|
Post by e14terrier on Mar 30, 2015 23:18:10 GMT 1
I was there.
Given how poor QPR were its hard to draw any conclusions about Town players. Holmes looked good but he'd never get that much space in a Championship game.
The left back Senior also impressed me, looked comfortable on the ball and took a couple of very good corners.
But in general very poor quality and slow paced. Hard to see how it would benefit a potential first team player.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 0:05:14 GMT 1
I've been saying it for ages that these nothing games do very little for their development in terms of being ready for first team football but usually get shot down by Coddington who won't have any of it Therein lies the problem, the gap in standard between U21 or U18 football and the Championship is huge. To be fair both teams were missing some quality players tonight, consequently the quality of the game suffered. Betcha some of those lads tonight will play a part in the first team shortly.
|
|
|
Post by philincalifornia on Mar 31, 2015 0:20:46 GMT 1
Classic. It wasn't flattering, we took our chances and dominated in the final third. QPR dordled around in their own half for most of the game. "Andy" was a bit more balanced. The other one was like this - Funniest thing I've seen this year !!!
|
|
|
Post by Essex Terrier on Mar 31, 2015 7:09:05 GMT 1
"The music editor of the Guardian..." - never thought I'd see THOSE words on DATM!! You're not otium (EPBS) in disguise are you? I hope you were watching. QPR commentators thought Holmes & Billing bossed in midfield. I was - impressed by (among others) Billing, but not Holmes. I'd like to see Billing get a gamor two, but not sure who he would replace - Coady?
|
|
|
Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Mar 31, 2015 9:13:56 GMT 1
That's where the problem lies for me. The better players in our U21's should get their chance to play with the senior players imo. If they played with better players at a better standard then they have a better chance of developing into good players. As I've said before, back in 2003/2004 Town under Peter Jackson had five teenagers in the team at the same time. Now his hand may have been forced into that as we didn't two brass farthings to rub together, but these lads soon became first team regulars. We could have that now if we had a manager with the balls to give them a chance instead of sticking with players who achieved one win in ten. I totally agree Powell should be braver, in partucular I'd like to have seen Billing or Tronstad played rather than Edgar in midfield and maybe even Hanson at RB when (based on someone else's opinion of him mind you!). However, in addition to Jackson's hands being tied, they were also playing a lot worse standard of football. Many of those players never played this level of football in their whole careers.That is true but we didn't have anything like the resources in our academy that we have now and the likes of Worthington, Holdsworth, the Clarkes, Mirfin, etc had good careers at the level that we were at at the time. We now supposedly have better facilities, a better recruitment process etc, so these young lads ought to be at the standard required for the level that we are at now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 10:25:54 GMT 1
I've been saying it for ages that these nothing games do very little for their development in terms of being ready for first team football but usually get shot down by Coddington who won't have any of it
So what's the alternative?
Assuming we accept that they need development to get to the level of "being ready for first team football".
|
|
|
Post by goodshot (FGS) on Mar 31, 2015 10:37:32 GMT 1
I've been saying it for ages that these nothing games do very little for their development in terms of being ready for first team football but usually get shot down by Coddington who won't have any of it
So what's the alternative?
Assuming we accept that they need development to get to the level of "being ready for first team football".
A proper reserve team playing in a reserve league week in week out like the old Central League. That's the only way to get players "match fit" imho. Reserve / fringe players like Gobern, Wallace, Lolley need to be playing 30+ games a season. That's the route that most of our decent players of the past took. Shine in the reserves - get promoted to the first team. The academy/u21's ought to be feeding the reserves not the first team. Don't suppose they have a Central League anymore so a bit of a pipe dream!
|
|
|
Post by Sio on Mar 31, 2015 10:46:28 GMT 1
So what's the alternative?
Assuming we accept that they need development to get to the level of "being ready for first team football".
A proper reserve team playing in a reserve league week in week out like the old Central League. That's the only way to get players "match fit" imho. Reserve / fringe players like Gobern, Wallace, Lolley need to be playing 30+ games a season. That's the route that most of our decent players of the past took. Shine in the reserves - get promoted to the first team. The academy/u21's ought to be feeding the reserves not the first team. Don't suppose they have a Central League anymore so a bit of a pipe dream! The U21's is effectively exactly the same as the reserve league.
|
|
|
Post by benmsmith4 on Mar 31, 2015 10:50:31 GMT 1
If they aren't in contention for the first team next season they need half season loans at L1/L2 clubs, do some due dilligence on said clubs to see which ones our lads are most likely to get regular games for. Holmes previous two loans were disasters really.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 10:59:52 GMT 1
There IS still a "Central League", its the "Final Third Development League" and is effectively the level below the u21 Professional Development League level that we play at, except it has no age limitation rulings.
Middlesboro and Hull have teams in the Central League, although primarily its lower league clubs... but I think its too regionalised (travel cost saving?) so the leagues are small sized and most clubs have only played around 15 league and cups (which is group table based, and Town are in that) so far.
Personally I think theres nothing significantly wrong with the rules that force only a limited number of overage players, it means clubs we're competing with, who have bigger budgets, aren't likely to just hoard a million players... what is wrong is the lack of competitive matches... and I really dont know why the 'development' or 'reserve' leagues can't just be operated as regular 24 team leagues (or maybe 20 if you discount the Premier League teams but want to allow the more competitive Conference teams to compete and you want 4 divisions).
As you suggest, give them a 40+ game season, playing week in week out, then they'd become footballers, you dont develop if most of your time on the ball you're just playing against your mates.
Its a similar reason to why many years ago I questioned the move to join the Academy system, with its watered down and shrunk and controlled leagues, whilst the School of Excellence clubs continued (at that time anyway, not sure how its progressed) with a larger league structure and promotion and relegation.
What do we gain from where we are, and what are the alternatives.
Would we attract Billing and Tronstad if we weren't in the Academy and Professional Development Leagues. Does it even matter, are they really going to become anything different to a player we'd just sign from elsewhere anyway to slot straight into the first team?
|
|
|
Post by goodshot (FGS) on Mar 31, 2015 11:08:10 GMT 1
A proper reserve team playing in a reserve league week in week out like the old Central League. That's the only way to get players "match fit" imho. Reserve / fringe players like Gobern, Wallace, Lolley need to be playing 30+ games a season. That's the route that most of our decent players of the past took. Shine in the reserves - get promoted to the first team. The academy/u21's ought to be feeding the reserves not the first team. Don't suppose they have a Central League anymore so a bit of a pipe dream! The U21's is effectively exactly the same as the reserve league. No its not.
|
|
monkbar
Darren Bullock Terrier
[M0:5]
Posts: 952
|
Post by monkbar on Mar 31, 2015 11:25:35 GMT 1
I used to go to every Town reserve game (when they used to be played at night so it was actually possible) and they were just as pedestrian if I'm honest. There's nothing like first team football no matter what you do.
|
|
|
Post by bristolterrier on Mar 31, 2015 11:26:57 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by Sio on Mar 31, 2015 11:30:26 GMT 1
The U21's is effectively exactly the same as the reserve league. No its not. T'is. How would we benefit from having a reserve team? We clearly don't like tiring out fringe players like Lolley etc in the u21's (who they could play for) - a reserve team would end up pretty much being our current u21's with the odd first team player in it. I.e. the U21's.
|
|
|
Post by EastCoastTerrier on Mar 31, 2015 11:33:33 GMT 1
I think the FA will be trying to make the u21s more competitive and a higher standard in the future, not sure how that will happen though. Much better to get players loaned out if they aren't gonna make the first team squad.
|
|
|
Post by Essex Terrier on Mar 31, 2015 11:36:43 GMT 1
If they aren't in contention for the first team next season they need half season loans at L1/L2 clubs, do some due dilligence on said clubs to see which ones our lads are most likely to get regular games for. Holmes previous two loans were disasters really. They were indeed, but the question many on here are asking is whether this is because the clubs didn't give him a chance or just because Holmes isn't (wasn't?) really good enough to play at this level (at the moment)?
|
|
|
Post by benmsmith4 on Mar 31, 2015 11:43:38 GMT 1
If they aren't in contention for the first team next season they need half season loans at L1/L2 clubs, do some due dilligence on said clubs to see which ones our lads are most likely to get regular games for. Holmes previous two loans were disasters really. They were indeed, but the question many on here are asking is whether this is because the clubs didn't give him a chance or just because Holmes isn't (wasn't?) really good enough to play at this level (at the moment)? I think its more a case of identifying the right club regardless of what level he's at. Yeovil and Bury from what I could tell didn't really NEED a player like Holmes at the time and in their respective situations. I don't know if the club already does this but for me this means more thought should go into what club they go to rather than just sending them out at random, or at a first come first serve basis.
|
|
|
Post by Terry Jacko on Mar 31, 2015 11:52:52 GMT 1
Are we big enough to affiliate with a smaller club in order to benefit our youngsters and their first team? Halifax maybe or someone like Accrington
|
|
|
Post by bro600 on Mar 31, 2015 12:37:21 GMT 1
Are we big enough to affiliate with a smaller club in order to benefit our youngsters and their first team? Halifax maybe or someone like Accrington No i don't think we are.. But i think what it all reverts back to is the rungs in the football ladder being too wide to the detriment of young English football players. Before the influx of foreigners to our game and the introduction of Sky the scale of wages wasn't so large between top and bottom and the fear of a bad run of form and relegation wasn't as serious so clubs would throw the youngsters into the reserves and first teams more often. The quality of opposition was that of experienced footballers with a point to prove and playing more for the love of the game so 9x out of ten it was genuine opposition. Nowadays with the coaches looking at all aspects of individuals from Health to intelligence and armed with statistics and technology players are moulded to fit within a set structure and skill and individuality comes second. The financial fear of first team failure means that options are limited and most clubs would look to spend rather than risk the kind of reaction you see on here after a loss. It's a price English football and mainly supporters are having to pay for what was a very good product some 15-20 years ago but is slowly being ruined by the greed of the few and the pricing out of the supporters, players and managers who made it so successful.
|
|
|
Post by Captainslapper on Mar 31, 2015 12:57:29 GMT 1
Holmes highlights the problem with Under 21 development football, compared with the old style reserves IMO. Old style reserves were full of older experienced players. Fringe players not getting 90 mins in the first team. It had that physical edge that the U21 don't and the jump in the current system between u21s an first team seems massive. Holmes often shines at U21 level playing against kids his own age. Put him in the first team against senior pros and he looks completely out of his depth, like a kid playing with grown ups.
|
|
|
Post by goodshot (FGS) on Mar 31, 2015 13:04:21 GMT 1
T'is. How would we benefit from having a reserve team? We clearly don't like tiring out fringe players like Lolley etc in the u21's (who they could play for) - a reserve team would end up pretty much being our current u21's with the odd first team player in it. I.e. the U21's. I appreciate the clock is not going to be turned back - but the old Central League as it used to be was a good system. A very competitive reserve league which many of the old "1st Division" side came through - and first came to prominence in. When the first team was away the reserve team used to play at home and vice versa - full set of fixtures. The big advantage to me would be that players like Gobern, Wallace, Lolley etc would be match fit from playing every week and wouldn't look as though they were caught in the headlights when the step in to the first team. I guess it foundered economically. Bit of a pointless argument because it isn't going to happen and I guess the number of subs allowed now creates a problem. How can Gobern and Lolley and even Nahki ever get match fit - being on the bench precludes them from playing many "reserve" games. Maybe there is no concept of "match fit" in the modern game.
|
|
|
Post by goodshot (FGS) on Mar 31, 2015 13:06:47 GMT 1
Holmes highlights the problem with Under 21 development football, compared with the old style reserves IMO. Old style reserves were full of older experienced players. Fringe players not getting 90 mins in the first team. It had that physical edge that the U21 don't and the jump in the current system between u21s an first team seems massive. Holmes often shines at U21 level playing against kids his own age. Put him in the first team against senior pros and he looks completely out of his depth, like a kid playing with grown ups. Think that sums it up pretty well. Guess it doesn't matter for the Premiership academies anyway because so few of their products ever make it to first team Premiership level. Decent for us though!
|
|
|
Post by jqhtfc on Mar 31, 2015 15:43:48 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by saintlyterrier on Mar 31, 2015 18:29:30 GMT 1
Saw the hoghlights (thank you). Some pretty good stuff. It demonstrates that this board is full of miserable glass-half full sods.
|
|
|
Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Mar 31, 2015 19:00:55 GMT 1
Holmes highlights the problem with Under 21 development football, compared with the old style reserves IMO. Old style reserves were full of older experienced players. Fringe players not getting 90 mins in the first team. It had that physical edge that the U21 don't and the jump in the current system between u21s an first team seems massive. Holmes often shines at U21 level playing against kids his own age. Put him in the first team against senior pros and he looks completely out of his depth, like a kid playing with grown ups.I hope there is a lot to come from him and he has to show more on a consistent basis but a kid against grown ups is simply looking at his physique and judging him on that only, a prime example of judging a book by its cover. I think you're being a tad harsh on Duane Holmes here, he has only made 2 starts for us, and made a couple of key contributions to change the game when appearing as sub last year against Blackpool and Derby. They IMO were rare occasions in our recent history when a substitution has swung the game in our favour.
|
|
|
Post by Captainslapper on Mar 31, 2015 19:49:05 GMT 1
Its not simply looking at his physique at all. It looking at his inability to not get muscled off the ball by any opposition player..his inability to muscle any opposition player off the ball, his inability to win a tackle or a header. He plays the game like hes a kid in a mans game- looks well out of his depth. Yes he has the ability to run forward dribbling the ball which on very few occasions hes actually done to any effect, but even there he invariable loses possession quite easily after beating a couple of players. One trick pony and it isn't that great a trick. Other than that he offers nothing at all, and you are effectively playing with 10 men if we don't have the ball.
If I was his advisor id suggest he tries his luck on the continent, maybe a spanish or French 2nd tier side, where theres hardly any physicality at all. Think it would suit him far more than our FL. Its just too physical for him and I'll be very surprised if he makes it as a pro at all.
|
|
|
Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Mar 31, 2015 19:59:20 GMT 1
Its not simply looking at his physique at all. It looking at his inability to not get muscled off the ball by any opposition player..his inability to muscle any opposition player off the ball, his inability to win a tackle or a header. He plays the game like hes a kid in a mans game- looks well out of his depth. Yes he has the ability to run forward dribbling the ball which on very few occasions hes actually done to any effect, but even there he invariable loses possession quite easily after beating a couple of players. One trick pony and it isn't that great a trick. Other than that he offers nothing at all, and you are effectively playing with 10 men if we don't have the ball. If I was his advisor id suggest he tries his luck on the continent, maybe a spanish or French 2nd tier side, where theres hardly any physicality at all. Think it would suit him far more than our FL. Its just too physical for him and I'll be very surprised if he makes it as a pro at all. I disagree with this paragraph but know better than to enter a lengthy debate with you over the subject as I've yet to witness you change your opinion regardless of the subject, but the 'one trick pony' with not that good a trick did the job well in the highlights above and had the same number of assists as Vaughan and Nahki last year and more than Scannell - another you didn't think was upto it last season. I hope Duane goes on to prove you similarly incorrect particularly as you can only be basing this opinion on his 462 minutes in a Town shirt (or 5 full games and 12 mins if you prefer) The playing with 10 men when the opposition have the ball could be levelled (IMO moreso) at Lolley. Last years assists here
|
|
|
Post by EastCoastTerrier on Mar 31, 2015 20:05:03 GMT 1
Nice one for sticking the highlights up. Holmes looked good, plenty of people happy to moan about the style of football we play so why not throw him in for some flair even for just the last half hour. Would like to see Billing get a couple of starts before the end of the season.
|
|
|
Post by Captainslapper on Mar 31, 2015 22:31:09 GMT 1
Its not simply looking at his physique at all. It looking at his inability to not get muscled off the ball by any opposition player..his inability to muscle any opposition player off the ball, his inability to win a tackle or a header. He plays the game like hes a kid in a mans game- looks well out of his depth. Yes he has the ability to run forward dribbling the ball which on very few occasions hes actually done to any effect, but even there he invariable loses possession quite easily after beating a couple of players. One trick pony and it isn't that great a trick. Other than that he offers nothing at all, and you are effectively playing with 10 men if we don't have the ball. If I was his advisor id suggest he tries his luck on the continent, maybe a spanish or French 2nd tier side, where theres hardly any physicality at all. Think it would suit him far more than our FL. Its just too physical for him and I'll be very surprised if he makes it as a pro at all. I disagree with this paragraph but know better than to enter a lengthy debate with you over the subject as I've yet to witness you change your opinion regardless of the subject, but the 'one trick pony' with not that good a trick did the job well in the highlights above and had the same number of assists as Vaughan and Nahki last year and more than Scannell - another you didn't think was upto it last season. I hope Duane goes on to prove you similarly incorrect particularly as you can only be basing this opinion on his 462 minutes in a Town shirt (or 5 full games and 12 mins if you prefer) The playing with 10 men when the opposition have the ball could be levelled (IMO moreso) at Lolley. Last years assists hereScannell was poor last year but with him at least you could see that he COULD be good enough. He had the strength and skill- he just lacked the application and effort. Time will tell, but IMO Holmes won't make it at championship level as long as I have a hole in my arse, and i very much doubt he'll make it at L1 or L2 level either. The Blackpool clip was great- people were going way OTT on the back of that for a while like he was the 2nd coming of Lionel Messi or something. Thats by far and away his best moment in the 1st team, but is that enough for you? The derby clip is just a hopeful flick into the box- a moment in a game that went right for him instead of going straight to a derby player. I judge him by his general play in the times Ive seen him, and IMO he would have to improve DRAMATICALLY to have any chance at all. Fair enough it doesn't add up to a massive amount of time, but Im happy to stick my neck out and make a prediction based on it. And i do genuinely hope Im wrong but IMo he has to build himself up an awful lot AND add much more to his game and I doubt he can/will.
|
|