midlander
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Post by midlander on May 31, 2019 14:22:43 GMT 1
Only had time to do this old school with pen and paper, but compared our 4 full-backs performances across the season and then ranked them in each category. Obviously the data is only basic available data, but thought I'd share the results:
All data is per 90 mins. Smith played equivalent of 12.69 games, Haderjonaj 20.44, Durm 22.8 and Löwe 22.84. Löwe's had the advantage in certain categories of playing further forward and being on set pieces.
Shots on target. Best CL Worst ED and TS
Creating chances. Best FH. Worst ED and TS
Passes. Most TS. Least ED
Pass completion. Best CL. Worst ED
Forward passes. Best TS. Worst FH
Touches. Most ED. Least FH
Crosses. Most CL. Least TS
Dispossessed. Best FH. Worst ED
Defensive blocks. Most FH. Least CL
Interceptions. most ED. Least CL
Tackles made. Most TS. Least FH
tackles won. Most TS. Least CL
Clearances. Most CL. Least FH
Headers won. Most CL. Least ED
Fouls. Least FH. Most TS
Distance covered. Most ED. Least CL
If you then average each player's ranking within the group for each category, Chris Löwe is clearly the better of the four. Erik Durm the worst. Smith slightly higher than Flo. The tackling stats are no surprise with Flo but he was equally less likely to give the ball away or make fouls than the others as well as blocking more often. Tommy Smith making more forward passes than the other three dispels the theory that he only ever receives, turns and plays backwards.
Löwe had long been my favourite Town player and will obviously be a big loss. Durm less so.
Obviously need a new LB now with Brown to push and probably a new right back, although that may have to wait until Flo gets his big Serie A move.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 14:35:15 GMT 1
So safe to say, when most said Erik Durm is shite and highly over rated, they were right.
Awful player and Flo is equally, probably worse, as shit
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Post by CaptainHart on May 31, 2019 14:47:42 GMT 1
Skewed by FH, ED and CL playing in midfield at times. At West Ham and Palace CL and ED switched between fullback and midfield during the game.
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Post by VLP Fan Club on May 31, 2019 14:57:40 GMT 1
Time for a new start in the left back birth, Smith can start for me next season with a young apprentice such as Demeaco Duhaney as his back up.
The left back appointment is a big one.
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midlander
David Wagner Terrier
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Post by midlander on May 31, 2019 14:59:03 GMT 1
Skewed by FH, ED and CL playing in midfield at times. At West Ham and Palace CL and ED switched between fullback and midfield during the game. I know mate. Referenced that a little in my post. Only basic data but gives a feel for the overall performance. |
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crux
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Post by crux on May 31, 2019 15:44:25 GMT 1
Time for a new start in the left back birth, Smith can start for me next season with a young apprentice such as Demeaco Duhaney as his back up. The left back appointment is a big one. As you can see with Liverpool, if we play 4-3-3 then the fullbacks are the most important positions. Without pace and stamina in those positions the formation doesn't work very well. I suspect Duhaney will be first choice at right back, if not straight away then pretty soon into the season. I see Smith as being cover for the right side of defense - Centre half, right of a back 3 and right back. I agree that a new left back could be the important signing of the season. |
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Post by Dillinger on May 31, 2019 15:57:07 GMT 1
Time for a new start in the left back birth, Smith can start for me next season with a young apprentice such as Demeaco Duhaney as his back up. The left back appointment is a big one. As you can see with Liverpool, if we play 4-3-3 then the fullbacks are the most important positions. Without pace and stamina in those positions the formation doesn't work very well. I suspect Duhaney will be first choice at right back, if not straight away then pretty soon into the season. I see Smith as being cover for the right side of defense - Centre half, right of a back 3 and right back. I agree that a new left back could be the important signing of the season. Spot on, if your full backs aren't able to work the line then it means that the three have to spread across the width of the pitch, this makes it very easy for the defensive team to isolate men 3 on 1, no contest. Interestingly, the full back has now become pretty much the most important position on the pitch, because so many modern formations (4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 being examples) don't work without the full backs. |
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on May 31, 2019 16:10:26 GMT 1
Supports what my eyes were seeing then. I've had many an argument about Durm being useless
Defensively he was ok but on the ball and going forward he was generally clueless. Some of the decisions and mistakes he made were bizarre for a 'World Cup Winner'
He'll be very lucky if he gets in a club in one of the top division of Germany or England
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Post by hartyhtfc on May 31, 2019 16:21:03 GMT 1
Think it was mentioned somewhere else but our youth recruitment also hints towards the importance we see in the full back positions, with young, talented recruits in these areas.
Luton did similar and went on to produce James Justin, who will become a huge name in the EFL and even Premier League - no reason we can't do the same with the right coaching and use of that position
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on May 31, 2019 16:28:11 GMT 1
Think it was mentioned somewhere else but our youth recruitment also hints towards the importance we see in the full back positions, with young, talented recruits in these areas. Luton did similar and went on to produce James Justin, who will become a huge name in the EFL and even Premier League - no reason we can't do the same with the right coaching and use of that position What you're seeing now is players who would have dropped out of the game or in to the lower leagues as average wingers being moulded into quality full backs/wing backs Wan Bisaka being a perfect example |
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Post by CaptainHart on May 31, 2019 17:14:31 GMT 1
Time for a new start in the left back birth, Smith can start for me next season with a young apprentice such as Demeaco Duhaney as his back up. The left back appointment is a big one. As you can see with Liverpool, if we play 4-3-3 then the fullbacks are the most important positions. Without pace and stamina in those positions the formation doesn't work very well. I suspect Duhaney will be first choice at right back, if not straight away then pretty soon into the season. I see Smith as being cover for the right side of defense - Centre half, right of a back 3 and right back. I agree that a new left back could be the important signing of the season. Particularly given that since Pritchard was brought back into the side we've played a lopsided 4-3-3 à la Chelsea where he's more of an inside left than a wide man. If we're going to continue with it we'd need to bring in a left back with the right qualities. |
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Post by otium (EPBS) on May 31, 2019 19:24:09 GMT 1
The fact that Lowe (by many peoples estimation) was our best full-back of four tells a tale...we are/were nowhere near.
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Post by impact on May 31, 2019 21:46:26 GMT 1
Those stats show nearly nothing for full backs. It is amazing how people thinking a certain player is good or bad have managed to use them to prove their argument though.
None of the 4 are "awful". Typical hyperbole of football fans.
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Post by impact on May 31, 2019 21:48:57 GMT 1
Think it was mentioned somewhere else but our youth recruitment also hints towards the importance we see in the full back positions, with young, talented recruits in these areas. Luton did similar and went on to produce James Justin, who will become a huge name in the EFL and even Premier League - no reason we can't do the same with the right coaching and use of that position What you're seeing now is players who would have dropped out of the game or in to the lower leagues as average wingers being moulded into quality full backs/wing backs Wan Bisaka being a perfect example 21 year old Wan-Bissaka who never dropped out of the game or played lower league football? And who has played his whole senior career at full back? |
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on May 31, 2019 22:11:50 GMT 1
What you're seeing now is players who would have dropped out of the game or in to the lower leagues as average wingers being moulded into quality full backs/wing backs Wan Bisaka being a perfect example 21 year old Wan-Bissaka who never dropped out of the game or played lower league football? And who has played his whole senior career at full back? He wasn't making any waves until they tried him at full back 2 years ago and now he's seen as one of the best young players in the World Wouldn't have made it at Palace if they had just stuck with him as a winger www.skysports.com/football/news/29210/11474638/the-rise-of-aaron-wan-bissaka-from-crystal-palace-youth-forward-to-premier-league-right-back |
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Post by impact on May 31, 2019 22:31:30 GMT 1
Probably not. But he sure isn't a perfect example of a player dropping out of the game or down the leagues before reinventing themself as a full back. |
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on May 31, 2019 22:48:22 GMT 1
Probably not. But he sure isn't a perfect example of a player dropping out of the game or down the leagues before reinventing themself as a full back. Read my post again He 'would' have dropped down at least a division if he hadn't have been converted Full backs now have to be quick and able to get up and down. Black wingers generally have that athleticism and can be taught the defensive side if done early enough. VLP could have made an excellent modern day full back. He's fast, good on the ball, aggressive in the tackle when he wants to be. Would be clueless positionally but not if someone had got hold of him at 19/20 and coached him well which is what you're now seeing happen more often |
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Post by impact on May 31, 2019 23:24:01 GMT 1
Probably not. But he sure isn't a perfect example of a player dropping out of the game or down the leagues before reinventing themself as a full back. Read my post again He 'would' have dropped down at least a division if he hadn't have been converted Full backs now have to be quick and able to get up and down. Black wingers generally have that athleticism and can be taught the defensive side if done early enough. VLP could have made an excellent modern day full back. He's fast, good on the ball, aggressive in the tackle when he wants to be. Would be clueless positionally but not if someone had got hold of him at 19/20 and coached him well which is what you're now seeing happen more often I missed the would. But I don't quite get the point with it in. Lots of players change positions in youth teams, or even later, when coaches spot a particular quality in them. Neville was a centre half, Azpilicueta a forward, Bale went from full back to winger, albeit later, Erik Durm was a striker, Gareth Barry a wide player. Later in their careers Kompany was a centre mid, Mascherano changed to centre half, Ramos was a full back. The role of the full back depends on the system they're playing in. I certainly don't see VLP ever being a full back - coached he'd into it at an early age or not. He's a flair player who takes risks, not qualities you want in a full back. Our own right back came from centre half and was great for us in the promotion season because he was coached how to attack, having already understood the defensive side. I'm certainly not convinced by saying black players would suit it more. That's major stereotyping, particularly when the best full back in the English leagues, Robertson, is as white as they come. |
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midlander
David Wagner Terrier
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Post by midlander on May 31, 2019 23:59:52 GMT 1
Those stats show nearly nothing for full backs. It is amazing how people thinking a certain player is good or bad have managed to use them to prove their argument though. None of the 4 are "awful". Typical hyperbole of football fans. Quite the opposite. They do show things to back up certain arguments but also dispel certain common myths. Smith doesn't always turn backwards, infact quite the opposite. Flo does some things very well as opposed to common theory now that he is just 'shit' Durm runs a lot, but lacks quality with the ball. Can never use generic stats like this in isolation as nobody knows what instructions/roles players have been given by the coach in games. There is far more valuable data out there which a lot of the analytics people on Twitter use but I ain't got the time nor money to subscribe to wyscout or the like. |
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Post by impact on Jun 1, 2019 0:19:23 GMT 1
Those stats show nearly nothing for full backs. It is amazing how people thinking a certain player is good or bad have managed to use them to prove their argument though. None of the 4 are "awful". Typical hyperbole of football fans. Quite the opposite. They do show things to back up certain arguments but also dispel certain common myths. Smith doesn't always turn backwards, infact quite the opposite. Flo does some things very well as opposed to common theory now that he is just 'shit' Durm runs a lot, but lacks quality with the ball. Can never use generic stats like this in isolation as nobody knows what instructions/roles players have been given by the coach in games. There is far more valuable data out there which a lot of the analytics people on Twitter use but I ain't got the time nor money to subscribe to wyscout or the like. Interceptions, tackle win rate, crossing accuracy, maybe chances created and distance covered I can see being of some use. The rest have little relevance for full backs IMO. Certainly crosses without saying how many found their target is pointless. But even so, they don't really paint much of a picture at all for defenders. One of the league 1 players pointed out the issue with some centre half aerial dominance stats the other day, in that with teams who rely on set pieces, their players' stats will be lower. He pointed out that defensive headers are easier and therefore those who just defend will have higher aerial stats, even if they aren't more dominant. |
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Post by lochnessterrier on Jun 1, 2019 7:35:37 GMT 1
Once upon a time we were famous for producing quality full backs...
Ray Wilson
Bob McNab
Derek Parkin
Chris Cattlin
Mally Brown
Simon Charlton
Those were the days....
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midlander
David Wagner Terrier
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Post by midlander on Jun 1, 2019 9:59:01 GMT 1
Quite the opposite. They do show things to back up certain arguments but also dispel certain common myths. Smith doesn't always turn backwards, infact quite the opposite. Flo does some things very well as opposed to common theory now that he is just 'shit' Durm runs a lot, but lacks quality with the ball. Can never use generic stats like this in isolation as nobody knows what instructions/roles players have been given by the coach in games. There is far more valuable data out there which a lot of the analytics people on Twitter use but I ain't got the time nor money to subscribe to wyscout or the like. Interceptions, tackle win rate, crossing accuracy, maybe chances created and distance covered I can see being of some use. The rest have little relevance for full backs IMO. Certainly crosses without saying how many found their target is pointless. But even so, they don't really paint much of a picture at all for defenders. One of the league 1 players pointed out the issue with some centre half aerial dominance stats the other day, in that with teams who rely on set pieces, their players' stats will be lower. He pointed out that defensive headers are easier and therefore those who just defend will have higher aerial stats, even if they aren't more dominant. I totally agree. But that type of data needs time and money to access. Mine was only a basic comparison of the four, nothing more. |
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