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Post by fightinthedog on May 25, 2021 16:12:37 GMT 1
I have supported Town since childhood and first held a season ticket 1969/70 in the glorious year that we were promoted to the top tier so I have seen ups and down’s that make the current situation seem like happy days. I read lots of opinions on this thread ranging from the optimistic to the pessimistic perhaps via the realistic. So I thought I would try to steer away from opinions as much as possible and assemble some facts using the skills from a former life as an accountant. So why can’t we be like Brighton, Burnley or Norwich? We can look at the facts that are available to all (for free!) – the published accounts lodged at Companies House for the year ended June 2019 to get some perspective. At this point Town have been relegated, Norwich promoted and Burnley & Brighton are in the Prem. Billing, Jorgensen, VLP & Smith are yet to be sold. IMPORTANT - YOU WILL NEED TO OPEN THE ATTACHMENT BELOW TO SEE THE NUMBERS
Attachment DeletedI have just included the items of the accounts that I thought were most interesting – apologies if you feel I have been too brief or too detailed. Here are a few explanations :- Profit on player trading = the amount the player is sold for (even if some is yet to be received) less the Net Book Value of that player Net Book Value= the amount payable for the player less the amount “written off to date” (i.e. the amount payable is spread as a “cost” over the life of the players contract. Players from the academy such as Billing would presumably have a book value of nil as they did not cost anything. Net Borrowings = loans, overdrafts etc Other Creditors = the amount payable now or in the future for anything from programme printing to transfer fees. So why can’t we be like ? :-
Brighton
Neither Dean or Phil appear to have the net worth to finance a club in the way Brighton is funded. Dean’s net worth is quoted at £284m (Sunday Times Rich List) and Phil’s at £363m (Top 100 Richest Sports Club Owners for 2020 by OLBG.com.). Brighton’s owner Tony Bloom is quoted as having a net worth of £765m on the same list. Brighton’s borrowings are almost 3 times that of town’s and their Wage bill more 1.5 times. 2 points clear of relegation Burnley
We wish! – no borrowings and £42m in the bank - presumably helped by £30m of profit on player sales in 2018. A 15th place finish – 6 points off the drop - on a wage bill only 30% higher than town’s. Is it nirvana ? We will have to wait and see. In February the Guardian reported that “Burnley's US takeover has left club £90m worse off and loaded with debt”. Norwich
The 2017 Sunday Times Rich List had owners Delia Smith and Husband Michael Wynn Jones with a combined personal wealth of around £55million. A wage bill close to that of town and borrowings of only £21.2m saw them promoted 11 points clear of 3rd place. This lead to an apparent strategy in the prem of spending very little building up some cash reserves turning £21m of borrowings into net cash in the bank of £33m by the 2020 year end (Norwich accounts, unlike Town's have been published for the year to 2020) in order to keep the relegated team together for another try at promotion in 2020/21. Seems to be working so far ! |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 16:30:22 GMT 1
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Wingman
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Post by Wingman on May 25, 2021 16:33:41 GMT 1
All three clubs you name have had a game plan for the long-term and haven’t swayed off it. They’ve built on sustainable foundations and ensured their fans have bought into it; no re-boots every three years. They’ve taken the punches and thrown some back, and I say fair play to them.
I suspect we want to imitate them and Brentford, and in some respects we have done with the B team, pathways and picking up kids released elsewhere.
We can imitate these clubs in some regards but why not set our own path and do it our own way; why can’t we aspire to have clubs look at us and think ‘we need to be more like Huddersfield Town’.
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Post by htfctx on May 25, 2021 16:37:58 GMT 1
Player recruitment and contract management are the core of the business.
Contract Management:
Transfer fee = Player wage, because Agents can add. When a club is not a fashionable destination, higher wages and longer contracts are required as sweeteners.
3 year contract (Jordan Rhodes), Plays for his keep year one, Plays for an extension or a transfer year 2. Year three is a total miss on the player and is dead wood (Pritchard).
The last year of a contract is the same as a loan player. Psychologically, the last year of a contract is weaker as the contract ages and the player drifts to the door.
A squad is refreshed by about 25% / year, therefore the existing contracts need to be staggered for minimal transition tension.
Huddersfield since Bill Shankley, are tight money men, who can't let talent scouting 'trump' the purse strings. Therefore we get sound finances and miss the X factor that good scouting delivers.
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Post by Metch on May 25, 2021 16:40:12 GMT 1
Norwich and Burnley bounced straight back with their same manager and sticking to their respective philosophies. We didn't.
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Post by terriersyndrome on May 25, 2021 16:45:51 GMT 1
When Burnley got relegated they didn't have a rookie manager & their owner didn't call in around £45m in loans. The same with Norwich.
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on May 25, 2021 16:55:47 GMT 1
All three clubs you name have had a game plan for the long-term and haven’t swayed off it. They’ve built on sustainable foundations and ensured their fans have bought into it; no re-boots every three years. They’ve taken the punches and thrown some back, and I say fair play to them. I suspect we want to imitate them and Brentford, and in some respects we have done with the B team, pathways and picking up kids released elsewhere. We can imitate these clubs in some regards but why not set our own path and do it our own way; why can’t we aspire to have clubs look at us and think ‘we need to be more like Huddersfield Town’. I think that we did have a plan and we worked at it well to get in to the championship and then it all came too quick and we just weren't ready. We managed to stay in the Premier League, but the wheels came off because we did not have a plan for where we were and this together with Dean's illness it fell into what we see now. It is easy to say this in hindsight but we need to get back on track first of all. So now we are at the how did we get here stage and lets cut the wages end of things, we would have been out of this stage if Mbenza and Bacuna had been released but the club hope to have them moved on by the end of the summer. We have started the rationalisation stage where we build a team to keep us in this league and moving towards our 5 year plan to start competing towards the top of this division. I don't think that we can have any greater expectations than this, without someone to bankroll the club and a complete change in the backroom staff. I think that this is a fair assessment of our current situation. |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 16:57:29 GMT 1
Norwich have been in the EPL or receiving parachute payments for 14 of the last 17 seasons.
It makes it easier when you've bounced in and out a few times to bounce back again in future.
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Post by impact on May 25, 2021 17:17:14 GMT 1
Burnley are the only one of those we are close to. Brighton spent loads to get up and stay up, Norwich weren't too far behind getting up.
Burnley bought well and kept their finances in check. They're the model club for those that can't just chuck money away chasing the dream. But they also had limited ambition in the Premier league above survival - perhaps with their new owners that may change.
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Post by impact on May 25, 2021 17:26:19 GMT 1
Also that Norwich wage bill "close to Town's" was 55m to get promoted in 18/19 (Town 20m) and 88m to get relegated in 20th (Town 64m survival, 63m relegation).
It wasn't close at all.
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Post by dugnet on May 25, 2021 17:32:47 GMT 1
There is one thing that the 3 clubs named have that we don't, belief in how good their club could be. We don't, we have an accepting mindset that we can't be any better for a sustainable period and should be thankful when we do have a sliver of success.
If you don't think you are capable of better you never will be. Wagner had belief in spades, aligned with a superb work ethic. It costs little but is a precious commodity.
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Post by Toxic Ted on May 25, 2021 18:35:05 GMT 1
Long term plans and proper ‘football people’ in key roles makes the difference.
Webber at Norwich is the prime example. Pukki on a free, Buendia for £1.2m, keeping the squad together after relegation and coming straight back up.
Brighton know exactly what they are doing and have an excellent board. Yes, they’ve spent big but have an identity for it.
Dyche runs the show at Burnley and every signing is in his mould.
Clubs run entirely to benefit the manager and their long term goals.
The exact opposite of us with the exact opposite results.
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Post by Detective Boyle on May 25, 2021 18:49:09 GMT 1
There is one thing that the 3 clubs named have that we don't, belief in how good their club could be. We don't, we have an accepting mindset that we can't be any better for a sustainable period and should be thankful when we do have a sliver of success. If you don't think you are capable of better you never will be. Wagner had belief in spades, aligned with a superb work ethic. It costs little but is a precious commodity. Absolutely agree with your point - but I would slightly argue that Wagner was one of the contributors to our "small club mentality". Practically every press conference saying the same thing over and over - "we need lots of luck to get anything today", or "we have one of the budgets in the division" Contributed to a restrictive "happy to be here as it won't last long" attitude that shadowed over the club during our PL stint. |
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Post by sapphireblue on May 25, 2021 19:03:13 GMT 1
I have supported Town since childhood and first held a season ticket 1969/70 in the glorious year that we... Wow. Have you seen how Burnley and Brighton have gone along since 1969/70? Do you know how football works? I'm calling total bull-crap on your thread. |
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Post by dugnet on May 25, 2021 19:05:57 GMT 1
There is one thing that the 3 clubs named have that we don't, belief in how good their club could be. We don't, we have an accepting mindset that we can't be any better for a sustainable period and should be thankful when we do have a sliver of success. If you don't think you are capable of better you never will be. Wagner had belief in spades, aligned with a superb work ethic. It costs little but is a precious commodity. Absolutely agree with your point - but I would slightly argue that Wagner was one of the contributors to our "small club mentality". Practically every press conference saying the same thing over and over - "we need lots of luck to get anything today", or "we have one of the budgets in the division" Contributed to a restrictive "happy to be here as it won't last long" attitude that shadowed over the club during our PL stint. That's true and perhaps there is the issue, the man with all the belief had it squeezed from him? The underdog mentality can work but there's a balance between using it to motivate and it becoming self limiting. I think I have always believed that the club had the potential to be better. It's however a personal opinion. I will always believe we could be better, note not entitled, we just need those in charge to have the same belief to have a chance of achieving it. It's not about money, although it helps, it's about everyone pulling in the same direction. At the moment there's too many excuses and reasons why shouldn't expect anything different. As I say, it's just my personal opinion. |
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Post by runner76 on May 25, 2021 19:37:57 GMT 1
Three clubs that will not get above the bottom third of the Premier League and yo-yo up and down between PL and Championship? I’d rather be like Wolves or Leicester  |
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Post by huddersfc on May 25, 2021 20:52:24 GMT 1
We had that opportunity to at least give ourselves a chance to be like one of those 3, but the lack of decent planning blew it out of the water.
We are a really good example of how to achieve the near impossible on a relatively small budget, then blow it all and end up where we started 3 years later. Gambling money we didn't even have on players with nothing saved.
But it's all OK cus we "had a go". Those years of complete mismanagent of the football club in my opinion, will ensure we are a bottom 6 championship/top half league 1 side until we either get a very wealthy owner or lightning strikes twice.
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Post by Stewpot on May 25, 2021 20:53:48 GMT 1
None of the above survived a season in the PL against all expectations, then proceeded to sign the biggest load of tripe ever to grace their respective clubs, and ironically for us deep into July iirc. Just makes me contemplate again where we would have been if the powers that be at that moment in time had gone "fuck it, sign nobody, see what happens".
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 20:59:23 GMT 1
Burnley are the only one of those we are close to. Brighton spent loads to get up and stay up, Norwich weren't too far behind getting up. Burnley bought well and kept their finances in check. They're the model club for those that can't just chuck money away chasing the dream. But they also had limited ambition in the Premier league above survival - perhaps with their new owners that may change. And we're not actually behind Burnley either! If you consider our stint up as being equivalent to their Owen Coyle EPL visit, then we get re-promoted in 2022-23 season and we're matching what they've done (although we've had one EXTRA season in the top flight than they did in the same period). |
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Post by softboy on May 25, 2021 22:01:56 GMT 1
Yet another selective thread. FFS. You could just as easy said why Can’t we be like Stickport, Rochdale or Bury as they were counterparts with us not that long ago.
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Post by softboy on May 25, 2021 22:05:52 GMT 1
Forgot to
add for comparisons sake when where Norwich and Burnley in L1.
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Post by 28901 on May 25, 2021 22:16:33 GMT 1
Norwich and Burnley bounced straight back with their same manager and sticking to their respective philosophies. We didn't. Yoy saying we should have stuck with Jan? |
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Post by Baby-face Frankenstein on May 25, 2021 22:30:51 GMT 1
There is one thing that the 3 clubs named have that we don't, belief in how good their club could be. We don't, we have an accepting mindset that we can't be any better for a sustainable period and should be thankful when we do have a sliver of success. If you don't think you are capable of better you never will be. Wagner had belief in spades, aligned with a superb work ethic. It costs little but is a precious commodity. Liked what you say, but "Wagner had belief in spades" (?!), not so sure about that. Even in the Championship he was forever harping on about other big clubs and little old Huddersfield (tactical? Probably to a certain extent). Even if it was tactical, I'm not sure that even he suspected how easy it would be to succeed with German training methods and Gegenpressing to get out of the Championship. Question that could be dwelled upon  |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on May 25, 2021 22:36:36 GMT 1
I have supported Town since childhood and first held a season ticket 1969/70 in the glorious year that we... Wow. Have you seen how Burnley and Brighton have gone along since 1969/70? Do you know how football works? I'm calling total bull-crap on your thread. Yeah all 3 have enjoyed more top flight seasons than Town. Brighton were in an FA Cup final, Burnley have played in Europe. True both clubs were down to the last game of the season to stay in the league but let's face it, they have both done more than Town. |
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ambryboy
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Post by ambryboy on May 25, 2021 22:49:23 GMT 1
Norwich and Burnley bounced straight back with their same manager and sticking to their respective philosophies. We didn't. Yoy saying we should have stuck with Jan? Hindsight is a wonderful thing but perhaps we'd have been better having Hudson and Whitehead in charge for the remainder of the season, accepted our inevitable relegation and started with a clean slate in the summer. But seemingly our Chairman had been tracking Wagner's replacement for years yet bears no responsibility for the shitshow that followed and gets his investment back. Bizarre. |
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Post by sapphireblue on May 26, 2021 7:06:37 GMT 1
Wow. Have you seen how Burnley and Brighton have gone along since 1969/70? Do you know how football works? I'm calling total bull-crap on your thread. Yeah all 3 have enjoyed more top flight seasons than Town. Brighton were in an FA Cup final, Burnley have played in Europe. True both clubs were down to the last game of the season to stay in the league but let's face it, they have both done more than Town. Why can't we be run like Sheffield Wednesday, Carlisle or Barrow. 3 clubs, all in the same divisions in 1969/70 as the three randoms previously selected. |
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Post by captainblack on May 26, 2021 7:20:47 GMT 1
Yet another selective thread. FFS. You could just as easy said why Can’t we be like Stickport, Rochdale or Bury as they were counterparts with us not that long ago. I think I have just "twigged" what you mean |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on May 26, 2021 7:33:37 GMT 1
Yeah all 3 have enjoyed more top flight seasons than Town. Brighton were in an FA Cup final, Burnley have played in Europe. True both clubs were down to the last game of the season to stay in the league but let's face it, they have both done more than Town. Why can't we be run like Sheffield Wednesday, Carlisle or Barrow. 3 clubs, all in the same divisions in 1969/70 as the three randoms previously selected. I don't really get what you're getting at to be honest? Most of you're posts seem to be arguing the toss with most people without giving any of your own opinion. I've never actually read any post of yours that offers opinion, debate or anything constructive. |
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Post by Metch on May 26, 2021 8:48:18 GMT 1
Norwich and Burnley bounced straight back with their same manager and sticking to their respective philosophies. We didn't. Yoy saying we should have stuck with Jan? Not at all, I mean if DW had been prepared to stay for the long term, potentially we would have bounced back stronger having learnt a few lessons, as did Dyche and Farke, all supposition but that's my thought. |
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on May 26, 2021 9:43:38 GMT 1
Absolutely agree with your point - but I would slightly argue that Wagner was one of the contributors to our "small club mentality". Practically every press conference saying the same thing over and over - "we need lots of luck to get anything today", or "we have one of the budgets in the division" Contributed to a restrictive "happy to be here as it won't last long" attitude that shadowed over the club during our PL stint. That's true and perhaps there is the issue, the man with all the belief had it squeezed from him? The underdog mentality can work but there's a balance between using it to motivate and it becoming self limiting. I think I have always believed that the club had the potential to be better. It's however a personal opinion. I will always believe we could be better, note not entitled, we just need those in charge to have the same belief to have a chance of achieving it. It's not about money, although it helps, it's about everyone pulling in the same direction. At the moment there's too many excuses and reasons why shouldn't expect anything different. As I say, it's just my personal opinion. It is about money. Easy to have belief when you’re spending £400m to establish yourself in 16th place in the premier league. Being unified, having belief, making the right decisions has to happen. But it’s a lot harder when you can’t buy the quality to win matches. That’s the brick wall we hit in the second season because the mistakes started piling up and we couldn’t afford to buy that quality, then all the belief went. Players that were operating at 100% of potential and that can only happen for so long. As a slight aside, Brighton spent £30m on Esquierdo and Jahanbakhsh and they’ve contributed very little. Being in the premier league you will buy some turkeys and need to have the money that they don’t cripple you. No amount of belief is going to help with that. All those clubs spent more money than town and Norwich and Burnley had already been up to the PL. So they didn’t have to spend £5m getting their ground up to spec and buy a new training ground. Burnley’s success is down to making the right decisions rather than chucking money at it. The money has come as a reward for success - also the percentage game they play is slightly ‘easier’ and makes their recruitment more straightforward. Which is not to say that we can’t be better, we can, but it means proper football people in the right places that are better than their counterparts at other clubs. And glossing over the fact that money is the main factor is just wrong. |
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