hard to get the constant singing. I think to be successful we need more organisation, capos, drums, more of an ultras feel. Then over time more and more people will get into that style of support.  If we could get a core of 50 or so that are up for bouncing, singing and flag waving constantly I think it would be a good start.

One of the most important things for the NSL is to increase the size of the core group at the middle of everything that's when things will start taking off. Only solution I could think is to start a membership of NSL but I wouldn't recommended going down that route because it would take away the "all inclusive" nature of NSL. Any other ideas?

[benmsmith4]

Dec 24, 2014 16:08:13 GMT 1 Cole said:

Dec 24, 2014 9:40:20 GMT 1 allthewhile said:

Maybe it would be better if there was perhaps two designated capos at the front and the core NSL about 5 rows back to encourage more people to join in. More foreign influence on NSL can only be a good thing. Also think on match days encourage scarfs to be brought by social media and then the capos can use the scarfs to signal what they want done with them. Keep up the good work! UTT

Yeah this is how I felt from the start. But the NSL is a mix of people in there for a laugh and a sing and then there's people in there who want the ultras style support. I think  that's why it's sometimes hard to get the constant singing. I think to be successful we need more organisation, capos, drums, more of an ultras feel. Then over time more and more people will get into that style of support.  If we could get a core of 50 or so that are up for bouncing, singing and flag waving constantly I think it would be a good start.

I've always felt we should develop a more 'ultras' style of support, whilst not using that term of course (given we're nowhere near that level).
From what I've noticed kids and families tend to sit on the peripheries of the FML so there'd be nothing wrong with concentrating the 50 or so lads you speak of in the middle block and try the 'German' approach.

[Cole]

Don't see a problem with it, need a couple of capos and a drum down the front. I'm planning on making some big German ultra style flags after christmas.

[benmsmith4]

Dec 24, 2014 17:49:26 GMT 1 Cole said:

Don't see a problem with it, need a couple of capos and a drum down the front. I'm planning on making some big German ultra style flags after christmas.

Problem with flags is everyone puts 'em down after kick off! I might make a blue and white Antifa one, are they easy enough to do?

[Cole]

Dec 24, 2014 18:16:14 GMT 1 benmsmith4 said:

Dec 24, 2014 17:49:26 GMT 1 Cole said:

Don't see a problem with it, need a couple of capos and a drum down the front. I'm planning on making some big German ultra style flags after christmas.

Problem with flags is everyone puts 'em down after kick off! I might make a blue and white Antifa one, are they easy enough to do?

Depends on your level of skill and what style. My mum sew's for a hobby so I have access to a sewing machine, it would be impossible without one. You could make 2 sticks pretty easy though, just get some fabric or an old bedsheet and paint on it, then glue the holes for flagpoles. PM me and I'll try and help.

[RossoneriTerrier]

Look at the above video as a perfect example of what can be achieved.

The supporters in view are Greuther Fürth fans, a team who play in the 2. Bundesliga in front of crowds of 10,000-12,000. There might be 2,000 in that stand on that video, perhaps a bit more (its not a big stand but they certainly cram people in), yet the atmosphere is amazing. A bit of organization and it just goes to show what can happen.

Drums and megaphones appear to be the key (the latter of which I'm not sure how well would work), but just generating prolonged periods of sustained noise is a good start.

I could write an essay on this, but its also important to note that about 20% (probably more) of fans who attend games at Fürth are Ultras and are there to make noise and just generally create a rocking atmosphere. That is far more than we could ever get in the NSL. That seems defeatist but its realistic. Also we may never achieve whats in the video, but it just shows what can be done.

I myself really admire what the NSL is doing and would never criticise what they are doing, I've been in a couple of time but my season ticket is halfway line of the Britannia Rescue and I generally prefer the view. So yeah, just suggestions and food for thought really.

[benmsmith4]

All the talk has been about Germany on this thread but have been looking at some Celtic 'Green Brigade' vids, shows you don't have too look too far afield to find a perfect example of fanatical support. Couple of hundred behind a large banner with a drummer, megaphones and flags is all you need. Here's an ace vid of a 6 year old getting it going, so if he can do it we can!

[Cole]

Dec 27, 2014 16:36:17 GMT 1 benmsmith4 said:

All the talk has been about Germany on this thread but have been looking at some Celtic 'Green Brigade' vids, shows you don't have too look too far afield to find a perfect example of fanatical support. Couple of hundred behind a large banner with a drummer, megaphones and flags is all you need. Here's an ace vid of a 6 year old getting it going, so if he can do it we can!

Love green brigade. Rangers have Ultras too; TBO and Union Bears. Motherwell, livingston, aberdeen and pretty much every other scottish team have a group too.