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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 22:28:46 GMT 1
My weekly shop is around £50 a fortnight and I wouldn't say I was in poverty. Mind you, I don't have Sky Sports, smoke or buy supermarket booze. I make my own wine, so maybe I am in poverty?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 22:34:38 GMT 1
"I'm right and everyone else is wrong".... A typical socialist blinkered opinion.As I said I don't normally get involved with this subject, but Marcus coming from you....Deary me. I mean, have you ever admitted to being wrong? I know I have. It's political debate. Who decides which opinion is right or wrong? In politics we all have differing opinions, they are opinion, not fact. Unfortunately, the left wing socialists tend to ridicule opposition views rather than offering an alternative or debating. Most posts highlighting my name on this thread highlight this socialist tactic perfectly. It's not a new thing really is it?
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Mar 30, 2015 22:37:38 GMT 1
If somebody can afford to buy meat* then I would suggest that they probably don't need to use a food bank. Beans, lentils and chickpeas provide protein at a fraction of the cost, own brand marmite gives vitamin b12. Frankly they taste far better than cheap meat too. *Exception - if they trawl the supermarket just before closing, they might find some meat that's been drastically reduced as it's on its date. Let them eat cake? Maybe we should let them eat at Michelin starred restaurants every night. Somewhere you have to draw a line, and imo food banks should be for those who cannot otherwise afford to fed themselves, not those who would simply rather spend their money on something else.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 22:37:47 GMT 1
So how do the young couple across the road from me, with 2 kids, who have never worked a day in their life, run a car and live in an £800 a month house in a nice area? They have Sky TV on a large flat screen, smoke, drink and are the only house in the cul-de-sac who don't seem worried about utility bills. At night, every other house is in the dark, this one has lights on 24 hours a day. Food is not a major expense in the UK. If anyone is pleading poverty enough on benefits, that they need a food bank, they are not prioritising things properly. Why do food banks need a car park for instance?Food banks are generally multiple use buildings so for example it's a food bank on Friday, but on Sunday it's a church, on Tuesday it's the local scout group etc. Even if that's not the case, volunteers might have cars. Or even some of those who rely on food banks will have a car, if they need to get to work and don't have good public transport links, or they need to get the kid to nursery before work. You can feed yourself for £20 per week? I don't doubt it. I've managed on less than half that amount but there are other living costs beside food purchases. So, what would your opinion be of people driving to a food bank to get food? Do you think it doesn't happen?
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Mar 30, 2015 22:42:17 GMT 1
If somebody can afford to buy meat* then I would suggest that they probably don't need to use a food bank. Beans, lentils and chickpeas provide protein at a fraction of the cost, own brand marmite gives vitamin b12. Frankly they taste far better than cheap meat too. *Exception - if they trawl the supermarket just before closing, they might find some meat that's been drastically reduced as it's on its date. To be honest mate, I think I'd rather eat my own shit than eat lentils and pulses, they must be the most unappetizing food going. Then either you need some new bean and lentil recipes, or this book is better than I thought: www.amazon.co.uk/Cooking-Poo-Saiyuud-Diwong/dp/0977507076
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Post by gledholt terrier on Mar 30, 2015 22:46:37 GMT 1
Maybe we should let them eat at Michelin starred restaurants every night. Somewhere you have to draw a line, and imo food banks should be for those who cannot otherwise afford to fed themselves, not those who would simply rather spend their money on something else. I suspect food banks won't have the resources to means test everyone who comes through the doors.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 23:01:53 GMT 1
As I said I don't normally get involved with this subject, but Marcus coming from you....Deary me. I mean, have you ever admitted to being wrong? I know I have. It's political debate. Who decides which opinion is right or wrong? In politics we all have differing opinions, they are opinion, not fact. Unfortunately, the left wing socialists tend to ridicule opposition views rather than offering an alternative or debating. Most posts highlighting my name on this thread highlight this socialist tactic perfectly. It's not a new thing really is it? You of course are right Marcus, as always....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 23:22:19 GMT 1
It's political debate. Who decides which opinion is right or wrong? In politics we all have differing opinions, they are opinion, not fact. Unfortunately, the left wing socialists tend to ridicule opposition views rather than offering an alternative or debating. Most posts highlighting my name on this thread highlight this socialist tactic perfectly. It's not a new thing really is it? You of course are right Marcus, as always.... As I've said already, it's debate and opinion, nobody is right or wrong. To debate though, you have to offer an alternative opinion, not just ridicule opposing views. Something Millibland and Balls could do with taking on board. (In my non pro Guardian opinion of course! )
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 23:30:34 GMT 1
You of course are right Marcus, as always.... As I've said already, it's debate and opinion, nobody is right or wrong. To debate though, you have to offer an alternative opinion, not just ridicule opposing views. Something Millibland and Balls could do with taking on board. (In my non pro Guardian opinion of course! ) Thankfully for my sanity I don't get involved in political discussion. I keep an open mind. I even refuse to ridicule political leaders with childish references to their names.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 9:44:39 GMT 1
As I've said already, it's debate and opinion, nobody is right or wrong. To debate though, you have to offer an alternative opinion, not just ridicule opposing views. Something Millibland and Balls could do with taking on board. (In my non pro Guardian opinion of course! ) Thankfully for my sanity I don't get involved in political discussion. I keep an open mind. I even refuse to ridicule political leaders with childish references to their names. For someone definitely not getting involved in political discussion, you appear to be posting in this thread about political discussion quite a lot recently! If anything, it's kept a few of us amused whilst there's sod all football going on. Roll on the weekend!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 9:52:03 GMT 1
Thankfully for my sanity I don't get involved in political discussion. I keep an open mind. I even refuse to ridicule political leaders with childish references to their names. For someone definitely not getting involved in political discussion, you appear to be posting in this thread about political discussion quite a lot recently! If anything, it's kept a few of us amused whilst there's sod all football going on. Roll on the weekend!
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Post by sabailand on Mar 31, 2015 16:15:33 GMT 1
My weekly shop is around £50 a fortnight and I wouldn't say I was in poverty. Mind you, I don't have Sky Sports, smoke or buy supermarket booze. I make my own wine, so maybe I am in poverty? Know where you`re coming from mate,Poverty(in the UK) is one of the most missused words in the English language,poverty to some is not having the latest flat screen TV, or not being able to afford the latest x-box for Nathan at christmas,some folk should visit parts of Asia and Africa,there you will see poverty in all its fucking glory.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 19:16:38 GMT 1
All this thread has done is show Marcus talks a fair bit of cobblers and hates The Guardian. The previous Labour government were far too lenient with benefit claimants although they often clamped down on the wrong people. This government had been the polar opposite, IDS has launched a crusade on welfare and has divided society. Many genuine disabled people are struggling, under 25's are being persecuted and public services are bearing the brunt. We have no middle ground, one of a fair system that helps those in need and rewards those who work hard. As for this 'underclass' of people who don't work - depicted by silly TV shows on certain channels - they are dragging down the people who are currently out of work, people who need help but instead face a tirade of abuse from people who chose to shame those on benefits. So how can we improve this... The JobCentre should try and work as a recruitment centre for businesses finding them suitable employees, they should also provide the right education courses for individuals who don't have skills to make them employable. Incentivise those on JSA - For those unemployed for under 6/9 months, give them more money than those who are unemployed for over 6/9 months. Work with charities and volunteering initiatives to help fill much needed spaces with people who are willing to gain experience and use their time and experiences. All of the above is much better than forcing the unemployed to do community service which seems to be a common feature amongst people these days but very not thought through. If people work for their benefits they should be paid minimum wage and would be in compliance with employment law. Also restricting what people do with benefits would end up being a minefield - especially as things like the internet and mobile phones are practically necessities. As for tax avoidance, well it's certainly not 'anti Tory propaganda speil louded out by the usual champagne socialists' as our resident right winger says. More can be done to catch those in the act, it involves stronger attitudes from governments. Things such as making companies and people provide transparent country-by-country accounts, restrict the qualifying criteria for offshore and residency accounts, confronting avoidance promoters by banning banks than participate, require UK companies to automatically disclose all offshore accounts and holdings. I could go on all day but it won't happen until major tax reforms are undertaken and that requires a government that is willing to accept a hit from some sides. As for it being spiel being sounded out by supposed champagne socialists, I always find that people who use that term usually don't have a leg to stand on in reasoned debate. No, all it shows is that there are some people, shock, horror, who don't toe the line with your left wing views. Get used to it! As for the struggling disabled people, there may be some genuine cases, but there was also a load of fraud going on. In 2008, almost 1 in 5 adults of working age were claiming to be disabled. Do you really think 1 in 5 of working age are genuinely disabled? Why shouldn't the long term unemployed do community work for the free money the rest of us who work for a living, provide for them? I don't think it's too much to ask and would get some back into the habit of getting up in the morning. It make get some of them out of the rut and actually make them employable. It would also improve the local community, which some may actually start respecting for a change. As for the tax avoidance comment, explain to me how the UK government can extract corporation tax on an American (not UK) company incorporated in Ireland? I'm sure HMRC would be interested to hear this too... You do understand how the Double Irish tax avoidance system works I take it? "I'm right and everyone else is wrong".... A typical socialist blinkered opinion. - Your words, yet I've yet to see you have a reasonable debate on here, give answers or examples to the points you are making. It seems that you're the one that thinks everyone else is wrong otherwise you wouldn't have made yourself look like a fool at times on this thread. Are my views left wing? No - my political compass is in the centre. Are they left of yours? Definitely, mind you I'd suggest 99% of the people on here are to the left of you. The New Statesman did a wonderful article on how new tax laws could stop avoiders - google/Bing it. The ones I posted on here are ones that would work stop companies and individuals avoiding tax. Nowhere did I mention those using the one loophole you mentioned. That loophole is now being closed piece by piece due to pressure from the US, UK and EU. As for the long term unemployed working for the community. I've said this on another thread, if they are paid minimum wage I'd have no issue with it - employment law means they would have to be paid min. wage too. The early days of this governement saw people forced into work experience to work for nothing. that was until they got sued. It can't and shouldn't happen. And finally there may be some genuine cases with disabled people. My mum teaches the disabled, the struggles they've gone through under this government is a disgrace. One such case - a man unable to walk without being in agony due to botched operation being forced into doing a physical examination in Leeds. His doctor went with him and threatened the private organisation (key point: as many aren't medically trained) who now carry out these fit to work tests with legal action as it could've worsened his condition. This is only one example i've heard of. Many need to face the fact - There will always people who try and get something for nothing. It's human instinct. This needs to be etched out of society to create one that's fair for all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 19:20:57 GMT 1
You of course are right Marcus, as always.... As I've said already, it's debate and opinion, nobody is right or wrong. To debate though, you have to offer an alternative opinion, not just ridicule opposing views. Something Millibland and Balls could do with taking on board. (In my non pro Guardian opinion of course! )
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 31, 2015 19:23:24 GMT 1
As said before, if you paid them minimum wage you'd be EMPLOYING them,-ie creating a job for them and it would cost the taxpayer even more to look after them. And it would remove even more incentive to get a job for those that have no intention of doing that. Pay them their dole money and make them work for it, and make it LESS than they'd get if they took one of the many minimum wage jobs they avoid taking.
European law probably says it can't happen- but it should.
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Post by chinaski on Mar 31, 2015 19:29:26 GMT 1
Maybe we should let them eat at Michelin starred restaurants every night. Somewhere you have to draw a line, and imo food banks should be for those who cannot otherwise afford to fed themselves, not those who would simply rather spend their money on something else. I suspect food banks won't have the resources to means test everyone who comes through the doors. I have experience of volunteering at a food bank, you can't just walk in off the street and help yourself. You have to be referred by an agency. The majority of people who use these services are either homeless or have had their benefits sanctioned. It's a brilliant service ran almost entirely by volunteers but there really shouldn't be the levels of people depending on it in this day and age in an economically developed country.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Mar 31, 2015 19:38:36 GMT 1
I suspect food banks won't have the resources to means test everyone who comes through the doors. I have experience of volunteering at a food bank, you can't just walk in off the street and help yourself. You have to be referred by an agency. The majority of people who use these services are either homeless or have had their benefits sanctioned. It's a brilliant service ran almost entirely by volunteers but there really shouldn't be the levels of people depending on it in this day and age in an economically developed country. Don't tell Marcusd, they all have cars and choose to spend their pennies on skysports don't ya know
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Mar 31, 2015 19:38:35 GMT 1
No, all it shows is that there are some people, shock, horror, who don't toe the line with your left wing views. Get used to it! As for the struggling disabled people, there may be some genuine cases, but there was also a load of fraud going on. In 2008, almost 1 in 5 adults of working age were claiming to be disabled. Do you really think 1 in 5 of working age are genuinely disabled? Why shouldn't the long term unemployed do community work for the free money the rest of us who work for a living, provide for them? I don't think it's too much to ask and would get some back into the habit of getting up in the morning. It make get some of them out of the rut and actually make them employable. It would also improve the local community, which some may actually start respecting for a change. As for the tax avoidance comment, explain to me how the UK government can extract corporation tax on an American (not UK) company incorporated in Ireland? I'm sure HMRC would be interested to hear this too... You do understand how the Double Irish tax avoidance system works I take it? "I'm right and everyone else is wrong".... A typical socialist blinkered opinion. - Your words, yet I've yet to see you have a reasonable debate on here, give answers or examples to the points you are making. It seems that you're the one that thinks everyone else is wrong otherwise you wouldn't have made yourself look like a fool at times on this thread. Are my views left wing? No - my political compass is in the centre. Are they left of yours? Definitely, mind you I'd suggest 99% of the people on here are to the left of you. The New Statesman did a wonderful article on how new tax laws could stop avoiders - google/Bing it. The ones I posted on here are ones that would work stop companies and individuals avoiding tax. Nowhere did I mention those using the one loophole you mentioned. That loophole is now being closed piece by piece due to pressure from the US, UK and EU. As for the long term unemployed working for the community. I've said this on another thread, if they are paid minimum wage I'd have no issue with it - employment law means they would have to be paid min. wage too. The early days of this governement saw people forced into work experience to work for nothing. that was until they got sued. It can't and shouldn't happen. And finally there may be some genuine cases with disabled people. My mum teaches the disabled, the struggles they've gone through under this government is a disgrace. One such case - a man unable to walk without being in agony due to botched operation being forced into doing a physical examination in Leeds. His doctor went with him and threatened the private organisation (key point: as many aren't medically trained) who now carry out these fit to work tests with legal action as it could've worsened his condition. This is only one example i've heard of. Many need to face the fact - There will always people who try and get something for nothing. It's human instinct. This needs to be etched out of society to create one that's fair for all. What's to stop people on benefits working at least one day a week for their benefits (especially long term unemployed). The minimum wage is £6.70 and Job Seekers allowance is £72.40 - that's a ten hour day at above the minimum wage. If a ten hour shift is too much, split it into two 5 hour ones across two days There's plenty of litter to be collected, graffiti to be cleaned, chewing gum to be scrapped from the kerbs etc. It's not a new concept a country expecting those claiming Job seekers to do a bit of community work. Rather than "entitlement" the benefit would be earned (which is good for the individual - sense of accomplishment and gets them back into a working routine - and also the community)
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Post by thrice on Mar 31, 2015 19:41:42 GMT 1
Where are the local foodbanks?
I keep hearing they are on the rise but would not know where one is nor anybody who uses one.
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chinaski
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Post by chinaski on Mar 31, 2015 19:48:45 GMT 1
Where are the local foodbanks? I keep hearing they are on the rise but would not know where one is nor anybody who uses one. The one in Hudders is called The Welcome Centre just below pigeon park. It's been going for years but during this government the usage has increased ten-fold.
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Mar 31, 2015 19:49:49 GMT 1
Where are the local foodbanks? I keep hearing they are on the rise but would not know where one is nor anybody who uses one. I'm not aware of one in Huddersfield, I'm guessing there will be one though. As for use of food banks you have to be referred to the bank you can't just tip up and get a load of free shopping.
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Post by thrice on Mar 31, 2015 19:56:57 GMT 1
Where are the local foodbanks? I keep hearing they are on the rise but would not know where one is nor anybody who uses one. The one in Hudders is called The Welcome Centre just below pigeon park. It's been going for years but during this government the usage has increased ten-fold. Would you put that down to the current Government's policies or just greater accessibility etc? Folk are not ten times worse off in the last five years.
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chinaski
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Post by chinaski on Mar 31, 2015 20:03:30 GMT 1
The one in Hudders is called The Welcome Centre just below pigeon park. It's been going for years but during this government the usage has increased ten-fold. Would you put that down to the current Government's policies or just greater accessibility etc? Folk are not ten times worse off in the last five years. They've definitely become better publicised but you can't deny that the current administration's policies on welfare haven't played a part, too.
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Mar 31, 2015 20:16:50 GMT 1
Maybe we should let them eat at Michelin starred restaurants every night. Somewhere you have to draw a line, and imo food banks should be for those who cannot otherwise afford to fed themselves, not those who would simply rather spend their money on something else. I suspect food banks won't have the resources to means test everyone who comes through the doors. That's a fair comment, and I recognise that the logistics of ensuring that the help is directed only to those who need it must be a minefield. It's my understanding that you have to be referred by a GP or job centre to be able to claim - I'm pretty sure I couldn't just rock up at my local food bank unannounced & expect to take a few days' food with me. I suppose I was looking at it more from a moral standpoint. I don't think it's acceptable for people who can afford to feed themselves to take food from food banks, when there are people going days without food having to go without.
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on Mar 31, 2015 20:22:56 GMT 1
Food banks are generally multiple use buildings so for example it's a food bank on Friday, but on Sunday it's a church, on Tuesday it's the local scout group etc. Even if that's not the case, volunteers might have cars. Or even some of those who rely on food banks will have a car, if they need to get to work and don't have good public transport links, or they need to get the kid to nursery before work. You can feed yourself for £20 per week? I don't doubt it. I've managed on less than half that amount but there are other living costs beside food purchases. So, what would your opinion be of people driving to a food bank to get food? Do you think it doesn't happen? Fine, if they need to get food & have no other way of getting there. Presumably you think they should walk. A single lad in his early 20s, that'd be fine. A single mum with 3 kids who lives 4 miles from the nearest food bank, not so much.
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Post by Tinpot on Mar 31, 2015 20:36:46 GMT 1
My weekly shop is around £50 a fortnight and I wouldn't say I was in poverty. Mind you, I don't have Sky Sports, smoke or buy supermarket booze. I make my own wine, so maybe I am in poverty? Know where you`re coming from mate,Poverty(in the UK) is one of the most missused words in the English language,poverty to some is not having the latest flat screen TV, or not being able to afford the latest x-box for Nathan at christmas,some folk should visit parts of Asia and Africa,there you will see poverty in all its fucking glory. Yes & no. There is a culture of "poor me" in this country. Very few people think of themselves as being well off, they'll look at their neighbour who has something they don't & look on them with envy, rather than look at what they have compared to others. Those people next door have better holidays than you - they must be rich. Meanwhile your next door neighbour looks at how much nicer your car is. I know somebody who is on a 6 figure salary, has properties all over the country, owns a BMW, a Jag & an Aston Martin & only thinks of his income as "reasonable". I know somebody else on 3x the national average salary who genuinely thinks he's poor. Poverty is a massively overused word in this country. That said - poverty in this country is not simply not being able to afford a flat screen telly & an x-box. It's being forced to only eat every other day so that your kids can eat. It's seeing your kid picked on because he's wearing his sister's hand-me-down as a school shirt. Yeah, you've got a computer, but you need it to look for a job. But then you have to pawn it for a fraction of its worth because you've got no food in the house & if you don't turn the heating on your pipes will burst - so you have to pay to keep your home just above freezing.
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Post by Tinpot on Mar 31, 2015 20:43:45 GMT 1
Worth a watch:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 20:51:57 GMT 1
If only Marcus and a few others knew the inside track as to how the public sector & local/central govt outsourcers are incentivised under their various contracts then he might start to post a more balanced view...
I acknowledge that some of these contracts were continued and undertaken under the Labour administration but would say the lucrative aspect of these contracts tends to flourish under governments leaning more towards the right...
I think I've probably said enough now...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 22:57:39 GMT 1
As I've said already, it's debate and opinion, nobody is right or wrong. To debate though, you have to offer an alternative opinion, not just ridicule opposing views. Something Millibland and Balls could do with taking on board. (In my non pro Guardian opinion of course! ) And once again, the Socialists attack the right wing view without offering any debate or alternative, Yawn.... It's a bit tedious Transporter T26.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 23:05:09 GMT 1
Would you put that down to the current Government's policies or just greater accessibility etc? Folk are not ten times worse off in the last five years. They've definitely become better publicised but you can't deny that the current administration's policies on welfare haven't played a part, too. I know, Sky Sports are doing OK though.... Poverty? The UK doesn't know the meaning. Even the lowest of the low get enough free cash to live a healthy living if they pack up drugs, booze and fags. The only exception will be those temporarily denied benefits. Not long termers. Ten fold? Dream on.
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