Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,964
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Post by Sparrow on Nov 29, 2023 13:02:07 GMT 1
Can I ask, what type of things, realistically, would be revolutionary for Huddersfield Town to do? You've mentioned following the likes of Brentford and Brighton. But that's not revolutionary. Brentford disbanded their Academy and set up a B team model. Recruited from countries such as France and Holland. And were early adopters of using Data. We did the same by disbanding our Academy, set up a B Team model and started to recruit youngsters from France, Holland and Sweden, before that got stopped due to Brexit. As well as starting to use more Data. Brighton were another early adopter of Data and invested very very heavily in it and their playing squad. They've spent over £425M since we were both promoted to the PL. Plus around £25m in the 4 seasons up to promotion to the PL. So they spent over £20m more than us over 4 season to get promoted. Then in our first season in the PL they spent another £20m more then we did to stay up, plus an additional £35m more than us in the second season. Over 6 seasons leading up to promotion to and then our eventual relegation from the PL they spent £75m more than we did. And then a further £300m since we got relegated and they finished 17th & 2 points above relegation. So that's hardly revolutionary. So what are these revolutionary things you keep referring to? Revolution through evolution. Its no good comparing us to anyone else, our budgets, location, facilities are unique, The positive aspects of Huddersfield are a fairly hard sell unless your offering big wages, a trip to castle hill or a house in birkby and decent chicken from Marstons probably isnt going to be a deal clincher. We are close to Leeds is about the only draw outside of football. So we have to find our USP. Cartwright "appears" to have decided that is giving players that have shown they can play in the past but have fallen out of form or favour a platform to shine at huddersfield, thats his perogative and is what worked for him at stokalona, but its just regurgitating something that was reasonably sucessful 10 years ago. Hes teamed that up with a cheerleader to try to give them confidence to regain their previous form.. certainly nothing revolutionary, but a kind of USP. Recent sucess in many major leagues around the world, for clubs outperforming their budgets has come from committing to a moneyball approach, for that you need an expert in moneyball, not someone regurgitating past success. Firstly i would headhunt people out of the finest moneyball exmaples, it would be difficult to get them out of brighton or brentford, but we may stand a chance of recruiting to a director role if they are currently 2nd on the ship. That would give us a lift up onto the shoulders of these clubs and id ask him to shamelessly implement that process as our club. Id hire computer programmers, High IQ candidates with masters in statistics, and trust the moneyball process. Id get the people that dont understand football to determine the KPIs of positions within the team and understand that they will change as each puzzle piece is entered into the team and that when you enter one piece another one may need changing. Id implement the "Huddersfield Way" of playing, probably a 433, High Press, Attacking, fairly direct style. would be my philosophy, but id actually listen to the fans for what they wanted the philosphy to be and implement the finding pragmatically. On to USP, We could use cartwrights approach, its not a dreadful idea, just lacks the 10 year later thought process' and evolution of his idea, combined with offering raw talent, like rudoni a platform to play regular games. Management wise, you would need more than a motivator if your developing players, so i would be looking for a developing manager as well, doubt the guy from tolouse would come to town, or potter, but those kind of appointments a step earlier. Very basic rundown of what my approach would be. So actually nothing revolutionary then. Just copying something that has been around for a number of years now and used by pretty much every club in the country, including Town. Spurs started using the above under Damien Carmolli in 2006/7 when they worked with Decision Technology Liverpool started using the above from around 2012, when Ian Graham joined them. He hired the likes of Tim Waskett who has a first class honours in Astrophysics and Will Spearman who had a doctorate in High Energy Physics from Harvard. Jurgen Klopp became their manager in 2015, and as we all know, just over 12 months later his best mate joined us and is quoted by pretty much everyone as revolutionising the club. It was Wagner who brought in all the ideas around data and analysts, from what his mate had at his disposal at Anfield. Naturally, we don't have the same budget to be hiring the calibre of people Liverpool do. And I'm sorry but someone second in command at a Brighton or Brentford type club is not gonna come to Huddersfield Town any time soon. They'd either stay where they were, wait for the number 1 to be poached by a bigger club or they'd move to another PL club or bigger Championship club than us Burnley were one of the first clubs to enter into a partnership with AiScout in 2021. We now have Technical Scouts and Video Scouts who make use of such technology. Villa have been using the Moneyball approach since around 2015 Brentford have been using it for years and it forms a lot of what Brighton do. How do you know that Darren Moore is not a motivator? Have you actually seen him on the training pitches interacting with the players at Canalside. Have you seen him delivering video session to the players, have you sat in on his 1-2-1's with players, his pre-match, half time and end of match talks? Have you spoken to any of the players personally and asked them about him? Or are you just going by what you see and hear in his interviews and how he is on the touchline. Maybe he's crap infront and a camera or with a microphone in his face? Many many successful managers have not been like Carlos or Wagner on the sidelines, but more reserved and thoughtful. In a nutshell. You haven't really got a clue what you're on about. You may have a high IQ, but in the words of Positive/Prepare, you do not understand football |
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Post by Porrohman on Nov 29, 2023 13:18:04 GMT 1
Very full of himself. Also very keen to hammer down throats how important he is and his role is apparently the same as being the manager (it isn't and if it here, we have an issue). Manages to say a lot whilst actually saying very little. Which is very impressive for a video designed to talk into the detail of a specific role. Wouldn't buy a car from him. wasn’t he saying that the role is like that of a manager in terms of how often clubs can change the person in the role. Not that the role is as important as that of the manager. Indeed, doesn’t he emphasise that the most important opinion when signing players is the Manager’s as it’s the manager who has to coach and work with the player everyday Which doesn't fit in with what was said the other day about them not signing the players Colin wanted because they'd decided that the players weren't better than what we had 🤔 |
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Post by townrwe on Nov 29, 2023 13:42:40 GMT 1
Revolution through evolution. Its no good comparing us to anyone else, our budgets, location, facilities are unique, The positive aspects of Huddersfield are a fairly hard sell unless your offering big wages, a trip to castle hill or a house in birkby and decent chicken from Marstons probably isnt going to be a deal clincher. We are close to Leeds is about the only draw outside of football. So we have to find our USP. Cartwright "appears" to have decided that is giving players that have shown they can play in the past but have fallen out of form or favour a platform to shine at huddersfield, thats his perogative and is what worked for him at stokalona, but its just regurgitating something that was reasonably sucessful 10 years ago. Hes teamed that up with a cheerleader to try to give them confidence to regain their previous form.. certainly nothing revolutionary, but a kind of USP. Recent sucess in many major leagues around the world, for clubs outperforming their budgets has come from committing to a moneyball approach, for that you need an expert in moneyball, not someone regurgitating past success. Firstly i would headhunt people out of the finest moneyball exmaples, it would be difficult to get them out of brighton or brentford, but we may stand a chance of recruiting to a director role if they are currently 2nd on the ship. That would give us a lift up onto the shoulders of these clubs and id ask him to shamelessly implement that process as our club. Id hire computer programmers, High IQ candidates with masters in statistics, and trust the moneyball process. Id get the people that dont understand football to determine the KPIs of positions within the team and understand that they will change as each puzzle piece is entered into the team and that when you enter one piece another one may need changing. Id implement the "Huddersfield Way" of playing, probably a 433, High Press, Attacking, fairly direct style. would be my philosophy, but id actually listen to the fans for what they wanted the philosphy to be and implement the finding pragmatically. On to USP, We could use cartwrights approach, its not a dreadful idea, just lacks the 10 year later thought process' and evolution of his idea, combined with offering raw talent, like rudoni a platform to play regular games. Management wise, you would need more than a motivator if your developing players, so i would be looking for a developing manager as well, doubt the guy from tolouse would come to town, or potter, but those kind of appointments a step earlier. Very basic rundown of what my approach would be. So actually nothing revolutionary then. Just copying something that has been around for a number of years now and used by pretty much every club in the country, including Town. Spurs started using the above under Damien Carmolli in 2006/7 when they worked with Decision Technology Liverpool started using the above from around 2012, when Ian Graham joined them. He hired the likes of Tim Waskett who has a first class honours in Astrophysics and Will Spearman who had a doctorate in High Energy Physics from Harvard. Jurgen Klopp became their manager in 2015, and as we all know, just over 12 months later his best mate joined us and is quoted by pretty much everyone as revolutionising the club. It was Wagner who brought in all the ideas around data and analysts, from what his mate had at his disposal at Anfield. Naturally, we don't have the same budget to be hiring the calibre of people Liverpool do. And I'm sorry but someone second in command at a Brighton or Brentford type club is not gonna come to Huddersfield Town any time soon. They'd either stay where they were, wait for the number 1 to be poached by a bigger club or they'd move to another PL club or bigger Championship club than us Burnley were one of the first clubs to enter into a partnership with AiScout in 2021. We now have Technical Scouts and Video Scouts who make use of such technology. Villa have been using the Moneyball approach since around 2015 Brentford have been using it for years and it forms a lot of what Brighton do. How do you know that Darren Moore is not a motivator? Have you actually seen him on the training pitches interacting with the players at Canalside. Have you seen him delivering video session to the players, have you sat in on his 1-2-1's with players, his pre-match, half time and end of match talks? Have you spoken to any of the players personally and asked them about him? Or are you just going by what you see and hear in his interviews and how he is on the touchline. Maybe he's crap infront and a camera or with a microphone in his face? Many many successful managers have not been like Carlos or Wagner on the sidelines, but more reserved and thoughtful. In a nutshell. You haven't really got a clue what you're on about. You may have a high IQ, but in the words of Positive/Prepare, you do not understand football In essence, that is what the revolution is turbocharged moneyball, The removal of all supposed football understanding from recruitment to become totally results driven, Employ high IQ maths whizz' who have no interest in football to do the recruiting, limiting bias. It would be a hard sell to any club, but the barrier to true moneyball is opinion, giving darren moore 5 choices shows that the current encumbant doesnt understand moneyball or statistical recruitment. There is only 1 best player for a role, and that should be the player you choose. |
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Post by Waterloo Terrier on Nov 29, 2023 14:08:24 GMT 1
Interesting interview but the emphasis he puts on everyone being “aligned” is concerning. The last thing any manager at Town should want is to be aligned to his Sporting Director, they should want to maximise their budget and get as many high quality players through the door as possible.
Which makes them going back to Warnock in the summer even odder. It was always going to end in disaster.
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Dan
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,868
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Post by Dan on Nov 29, 2023 14:19:12 GMT 1
Feel like I'm losing brain cells reading certain posts on this thread.
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,610
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Post by goodbet on Nov 29, 2023 14:42:36 GMT 1
I dont dislike any of them to be fair, they are a quite likeable bunch... but I don't see anything across the board to suggest they are anything more than mildly competent. there is nothing revolutionary.... Edwards appears very good for his role? Not sure on his ability to be revolutionary or infact how wide his remit can be to be so, certainly on the playing side. Can I ask, what type of things, realistically, would be revolutionary for Huddersfield Town to do? You've mentioned following the likes of Brentford and Brighton. But that's not revolutionary. Brentford disbanded their Academy and set up a B team model. Recruited from countries such as France and Holland. And were early adopters of using Data. We did the same by disbanding our Academy, set up a B Team model and started to recruit youngsters from France, Holland and Sweden, before that got stopped due to Brexit. As well as starting to use more Data. Brighton were another early adopter of Data and invested very very heavily in it and their playing squad. They've spent over £425M since we were both promoted to the PL. Plus around £25m in the 4 seasons up to promotion to the PL. So they spent over £20m more than us over 4 season to get promoted. Then in our first season in the PL they spent another £20m more then we did to stay up, plus an additional £35m more than us in the second season. Over 6 seasons leading up to promotion to and then our eventual relegation from the PL they spent £75m more than we did. And then a further £300m since we got relegated and they finished 17th & 2 points above relegation. So that's hardly revolutionary. So what are these revolutionary things you keep referring to? You have put figures forward for the spend, I would guess that the amount that they have received in that time was greater than we managed to rake in. Unfortunately we seemed to waste all the the money we spent. Investing in 30 year old strikers will not bring in any revenue. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Nov 29, 2023 14:57:40 GMT 1
Feel like I'm losing brain cells reading certain posts on this thread. Your IQ just isn't sufficient. |
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,964
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Post by Sparrow on Nov 29, 2023 15:26:41 GMT 1
Can I ask, what type of things, realistically, would be revolutionary for Huddersfield Town to do? You've mentioned following the likes of Brentford and Brighton. But that's not revolutionary. Brentford disbanded their Academy and set up a B team model. Recruited from countries such as France and Holland. And were early adopters of using Data. We did the same by disbanding our Academy, set up a B Team model and started to recruit youngsters from France, Holland and Sweden, before that got stopped due to Brexit. As well as starting to use more Data. Brighton were another early adopter of Data and invested very very heavily in it and their playing squad. They've spent over £425M since we were both promoted to the PL. Plus around £25m in the 4 seasons up to promotion to the PL. So they spent over £20m more than us over 4 season to get promoted. Then in our first season in the PL they spent another £20m more then we did to stay up, plus an additional £35m more than us in the second season. Over 6 seasons leading up to promotion to and then our eventual relegation from the PL they spent £75m more than we did. And then a further £300m since we got relegated and they finished 17th & 2 points above relegation. So that's hardly revolutionary. So what are these revolutionary things you keep referring to? You have put figures forward for the spend, I would guess that the amount that they have received in that time was greater than we managed to rake in. Unfortunately we seemed to waste all the the money we spent. Investing in 30 year old strikers will not bring in any revenue. Interestingly. From the period including the 4 seasons up to promotion to and then our relegation from the Premier league. Brighton received £35.4m in transfer fees. We received £31.9m. So in that 6 year period they received £3.5m more than us in transfer fees, but spent £75m more than we did. They went up as champions, we finished 3rd and went up through the play offs. In the fist PL season we finished 16th, they finished 15th, 3 points above us curtesy of drawing 3 more matches than us. In the second season we finished bottom and they finished 1 place and 2 points above the relegation. The following season they spent £53m and received £7.4m 20/21 spent £43.4m, received £17.9m 21/22 spent £65m, received £68.2m 22/23 spent £48.2, received £119.3m 23/24 spent £87m, received £164.4m So we can see that in the 6 year period where we were almost matching Brighton's performance on the pitch, they were massively outspending us to the tune of £75m....I would imagine the bulk of that money came from the owner?? In the 2021/22 Accounts they were £499m in debt to him The point I'm trying to make is that if we are to follow the Brighton model, as some are suggesting, it would require a massive investment (debt) by the owners and a huge investment in the playing squad......And that's not revolutionary |
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Post by townrwe on Nov 29, 2023 16:03:06 GMT 1
You have put figures forward for the spend, I would guess that the amount that they have received in that time was greater than we managed to rake in. Unfortunately we seemed to waste all the the money we spent. Investing in 30 year old strikers will not bring in any revenue. Interestingly. From the period including the 4 seasons up to promotion to and then our relegation from the Premier league. Brighton received £35.4m in transfer fees. We received £31.9m. So in that 6 year period they received £3.5m more than us in transfer fees, but spent £75m more than we did. They went up as champions, we finished 3rd and went up through the play offs. In the fist PL season we finished 16th, they finished 15th, 3 points above us curtesy of drawing 3 more matches than us. In the second season we finished bottom and they finished 1 place and 2 points above the relegation. The following season they spent £53m and received £7.4m 20/21 spent £43.4m, received £17.9m 21/22 spent £65m, received £68.2m 22/23 spent £48.2, received £119.3m 23/24 spent £87m, received £164.4m So we can see that in the 6 year period where we were almost matching Brighton's performance on the pitch, they were massively outspending us to the tune of £75m....I would imagine the bulk of that money came from the owner?? In the 2021/22 Accounts they were £499m in debt to him The point I'm trying to make is that if we are to follow the Brighton model, as some are suggesting, it would require a massive investment (debt) by the owners and a huge investment in the playing squad......And that's not revolutionary The suggestion was to copy what these clubs are doing rather than reinvent it and then revolutionise it with new thinking once a structure is in place. You can only spend to your budget, We start a few years behind where they started and get to where they are a little sooner by further optimising the process' they have used and combining best practice from other clubs. There is no point comparing us and them, they are still there and their model is paying dividends. They bought players within their recruitment structure to pay dividends in future, but with short term survival in mind, We never planned to be there, but got there without a plan and now we are 4th bottom of the championship and sinking. |
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Post by tepidterrier on Nov 29, 2023 16:19:13 GMT 1
I am pretty sure Kevin has talked about many items that consitute a plan On the pitch - Sort out the playing squad more balance, too many players before on high wages not playing games. In progress - Stay in the championship this season the target and still currently about on target for this (it might be tight however) - Invest in players that the manager wants to improve the team (this only really starts in Jan, only Wiles was an investment so far IMHO) - Build an identity on the pitch, this has started but I suspect it will be next season before we start to see this - Gradually climb the table for a challange for promotion in 3-4years time (once the club is ready) Of the pitch - build a solid base of staff with experience, we have started - Re open the academy, this has been actioned and will happen - Sort the ownership of the stadium (in progress) - Improve matchday experience (difficult without the above) - Improve revenue, better merchandise, higher season ticket prices, better sponsorship deals, lots of work here but the new commercial team have made a start - Invest in the local area to the stadium to build / create a place to go before and after the match and on non match days, this is the biggest way to make more money but it will take time. - Make the club premier league ready so that if / when we are promoted again we are acutally ready to stay there and can take full advantage of this. - support local projects, help local buisness so that commercially the area is lifted (long term goals but nice goals). Sure there are many other parts but roughly thats what Kevin has said so far in many interviews and meetings with fans. all well and good to say that, but these aren't particularly imaginative. One thing's contingent on another thing already happening, when we're nowhere near getting the first thing. I'm not sure how we'll get premier league ready beyond making the academy the correct category, particularly with Cartwright in charge of recruitment. Promoted sides tend to have at least one of the 3: shit loads of money, an inherited squad of premier league quality players, or an innovative and forward thinking scouting and player trading strategy. While it's not the current regime's fault that Town have squandered all 3 of those in the last 4 years, none of that on pitch or off pitch strategy is going to retrieve them. Without that bottom line, there won't be money going into the club, however much more gets squeezed out of supporters in the name of 'improved fan experience'. |
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goodbet
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,610
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Post by goodbet on Nov 29, 2023 17:06:52 GMT 1
You have put figures forward for the spend, I would guess that the amount that they have received in that time was greater than we managed to rake in. Unfortunately we seemed to waste all the the money we spent. Investing in 30 year old strikers will not bring in any revenue. Interestingly. From the period including the 4 seasons up to promotion to and then our relegation from the Premier league. Brighton received £35.4m in transfer fees. We received £31.9m. So in that 6 year period they received £3.5m more than us in transfer fees, but spent £75m more than we did. They went up as champions, we finished 3rd and went up through the play offs. In the fist PL season we finished 16th, they finished 15th, 3 points above us curtesy of drawing 3 more matches than us. In the second season we finished bottom and they finished 1 place and 2 points above the relegation. The following season they spent £53m and received £7.4m 20/21 spent £43.4m, received £17.9m 21/22 spent £65m, received £68.2m 22/23 spent £48.2, received £119.3m 23/24 spent £87m, received £164.4m So we can see that in the 6 year period where we were almost matching Brighton's performance on the pitch, they were massively outspending us to the tune of £75m....I would imagine the bulk of that money came from the owner?? In the 2021/22 Accounts they were £499m in debt to him The point I'm trying to make is that if we are to follow the Brighton model, as some are suggesting, it would require a massive investment (debt) by the owners and a huge investment in the playing squad......And that's not revolutionary To get to the premier league you have to invest. Anyone who buys a football club and then makes the statement that their target is the Premier League in 3 years, there must be an investment plan to get us there. What is interesting is how Interesting that since they got there, their spending has changed. From your figures since 20/21 Spend on transfers £243.6m Income from transfers £369.8m That is a profit from transfers of £126.2m That may take some replicating. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 17:50:25 GMT 1
If you were buying an unknown business in a foreign country would you look for a risky revolutionary or a safe pair of hands? I know which way I would start, how that progresses may be different but it’s certainly how sensible business people would start. Personally, no I wouldn't, im a risk taker. I'd have been focused enough not to employ a couple of mates and I'd have either run a recruitment process or more likely headhunted someone whos done something revolutionary, if they did the analysis and came up with Moore I'd have immediately sacked them because that doesn't align with the Premier league in 3 years/doing it differently that Nagle said he wanted and certainly what my vision would be. Unfortunately it's nagles billions funding the show and not potless townrwe, although I still maintain potless Phil was the best chairman, better than Hoyle, just ashame he ran out of luck/cash. It’s not how you start though. You have to understand the business before you start taking risks and that takes time and having confidence in the people you appoint to run it. It’s just good business sense. |
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Post by rockwall on Nov 29, 2023 17:52:39 GMT 1
Interestingly. From the period including the 4 seasons up to promotion to and then our relegation from the Premier league. Brighton received £35.4m in transfer fees. We received £31.9m. So in that 6 year period they received £3.5m more than us in transfer fees, but spent £75m more than we did. They went up as champions, we finished 3rd and went up through the play offs. In the fist PL season we finished 16th, they finished 15th, 3 points above us curtesy of drawing 3 more matches than us. In the second season we finished bottom and they finished 1 place and 2 points above the relegation. The following season they spent £53m and received £7.4m 20/21 spent £43.4m, received £17.9m 21/22 spent £65m, received £68.2m 22/23 spent £48.2, received £119.3m 23/24 spent £87m, received £164.4m So we can see that in the 6 year period where we were almost matching Brighton's performance on the pitch, they were massively outspending us to the tune of £75m....I would imagine the bulk of that money came from the owner?? In the 2021/22 Accounts they were £499m in debt to him The point I'm trying to make is that if we are to follow the Brighton model, as some are suggesting, it would require a massive investment (debt) by the owners and a huge investment in the playing squad......And that's not revolutionary To get to the premier league you have to invest. Anyone who buys a football club and then makes the statement that their target is the Premier League in 3 years, there must be an investment plan to get us there. What is interesting is how Interesting that since they got there, their spending has changed. From your figures since 20/21 Spend on transfers £243.6m Income from transfers £369.8m That is a profit from transfers of £126.2m That may take some replicating. Apart from Schindler at 1.9m, where did we invest in 2016/17? Frees and loans did the rest. Our near miss 18 months ago, once again, was freebies and loans. I don't care what anyone says, it's getting the right balance that gets you promoted. If it was about investing (spending) why is it taking Stoke amd West Brom so long? |
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Post by royrace on Nov 29, 2023 17:56:00 GMT 1
I am pretty sure Kevin has talked about many items that consitute a plan On the pitch - Sort out the playing squad more balance, too many players before on high wages not playing games. In progress - Stay in the championship this season the target and still currently about on target for this (it might be tight however) - Invest in players that the manager wants to improve the team (this only really starts in Jan, only Wiles was an investment so far IMHO) - Build an identity on the pitch, this has started but I suspect it will be next season before we start to see this - Gradually climb the table for a challange for promotion in 3-4years time (once the club is ready) Of the pitch - build a solid base of staff with experience, we have started - Re open the academy, this has been actioned and will happen - Sort the ownership of the stadium (in progress) - Improve matchday experience (difficult without the above) - Improve revenue, better merchandise, higher season ticket prices, better sponsorship deals, lots of work here but the new commercial team have made a start - Invest in the local area to the stadium to build / create a place to go before and after the match and on non match days, this is the biggest way to make more money but it will take time. - Make the club premier league ready so that if / when we are promoted again we are acutally ready to stay there and can take full advantage of this. - support local projects, help local buisness so that commercially the area is lifted (long term goals but nice goals). Sure there are many other parts but roughly thats what Kevin has said so far in many interviews and meetings with fans. all well and good to say that, but these aren't particularly imaginative. One thing's contingent on another thing already happening, when we're nowhere near getting the first thing. I'm not sure how we'll get premier league ready beyond making the academy the correct category, particularly with Cartwright in charge of recruitment. Promoted sides tend to have at least one of the 3: shit loads of money, an inherited squad of premier league quality players, or an innovative and forward thinking scouting and player trading strategy. While it's not the current regime's fault that Town have squandered all 3 of those in the last 4 years, none of that on pitch or off pitch strategy is going to retrieve them. Without that bottom line, there won't be money going into the club, however much more gets squeezed out of supporters in the name of 'improved fan experience'. From what we know so far player trading for profit isn't part of the business model, bringing players through the academy is. That won't get PL, it's the Crewe Alexandra model. My issue with the current regime is that the business model that they keep giving us snippets of, is complete pie in the sky, fantasy stuff. Championship clubs don't get success by running academies, not investing in players and improving their revenues. Success needs to be bought by the owner, they then need to make very good footballing decisions. It's basically the total opposite to what we're seeing with the new regime and will lead to the opposite outcome to promotion. I don't expect significant investment in January or the summer, and that's what's needed. League one beckons unless we see significant investment and an improvement in footballing decisions. The choice of coach, timing of decisions and state of the squad don't inspire confidence in their ability to make good footballing decisions. |
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Post by royrace on Nov 29, 2023 18:04:02 GMT 1
To get to the premier league you have to invest. Anyone who buys a football club and then makes the statement that their target is the Premier League in 3 years, there must be an investment plan to get us there. What is interesting is how Interesting that since they got there, their spending has changed. From your figures since 20/21 Spend on transfers £243.6m Income from transfers £369.8m That is a profit from transfers of £126.2m That may take some replicating. Apart from Schindler at 1.9m, where did we invest in 2016/17? Frees and loans did the rest. Our near miss 18 months ago, once again, was freebies and loans. I don't care what anyone says, it's getting the right balance that gets you promoted. If it was about investing (spending) why is it taking Stoke amd West Brom so long? Lots of player trading and loans that summer, big money for town and it was paired with very good football decisions from a top quality DoF who brought in a top quality coach. It's the opposite to what we've seen so far with the new regime. Squad weakened even further, no quality loan players, poor and inappropriate signings, failure to fill key positions, topped off by shooting themselves in the foot a few games in. It's definitely not all about money thankfully but it does require some investment. |
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Post by Waterloo Terrier on Nov 29, 2023 18:20:31 GMT 1
To get to the premier league you have to invest. Anyone who buys a football club and then makes the statement that their target is the Premier League in 3 years, there must be an investment plan to get us there. What is interesting is how Interesting that since they got there, their spending has changed. From your figures since 20/21 Spend on transfers £243.6m Income from transfers £369.8m That is a profit from transfers of £126.2m That may take some replicating. Apart from Schindler at 1.9m, where did we invest in 2016/17? Frees and loans did the rest. Our near miss 18 months ago, once again, was freebies and loans. I don't care what anyone says, it's getting the right balance that gets you promoted. If it was about investing (spending) why is it taking Stoke amd West Brom so long? You are absolutely right, it’s about the balance and that’s been sadly lacking. In the last two summers we’ve failed to replace players and two managers with the ability to overperform (Carlos and Warnock) have called the club out for it. So we’ve ended up with a weak squad and mediocre management in the dugout. That is going to take a lot of undoing in January. |
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Post by townarentbest on Nov 29, 2023 18:28:26 GMT 1
From what we know so far player trading for profit isn't part of the business model, bringing players through the academy is. That won't get PL, it's the Crewe Alexandra model. My issue with the current regime is that the business model that they keep giving us snippets of, is complete pie in the sky, fantasy stuff. But thats NOT the model, a large proportion of fans are misunderstanding or misinterpreting what is being said, and then deciding the ownership are rubbish/incompetent, off the back of an interpretation of an overall OM that is not what they've even declared is how they intend to operate !! Its a demonstration of black & white over simplification of what has been said...trading players will be part of the business model, if someone offers us £20m for Lee Nicholls, he'll be gone, what he's suggesting is we'll be less compelled to sell players to simply trade, than the position we've been in historically, and how that position will come out is by attempting to increase other revenues, which there is massive opportunity for, given how poorly our club performs commercially compared to other similar clubs at this level and in League 1 (a situation that has been in play for MANY years). www.htsa-web.com/post/meeting-minutes-of-the-all-together-town-att-panel-16-10-2023"HTSA asked whether player trading was still a core part of the club’s financial strategy.
JE informed the panel that Huddersfield Town was in the bottom quartile of the league in terms of revenue. As a consequence, the board’s priority is to increase commercial revenue from this low baseline. JE stated that player trading was not a central part of this strategy. He concluded by emphasising the club’s proposal to reduce expenditure on the B-Team and reinvest the savings in the traditional academy structure."This does NOT mean that player trading for profit is not a part of the business model...what he's saying is that commercial revenues have to be increased so that transfer revenue is not expected to be central to that model. ie - gone are the days when we HAVE to EXPECT to sell Karlan Grant, O'Brien and Toffolo so we can come out with smug statements that thats put us in a good place for the next 4 years, whilst ignoring that selling your best players weakens the first 11. If we sign a player in January who scores 20 goals to the end of the season (which we won't!) and becomes worth £5m - we won't be selling him in summer, he'll be playing for us next season. |
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Post by royrace on Nov 29, 2023 18:36:44 GMT 1
From what we know so far player trading for profit isn't part of the business model, bringing players through the academy is. That won't get PL, it's the Crewe Alexandra model. My issue with the current regime is that the business model that they keep giving us snippets of, is complete pie in the sky, fantasy stuff. But thats NOT the model, a large proportion of fans are misunderstanding or misinterpreting what is being said, and then deciding the ownership are rubbish/incompetent, off the back of an interpretation of an overall OM that is not what they've even declared is how they intend to operate !! www.htsa-web.com/post/meeting-minutes-of-the-all-together-town-att-panel-16-10-2023"HTSA asked whether player trading was still a core part of the club’s financial strategy.
JE informed the panel that Huddersfield Town was in the bottom quartile of the league in terms of revenue. As a consequence, the board’s priority is to increase commercial revenue from this low baseline. JE stated that player trading was not a central part of this strategy. He concluded by emphasising the club’s proposal to reduce expenditure on the B-Team and reinvest the savings in the traditional academy structure."This does NOT mean that player trading for profit is not a part of the business model...what he's saying is that commercial revenues have to be increased so that transfer revenue is not expected to be centralto that model. ie - gone are the days when we HAVE to EXPECT to sell Karlan Grant, O'Brien and Toffolo so we can come out with smug statements that thats put us in a good place for the next 4 years, whilst ignoring that selling your best players weakens the first 11. If we sign a player in January who scores 20 goals to the end of the season (which we won't!) and becomes worth £5m - we won't be selling him in summer, he'll be playing for us next season. That quote confirms my take on it. Putting up ticket prices and selling a few more shirts won't bring in the kind of revenue for get from selling a Karlan Grant. There's nothing wrong with moving players on providing you replace them. Having sought after players just means you're successful. Is there a championship club with a successful academy? |
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
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Post by Sparrow on Nov 29, 2023 18:49:45 GMT 1
Interestingly. From the period including the 4 seasons up to promotion to and then our relegation from the Premier league. Brighton received £35.4m in transfer fees. We received £31.9m. So in that 6 year period they received £3.5m more than us in transfer fees, but spent £75m more than we did. They went up as champions, we finished 3rd and went up through the play offs. In the fist PL season we finished 16th, they finished 15th, 3 points above us curtesy of drawing 3 more matches than us. In the second season we finished bottom and they finished 1 place and 2 points above the relegation. The following season they spent £53m and received £7.4m 20/21 spent £43.4m, received £17.9m 21/22 spent £65m, received £68.2m 22/23 spent £48.2, received £119.3m 23/24 spent £87m, received £164.4m So we can see that in the 6 year period where we were almost matching Brighton's performance on the pitch, they were massively outspending us to the tune of £75m....I would imagine the bulk of that money came from the owner?? In the 2021/22 Accounts they were £499m in debt to him The point I'm trying to make is that if we are to follow the Brighton model, as some are suggesting, it would require a massive investment (debt) by the owners and a huge investment in the playing squad......And that's not revolutionary To get to the premier league you have to invest. Anyone who buys a football club and then makes the statement that their target is the Premier League in 3 years, there must be an investment plan to get us there. What is interesting is how Interesting that since they got there, their spending has changed. From your figures since 20/21 Spend on transfers £243.6m Income from transfers £369.8m That is a profit from transfers of £126.2m That may take some replicating. You're absolutely right that investment is needed by the owner to get to and survive over a period of time in the PL. I'm not disputing that at all. I was asking what was revolutionary about what Brighton had done, based on the fact that Townre was seeming to suggest that Brighton had had revolutionary ideas and we should be following/improving their model. I was asking what was revolutionary about an owner throwing hundreds of millions at it and the club spending hundreds of millions in transfer fees. You're absolutely right that the profit they've made on transfers since 20/21 is fantastic. Both the actual profit over that time and the individual profit. However, in my response to you guessing that they received far greater then we managed to rake in, I was pointing out that over a 6 year period where both Huddersfield and Brighton were in the same divisions, they only received £3.5m in transfer fees more than us, but spent £75m more. Whilst we had a lot of absolute stinkers that we wasted all our money on, so did Brighton. Alireza Jahenbakhsh, signed for £19.5m sold for less than £1m. Jose Izquierdo, signed for £12.5m, left on a free transfer. Davy Propper, signed for £11m, left on a free transfer. Tudor Baluta, signed for £2.5m, left on a free. Florin Andone, signed for £5m, left on a free. And quite a few others that they signed in the £2-£3m bracket that they lost money on when selling or letting go on a free. Which just highlights that even a club that's held up as being really good at player recruitment and trading doesn't get them all right. It's just that their owner has backed them with many hundreds of Millions, so they've been able to buy a lot of players - 50 players signed since we both gained promotion to the PL - whereby some have worked out and some haven't. We lost less money on Kongolo than they lost Jahenbakhsh, lost less on Diakhaby than they lost on Davy Propper, lost less on Mbenza than they did on Izquierdo, lost less on Flo Hadergjonaj then they did on Flo Andone, Lost less on Zanka than thy lost on Tudor Baluta......Perhaps if DH had been able to invest hundreds of millions into the club and we'd have been able to sign 50 players for many many millions over the last 7 season, and Brighton's owner was 'only' putting in £5-10m a year for the last 7 years, we might be in the top half of the PL and Brighton fans might be holding us up as a club to model themselves on..... Anyway, gone of on a bit of a tangent there. Better go and get the tea on for when the wife get's home from work (late night Xmas opening hours), kids start screaming that they are hungry and of course Towns win at Sunderland tonight :-) UTT |
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Post by Wagner Uber Alles on Nov 29, 2023 18:58:56 GMT 1
Bluudy Nora, I can't believe nor comprehend the abject negativity of one or two posters here. He / they seem to be against -
- the new owner - the new CEO - the new SD - the new manager - 90% of the team... Almost no doubt he / they've also have a whinge about -
- the groundsman - the kitman - the floodlight operator - the shop - the ticket office - the beer - the pies - the queues for beer and pies - the toilets
- the kit - the Terriers' badge - the stewards - the direction of the wind - the precipitation - the announcer - the traffic on Leeds Road Jesus wept.... |
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,964
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Post by Sparrow on Nov 29, 2023 19:19:48 GMT 1
[
[/quote]In essence, that is what the revolution is turbocharged moneyball, The removal of all supposed football understanding from recruitment to become totally results driven, Employ high IQ maths whizz' who have no interest in football to do the recruiting, limiting bias. It would be a hard sell to any club, but the barrier to true moneyball is opinion, giving darren moore 5 choices shows that the current encumbant doesnt understand moneyball or statistical recruitment.
There is only 1 best player for a role, and that should be the player you choose.
[/quote]
Towns Lead First Team Performance Analyst has a first class honours in Bachelor of Science and a Master of Science in Applied Performance Analysis.
Another of the first team performance Analysts has Masters of Science also in Applied Performance Analysis
The First team nutritionist has a first class honours, Bachelor of Science in Human Nutrition, Masters of Science in Human Nutrition and a Doctorate in Philosophy - PdH Sport and Exercise nutrition
They any good?
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Post by Up the Duff. on Nov 29, 2023 19:44:17 GMT 1
I am pretty sure Kevin has talked about many items that consitute a plan On the pitch - Sort out the playing squad more balance, too many players before on high wages not playing games. In progress - Stay in the championship this season the target and still currently about on target for this (it might be tight however) - Invest in players that the manager wants to improve the team (this only really starts in Jan, only Wiles was an investment so far IMHO) - Build an identity on the pitch, this has started but I suspect it will be next season before we start to see this - Gradually climb the table for a challange for promotion in 3-4years time (once the club is ready) Of the pitch - build a solid base of staff with experience, we have started - Re open the academy, this has been actioned and will happen - Sort the ownership of the stadium (in progress) - Improve matchday experience (difficult without the above) - Improve revenue, better merchandise, higher season ticket prices, better sponsorship deals, lots of work here but the new commercial team have made a start - Invest in the local area to the stadium to build / create a place to go before and after the match and on non match days, this is the biggest way to make more money but it will take time. - Make the club premier league ready so that if / when we are promoted again we are acutally ready to stay there and can take full advantage of this. - support local projects, help local buisness so that commercially the area is lifted (long term goals but nice goals). Sure there are many other parts but roughly thats what Kevin has said so far in many interviews and meetings with fans. [b Genuine question.. who are the players you refer to who were on too high wages and were not playing. Rhodes is one. Who are the rest ? |
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midge
Andy Booth Terrier
[M0:5]
Posts: 3,443
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Post by midge on Nov 29, 2023 20:06:06 GMT 1
But thats NOT the model, a large proportion of fans are misunderstanding or misinterpreting what is being said, and then deciding the ownership are rubbish/incompetent, off the back of an interpretation of an overall OM that is not what they've even declared is how they intend to operate !! www.htsa-web.com/post/meeting-minutes-of-the-all-together-town-att-panel-16-10-2023"HTSA asked whether player trading was still a core part of the club’s financial strategy.
JE informed the panel that Huddersfield Town was in the bottom quartile of the league in terms of revenue. As a consequence, the board’s priority is to increase commercial revenue from this low baseline. JE stated that player trading was not a central part of this strategy. He concluded by emphasising the club’s proposal to reduce expenditure on the B-Team and reinvest the savings in the traditional academy structure."This does NOT mean that player trading for profit is not a part of the business model...what he's saying is that commercial revenues have to be increased so that transfer revenue is not expected to be centralto that model. ie - gone are the days when we HAVE to EXPECT to sell Karlan Grant, O'Brien and Toffolo so we can come out with smug statements that thats put us in a good place for the next 4 years, whilst ignoring that selling your best players weakens the first 11. If we sign a player in January who scores 20 goals to the end of the season (which we won't!) and becomes worth £5m - we won't be selling him in summer, he'll be playing for us next season. That quote confirms my take on it. Putting up ticket prices and selling a few more shirts won't bring in the kind of revenue for get from selling a Karlan Grant. There's nothing wrong with moving players on providing you replace them. Having sought after players just means you're successful. Is there a championship club with a successful academy? Define successful!? In terms of producing players who go on to play minutes for the club- probably Blackburn and Bristol City. Producing talent they go on to sell, hasn't there been a lot of press recently about England players who have come through Championship academies- Bellingham, Maddison, Phillips, Stones!? Think there are a few more!? |
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Post by dezzly on Nov 29, 2023 20:45:33 GMT 1
Bluudy Nora, I can't believe nor comprehend the abject negativity of one or two posters here. He / they seem to be against -
- the new owner - the new CEO - the new SD - the new manager - 90% of the team... Almost no doubt he / they've also have a whinge about -
- the groundsman - the kitman - the floodlight operator - the shop - the ticket office - the beer - the pies - the queues for beer and pies - the toilets
- the kit - the Terriers' badge - the stewards - the direction of the wind - the precipitation - the announcer - the traffic on Leeds Road Jesus wept.... Definitely the direction of the wind as I think it controls their mood swings |
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Post by townarentbest on Nov 29, 2023 22:12:24 GMT 1
But thats NOT the model, a large proportion of fans are misunderstanding or misinterpreting what is being said, and then deciding the ownership are rubbish/incompetent, off the back of an interpretation of an overall OM that is not what they've even declared is how they intend to operate !! www.htsa-web.com/post/meeting-minutes-of-the-all-together-town-att-panel-16-10-2023"HTSA asked whether player trading was still a core part of the club’s financial strategy.
JE informed the panel that Huddersfield Town was in the bottom quartile of the league in terms of revenue. As a consequence, the board’s priority is to increase commercial revenue from this low baseline. JE stated that player trading was not a central part of this strategy. He concluded by emphasising the club’s proposal to reduce expenditure on the B-Team and reinvest the savings in the traditional academy structure."This does NOT mean that player trading for profit is not a part of the business model...what he's saying is that commercial revenues have to be increased so that transfer revenue is not expected to be centralto that model. ie - gone are the days when we HAVE to EXPECT to sell Karlan Grant, O'Brien and Toffolo so we can come out with smug statements that thats put us in a good place for the next 4 years, whilst ignoring that selling your best players weakens the first 11. If we sign a player in January who scores 20 goals to the end of the season (which we won't!) and becomes worth £5m - we won't be selling him in summer, he'll be playing for us next season. That quote confirms my take on it. Putting up ticket prices and selling a few more shirts won't bring in the kind of revenue for get from selling a Karlan Grant. There's nothing wrong with moving players on providing you replace them. Having sought after players just means you're successful. Is there a championship club with a successful academy? AND NOBODY is saying we aren't going to sell players! But we're going to try and get on the same step as everyone else whilst doing that, rather than not bothering to improve things elsewhere so we NEED to make those big transfer profits constantly. FWIW, Norwich, Birmingham, Swansea, Blackburn and I'm sure a good 3 or 4 others could be considered to have a "successful" academy. |
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Post by richhtfc on Feb 17, 2024 0:12:58 GMT 1
I’ve slung some mud at this fella and rightly so I think with the Tom Edwards and Darren Moore picks but is he doing a good job on the sly if this manager works out? Burgzorg and Balkan are diamonds in the rough and if this managerial appointment goes well I think he deserves some credit to go along with all the stick he gets. I thought Edwards was widely known to be a Warnock/Jepson pick? |
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DuffMan
Iain Dunn Terrier
Posts: 541
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Post by DuffMan on Feb 17, 2024 0:40:29 GMT 1
I’ve slung some mud at this fella and rightly so I think with the Tom Edwards and Darren Moore picks but is he doing a good job on the sly if this manager works out? Burgzorg and Balkan are diamonds in the rough and if this managerial appointment goes well I think he deserves some credit to go along with all the stick he gets. I thought Edwards was widely known to be a Warnock/Jepson pick? They get the final pick I think but assumed he was brought forward by Cartwright with the stoke / Beswick link |
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Post by Henry Mcgee on Feb 17, 2024 12:17:32 GMT 1
I thought Edwards was widely known to be a Warnock/Jepson pick? They get the final pick I think but assumed he was brought forward by Cartwright with the stoke / Beswick link We'll never know who was behind the Edwards loan - all rumour - so we'll just have to leave that huge misjudgement aside. The Moore one is really odd though. Not so much the appointment based on his track record - a win rate of 50% over a decent period of time really is exceptional so you can see why he was appointed based on that alone. It was the talk about an attacking brand of football that was strange - he'd clearly never played attacking football, nor even a pressing style of football - you could have easily found that out by jumping on a couple of fan forums and hearing the deafening noises that his football was dull. Town (Cartwright presumably) got that massively wrong. However, his excellent transfer business in January (plus Burgzorg) is to his immense credit - and this managerial appointment looks as good as it could get. For me, despite Moore, and despite the fact he looks like something between a spiv and a slob, Cartwright is beginning to look like a pretty good appointment. |
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Post by drumriggend on Feb 17, 2024 12:42:07 GMT 1
They get the final pick I think but assumed he was brought forward by Cartwright with the stoke / Beswick link We'll never know who was behind the Edwards loan - all rumour - so we'll just have to leave that huge misjudgement aside. The Moore one is really odd though. Not so much the appointment based on his track record - a win rate of 50% over a decent period of time really is exceptional so you can see why he was appointed based on that alone. It was the talk about an attacking brand of football that was strange - he'd clearly never played attacking football, nor even a pressing style of football - you could have easily found that out by jumping on a couple of fan forums and hearing the deafening noises that his football was dull. Town (Cartwright presumably) got that massively wrong. However, his excellent transfer business in January (plus Burgzorg) is to his immense credit - and this managerial appointment looks as good as it could get. For me, despite Moore, and despite the fact he looks like something between a spiv and a slob, Cartwright is beginning to look like a pretty good appointment. Agree with this.. Kev gives Cartwright the credit for finding AB.. On paper he looks better than anyone we’ve had before.. Time will tell.. 😃😃 |
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