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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 21:14:53 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 21:18:08 GMT 1
Why wasn't Rolf Harris let off? He's retired too The judge said his retirement was a bit sketchy! |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jan 13, 2017 21:31:24 GMT 1
They should be the first in the dock. The senior commanders are all dead aside from Dukinfield and he still thinks he hasn'the done anything wrong. Corporate charges should be brought against South Yorkshire Police, Sheffield Wednesday and the Football Association.
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Post by Terriersmad on Jan 13, 2017 21:42:59 GMT 1
That's internal police procedure. Not criminal sanctions. Criminal sanctions remain a possibility. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Jan 13, 2017 22:12:01 GMT 1
That's internal police procedure. Not criminal sanctions. Criminal sanctions remain a possibility. That's a threadender |
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Post by Beech's Nuts on Jan 14, 2017 1:39:14 GMT 1
That's internal police procedure. Not criminal sanctions. Criminal sanctions remain a possibility. That's a threadender Is he the new striker? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 11:48:03 GMT 1
That's internal police procedure. Not criminal sanctions. Criminal sanctions remain a possibility. Not doubting you, but this 'internal procedure' might easily be abused to bury misdemeanour, might it not? Is that why so many coppers take early retirement? I doubt the latter, of course, but it will be interesting to see if criminal proceedings follow. |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jan 14, 2017 12:52:06 GMT 1
That's internal police procedure. Not criminal sanctions. Criminal sanctions remain a possibility. Not doubting you, but this 'internal procedure' might easily be abused to bury misdemeanour, might it not? Is that why so many coppers take early retirement? I doubt the latter, of course, but it will be interesting to see if criminal proceedings follow. no your right it is why some retire early.. but of course they didnt make the rules and the Police Federation has none of the powers of any other 'union'(if you can call it that).. If you work in a criminal system(police officers facing a criminal allegation) that has you 'guilty till proven innocent' and then gets a second and sometimes a third go to sack you for 'breaches of police discipline codes', the lawyers do advise quite a lot that 'the bastards are going to get you for something' and to retire.. We have a Police Force determined to 'catch' a number of their own and they have stooped to lows that the civilian population would scream blue murder about to show how 'PC and clean' the service is. It isnt, not in the higher echelons anyway as the merry go round of Chief Constables has shown only to clearly of recent times. Problem with this enquiry now is, why would any retired officers word on what occurred be anymore valid now than it was if they lied to cover up? Because it suits the 'wants' of the enquiry?  Our ex chief has already stated he has been interviewed and treated as a criminal suspect? no charges??? They were under 'pressure' then, they are under more 'pressure' now to make their 'statement' The minions being fed to the expectant public? The whole thing was tainted from minute one.. Do you believe a person who has previously been proved to be a liar who changes his story under incredible pressure??? Duckinfield has a mental health issue now, true or false its what 80% of people in the shit use now as a get out clause.. You reap what you sow.. I still contend that a countrywide blitz through the tv and radio and newspapers after the incident could not have been organised and managed and forced through for as long as it was by a middle ranking Police officer or even a couple of Chiefs calling in favours. The powers behind the cover up at the time and since have all walked away scot free and unblemished. The jokers in parliament now on all sides calling for police officers and whole police forces to be charged with all sorts of shit know this but they will defend their political 'friends' and ex high ranking party members (over the whole period) to the hilt.. |
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Post by spyinthesky on Jan 15, 2017 15:21:03 GMT 1
The families will never get the justice they want and even if action is brought against a few individuals, any sentence given will not be enough. The laws and rules have changed for such events and the police seem to have been given the brunt of blame. The FA held the event and are at the top of the triangle, corporate manslaughter. As for the cover up it was a normal thing to do and probably still is.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jan 15, 2017 15:34:35 GMT 1
The families will never get the justice they want and even if action is brought against a few individuals, any sentence given will not be enough. The laws and rules have changed for such events and the police seem to have been given the brunt of blame. The FA held the event and are at the top of the triangle, corporate manslaughter. As for the cover up it was a normal thing to do and probably still is. what has changed is the technology and the recording of these type of events.. from the initial match 'plan' by the stadium security and the police to every single radio transmission and every command or order being fully recorded on computer. Anyone with any input at all is recorded for posterity. All decisions made are recorded and the reasons for them are also recorded. There were serious concerns re previous matches of this type at this stadium, they are either totally missing or so badly recorded as to be worthless to any subsequent enquiries. That would not happen now. The cover up was, I believe, far up the pecking order and outside the powers of the Police. Frightened people make bad decisions and shitty witnesses. They still will in this matter. The conservatives were in 'power' at the time but you and I do not know if any other powerful politicians both local and national had 'interests' in the incident being merely 'football supporters causing mayhem'... Personally I loathe this new power being used in all sorts of incidents now, its called 'hindsight' and 'should have done this or that' whilst totally ignoring the time lapse and the fact that we do things now, today that in 5 years or 10 years will be seen as archaic and very 'wrong'... It does not get questioned enough and those using it are almost exclusively 'pygmies' of previous persons of standing.. |
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Post by artysid on Jan 15, 2017 15:46:19 GMT 1
I don't know how far the cover up went, but it certainly went down as far as police officers changing witness statements.
What worries me is that the "names" submitted seem to relate to failings at the game or before, which however negligent, I don't believe were intended to have the consequences they did.
However the cover up afterwards (for which far fewer "names" have been submitted) is unforgivable, and those who participated whether at the top of the pecking orders or down at the "I was only carrying out orders" level (I suspect a bit of both) are scum.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Jun 29, 2018 11:08:41 GMT 1
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jun 29, 2018 11:32:59 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 11:42:07 GMT 1
Unfortunately it will only be JFT95.  |
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jun 29, 2018 11:44:29 GMT 1
One would hope that Tony Bland's loved ones would feel that, if returned, a guilty verdict gives them some closure and that the implication of guilt extends to him.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jun 29, 2018 11:54:25 GMT 1
just one bloke.. grenfell might go the same way as the low ranking(in terms of organisation and tactical rules) fire officer might find out..
the people with the power to order and organise this size of cover up?? still out there making the rules and covering their backs as we speak..
we might learn something from an incident, we don't learn to deal with the aftermaths and we rarely if ever get justice..
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Post by iangreaves on Jun 29, 2018 13:39:46 GMT 1
That's internal police procedure. Not criminal sanctions. Criminal sanctions remain a possibility. Is that why coppers who are caught doing something wrong are invariably allowed to take early retirement before any action can be brought? |
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Post by iangreaves on Jun 29, 2018 13:43:29 GMT 1
just one bloke.. grenfell might go the same way as the low ranking(in terms of organisation and tactical rules) fire officer might find out.. the people with the power to order and organise this size of cover up?? still out there making the rules and covering their backs as we speak.. we might learn something from an incident, we don't learn to deal with the aftermaths and we rarely if ever get justice.. The Government stooges running the Grenfell Inquiry are going out of their way to try to pin the blame on the firefighters. Bloody disgraceful. |
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Post by dewsburyterrier on Jun 29, 2018 14:14:33 GMT 1
just one bloke.. grenfell might go the same way as the low ranking(in terms of organisation and tactical rules) fire officer might find out.. the people with the power to order and organise this size of cover up?? still out there making the rules and covering their backs as we speak.. we might learn something from an incident, we don't learn to deal with the aftermaths and we rarely if ever get justice.. The Government stooges running the Grenfell Inquiry are going out of their way to try to pin the blame on the firefighters. Bloody disgraceful. I don't think they are being made scapegoats; I think it is right that the fire service bring evidence to an enquiry about a major fire. I am sure individual fire officers acted as instructed and as well as they could with any training that could be given for such a, hopefully, one off event. |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jun 29, 2018 14:23:21 GMT 1
That's internal police procedure. Not criminal sanctions. Criminal sanctions remain a possibility. Is that why coppers who are caught doing something wrong are invariably allowed to take early retirement before any action can be brought? the double jeopardy of being totally exonhorated in criminal court and then disciplined under what is really a 'kangaroo' internal court has led many officers to retire in between being found not guilty and the fairly obvious guilty verdict of the discipline hearing.. The Police is probably the only body that is 'monitored' and encouraged to discipline particular numbers of its own workforce.. The politicians have members who are actively warning other members re their behaviour etc long before the 'enquiry' so they can desist or cover themselves. you can't retire from criminal proceedings.. or avoid them, no coppers are Tony Blair... |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jun 29, 2018 14:27:21 GMT 1
The Government stooges running the Grenfell Inquiry are going out of their way to try to pin the blame on the firefighters. Bloody disgraceful. I don't think they are being made scapegoats; I think it is right that the fire service bring evidence to an enquiry about a major fire. I am sure individual fire officers acted as instructed and as well as they could with any training that could be given for such a, hopefully, one off event. he was asked questions and at length and in depth that he could not give answers to..this was reported as he 'didnt know' only, not that he would not have known or been aware of.. huge difference.. the questioning was allowed and continued and the fire brigade union are fucking livid.. maybe put all witnesses in parliament where they can answer the questions truthfully without putting themselves in the shit and make informed 'assumptions or even allegations' without being sued?? |
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Post by dewsburyterrier on Jun 29, 2018 14:39:33 GMT 1
I don't think they are being made scapegoats; I think it is right that the fire service bring evidence to an enquiry about a major fire. I am sure individual fire officers acted as instructed and as well as they could with any training that could be given for such a, hopefully, one off event. he was asked questions and at length and in depth that he could not give answers to..this was reported as he 'didnt know' only, not that he would not have known or been aware of.. huge difference.. the questioning was allowed and continued and the fire brigade union are fucking livid.. maybe put all witnesses in parliament where they can answer the questions truthfully without putting themselves in the shit and make informed 'assumptions or even allegations' without being sued?? I agree that the evidence could have been gathered from the fire officer in a way that wouldn't have looked like he was on trial. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 15:38:56 GMT 1
he was asked questions and at length and in depth that he could not give answers to..this was reported as he 'didnt know' only, not that he would not have known or been aware of.. huge difference.. the questioning was allowed and continued and the fire brigade union are fucking livid.. maybe put all witnesses in parliament where they can answer the questions truthfully without putting themselves in the shit and make informed 'assumptions or even allegations' without being sued?? I agree that the evidence could have been gathered from the fire officer in a way that wouldn't have looked like he was on trial. So, what is the difference between aHillsborough and Grenfell? One lets em in, one keeps em in. People sadly perish. Police get blamed for Hillsborough. Nuff said. |
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Post by Manx Terrier on Jun 29, 2018 15:46:12 GMT 1
just one bloke.. grenfell might go the same way as the low ranking(in terms of organisation and tactical rules) fire officer might find out.. the people with the power to order and organise this size of cover up?? still out there making the rules and covering their backs as we speak.. we might learn something from an incident, we don't learn to deal with the aftermaths and we rarely if ever get justice.. The Government stooges running the Grenfell Inquiry are going out of their way to try to pin the blame on the firefighters. Bloody disgraceful. It is unlikely I think that the Chairman would permit unfair questioning as he is an experienced Judge. The union may not like it but so what. |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jun 29, 2018 15:51:21 GMT 1
The Government stooges running the Grenfell Inquiry are going out of their way to try to pin the blame on the firefighters. Bloody disgraceful. It is unlikely I think that the Chairman would permit unfair questioning as he is an experienced Judge. The union may not like it but so what. 4 hours of the questions were so far above his pay grade it was a fucking disgrace.. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 15:55:36 GMT 1
It is unlikely I think that the Chairman would permit unfair questioning as he is an experienced Judge. The union may not like it but so what. 4 hours of the questions were so far above his pay grade it was a fucking disgrace.. What’s it got to do with his pay grade? I’ve known cops to be in the box for hours longer than that and they’ve been on the lowest pay scale. |
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jun 29, 2018 16:01:14 GMT 1
4 hours of the questions were so far above his pay grade it was a fucking disgrace.. What’s it got to do with his pay grade? I’ve known cops to be in the box for hours longer than that and they’ve been on the lowest pay scale. I was in the box for a day and a half once.. they asked me questions about the 'incident' and about my training and experience...granted they asked the same questions in about 20 different ways but thats courts for you.. this bloke was questioned about policies for hours, he did not make the policies, he could not know what was going on in command rooms elsewhere. he was on scene etc etc etc.. it goes on and on.. if and when they get 'policy makers' into the box, we might get somewhere, if they question those running command rooms and cross examine the joint officers in charge it might be a fucking help.. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 16:10:32 GMT 1
What’s it got to do with his pay grade? I’ve known cops to be in the box for hours longer than that and they’ve been on the lowest pay scale. I was in the box for a day and a half once.. they asked me questions about the 'incident' and about my training and experience...granted they asked the same questions in about 20 different ways but thats courts for you.. this bloke was questioned about policies for hours, he did not make the policies, he could not know what was going on in command rooms elsewhere. he was on scene etc etc etc.. it goes on and on.. if and when they get 'policy makers' into the box, we might get somewhere, if they question those running command rooms and cross examine the joint officers in charge it might be a fucking help.. Galph ..... I’ve been in the box many many times. I’m not saying it’s a good system. What I want to say is Hillsborough and Grenfell we’re tragic but no one set out on those respective mornings rubbing their hands thinking ' it’ll be good to kill a few people today'. It’s about procedures not prosecutions. |
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Post by goodbet on Jun 29, 2018 16:39:08 GMT 1
I was in the box for a day and a half once.. they asked me questions about the 'incident' and about my training and experience...granted they asked the same questions in about 20 different ways but thats courts for you.. this bloke was questioned about policies for hours, he did not make the policies, he could not know what was going on in command rooms elsewhere. he was on scene etc etc etc.. it goes on and on.. if and when they get 'policy makers' into the box, we might get somewhere, if they question those running command rooms and cross examine the joint officers in charge it might be a fucking help.. Galph ..... I’ve been in the box many many times. I’m not saying it’s a good system. What I want to say is Hillsborough and Grenfell we’re tragic but no one set out on those respective mornings rubbing their hands thinking ' it’ll be good to kill a few people today'. It’s about procedures not prosecutions. Was this the procedure to get junior officers to change their testimonies or the procedures to start blaming the injured. Who led the Sun in to printing the drivel they spouted, was that a procedure. I agree that no one set out on those respective mornings rubbing their hands thinking ' it’ll be good to kill a few people today'. I think that it is clear that what followed was a different procedure to what should have taken place. Many people have responsible jobs where decisions made in the heat of the moment could lead to prosecution at a later date. No one should be exempt from this. We all know that this is has been delayed until the accused are well past retirement age and will possibly deemed too ill to stand trial or failing that will probability be too ill to serve a sentence. It seems to be the very British way that the establishment protects its own. |
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Post by iangreaves on Jun 29, 2018 16:50:03 GMT 1
What’s it got to do with his pay grade? I’ve known cops to be in the box for hours longer than that and they’ve been on the lowest pay scale. I was in the box for a day and a half once.. they asked me questions about the 'incident' and about my training and experience...granted they asked the same questions in about 20 different ways but thats courts for you.. this bloke was questioned about policies for hours, he did not make the policies, he could not know what was going on in command rooms elsewhere. he was on scene etc etc etc.. it goes on and on.. if and when they get 'policy makers' into the box, we might get somewhere, if they question those running command rooms and cross examine the joint officers in charge it might be a fucking help.. The politicians and the billionaires they are working for - the people who knowingly allowed flammable cladding to be put on those buildings because the people living there were deemed to be of no value - will never be held accountable. It was obviously the fault of the bloody firemen who ran into the blazing building to save lives regardless of the death trap created by those who will walk away without punishment. And for those who reckon the bloke in charge of the inquiry will be OK because he's a judge - bollocks. The judges mix in the same bloody circles as the politicians. How many judge-led inquiries have we seen that have been there simply to sweep everything under the carpet. |
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