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Post by htafcokay on Mar 21, 2024 13:37:25 GMT 1
Stop talking absolute shite. We've spent 22 seasons in 116 years in League One or the old money equivalent.Just shut up. Beat me to it mate, there's no way we're a league one side historically. Didn't the PL release something recently that showed we were 20th in success and our "rightful" place was the Prem. Personally I'd have us as midtable-to-top-6 of the championship as our place in the grand scheme of things. The amount of idiots that peddle this nonsense is unbelievable. And that's just our own supporters. |
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Post by rockwall on Mar 21, 2024 13:58:18 GMT 1
I'd argue that MOST of the reason our income being low is due to poor commercial performance, both historically and still now. As pointed out by Ben1987 earlier in the thread, in 2022 Bristol City and Towns matchday income was £5.2m, so actually the season card price makes no difference in that example, and Coventry and Blackburn actually had LOWER matchday income than Town, so again even though we are selling season cards lower than all 3 clubs mentioned we are actually making more money. Season card income for a club like Town isn't a big enough proportion of income to worry about. Adding an extra £50/£100 to the ticket price, but potentially losing a lot of sales wont make a big enough difference to make it worth while. We have to look at maximising income via other methods. To re-iterate again again, Bristol commercial income in 2022 was £15.8m, our was £4.1m. That's the reason why we are 'poor' in relation to our Championship rivals, not because we sell season cards at a reasonable price. it is part of it though, I am am not saying we make the tickets over priced far from it jsut that they need to be more than they are now having them range between £300 - £380 depending on the seat would make us still one of the cheapest around and a fair price. Putting them up to £380 - £450 for example I think despite it still being bang average pricing for Championship / L1 tickets is too much, the £250.00 is just too low. You are correct our commercial side is the part that needs most change and this is happening, but we need to gain income from all areas to make it work and seaosn tickets is one and hopefully the prices are not too high for the majority to afford. The thing about this is, upping ST prices doesn't mean you make more money. It's a huge risk because if the club lost 2-3 thousand ST holders due to prices, the ub may actually lose out. It would also affect sales in other areas. |
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Mar 21, 2024 14:14:12 GMT 1
it is part of it though, I am am not saying we make the tickets over priced far from it jsut that they need to be more than they are now having them range between £300 - £380 depending on the seat would make us still one of the cheapest around and a fair price. Putting them up to £380 - £450 for example I think despite it still being bang average pricing for Championship / L1 tickets is too much, the £250.00 is just too low. You are correct our commercial side is the part that needs most change and this is happening, but we need to gain income from all areas to make it work and seaosn tickets is one and hopefully the prices are not too high for the majority to afford. The thing about this is, upping ST prices doesn't mean you make more money. It's a huge risk because if the club lost 2-3 thousand ST holders due to prices, the ub may actually lose out. It would also affect sales in other areas. I promise you, you’re wasting your time mate. And I think I’d go as far to say that I think the club don’t quite get this either. The loss in footfall at the stadium will be greater than people think and with that you lose so much. Vibe, Feel, Atmosphere, Togetherness, Spirit etc. |
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Post by 2ellandback on Mar 21, 2024 14:22:00 GMT 1
The thing about this is, upping ST prices doesn't mean you make more money. It's a huge risk because if the club lost 2-3 thousand ST holders due to prices, the ub may actually lose out. It would also affect sales in other areas. I promise you, you’re wasting your time mate. And I think I’d go as far to say that I think the club don’t quite get this either. The loss in footfall at the stadium will be greater than people think and with that you lose so much. Vibe, Feel, Atmosphere, Togetherness, Spirit etc. And points. |
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 21, 2024 14:23:45 GMT 1
The thing about this is, upping ST prices doesn't mean you make more money. It's a huge risk because if the club lost 2-3 thousand ST holders due to prices, the ub may actually lose out. It would also affect sales in other areas. I promise you, you’re wasting your time mate. And I think I’d go as far to say that I think the club don’t quite get this either. The loss in footfall at the stadium will be greater than people think and with that you lose so much. Vibe, Feel, Atmosphere, Togetherness, Spirit etc. Not only that, but, as we've seen before, it will take years to get that back. |
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Post by willo on Mar 21, 2024 14:25:26 GMT 1
Stack em high, sell em low, has worked as a philosophy at our club for some time. Why change a system that works?
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 21, 2024 15:13:23 GMT 1
Stack em high, sell em low, has worked as a philosophy at our club for some time. Why change a system that works? Because those currently in charge of the club think they know better. That's fine, of course, they can do what they see fit. |
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dooky82
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Post by dooky82 on Mar 21, 2024 15:22:01 GMT 1
I don't think the overall price is the key factor to the total number of sales.
If a TV subscription service cost £240 up front, they would have many less customers compared to charging £20 a month.
An installments package with deposit up front would be the best course of action. Any increase would be much more easily absorbed by fans.
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 15:24:42 GMT 1
Bristol must have a hell of an accountant! LOL seriously..how do you explain that a club who sells a similar amount of season tickets but for vastly more money ( their cheapest is £125 more than ours!!) ,, and also has way more people paying on the door to get in to their games...somehow only has the same match day revenue as the other club? that doesnt strike you as odd in any way? Something that doesnt add up at all ? Youre not going to question Swiss rambles interpretation of those figures? |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 15:26:22 GMT 1
Thats just supporting this club isnt it? being bottom half of the 2nd tier is 'normal' when things are going relatively well...going right back to Micky Buxtons time when at the peak of it, we were also bottom half of the 2nd tier. I do think, maybe because weve now had a handful of seasons where its been better, that fans make out this is way much worse or even unacceptable than it actually is. You liken it to being kicked in the bollocks..like competing ( at the bottom end perhaps but competing still ) in the championship is somehow not what we should be doing..its beneath us in some way. I dont get why? This whole thread explains why it actually isnt beneath us...to get a championship size support through the door we have to have very cheap prices. If we didnt have those cheap prices, our support might look a lot more League 1 in size. If thats the case.. then this 'kicking in the bollocks' we're putting up with most seasons, is actually the club over-performing if anything! In the same way if Rotherham stayed up out of the bottom 2 tiers for 12 years, they'd be over-performing. Maybe I’ve misunderstood your post but are you comparing us with Rotherham? Average attendance about 10,000 between seasons 2021-2022 & 2022 - 2023. Highest attendance ever 25,170 Highest league position ever 3rd in the second division. Record transfer fee received £1.6 million……..for Danny Ward. Seasons in premier league/ first division 0 Seasons spent in championship/ second division 26 Seasons spent in division three 47 Seasons spent in division four 13. Certainly not in terms of history or size of support. But in terms of how much the fans contribute to the running of the club, then we arent worlds apart. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 15:31:53 GMT 1
Cant help but question these figures. Bristol city www.bcfc.co.uk/news/season-tickets-202324-faqs/Adults SCs range from £375 to £675 depending on the stand. pensioners range from £310 to £525 They have a similar amount of SC holders to us..less probably at 14000... meaning they have WAY MORE pay on the door fans..twice as many as us.. , Their average gate figure is over 3000 more than us at 22,500. www.footballwebpages.co.uk/championship/attendancesyet our match day revenue is the same?? How the fuck is that possible then!! Fuck my life 😂😂😂😂😂 Il ask you too ben..got an explanation?? fuck my life isnt an explanation. |
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Mar 21, 2024 15:49:05 GMT 1
Il ask you too ben..got an explanation?? fuck my life isnt an explanation. Play offs? |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 15:56:31 GMT 1
Il ask you too ben..got an explanation?? fuck my life isnt an explanation. Play offs? Could be if income from that is included in match day income. Not sure how much we made from that once the EFL and FA have had their cut but you'd think it would be a decent amount. Ok, that might have skewed the figures for that particular season... but lets not pretend that means our match day revenue is 'what it should be' for this division...unless were banking on getting to the play off final every year. |
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Post by Ginger Ogre on Mar 21, 2024 15:59:02 GMT 1
Bristol must have a hell of an accountant! LOL seriously..how do you explain that a club who sells a similar amount of season tickets but for vastly more money ( their cheapest is £125 more than ours!!) ,, and also has way more people paying on the door to get in to their games...somehow only has the same match day revenue as the other club? that doesnt strike you as odd in any way? Something that doesnt add up at all ? Youre not going to question Swiss rambles interpretation of those figures? Im not going to question it no, because I've verified it by looking at the accounts submitted by Bristol City. The figures are there, black and white on page page 20. Ticket Sales: £5,163,724 (or £5.2m rounded, as per Swiss Ramble) Towns for the same period (taken from the accounts submitted by HTFC) was £5,200,244. So Town actually brought in MORE than Bristol despite charging less. I think you are getting confused with the seasons the figures come from. The relate to the 2021/22 season. Town charged £329 for that season. Bristol ranged from £355 to £636. Average attendance at Town was 17,274 while Bristols was 19,196, so not as much of a difference as you might have thought. The figures are the figures. You can choose to accept them or you wont. Given they go against your narative then I suspect you wont accept them and suggest that Bristol accountant is up to something. Edit - Should say Town did reach the Play Offs that season so will have had the PO Semi included so we will be slightly 'topped up' by that. Not 100% if the Final will be in there or not. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Mar 21, 2024 16:00:42 GMT 1
Bristol must have a hell of an accountant! LOL seriously..how do you explain that a club who sells a similar amount of season tickets but for vastly more money ( their cheapest is £125 more than ours!!) ,, and also has way more people paying on the door to get in to their games...somehow only has the same match day revenue as the other club? that doesnt strike you as odd in any way? Something that doesnt add up at all ? Youre not going to question Swiss rambles interpretation of those figures? You do realise Swiss Ramble is literally taking the data from the accounts, submitted on companies house, that literally anyone can go on and see? |
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Mar 21, 2024 16:01:42 GMT 1
Could be if income from that is included in match day income. Not sure how much we made from that once the EFL and FA have had their cut but you'd think it would be a decent amount. Ok, that might have skewed the figures for that particular season... but lets not pretend that means our match day revenue is 'what it should be' for this division...unless were banking on getting to the play off final every year. Honestly slaps you’d give a fucking paracetamol a headache. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 16:06:06 GMT 1
Bristol must have a hell of an accountant! LOL seriously..how do you explain that a club who sells a similar amount of season tickets but for vastly more money ( their cheapest is £125 more than ours!!) ,, and also has way more people paying on the door to get in to their games...somehow only has the same match day revenue as the other club? that doesnt strike you as odd in any way? Something that doesnt add up at all ? Youre not going to question Swiss rambles interpretation of those figures? Im not going to question it no, because I've verified it by looking at the accounts submitted by Bristol City. The figures are there, black and white on page page 20. Ticket Sales: £5,163,724 (or £5.2m rounded, as per Swiss Ramble) Towns for the same period (taken from the accounts submitted by HTFC) was £5,200,244. So Town actually brought in MORE than Bristol despite charging less. I think you are getting confused with the seasons the figures come from. The relate to the 2021/22 season. Town charged £329 for that season. Bristol ranged from £355 to £636. Average attendance at Town was 17,274 while Bristols was 19,196, so not as much of a difference as you might have thought. The figures are the figures. You can choose to accept them or you wont. Given they go against your narative then I suspect you wont accept them and suggest that Bristol accountant is up to something. You sure? Ive been paying £249 for what seems like ages. Was £329 for new buyers after the early bird period? thats a really small percentage..the vast majority will have paid £249...half the average price at Bristol,,who still had 2000 more at each game. bens explanation probably make sense...the play offs adding to our total that season. But thats not normal! |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 16:08:16 GMT 1
Could be if income from that is included in match day income. Not sure how much we made from that once the EFL and FA have had their cut but you'd think it would be a decent amount. Ok, that might have skewed the figures for that particular season... but lets not pretend that means our match day revenue is 'what it should be' for this division...unless were banking on getting to the play off final every year. Honestly slaps you’d give a fucking paracetamol a headache. Christ im agreeing with you now and you're still not happy!!  Take the play off revenue away..is our match day income 'what you'd expect' for the 16th best supported club at this level..that was the claim. Well no, its not or anything like it. |
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Post by Ginger Ogre on Mar 21, 2024 16:17:48 GMT 1
Im not going to question it no, because I've verified it by looking at the accounts submitted by Bristol City. The figures are there, black and white on page page 20. Ticket Sales: £5,163,724 (or £5.2m rounded, as per Swiss Ramble) Towns for the same period (taken from the accounts submitted by HTFC) was £5,200,244. So Town actually brought in MORE than Bristol despite charging less. I think you are getting confused with the seasons the figures come from. The relate to the 2021/22 season. Town charged £329 for that season. Bristol ranged from £355 to £636. Average attendance at Town was 17,274 while Bristols was 19,196, so not as much of a difference as you might have thought. The figures are the figures. You can choose to accept them or you wont. Given they go against your narative then I suspect you wont accept them and suggest that Bristol accountant is up to something. You sure? Ive been paying £249 for what seems like ages. Was £329 for new buyers after the early bird period? thats a really small percentage..the vast majority will have paid £249...half the average price at Bristol,,who still had 2000 more at each game. bens explanation probably make sense...the play offs adding to our total that season. But thats not normal! £329 was all I could find online. You maybe right in that price was only for new holders. Either way the figures are the figures and cant be disputed. If the Play Offs are in there theb maybe an extra £500k higher than normal?! Not exactly a massive amount in football terms is it?! |
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Post by 2ellandback on Mar 21, 2024 16:27:18 GMT 1
You sure? Ive been paying £249 for what seems like ages. Was £329 for new buyers after the early bird period? thats a really small percentage..the vast majority will have paid £249...half the average price at Bristol,,who still had 2000 more at each game. bens explanation probably make sense...the play offs adding to our total that season. But thats not normal! £329 was all I could find online. You maybe right in that price was only for new holders. Either way the figures are the figures and cant be disputed. If the Play Offs are in there theb maybe an extra £500k higher than normal?! Not exactly a massive amount in football terms is it?! So charge less. Get more support. Good attendance gets you points. The points get you to the playoffs. The playoff money brings in more money than if you had charged a higher season ticket price. Easy. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 16:29:58 GMT 1
£329 was all I could find online. You maybe right in that price was only for new holders. Either way the figures are the figures and cant be disputed. If the Play Offs are in there theb maybe an extra £500k higher than normal?! Not exactly a massive amount in football terms is it?! So charge less. Get more support. Good attendance gets you points. The points get you to the playoffs. The playoff money brings in more money than if you had charged a higher season ticket price. Easy. Yeah, works at Bradford. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on Mar 21, 2024 16:33:10 GMT 1
So charge less. Get more support. Good attendance gets you points. The points get you to the playoffs. The playoff money brings in more money than if you had charged a higher season ticket price. Easy. Yeah, works at Bradford. Bradford will bounce back soon , far too big to be in div 4. Personally think they have under priced certain ST s down/across there. Didn’t they have kids tickets more or less free. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 16:35:00 GMT 1
You sure? Ive been paying £249 for what seems like ages. Was £329 for new buyers after the early bird period? thats a really small percentage..the vast majority will have paid £249...half the average price at Bristol,,who still had 2000 more at each game. bens explanation probably make sense...the play offs adding to our total that season. But thats not normal! £329 was all I could find online. You maybe right in that price was only for new holders. Either way the figures are the figures and cant be disputed. If the Play Offs are in there theb maybe an extra £500k higher than normal?! Not exactly a massive amount in football terms is it?! Must have been a fair chunk to make up the difference between what Bristol must have taken with their prices and support and what we took with ours...those are figures that also cant be disputed surely.. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 21, 2024 16:38:45 GMT 1
Bradford will bounce back soon , far too big to be in div 4. Personally think they have under priced certain ST s down/across there. Didn’t they have kids tickets more or less free. this is the point..the income they get from their fans isnt too big for div 4. It's probably pretty average for Div 4 in reality. One of my mates is a chicken and he doesnt even think the bigger crowds works in their favour. In his mind the game at valley parade is all the other teams cup final because of the stadium ( well half of it ) and the bigger crowd, and they raise their game accordingly. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on Mar 21, 2024 16:45:15 GMT 1
Bradford will bounce back soon , far too big to be in div 4. Personally think they have under priced certain ST s down/across there. Didn’t they have kids tickets more or less free. this is the point..the income they get from their fans isnt too big for div 4. It's probably pretty average for Div 4 in reality. One of my mates is a chicken and he doesnt even think the bigger crowds works in their favour. In his mind the game at valley parade is all the other teams cup final because of the stadium ( well half of it ) and the bigger crowd, and they raise their game accordingly. To be fair the tickets are that cheap at Bradford , no fucker turns up , because they don’t need to go often to get their moneys worth. So all the advantages of a big crowd disappear. Personally I think town should slowly raise prices, the club can raise year on year. A large rise in the current state would be disastrous. Some don’t see that , but each to their own. Some don’t see the advantages of the south stand , some folk don’t really care for atmospheres at games . We are all different. The club needs to tread very carefully in my opinion. As 4 Bradford have you been recently, the atmosphere is similar to what it used to be at town games before the south stand non existent, which is probably why it doesn’t make any difference. |
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Post by mosher on Mar 21, 2024 16:53:47 GMT 1
Bradford will bounce back soon , far too big to be in div 4. Personally think they have under priced certain ST s down/across there. Didn’t they have kids tickets more or less free. Not in the slightest, it's their traditional average position, top half 4th div, bottom half 3rd. 2 years in the Prem seem to have skewed EVERYONE'S view of them. Until fairly recently (60s 70s) they weren't even the biggest club in Bradford. |
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ben1987
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Post by ben1987 on Mar 21, 2024 16:58:12 GMT 1
Honestly slaps you’d give a fucking paracetamol a headache. Christ im agreeing with you now and you're still not happy!! Take the play off revenue away..is our match day income 'what you'd expect' for the 16th best supported club at this level..that was the claim. Well no, its not or anything like it. I’m not happy because you’re bloody hard work, Slapps. I provided links to Blackburn’s and Coventry’s accounts earlier in the thread, both of which show lower matchday revenue than Town for 2021/22 at £3.4 million and £4.3 million, respectively. Same goes for Preston at £3.0 million. So, even adjusted for our playoff run, matchday revenue, including revenue for season cards, seems to be one of the areas where we do quite well in relative terms. Bottom line: There’s little evidence in black and white to support the claim that our season card revenue is significantly lower than the clubs around us, despite cheaper prices — quite the opposite. There’s also little evidence to suggest that we *must* increase our prices to catch up — an assumption that has been repeated over and over with a vague reference to business principles, not actual figures. In fact, we seem to have stumbled upon quite an effective strategy to maximise our matchday revenue — revenue that is by no means guaranteed to rise or even stay the same if the strategy itself is abandoned. It’s almost like some people are making a weird moral case for higher prices regardless of the fact that they don’t necessarily deliver higher revenue or higher revenue that justifies the downsides. *We should pay more because everyone else does*. It’s not a good argument. Everyone says that Huddersfield isn’t a special case, but why not? Sometimes you don’t need to do what everyone else is doing. Sometimes everyone else needs to do what you’re doing. I think this is a good example — as Dean Hoyle always said. Lower pricing, higher volume, decent revenue, great atmosphere, positive vibes. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on Mar 21, 2024 17:00:52 GMT 1
Bradford will bounce back soon , far too big to be in div 4. Personally think they have under priced certain ST s down/across there. Didn’t they have kids tickets more or less free. Not in the slightest, it's their traditional average position, top half 4th div, bottom half 3rd. 2 years in the Prem seem to have skewed EVERYONE'S view of them. Until fairly recently (60s 70s) they weren't even the biggest club in Bradford. Grew up with an hatred of Bradford city even more than Leeds , but I’ve always felt their fan base is similar to ours. It’s all opinions but to me they have a fan base too big for that division. |
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Post by htafcokay on Mar 21, 2024 17:08:09 GMT 1
Not in the slightest, it's their traditional average position, top half 4th div, bottom half 3rd. 2 years in the Prem seem to have skewed EVERYONE'S view of them. Until fairly recently (60s 70s) they weren't even the biggest club in Bradford. , but I’ve always felt their fan base is similar to ours. It’s all opinions but to me they have a fan base too big for that division. Me too. Leeds never came into the equation until we started playing them again in 2007. |
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Post by Ginger Ogre on Mar 21, 2024 17:09:03 GMT 1
£329 was all I could find online. You maybe right in that price was only for new holders. Either way the figures are the figures and cant be disputed. If the Play Offs are in there theb maybe an extra £500k higher than normal?! Not exactly a massive amount in football terms is it?! Must have been a fair chunk to make up the difference between what Bristol must have taken with their prices and support and what we took with ours...those are figures that also cant be disputed surely.. I was meaning more that if we wanted to match Bristols income from ticket sales by putting our prices up. Is it worth potentially losing fans for the sake of £500k in revenue. What does that get you these days? A free transfer on 5k a week for 2 years maybe. Hardly going to turn us from strugglers to promotion favourites is it. You've then got to think of the byproducts of losing fans. Merch sales for one. Lose fans ans that amount likely goes down and any extra income you've raised in ticket sales dissappears. Knock on effect to atmosphere. I remember pre-Hoyke when prices were £300+ and atmosphere was awful. Ground half empty with 12k rattling around. Makes sense to keep it as full as possible and try generate a decent atmosphere in there which (may) helps the team succeed. Far too much to risk by increasing prices, with very little to gain IMO. |
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