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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 10:23:44 GMT 1
Potentially the worse-timed thread creation in light of the current situation, however I was wondering if it would be possible to have a level headed, non-sensationalistic discussion about the club's income and expenditure and general finances since Shindler slotted that penalty in up to the current day. I'm hoping some people can shed light and explain our economic standing as I must admit I'm not sure where all the money is or isn't, what we have spent, what we have left, what Deano's owed, or what he's been paid. Is it even known outside the boardroom? Conspiracy theories welcome as long as an effort is made to substantiate them! No agenda here, just hoping to get informed. Income: 2017/18 Premier League payment to club: £102,391,564¹ 2018/19 Premier League payment to club: £96,625,865₂ 2019/20 Premier League parachute and consolidation payment: £42,600,000³ 2017/18 commercial income: £7,446,514m 2018/19 commercial income: ?? 2017/18 matchday income: £4,822,192 2018/19 matchday income: ?? 2017/18 retail income: £2,102,282 2018/19 retail income: ?? 2017/18 other income (Canalside, communications, development association): £1,015,427 2018/19 other income: ?? 2017/18 transfer fees income: Nahki Wells (£4.6m) | Kyle Dempsey (£400k) [£5m⁴] 2018/19 transfer fees income: Tom Ince (10.08m) | Joe Lolley (£600k?) | Ramadan Sobhi (£720k) | Michael Hefele (£297k) | Scott Malone (?) | Smithies sell on (?) [>£11.697m⁵] 2019/20 transfer fees income: Aaron Mooy (?) | Phillip Billing (£14.85m) | Zanka (£1.8m) | Tommy Smith (£4.01m) | Chris Löwe (?) | Ramadan Sobhi (£675k) [>£21.33m⁶] Outgoings: 2017/18 wage bill: £62,613,144 2018/19 wage bill: £62m(?) 2019/20 wage bill: £35m(?) 2016/17 promotion bonus: ?? 2017/18 survival bonus: Accounted for Stadium improvements to get up to Premier League regulations: ?? 2017/18 stadium rent bill: £1m 2018/19 stadium rent bill: £1m 2019/20 stadium rent bill: £1m 2017/18 transfer fees paid: Steve Mounié (£11.70m) | Alex Pritchard (£11.12m) | Aaron Mooy (£8.19m) | Tom Ince (£8.19m) | Scott Malone (£3.51m) | Laurent Depoitre (£3.42m) | Zanka (£2.43m) | Abdelhamid Sabiri (£1.35m) | Elias Kachunga (£1.17m) [£51.08m⁷] 2018/19 transfer fees paid: Terence Kongolo (£18.00m) | Adama Diakhaby (£9.00m) | Ramadan Sobhi (£5.85m) | Florent Hadergjonaj (£4.50m)| Juninho Bacuna (£2.25m) | Isaac Mbenza (£2.25m) | Jonas Lössl (£2.25m) | Karlan Grant (£1.53m) [£45.63m⁸] 2019/20 transfer fees paid: Isaac Mbenza (£11.25m) | Herbert Bockhorn (£225k) | Josh Koroma (?) [>£11.48m⁹] Feel free to fill in the blanks and add anything that should be here that isn't. If the sum of your non-contribution is to be a not very witty one liner, unrelated to the content being discussed and merely to suppress your unsatiated desire for attention, you can skip this one and just post in the thread below. ¹,²: premierleague.com ³: Wikipedia ⁴,⁵,⁶,⁷,⁸,⁹: transfermarkt.co.uk
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Post by impact on Aug 14, 2019 10:35:39 GMT 1
From club accounts
17/18 Wages 62m (we were told similar if not slightly higher for 18/19, will include survival bonuses) Commercial 7.5m TV & League income 110m Stadium and shop rent 1m Transfers in 58.6m Sales 3m (I think this excludes a 1.5m writedown on players but I'm not sure, an accountant can confirm)
16/17 Cost of promotion 11.9m - not sure if this included the players' bonuses which were thought to be c8-9m and will be included in the wage bill (of 21.7m)
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Post by royrace on Aug 14, 2019 10:42:04 GMT 1
Great thread, this has been fascinating me for a while. I think the wage bill data is out there somewhere but I don't know where and don't have time to look.
Phil said the money had all been spent which leads me to conclude the wage bill was > 50M in both seasons since we 'only' spent net £45M and £34M on transfers in each PL season. As we know last summers transfer business did the damage and when you look at the net spend I don't know whether to be relieved we didn't spend more (on crap players) or thinking we should have been more ambitious (£34M net spend for a PL club with a weak squad seems very low and asking for trouble?).
Id say the timing of this thread is bang on personally.
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Post by impact on Aug 14, 2019 10:46:52 GMT 1
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Post by dugnet on Aug 14, 2019 10:47:07 GMT 1
This is important but, the decisions on how the revenue is spent is as much of an issue eg Someone thought the purchase of Sohbi was a good decision, someone thought Mbenza was worth what we paid for him etc....
I would contend that having people with an idea of how to get the best value for what is available, to a clear strategy, is equally important. Since Webber left our overall plan has been, and proven to be, inadequate. It makes you wonder why Moss didn't work out?
At the moment those currently in charge haven't really shown that they have the adeptness for decisions on how we develop on the pitch.
Sorry it's a bit negative but the evidence points it to also being accurate.
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Post by royrace on Aug 14, 2019 10:49:03 GMT 1
My worry is the plan is to use a combination of the parachute payments and player sales to effectively prop up the club for the next ten years or so which would basically mean we are right back to where we started (or worse). Some may think that's a sensible course of action. The other niggling worry is the takeover and how it was financed, the obvious question is are player sales revenue and/or parachute payments going to be used to buy the club from Dean either directly or indirectly, if not did Phil already have the cash (~£60M?) or has it been borrowed? Probably stupid questions to be fair.
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Post by The King's Head 1230 on Aug 14, 2019 10:58:08 GMT 1
Wages & transfers aside it looks like Dean has taken back approx 60m & approx 3m for the Phil H to walk away from Southport debt free. Leaving us with some expensive players that can't score or cross a ball. 3 players that need a move to sustain or better their careers. Some young ones that need coaching & guidance. And a little bit under the carpet for Phil to live the life of a Championship Chairman for 10 Months.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 11:05:25 GMT 1
My worry is the plan is to use a combination of the parachute payments and player sales to effectively prop up the club for the next ten years or so which would basically mean we are right back to where we started (or worse). Some may think that's a sensible course of action. The other niggling worry is the takeover and how it was financed, the obvious question is are player sales revenue and/or parachute payments going to be used to buy the club from Dean either directly or indirectly, if not did Phil already have the cash (~£60M?) or has it been borrowed? Probably stupid questions to be fair. The financing of the change of ownership is the most interesting thing to me. Do we as fans have a right to know the particulars of the deal? Deano apparently quipped that nobody knows how much money he or PH has got, but that seemed a bit of a red herring to me, more important and what I feel we're entitled to is some basic information about the selling of the club and what it means going forward. It may have gone someway towards setting realistic expectations for our post-PL future.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 11:07:38 GMT 1
Wages & transfers aside it looks like Dean has taken back approx 60m & approx 3m for the Phil H to walk away from Southport debt free. Leaving us with some expensive players that can't score or cross a ball. 3 players that need a move to sustain or better their careers. Some young ones that need coaching & guidance. And a little bit under the carpet for Phil to live the life of a Championship Chairman for 10 Months. Was there £60m in the club for Dean to take back? If not, has PH leveraged the buyout? Is the debt with him or us (stupid question I guess). My theory, based on no information whatsoever, is that Dean sold his 75% for £1 + £50m odd paid back over 5-10 years... Again, based on nothing.
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Post by impact on Aug 14, 2019 11:12:57 GMT 1
Wages & transfers aside it looks like Dean has taken back approx 60m & approx 3m for the Phil H to walk away from Southport debt free. Leaving us with some expensive players that can't score or cross a ball. 3 players that need a move to sustain or better their careers. Some young ones that need coaching & guidance. And a little bit under the carpet for Phil to live the life of a Championship Chairman for 10 Months. It was £50m at the end of 17/18 and if that year was anything to go by, Dean will have put nothing (net) into the club last year. Likely to be an injection and withdrawal of the same amount to cover the gap between spending money and getting tv/league money in. Short version: That 60m should be 50m.
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Post by dugnet on Aug 14, 2019 12:04:39 GMT 1
My worry is the plan is to use a combination of the parachute payments and player sales to effectively prop up the club for the next ten years or so which would basically mean we are right back to where we started (or worse). Some may think that's a sensible course of action. The other niggling worry is the takeover and how it was financed, the obvious question is are player sales revenue and/or parachute payments going to be used to buy the club from Dean either directly or indirectly, if not did Phil already have the cash (~£60M?) or has it been borrowed? Probably stupid questions to be fair. This is the elephant in the room. It was always clear that DH has said the club needed to be self supporting, it would appear that the cash from the Premier League will be used to essentially do this (at best). At the moment I think many would have preferred that DH had sold, got his money and we had a new owner. It may have presented different problems and certainly may not have been successful, although equally it may have been, but at least it would be clear. At the moment we are all puzzled about the money, direction of travel and what to really expect. I am afraid simply saying the "Premier League money has gone" doesn't really address the concerns or, potential, misunderstandings the fans have. DH was always pretty transparent, people are now guessing and surmising. This is resulting in the fans being even more frustrated and disappointed. The fact is that where we are there is no quick fix, but I would be happy if I saw action that suggested that a fix was being sought. Given that the Town brand, without Premier League status is probably worth a little more than when we were last in the Championship (the time to sell was at the end of Premier League season 1 when the value would have been considerably higher - but that opportunity has long gone) we need a credible plan for the club and revenue we have. The first action that needs to be addressed is the coach. Firstly: Is he good enough (my view at this moment and in the situation we are in he is not - and we can't wait for him to improve)? If not we need to take action and get a credible alternative. Having just left the Premier League we should be able to attract a decent candidate, although as Stoke has proved it is far from straight forward. Experimenting with wholly unproven novice coaches is not always going to work. When DW came in he may have not had the experience at this level but his overall footballing pedigree, and maturity where significantly more impressive that our current coach. The next action, if a new coach is indeed appointed is to have a credible recruitment strategy. This would involve reviewing the current squad and determining who can ultimately go and the type of player we need to attract and at the right price. Since Webber left we have lost sight of this simple policy. As a result we do indeed need to transition, and it may take another 2 windows (had PH been a little more candid about our situation he would have gained more credibility) to achieve. Currently the first of the 3 windows that PH referred isn't filling people with confidence that the strategy is clear or likely to work. The incoming DOF may well address this, I hope he is a strong character with a plan ie "If our budget is x we can do Y, however if it is Z we have to do W". The final action is to get back to being open with the fans, admit the errors and give us a clear strategy for where the club is expected to be in a year, 3 years, 5 years. We may not welcome the message initially but if it is clear and credible then we will appreciate the honesty and know what to expect. What is really depressing is that none of the above seems in any way unreasonable or too difficult. If a chump like me can put together a simple strategy why can't successful people on significant salaries do the same? Hoping for the best - not sure what to expect though.
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Post by ritchie on Aug 14, 2019 12:09:02 GMT 1
Does anyone know if we get the usual championship TV money (was a few million when we went up, so should be more this year?) on top of parachute money?
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on Aug 14, 2019 12:19:50 GMT 1
Does anyone know if we get the usual championship TV money (was a few million when we went up, so should be more this year?) on top of parachute money? No we don't unfortunately
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Post by Up the Duff. on Aug 14, 2019 12:21:07 GMT 1
This is important but, the decisions on how the revenue is spent is as much of an issue eg Someone thought the purchase of Sohbi was a good decision, someone thought Mbenza was worth what we paid for him etc.... I would contend that having people with an idea of how to get the best value for what is available, to a clear strategy, is equally important. Since Webber left our overall plan has been, and proven to be, inadequate. It makes you wonder why Moss didn't work out? At the moment those currently in charge haven't really shown that they have the adeptness for decisions on how we develop on the pitch. Sorry it's a bit negative but the evidence points it to also being accurate. We desperately need to look at our transfer and scouting structure and invest as necessary.
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Post by workshyfop on Aug 14, 2019 12:26:47 GMT 1
I was under the impression that the parachute money and cutting of wages was to safeguard the future of the club and transfer fees received were to be ploughed back in. I think a lot of people must have thought along these lines considering the excellent uptake on season tickets. it's now apparent that this isn't the case, so it's increased the anger and frustration that we are struggling to compete at a time we should have (on paper) a financial advantage in the division and a lot of fans probably feel let down or misled.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Aug 14, 2019 12:28:28 GMT 1
I was under the impression that the parachute money and cutting of wages was to safeguard the future of the club and transfer fees received were to be ploughed back in. I think a lot of people must have thought along these lines considering the excellent uptake on season tickets. it's now apparent that this isn't the case, so it's increased the anger and frustration that we are struggling to compete at a time we should have (on paper) a financial advantage in the division and a lot of fans probably feel let down or misled. I've stated before, there is no way in hell we would have sold the number of season tickets we have if the fans had known what the hell was going to happen.
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Post by Up the Duff. on Aug 14, 2019 12:28:53 GMT 1
Potentially the worse-timed thread creation in light of the current situation, however I was wondering if it would be possible to have a level headed, non-sensationalistic discussion about the club's income and expenditure and general finances since Shindler slotted that penalty in up to the current day. I'm hoping some people can shed light and explain our economic standing as I must admit I'm not sure where all the money is or isn't, what we have spent, what we have left, what Deano's owed, or what he's been paid. Is it even known outside the boardroom? Conspiracy theories welcome as long as an effort is made to substantiate them! No agenda here, just hoping to get informed. Income: 2017/18 Premier League payment to club: £102,391,564¹ 2018/19 Premier League payment to club: £96,625,865₂ 2019/20 Premier League parachute and consolidation payment: £42,600,000³ 2017/18 commercial income: £7.5m 2018/19 commercial income: ?? 2017/18 transfer fees income: Nahki Wells (£4.6m) | Kyle Dempsey (£400k) [£5m⁴] 2018/19 transfer fees income: Tom Ince (10.08m) | Joe Lolley (£600k?) | Ramadan Sobhi (£720k) | Michael Hefele (£297k) | Scott Malone (?) [>£11.697m⁵] 2019/20 transfer fees income: Aaron Mooy (?) | Phillip Billing (£14.85m) | Zanka (£1.8m) | Tommy Smith (£4.01m) | Chris Löwe (?) | Ramadan Sobhi (£675k) [>£21.33m⁶] Outgoings: 2017/18 wage bill: £62m 2018/19 wage bill: £62m 2019/20 wage bill: ?? 2016/17 promotion bonus: ?? 2017/18 survival bonus: Accounted for Stadium improvements to get up to Premier League regulations: ?? 2017/18 stadium rent bill: £1m 2018/19 stadium rent bill: £1m 2019/20 stadium rent bill: £1m 2017/18 transfer fees paid: Steve Mounié (£11.70m) | Alex Pritchard (£11.12m) | Aaron Mooy (£8.19m) | Tom Ince (£8.19m) | Scott Malone (£3.51m) | Laurent Depoitre (£3.42m) | Zanka (£2.43m) | Abdelhamid Sabiri (£1.35m) | Elias Kachunga (£1.17m) [£51.08m⁷] 2018/19 transfer fees paid: Terence Kongolo (£18.00m) | Adama Diakhaby (£9.00m) | Ramadan Sobhi (£5.85m) | Florent Hadergjonaj (£4.50m)| Juninho Bacuna (£2.25m) | Isaac Mbenza (£2.25m) | Jonas Lössl (£2.25m) | Karlan Grant (£1.53m) [£45.63m⁸] 2019/20 transfer fees paid: Isaac Mbenza (£11.25m) | Herbert Bockhorn (£225k) | Josh Koroma (?) [>£11.48m⁹] Feel free to fill in the blanks and add anything that should be here that isn't. If the sum of your non-contribution is to be a not very witty one liner, unrelated to the content being discussed and merely to suppress your unsatiated desire for attention, you can skip this one and just post in the thread below. ¹,²: premierleague.com ³: Wikipedia ⁴,⁵,⁶,⁷,⁸,⁹: transfermarkt.co.uk I think lolley went for 750k. Malone 5m ?
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Post by ritchie on Aug 14, 2019 13:04:06 GMT 1
Smithies sell on fee?
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Post by alexdire on Aug 14, 2019 13:33:37 GMT 1
I was under the impression that the parachute money and cutting of wages was to safeguard the future of the club and transfer fees received were to be ploughed back in. I think a lot of people must have thought along these lines considering the excellent uptake on season tickets. it's now apparent that this isn't the case, so it's increased the anger and frustration that we are struggling to compete at a time we should have (on paper) a financial advantage in the division and a lot of fans probably feel let down or misled. That was under Dean Hoyle, £Xm will have gone or be going out of the club to repay Dean Hoyle's loans and or to purchase the club from Dean Hoyle. At the moment we are guessing at that figure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 13:48:39 GMT 1
How are agents fees accounted for? Are they just lumped in with the total transfer fee?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 13:57:56 GMT 1
How are agents fees accounted for? Are they just lumped in with the total transfer fee? They’re listed separately elsewhere but I don’t know if we’d simply see them as part of player trading in the accounts. For example Town paid more than £5m to agents Feb 2018 to Jan 2019 (guess it’s timed to coincide with transfer window). Some of that will be attributed to initial signing of players and we might see it reported as part of a “signed in a deal worth £12m” or similar type transfer (if we ever did actually announce a fee!). But additionally there are agents fees whenever players extend or change contracts etc...so we’ve recently paid out as part of Hoggs extension. Would that amount just anonymously find it’s way into the fees relating to player trading? (But separately reported as there is a governance requirement to report those fees). I’ve no idea....just guessing.
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deadleg
David Wagner Terrier
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Post by deadleg on Aug 14, 2019 15:05:34 GMT 1
What is really depressing is that none of the above seems in any way unreasonable or too difficult. If a chump like me can put together a simple strategy why can't successful people on significant salaries do the same? I've wondered the same on many occasions, it's not unusual at all for clubs to miss the clearly self-evident. It's not just us by any means, though we've really been doing well in that area lately. My best guess is that if you're in and around the place all the time and it's basically your whole life it can become hard to see the wood for the trees, let alone isolate and troubleshoot things in a complex operation. Obviously Dean is still very much involved but I wonder if his thoughts on various things might change now he has the room to take a slight step back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 15:15:23 GMT 1
I was under the impression that the parachute money and cutting of wages was to safeguard the future of the club and transfer fees received were to be ploughed back in. I think a lot of people must have thought along these lines considering the excellent uptake on season tickets. it's now apparent that this isn't the case, so it's increased the anger and frustration that we are struggling to compete at a time we should have (on paper) a financial advantage in the division and a lot of fans probably feel let down or misled. That was under Dean Hoyle, £Xm will have gone or be going out of the club to repay Dean Hoyle's loans and or to purchase the club from Dean Hoyle. At the moment we are guessing at that figure. People on here need to understand how limited companies work. PH cannot use HTAFC Ltd funds as a way to buy the club from DH.If he is not a salaried employee of the club, which I don't think he is, then his only 'take' would be in dividends on his 75% shareholding. DH would then get the same pence per share dividend on his 25%. The important point is that dividends can only be paid out of profits, which will be slim to none as long as we are outside the PL.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Aug 14, 2019 15:23:05 GMT 1
My worry is the plan is to use a combination of the parachute payments and player sales to effectively prop up the club for the next ten years or so which would basically mean we are right back to where we started (or worse). Some may think that's a sensible course of action. The other niggling worry is the takeover and how it was financed, the obvious question is are player sales revenue and/or parachute payments going to be used to buy the club from Dean either directly or indirectly, if not did Phil already have the cash (~£60M?) or has it been borrowed? Probably stupid questions to be fair. The financing of the change of ownership is the most interesting thing to me. Do we as fans have a right to know the particulars of the deal? Deano apparently quipped that nobody knows how much money he or PH has got, but that seemed a bit of a red herring to me, more important and what I feel we're entitled to is some basic information about the selling of the club and what it means going forward. It may have gone someway towards setting realistic expectations for our post-PL future. I don't think the club should be obliged to share too much detail with the supporters. The only exception to that opinion would be if there were some obvious signs that we were being asset stripped, the club run-down to slice the cream off the top for the owners & shareholders etc. You'd then see the groups formed as they were in the Ken Day era. But I've seen no obvious signs of that happening & it would be a bit daft to suggest that DH wasn't planning to leave this club in anything but a safe & secure state for the future. Just as the stars aligned for us 3 seasons ago, the opposite seems to be happening today, a series of events that are combining to create a pretty gloomy picture for many on here. I imagine that if we only had 1 of the 2 main things changing (DH stayed and a new Mgr, or DH left with David Wagner), things would have been a little different, but life ain't perfect... However, we're still only 2 league games in. My main worry about the team this season was whether they could shed the mindset in time for the new season. It appears that doing that has been a bit more difficult than I'd hoped it would be. I don't think we've a bad team, we just need this team to catch a break, get a couple of decent wins under their belts and get some belief back into their grey matter...
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Post by sandgrounder on Aug 14, 2019 15:24:17 GMT 1
Championship money is £7.5m per season...big drop.
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Post by Floyds on Aug 14, 2019 15:27:57 GMT 1
That was under Dean Hoyle, £Xm will have gone or be going out of the club to repay Dean Hoyle's loans and or to purchase the club from Dean Hoyle. At the moment we are guessing at that figure. People on here need to understand how limited companies work. PH cannot use HTAFC Ltd funds as a way to buy the club from DH.If he is not a salaried employee of the club, which I don't think he is, then his only 'take' would be in dividends on his 75% shareholding. DH would then get the same pence per share dividend on his 25%. The important point is that dividends can only be paid out of profits, which will be slim to none as long as we are outside the PL. More likely scenario is that PH could have "bought" the club for £1 and agreed when doing so that the Club would pay back DH loans, at say, £20m per year for three years. This would mean this year's parachute payment (as an example) has been banked and then the cash used to repay this debt. Obviously none of us will know until the accounts are published, which will be the accounts to 30th June 2020 due for filing on 31st March 2021. Given PH doesn't appear to have any real capital to speak of this type of deal would (to me) make sense.
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Post by runner76 on Aug 14, 2019 15:31:28 GMT 1
would we have all been happier had Dean sold to one of the suitors from abroad.....sounds like there were a few?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 15:32:28 GMT 1
People on here need to understand how limited companies work. PH cannot use HTAFC Ltd funds as a way to buy the club from DH.If he is not a salaried employee of the club, which I don't think he is, then his only 'take' would be in dividends on his 75% shareholding. DH would then get the same pence per share dividend on his 25%. The important point is that dividends can only be paid out of profits, which will be slim to none as long as we are outside the PL. More likely scenario is that PH could have "bought" the club for £1 and agreed when doing so that the Club would pay back DH loans, at say, £20m per year for three years. This would mean this year's parachute payment (as an example) has been banked and then the cash used to repay this debt. Obviously none of us will know until the accounts are published, which will be the accounts to 30th June 2020 due for filing on 31st March 2021. Given PH doesn't appear to have any real capital to speak of this type of deal would (to me) make sense. It would make no sense at all to DH though. Being paid with his own money? Leave it out.
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Post by Floyds on Aug 14, 2019 16:09:52 GMT 1
More likely scenario is that PH could have "bought" the club for £1 and agreed when doing so that the Club would pay back DH loans, at say, £20m per year for three years. This would mean this year's parachute payment (as an example) has been banked and then the cash used to repay this debt. Obviously none of us will know until the accounts are published, which will be the accounts to 30th June 2020 due for filing on 31st March 2021. Given PH doesn't appear to have any real capital to speak of this type of deal would (to me) make sense. It would make no sense at all to DH though. Being paid with his own money? Leave it out. DH gets his investment back (plus he could ask for x% on top per year) - I don't see where Phil gets the money from to pay for the Club otherwise.
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k1man999
Andy Booth Terrier
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Post by k1man999 on Aug 14, 2019 16:23:33 GMT 1
I always thought deano said he didn't expect nor would he take money out of the club. Maybe wrong. some things over the last few years Don't add up, we have wasted a lot of money.
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