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Post by AndySk on Feb 4, 2016 13:30:26 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks. Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back. Good post. Stats are all very well but surely they're not needed to see what a difference DW has brought to the club. Like you, Powell pretty much stopped me enjoying going away to watch Town, only went to Hull this season under him and it was clear from the pathetic way we lined up against them we wouldnt be going in to games to win them. Fully back in the away day swing of things now we've Wagner in
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Feb 4, 2016 13:34:36 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks. Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back. Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately It's a combination of computer games and American sports that have changed it. All these websites popping up where players are given a rating to decimal points based on their numbers in a game, like we're playing a game on FIFA. A lot of this in turn comes from American sports like basketball and gridiron where you can get average numbers of yards thrown or defensive rebounds per game. It blinds people to what they see with their eyes in a game.
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Feb 4, 2016 14:16:05 GMT 1
Only 5 teams have conceded more (a slight improvement on last season) and that's what's holding us back in my opinion. The standard of football has improved and we now try to win games but we are being held back by our failure to strengthen the defence. Spot on . We are scoring plenty but shipping far too many. If Chilwell comes back that will make a big difference. DW still needs to do some work on defensive organisation, especially from corners and set pieces (ours and theirs). No good learning a new "lesson" every week! Have we conceded that many goals from set pieces this season? I can't think of too many. I'd say we've conceded most of our goals from balls coming across the box. Wonder if there is a pitch map of where the assists come from.
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Post by space hardware on Feb 4, 2016 14:39:59 GMT 1
It's about more than stats though isn't it? We go at teams and try to win games rather than play percentages and grind out results with turgid football. Games are a lot more enjoyable and there is a buzz about the club again. I didn't go to an away game under Powell, partly because I don't think he had the belief we could win them, but I'm going to Preston and Forest in consecutive weeks. Football is not a game of spreadsheets, it's a game of passion, and under Wagner our club has its passion back. Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately This stat obsession reached a new low on the BBC live blog of transfer deadline day this week. They had an "expert" on the Football Manager game analysing various players who were targets or had been signed that day. The guy was yapping on as if he knew what he was talking about. It's a computer game for kids or gimps with no social life FFS!
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Feb 4, 2016 15:02:54 GMT 1
Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately This stat obsession reached a new low on the BBC live blog of transfer deadline day this week. They had an "expert" on the Football Manager game analysing various players who were targets or had been signed that day. The guy was yapping on as if he knew what he was talking about. It's a computer game for kids or gimps with no social life FFS! Yeah I saw that and had a rant about it to a mate. Absolute bollocks.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 4, 2016 15:04:06 GMT 1
Spot on . We are scoring plenty but shipping far too many. If Chilwell comes back that will make a big difference. DW still needs to do some work on defensive organisation, especially from corners and set pieces (ours and theirs). No good learning a new "lesson" every week! Have we conceded that many goals from set pieces this season? I can't think of too many. I'd say we've conceded most of our goals from balls coming across the box. Wonder if there is a pitch map of where the assists come from. Ben, I think the set piece goals have been such shockers they have overshadowed all the balls across the box in open play. The bristol goals will forever live in the memory and the question will still be asked in many years time 'what the hell was going on there'? I dont think we have conceded a goal where they had more in our box than us.. so the work ethic of getting back is at least partly working..unfortunately just being there as the ball is put in the net is somewhat useless but its something, someone could work on if they slapped everyone who was caught ball watching? you would get a sore hand but it might eventually sink it?
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Feb 4, 2016 15:13:36 GMT 1
Spot on . We are scoring plenty but shipping far too many. If Chilwell comes back that will make a big difference. DW still needs to do some work on defensive organisation, especially from corners and set pieces (ours and theirs). No good learning a new "lesson" every week! Have we conceded that many goals from set pieces this season? I can't think of too many. I'd say we've conceded most of our goals from balls coming across the box. Wonder if there is a pitch map of where the assists come from. Maybe it's the couple in one match (Bristol City?) that stick in my mind! I tend to worry more when it's a corner to us! One major area we need to improve is in conceding free kicks around the box.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Feb 4, 2016 16:10:54 GMT 1
1. Our defence is weaker 2. Striking options poorer 3. Playing good football at times. Cant really see progress so far. Lets see this summer That's an extremely blinkered take on it, Nick. Try this one from morleyterrier who not very long ago would have agreed with you... Good post by the OP. Points is one thing and I of course am of the view we must stay in this division. My view on progress is though more than than just solely stats. I like Wagner and his interviews. His frank, honest assessments and not an excuse in sight. I am also really enjoying the attacking football and enjoying going as much as I have since probably Clark's first season. The mere fact I am actually going again is also progress. The main think though is moments of excitement in every match not dull dreary 'nothingness' and having belief and hope that something special may just be round the corner? (maybe not!). Having a fresh and new approach to football, something different is proving to be significant progress in my opinion. Long Live Wagner and what he is trying to achieve as trust me, the alternative will be grim. Thats one of my views though. Granted its more exciting to watch.
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Feb 4, 2016 16:28:43 GMT 1
Have we conceded that many goals from set pieces this season? I can't think of too many. I'd say we've conceded most of our goals from balls coming across the box. Wonder if there is a pitch map of where the assists come from. Maybe it's the couple in one match (Bristol City?) that stick in my mind! I tend to worry more when it's a corner to us! One major area we need to improve is in conceding free kicks around the box. I'm not sure Jed Steer is the best GK when it comes to free kicks. He does seem to struggle for what ever reason. I seem to remember one against Reading in the league, Powells last game? There was one the week before or after as well I think. The one against Cardiff was a belter, I was right behind the goal and thought he was a bit far over but it was hit so hard I'm not sure it would of mattered. Our full backs appear to be the defensive weak links this season.
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Post by swissterrier on Feb 4, 2016 16:38:33 GMT 1
Unfortunately the spreadsheet merchants are taking over ... The ridiculous "assist " stats serving to illustrate that a player is any good springs to mind immediately This stat obsession reached a new low on the BBC live blog of transfer deadline day this week. They had an "expert" on the Football Manager game analysing various players who were targets or had been signed that day. The guy was yapping on as if he knew what he was talking about. It's a computer game for kids or gimps with no social life FFS! Erm.. this wasn't the first time they've done this. Indeed I'm pretty sure they've had the so called experts from Football Manager for several transfer and loan deadline days. This time around it was pretty subdued; for one of the previous deadlines they had (I think) 4 different "FM" pundits.....
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Post by swissterrier on Feb 4, 2016 17:05:47 GMT 1
Looking purely at results Town has not progressed this season v last season. This: Played 29-32 points, goal difference -3 7 points off drop zone. Last: Played 29-37 points, goal difference -9 8 points off drop zone. 39 goals for in both seasons. Teams above Town (at the same date) beaten by Town Last: Wolves, Forest, Brentford, Watford This: Birmingham, Preston. Defensive frailties are still around and lack of goals scored is still around. So it seems to me that the only area of progress is the style of football played and I do not think anyone would argue against that. The question then remains (IMO) "Can Town show actual league position and points progress by the end of the season?" I still believe that Town will finish higher than last season's 16th (55 points)which means that the team needs more than 23 points from the last 18 games. Comments please. But we can also look at these another way. Under Powell (15 games) we never won against teams currently above us. Under Wagner (13 games) we have won twice - if he had been at the club from the start we could theorise we would have won 4 matches against teams above us. As stated by Mr Mcgee, under DW we have averaged 1.42points per game. Therefore we would currently have had 41pts (rounding down) that means 9 more points than we currently have, also exceeding what we had at the same point last season. Looking at our goals difference, since DW took over, we are at +4 (again as per Mr McGee ignoring the L**ds match where he wasn't in charge), so extrapolating back to the beginning of the season we would have +8 GD (rounding down). So for the entire season we would end up as: 65pts and a GD of +14 which would have placed us 10th last season.
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Post by richyhtfc on Feb 4, 2016 17:53:22 GMT 1
Have we progressed? Well the only thing that matters when deciding this is league table. So no not yet.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 18:45:29 GMT 1
Said it before and I'll say it again, without splashing some cash we are as high in the table as we are likely to get give or take a position or two. Doesn't matter who the manager is or what superdooper gangbanging tactics we employ the squad of players we have simply aren't good enough to finish any higher.We could entice Alex Fergurson out of retirement but without cash to spend it would make no difference. That's not having a go at the players I'm sure they are all trying as hard as they can, or the board I'm sure the cash just isn't there. The facts don't lie though we are no further forward under Wagner yet than we have been under Robbins Grayson or powell. There are no points for passing possession or any amount of missed shots. I'll stick behind Town whatever the situation or league but I am getting the feeling this will be as good as it gets for us.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Feb 4, 2016 18:56:28 GMT 1
Said it before and I'll say it again, without splashing some cash we are as high in the table as we are likely to get give or take a position or two. Doesn't matter who the manager is or what superdooper gangbanging tactics we employ the squad of players we have simply aren't good enough to finish any higher.We could entice Alex Fergurson out of retirement but without cash to spend it would make no difference. That's not having a go at the players I'm sure they are all trying as hard as they can, or the board I'm sure the cash just isn't there. The facts don't lie though we are no further forward under Wagner yet than we have been under Robbins Grayson or powell. There are no points for passing possession or any amount of missed shots. I'll stick behind Town whatever the situation or league but I am getting the feeling this will be as good as it gets for us. And for the size of club we are we certainly aren't underachieving.. but the chairman realised everyone was a little bored so... In the absence of big money... Thought out of the box.. I was sceptical but I think he should be saluted for his vision .. this time next year we will be top half at least I'm certain of it
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Post by space hardware on Feb 4, 2016 19:17:52 GMT 1
This stat obsession reached a new low on the BBC live blog of transfer deadline day this week. They had an "expert" on the Football Manager game analysing various players who were targets or had been signed that day. The guy was yapping on as if he knew what he was talking about. It's a computer game for kids or gimps with no social life FFS! Erm.. this wasn't the first time they've done this. Indeed I'm pretty sure they've had the so called experts from Football Manager for several transfer and loan deadline days. This time around it was pretty subdued; for one of the previous deadlines they had (I think) 4 different "FM" pundits..... First time I've followed deadline day on the BBC website so I wouldn't know.
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Post by kes on Feb 4, 2016 20:14:11 GMT 1
Probably further away - in real terms - from the top division than we have been in all the years I`ve watched Town since 1979.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Feb 4, 2016 20:20:06 GMT 1
Probably further away - in real terms - from the top division than we have been in all the years I`ve watched Town since 1979. What???
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Feb 4, 2016 20:23:25 GMT 1
Maybe it's the couple in one match (Bristol City?) that stick in my mind! I tend to worry more when it's a corner to us! One major area we need to improve is in conceding free kicks around the box. I'm not sure Jed Steer is the best GK when it comes to free kicks. He does seem to struggle for what ever reason. I seem to remember one against Reading in the league, Powells last game? There was one the week before or after as well I think. The one against Cardiff was a belter, I was right behind the goal and thought he was a bit far over but it was hit so hard I'm not sure it would of mattered. Our full backs appear to be the defensive weak links this season. Can't disagree with that. Better of course if we don't actually concede so many free kicks around the box. Maybe that will only improve with better quality defenders.
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ben1987
Mental Health Support Group
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Post by ben1987 on Feb 4, 2016 20:33:00 GMT 1
I'm not sure Jed Steer is the best GK when it comes to free kicks. He does seem to struggle for what ever reason. I seem to remember one against Reading in the league, Powells last game? There was one the week before or after as well I think. The one against Cardiff was a belter, I was right behind the goal and thought he was a bit far over but it was hit so hard I'm not sure it would of mattered. Our full backs appear to be the defensive weak links this season. Can't disagree with that. Better of course if we don't actually concede so many free kicks around the box. Maybe that will only improve with better quality defenders. If we'd of had Chillwell from the start of the season right through to the end id say we'd of conceded a few less goals. I don't think smith has had a horror year but we do concede way to many goals. I know Preston can't be that entertaining given the amount of goals they've scored but their defensive record is amazing all things considering.
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Post by dalton knee-jerk on Feb 4, 2016 20:47:02 GMT 1
Probably further away - in real terms - from the top division than we have been in all the years I`ve watched Town since 1979. Nurse, NURSE !!!!!
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Post by richyhtfc on Feb 4, 2016 22:32:02 GMT 1
Probably further away - in real terms - from the top division than we have been in all the years I`ve watched Town since 1979. Nurse, NURSE !!!!! With the amount of money needed if you want to buy proven players, hes not wrong.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Feb 4, 2016 22:36:52 GMT 1
With the amount of money needed if you want to buy proven players, hes not wrong. In 2003 we had no money whatsoever and 8 players in League 2. That was pretty far off the top league and way further away than we are now.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Feb 4, 2016 22:39:26 GMT 1
I'm not sure Jed Steer is the best GK when it comes to free kicks. He does seem to struggle for what ever reason. I seem to remember one against Reading in the league, Powells last game? There was one the week before or after as well I think. The one against Cardiff was a belter, I was right behind the goal and thought he was a bit far over but it was hit so hard I'm not sure it would of mattered. Our full backs appear to be the defensive weak links this season. Can't disagree with that. Better of course if we don't actually concede so many free kicks around the box. Maybe that will only improve with better quality defenders. give steer a cattle prod.. that will improve the position we start defending from.. we must cover some ground running away from where the ball is, its wasted effort..
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Post by richyhtfc on Feb 4, 2016 23:12:55 GMT 1
With the amount of money needed if you want to buy proven players, hes not wrong. In 2003 we had no money whatsoever and 8 players in League 2. That was pretty far off the top league and way further away than we are now. Ad still stick by my point, the money we need now if we was buying proven players who could get us up now and compared to then, we would need more now. Yes we had no money back then, but we don't exactly have the money to do it now.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Feb 4, 2016 23:17:50 GMT 1
In 2003 we had no money whatsoever and 8 players in League 2. That was pretty far off the top league and way further away than we are now. Ad still stick by my point, the money we need now if we was buying proven players who could get us up now and compared to then, we would need more now. Yes we had no money back then, but we don't exactly have the money to do it now. In a position to do a Burnley/Blackpool - improbable but more likely than in 03
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Post by kes on Feb 4, 2016 23:30:16 GMT 1
With the amount of money needed if you want to buy proven players, hes not wrong. That`s the point. And I`m not being critical of DH - It`s taken 40 million quid to take a mid table league one side to a lower championship side. Derby have spent that this season. Allowing for inflation and the wealth of other clubs owners and the general amount of money now sloshing around, the relative amount now required to propel any club to the premier league is far,far higher now than it has ever been. A multi-millionaire owner for most of Town`s history would easily have been able to bankroll any club to the top flight. Now it`s becoming a billionaires club and getting harder every year.
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Post by gledholt terrier on Feb 4, 2016 23:55:45 GMT 1
With the amount of money needed if you want to buy proven players, hes not wrong. That`s the point. And I`m not being critical of DH - It`s taken 40 million quid to take a mid table league one side to a lower championship side. Derby have spent that this season. Allowing for inflation and the wealth of other clubs owners and the general amount of money now sloshing around, the relative amount now required to propel any club to the premier league is far,far higher now than it has ever been. A multi-millionaire owner for most of Town`s history would easily have been able to bankroll any club to the top flight. Now it`s becoming a billionaires club and getting harder every year. You're not wrong about the obscene money needed (but still think we were far further away in 03!) Even attempting to spend the amounts others can is wildly foolish and doing something different is the only chance we have. (I personally don't care that much about getting there but like the thought of disrupting the accepted wisdom of piling cash in to the attempt and surprising people. I don't want us paying the "going rate", whatever nonsense that is, and put the club in jeopardy)
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Post by Captainslapper on Feb 5, 2016 0:12:41 GMT 1
Looking purely at results Town has not progressed this season v last season. This: Played 29-32 points, goal difference -3 7 points off drop zone. Last: Played 29-37 points, goal difference -9 8 points off drop zone. 39 goals for in both seasons. Teams above Town (at the same date) beaten by Town Last: Wolves, Forest, Brentford, Watford This: Birmingham, Preston. Defensive frailties are still around and lack of goals scored is still around. So it seems to me that the only area of progress is the style of football played and I do not think anyone would argue against that. The question then remains (IMO) "Can Town show actual league position and points progress by the end of the season?" I still believe that Town will finish higher than last season's 16th (55 points)which means that the team needs more than 23 points from the last 18 games. Comments please. Don't compare different seasons. Its pretty meaningless. Different players at different clubs with different managers and different form. Peterborough ended 2011/12 in this division with 50 points and a goal difference of -10 and finished 18th. The following season they improved on that, got 54 points and a goal difference of -9...... and got relegated in 22nd.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Feb 5, 2016 0:37:14 GMT 1
Can't disagree with that. Better of course if we don't actually concede so many free kicks around the box. Maybe that will only improve with better quality defenders. If we'd of had Chillwell from the start of the season right through to the end id say we'd of conceded a few less goals. I don't think smith has had a horror year but we do concede way to many goals. I know Preston can't be that entertaining given the amount of goals they've scored but their defensive record is amazing all things considering. Except against us of course.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Feb 5, 2016 0:39:52 GMT 1
Can't disagree with that. Better of course if we don't actually concede so many free kicks around the box. Maybe that will only improve with better quality defenders. give steer a cattle prod.. that will improve the position we start defending from.. we must cover some ground running away from where the ball is, its wasted effort.. Tricky one galpharm. Quite a few of those free kicks have been conceded in desperation to stop players coming through when we have been caught too high up the pitch Better defenders would be a better starting point.
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