Carlosball

[bluesandtwos]

There has been a lot of comments about our new signings not fitting the Carlos style of play. It was his first season coaching a team at this level and I do wonder if there may be some pragmatic changes next season.

We regularly struggled playing out from the back and there appeared, most games, to be no other plan. When we did play it long we rarely managed to hold the ball up front for long, and even a big striker didn’t help much. I hope we will be more varied in our play this season and stop putting ourselves under unnecessary pressure.

We have good attacking options but regularly got stuck in our own half due to our inability to move the ball forward. I do wonder if the signings so far show a change in the rigidity of our tactics. Perhaps we will see Carlosball mark 2.

[Deleted]

He was recruited from L**ds as a clone of Biesla in an effort to produce more fan friendly football.

The recruitment team led by Bromby have laughed in the face of that and continue to sign players more akin to the Cowley bros style as per Warnock, Pullis et al.

What a fucking shit show.

[htfcsince70]

May 22, 2021 20:30:22 GMT 1 bluesandtwos said:

There has been a lot of comments about our new signings not fitting the Carlos style of play. It was his first season coaching a team at this level and I do wonder if there may be some pragmatic changes next season.

We regularly struggled playing out from the back and there appeared, most games, to be no other plan. When we did play it long we rarely managed to hold the ball up front for long, and even a big striker didn’t help much. I hope we will be more varied in our play this season and stop putting ourselves under unnecessary pressure.

We have good attacking options but regularly got stuck in our own half due to our inability to move the ball forward. I do wonder if the signings so far show a change in the rigidity of our tactics. Perhaps we will see Carlosball mark 2.

I hope you are right. Playing out from the back is fashionable - why teams do it with players that are not capable of doing amazes me - if players can do it great - but even then it's not an option to be used every time. I've seen so many teams try to do and the opposition simply press them and stop them getting out time after time. I'm all for playing football - but playing in the right areas - not in our own penalty area or worse still, six yard box!

[Ox Terrier]

It HAS to be a change in tactic, right? Every manager wants to play sexy football, but ultimately they’ve got to play to the strength of the players available. Continuing with the tippy tappy shite is a recipe for disaster with the players we have. That’s no disrespect to the players from last season or the new signings either. I just hope Carlos has reflected on the past season and determined that it’d be better to play to the players strengths as opposed to continuing this madness. Stubbornness is likely to see us relegated, but a change of tactic could see these same players comfortably finish mid table.

[space hardware]

Looking at the players signed since January, I'd say he's a dead man walking.

Not one player who fits his supposed philosophy has arrived.

[Ox Terrier]

May 22, 2021 22:08:40 GMT 1 space hardware said:

Looking at the players signed since January, I'd say he's a dead man walking.

Not one player who fits his supposed philosophy has arrived.

That’s why it’s got to be a change in tactic, surly. If not, you’re right, he won’t have long left.

[Tim Nice But Dim]

Who's got it wrong, Carlos or Bromby. Nothing wrong with long ball down the field to two burly strikers with a Chris Beech type player picking up all the lose balls on the edge of the area and letting rip. 3 points, simples.

[huddersfc]

May 22, 2021 22:14:29 GMT 1 Ox Terrier said:

May 22, 2021 22:08:40 GMT 1 space hardware said:

Looking at the players signed since January, I'd say he's a dead man walking.

Not one player who fits his supposed philosophy has arrived.

That’s why it’s got to be a change in tactic, surly. If not, you’re right, he won’t have long left.

But then that goes against everything Phil wanted when he brought cc in. If we change tactics to suit the players we are bringing in then we might as well have stuck with the cowleys.

Either way he has to start well or he is gone I think, so he needs to have a plan from the word go which fits the players we are signing. I can just imagine if we are 2 -0 down in our first home game playing like we did against Rotherham or Coventry etc. After 2 years of watching rubbish, there will be a lot of pent up anger and I can't imagine it being a pleasant atmosphere. Rightly or wrongly a fair few fans will want to vent.

[bluestripe]

May 22, 2021 22:23:08 GMT 1 Tim Nice But Dim said:

Who's got it wrong, Carlos or Bromby. Nothing wrong with long ball down the field to two burly strikers with a Chris Beech type player picking up all the lose balls on the edge of the area and letting rip. 3 points, simples.

Do you have a mullet by any chance? 🤪

[space hardware]

May 22, 2021 22:23:08 GMT 1 Tim Nice But Dim said:

Who's got it wrong, Carlos or Bromby. Nothing wrong with long ball down the field to two burly strikers with a Chris Beech type player picking up all the lose balls on the edge of the area and letting rip. 3 points, simples.

Burnley do ok with that philosophy 😄

[Captainslapper]

All this style of play stuff is a crock IMO.

Winning, that's all that matters and however you achieve it is the 'style' the manager wants, and the style the fans want.

I didn't notice any particular style of play under Carlos and I've no idea what 'carlosball' is supposed to be.
I don't think any of the signings either fit a particular style or don't fit a particular style either.
We're not a long ball team. We're not a short ball team. All we've been so far under CC is a try hard (and despite what some think, they do) and hope it clicks team.

The only tactic I can see obviously changing is that he might give up on the idea of the defenders arsing about with it so much because he'll realise he can't afford the sort of defenders who are capable of doing that without cocking it up at least once every game.

Other than that it is just a case of trying to put better players in each position out on the pitch in more games and hope it clicks more often next season.

[overtonterrierspirit]

May 22, 2021 22:52:42 GMT 1 Captainslapper said:

All this style of play stuff is a crock IMO.

Winning, that's all that matters and however you achieve it is the 'style' the manager wants, and the style the fans want.

I didn't notice any particular style of play under Carlos and I've no idea what 'carlosball' is supposed to be.
I don't think any of the signings either fit a particular style or don't fit a particular style either.
We're not a long ball team. We're not a short ball team. All we've been so far under CC is a try hard (and despite what some think, they do) and hope it clicks team.

The only tactic I can see obviously changing is that he might give up on the idea of the defenders arsing about with it so much because he'll realise he can't afford the sort of defenders who are capable of doing that without cocking it up at least once every game.

Other than that it is just a case of trying to put better players in each position out on the pitch in more games and hope it clicks more often next season.

No idea who started with the term “Carlosball” and I’ve no idea what it’s supposed to mean.
Your post makes a lot of sense.
It seems obvious to me that Carlos has learned a lot from this season and has a plan in place to avoid us having a repeat of this next time.

[specialun]

Carlosball was supposed to bring us attacking, high intensity football

As one of his biggest critics the football we played in Sept / Oct was better and we saw signs of attacking football in a settled clear structure - But after that we deteriorated and the football since had been some of the dullest I’ve ever seen from a Town side. Slow, boring, shapeless, no structure. A manger inept, without a clear plans and incapable of getting results from his players

A lot of people split the season to pre and post Christmas - it’s lazy, the warning signs had been obvious before that. Carlosball ended end October

Away from post October was dreadful, Carlos chopped and changed, shape, structure, style, lost faith and became confusing to understand what he was trying to achieve away - whilst managed decent results at home that papered over the obvious cracks and most ignored the obvious flaws / limitations in our manager and what was to follow.

Performances had become more sluggish, tired, not attacking and certainly lacked any intensity from November onwards.

The only time Carlos looked in control of what he was doing, was in Sept / October when he tried to play a certain way, we had a structure. After that he looked like a fish out of water incapable of understanding how to get the best out of the team

It appeared he had become more pragmatic around March but it became clear he didn’t really know what he was doing, structure, shape, pattern of play became pot luck and overcomplicated

We need a structure, shape, way of playing the whole squad understands. It doesn’t matter what that is as long as we all understand it, the head coach is bought into it, we recruit to that system

Those three points must be aligned to succeed

We should have got rid of Carlos months ago. It seems we’ve decided to keep him and hope he learns from his mistakes…. But if we did that then we had to back him to bring in players in to play the style he wants

If we’ve abandoned that idea then what the point of him being Head Coach?

[townrwe]

Maybe we are expecting to sack Carlos and are getting Powell style players for his glorious return.

[Million Dollar Babies]

I thought Carlossball involved our defenders giving it away in dangerous positions to gift goals to the opposition. We performed it very well this season

[bluesandtwos]

I didn't put this up as a Phil, Bromby or Carlos bashing thread, just a view on playing style. This was the coaching teams first season. New squad, for them, Covid, still had a few of our expensive mistakes to accommodate and the worst run of injuries I can remember for a while.

Given the complaints about our attackers, and given we lost Josh quite early and Ward was out more than in, only one team below 10th position scored more goals than us. Many of those goals were scored from outside the area, or only just in. With a poacher, and someone who could score from a penalty, we would have done better.

I don't think 'tippy tappy', as some have described it, was, in isolation, the problem. It was when there were no options and the opposition pressed us successfully. That led to mistakes and we gave away quite a few easy goals and that makes players nervous and the problems increase.

We lacked a way forward through the middle most of the season. Someone to drop deep to pick the ball up and mean we don't have to play it wide, usually to Toffolo, would have taken some pressure off the centre backs and made life harder for our opponents. We moved forward mostly down the left, which became predictable, because Sarr was the deep outlet and LOB, Toffolo and Koroma were, on the whole, our best attacking players.

3 centre backs may have been better given how little Toffolo and Pippa did as full backs. With REG on the right we would have had another centre back who can move forward and play a decent ball. I think REG was out for quite a while and still inexperienced, although he looked very good when he played in the last few games.

We had a very inexperienced keeper who I think did well given all other factors. He now has a season under his belt and, I hope, a better defence in front of him.

There are lots of things which can be changed without losing our core style of play, which is why I described it as Carlosball II. I would like to think that our signings help to address most of the issues and the coaching team have learned lessons from their first season at the sharp end.

We have all started new jobs and thought a year in about the things we would do better if we did them again. We all have the capacity to learn and a measure of Carlos and his team will be how they improve on what went wrong last season. Still got some ins and outs to come but I don't expect us to look like a Warnock team under Carlos. Whatever happens, when we get back in the stadium, we need to be fully behind them all.

[dalesterrier]

May 23, 2021 9:20:27 GMT 1 bluesandtwos said:

I didn't put this up as a Phil, Bromby or Carlos bashing thread, just a view on playing style. This was the coaching teams first season. New squad, for them, Covid, still had a few of our expensive mistakes to accommodate and the worst run of injuries I can remember for a while.

Given the complaints about our attackers, and given we lost Josh quite early and Ward was out more than in, only one team below 10th position scored more goals than us. Many of those goals were scored from outside the area, or only just in. With a poacher, and someone who could score from a penalty, we would have done better.

I don't think 'tippy tappy', as some have described it, was, in isolation, the problem. It was when there were no options and the opposition pressed us successfully. That led to mistakes and we gave away quite a few easy goals and that makes players nervous and the problems increase.

We lacked a way forward through the middle most of the season. Someone to drop deep to pick the ball up and mean we don't have to play it wide, usually to Toffolo, would have taken some pressure off the centre backs and made life harder for our opponents. We moved forward mostly down the left, which became predictable, because Sarr was the deep outlet and LOB, Toffolo and Koroma were, on the whole, our best attacking players.

3 centre backs may have been better given how little Toffolo and Pippa did as full backs. With REG on the right we would have had another centre back who can move forward and play a decent ball. I think REG was out for quite a while and still inexperienced, although he looked very good when he played in the last few games.

We had a very inexperienced keeper who I think did well given all other factors. He now has a season under his belt and, I hope, a better defence in front of him.

There are lots of things which can be changed without losing our core style of play, which is why I described it as Carlosball II. I would like to think that our signings help to address most of the issues and the coaching team have learned lessons from their first season at the sharp end.

We have all started new jobs and thought a year in about the things we would do better if we did them again. We all have the capacity to learn and a measure of Carlos and his team will be how they improve on what went wrong last season. Still got some ins and outs to come but I don't expect us to look like a Warnock team under Carlos. Whatever happens, when we get back in the stadium, we need to be fully behind them all.

👏

[detox]

If you were to look back at where last season went wrong, bearing in mind after 17 games we were 12th on 24 points..you might think the loss of Schindler and Koroma were they key factors. Both played in that 17th game ( a 2-0 win against Wednesday) but both then were injured..such that the next 29 games yielded a mere 25 points and our perfomances looked increasingly dire. I can understand in a way a change from 'Carlosball' to a more static, slower and cautious approach because we had no goalscorer and our defence looked shaky at best. With both ends of the pitch looking weak and vulnerable what else could Carlos do ? It didn't help when our recruitment guru's thought Keogh, Sarr, Schofield, Holmes, Sanogo and Ward were the answer to our problems..the weakness of our squad was fully exposed for all to see.

We notched 22 times in those first 17 games 1.3 goals per game..the rest of the season saw that drop to 0.9
Goals conceded in the first 17 games was also 22 goals but the remaining games saw that increase from 1.3 to 1.7 goals conceded per game.

So less effective both up front and at the back...would it have been different had Schindler and Koroma not been injured ?

For me Carlos had been dealt a duff hand, the weakness of the squad, the poor recruitment and the inability of Academy lads to make any impact on results...you could add in the horrendous other injuries we had and how long players seemed to be out for with what seemed routine ailments.

Could have juggled things better, should he have committed to a more attacking style despite our ability to miss the simplest of chances (and penalties) on a regular basis ? A series of gaffs at the back which were fully exploited by our opponents must have sent shivvers down Carlos's spine and in some respects, given all the above, he did well to simply keep us up.

The test now for carlos is to get the right players in (assuming he has any say at all in this) and to get the lads tuned in and ready to go for next season. he'll be accutely aware of his need for a stronger squad so as to avoid what happened when Schindler and koroma both got crocked at the same time. We can't again rely on 'making do'..relying O'Brien at left back, the likes of Sarr, Keogh, Mbenze , Bacuna cleared out and never to be seen again.. He will certainly have learned from the experience of last season but my worry is we will continue to rely on the likes of Sarr, Holmes, Ward and a bunch of Academy lads . Phil has to get this right, Carlos has to be more demanding of him but he certainly deserves another go.

[Convictatthemac]

May 22, 2021 23:12:52 GMT 1 specialun said:

Carlosball was supposed to bring us attacking, high intensity football

As one of his biggest critics the football we played in Sept / Oct was better and we saw signs of attacking football in a settled clear structure - But after that we deteriorated and the football since had been some of the dullest I’ve ever seen from a Town side. Slow, boring, shapeless, no structure. A manger inept, without a clear plans and incapable of getting results from his players

A lot of people split the season to pre and post Christmas - it’s lazy, the warning signs had been obvious before that. Carlosball ended end October

Away from post October was dreadful, Carlos chopped and changed, shape, structure, style, lost faith and became confusing to understand what he was trying to achieve away - whilst managed decent results at home that papered over the obvious cracks and most ignored the obvious flaws / limitations in our manager and what was to follow.

Performances had become more sluggish, tired, not attacking and certainly lacked any intensity from November onwards.

The only time Carlos looked in control of what he was doing, was in Sept / October when he tried to play a certain way, we had a structure. After that he looked like a fish out of water incapable of understanding how to get the best out of the team

It appeared he had become more pragmatic around March but it became clear he didn’t really know what he was doing, structure, shape, pattern of play became pot luck and overcomplicated

We need a structure, shape, way of playing the whole squad understands. It doesn’t matter what that is as long as we all understand it, the head coach is bought into it, we recruit to that system

Those three points must be aligned to succeed

We should have got rid of Carlos months ago. It seems we’ve decided to keep him and hope he learns from his mistakes…. But if we did that then we had to back him to bring in players in to play the style he wants

If we’ve abandoned that idea then what the point of him being Head Coach?

Totally disagree.

Town were going very well up until the end of December. There were clear patterns of play that were paying dividends, so much so we were pushing top ten and some were talking of pushing on for an outside chance of top 6. We gave Carlos an upgraded contract. The problem stemmed from fixture congestion and a lack of depth in the squad.

With Ward out, we were rotating Koroma, Mbenza and Campbell. We just didn’t have the depth to continue playing 433 with the physicality required for the system. We started to look leggy because there was no depth in the squad. It had nothing to do with Carlosball not working. Koroma got injured mid December, at the time our main goal threat.

Eiting was also looking gassed and his injury shortly followed at the start of January. That’s when it all fell apart. We lost our only creative midfielder shortly after we lost our top goal scorer. Then as we started our worst run we lost Hogg, who up until this point was changing opinions of his ability to play this style.

We went into Jan missing 3 critical players and Campbell was in awful form, he was missing gobbers. Our form through Jan/Feb was where we lost our way and confidence. We weren’t getting flogged, we were losing most by 1 and were on top late on in most games. We needed a goal scorer which is why I see JR coming in. It will stop teams sitting in and allow us to play Carlosball.

Then Toff gets suspended/injured halfway through the terrible run and to get players on the field who were Championship quality, we had LOB at LB. We just had no depth in the squad.

Our management have acknowledged this, I’d say that they felt responsible for leaving such a threadbare squad for an inexperienced manager, so much so we are now recruiting to right the wrongs.

So while I’m not a fan of going back to the future, we were screaming out to get Campbell off the pitch in the second half of matches from January on because we were controlling games but not scoring, we needed a poacher and Philips wasn’t up to it. Well we just got a poacher.

The new CB is obviously being brought in from a team who finished higher than us. He’s on the right side of 30 so I’m willing to give him a chance, as he said his job will be to stop goals. Let’s put it this way, he can’t be worse than what we had.

New gk, not confirmed yet, but he caught the ball more than Schofield has in his 3 minute clip, he also came off his line more and I bet he never ends up behind the line like Schofield. So he’s another I’m going to get behind and give a chance.

Also spoken of proper LB and RB quality to compete for positions or at least be a backup that meets the standard which allows us to stop burnout. Im sure there will be plenty more additions, such as AM and replacements for Baccuna and Mbenza when they leave.

Think it’s time to give it a rest for a bit and let the club do their job. Stop with the negativity, because it won’t do anyone good.

I’m looking forward to a new season, a rejuvenated team with some additions that allow Carlos to play his style.

[Farsley Terrier (UK product)]

May 22, 2021 22:08:40 GMT 1 space hardware said:

Looking at the players signed since January, I'd say he's a dead man walking.

Not one player who fits his supposed philosophy has arrived.

I do wonder if the players we are signing are for a 'different' manager because quick attacking football with high intensity would be a million miles away fom what we'll be able to produce.

[Christ in Shades (art)]

May 22, 2021 22:08:40 GMT 1 space hardware said:

Looking at the players signed since January, I'd say he's a dead man walking.

Not one player who fits his supposed philosophy has arrived.

If things don't start well after 10 games, he'll be toast.

He seems to have no say over the incoming signings, he seems to know sod all about the signings, you can tell when he does and interview about them. They might as well make Bromby manager.

[space hardware]

May 23, 2021 10:44:18 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

May 22, 2021 22:08:40 GMT 1 space hardware said:

Looking at the players signed since January, I'd say he's a dead man walking.

Not one player who fits his supposed philosophy has arrived.

If things don't start well after 10 games, he'll be toast.

He seems to have no say over the incoming signings, he seems to know sod all about the signings, you can tell when he does and interview about them. They might as well make Bromby manager.

Well.... it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

[durhamterrier]

Think a team needs more than one defined way of playing . Play high intensity pressing football against teams like Barnsley and they’ll piss themselves and hoof it over you . Similarly sit off against them and they’ll pen you in.

Read a book around David Moyes tactics and instead of he insisted on gearing tactics against his opposition - if a team always plays through their number 10 , stick someone on him . If they’ve pacy wingers and full backs that overlap double up with defensive wingers .

Whilst I admire teams who play a certain way for 46 games , it often leaves them mid table unless they’ve high quality players across the pitch which we don’t have . I know people will allude to leeds but they had PL loans , highest wage budget in the league and had spent 20m + to assemble that team

[dugnet]

Irrespective of the style of play there are a few fundamentals that need addressing this season.

When Karoma and Mbenza were both playing well in the early part of the season we carried a threat. Both have pace and it seems to me that for the style Carlos, Carlosball if you like, wanted to play this was essential. When you add the desire to have the full backs providing a dynamic overload and Eiting adding the creativity it was encouraging in the period up to Xmas. Post Xmas our form fell away, there can be no doubt that injuries played a part here to be entirely fair.

However there was one glaring weakness throughout the season and that was the quality of our defending. Taking away the debate about the quality of individuals our shape when we didn't have the ball was very poor at times. This is something Carlos needs to address. I would also add our lack of pace in the centre of the pitch was also lacking. There were many times we were over run in midfield and outpaced at the heart of the defence. This is needs addressing through coaching and recruitment.

Carlos also needs to demonstrate he has a plan A, B, C and D. More importantly, the players all need to understand how to adapt and manage games in different circumstances. This comes again from coaching but it also comes from man management and generating a spirit throughout the squad. There is no doubt that since Stamford Bridge the collective spirit in the club has steadily dissipated. Carlos must demonstrate that he has a team who are behind him and behind each other.

At the moment I am not personally convinced that as a club we are aligned. Carlos is said to be an "outstanding coach" but in the recent interview with PH I didn't hear anything about working him with him, specifically, to build a team. Sure building a team was referred to but it was almost like the footballing management department will recruit the players and then Carlos will work his magic. NB: That was just my take, on reflection, on what I heard.

At our level, with our budget, creating a competitive (note I said competitive rather than successful, my hope if for Championship stability with signs of future progress) squad and team is easier said than done. To achieve this we need that alignment . I don't think we are fragmented but perhaps there is a "siloed" approach where one department works in isolation of the others? At the moment it just doesn't feel we are completely on top of the club we want to be, and that worries me looking forward.

As for Carlos, I think he has a small window of opportunity to show what PH says about him. I have absolutely no doubt he has a keen work ethic and integrity but how good a coach is he? Is he strong enough to shape the squad how he wants? Is he shrewd enough to bring together a footballing team with spirit, heart and belief? More simply does he know how to drill a defence? I don't think we know yet but given the performances in the last half of the season the doubt that has been created has put him under scrutiny. If we don't see a convincing set of performances, note performances as opposed to results, by the end of October I am not sure how much of a future he will have.

PH has made it clear where we are as a club. Although I am personally disappointed as to how things have turned out I have to accept we are where we are. As such we need to be the best that we can be at the level we can operate. This therefore comes down to focused recruitment, everybody working together, the creation of a fresh mindset across the club and rebuilding the trust with the supporters. This will only be measured by performances on the pitch.

The club has a challenge and an opportunity. Can they embrace both and show that everyone responsible can step up and get us moving back forward again? I obviously hope so, but genuinely think the jury on Carlos and PH will return a verdict sooner rather than later.

[dm]

May 23, 2021 9:06:06 GMT 1 Million Dollar Babies said:

I thought Carlossball involved our defenders giving it away in dangerous positions to gift goals to the opposition. We performed it very well this season

That started at least 4-5 years ago.

[Headless Chicken]

May 23, 2021 12:24:33 GMT 1 dm said:

May 23, 2021 9:06:06 GMT 1 Million Dollar Babies said:

I thought Carlossball involved our defenders giving it away in dangerous positions to gift goals to the opposition. We performed it very well this season

That started at least 4-5 years ago.

It's been excessive in recent times though. It's different to when we got promoted, where there was a healthy balance.

As we passed it out more, we were always going to concede the odd extra goal direct from an astray pass. It's just whether this is outweighed with the additional goals built from the back and conceding less goals from more generally giving the ball away cheaply.

The problem is the errors are blatant, as goals come direct from them, whereas the benefits are harder to see, because your goals come a few passes down the line and the goals you avoid conceding are potentially after more than one phase of play.


If anyone understood that waffle, well done 😄

[richhtfc]

This thing about Rhodes not being suited to Carlosball...

Is he not a relatively similar striker to Patrick Bamford? ie good finisher, intelligent positionally but lacks some pace?

[overtonterrierspirit]

May 23, 2021 16:39:07 GMT 1 richhtfc said:

This thing about Rhodes not being suited to Carlosball...

Is he not a relatively similar striker to Patrick Bamford? ie good finisher, intelligent positionally but lacks some pace?

I’d say that’s a pretty fair comparison.

[turbo2]

May 23, 2021 16:43:24 GMT 1 overtonterrierspirit said:

May 23, 2021 16:39:07 GMT 1 richhtfc said:

This thing about Rhodes not being suited to Carlosball...

Is he not a relatively similar striker to Patrick Bamford? ie good finisher, intelligent positionally but lacks some pace?

I’d say that’s a pretty fair comparison.

Bamford puts in a tremendous amount of effort both on and offf the ball.

For me there’s little comparison between them

[goodbet]

Neither are speed merchants but that is where the comparison should stop.
The amount of work Bamford puts in for his team is on a whole different level bringing in players and helping to bring other players forward is not the way Rhodes played. It is possible that as Rhodes, as he gets older and wiser he is developing his game and will have developed his style and range for his return.